If you look back at the real final (Semi final) Nadal vs Djokovic..

Bud

Bionic Poster
OP - when you can prove you've successfully coached an elite tennis player then come back and discuss like some sort of authority. What seems like a simple solution to all of us club players (who are probably just watching these matches on TV) may be magnitudes more complex in real life when dealing with the super talented.

I see people on here post things like... if Federer just took his backhand earlier, if he used a larger racquet, if he played more aggressive, if he came over the ball instead of slicing, if he approached the net more often... and on and on. They must think he and his coaches haven't considered all of those things - many times. It's obviously much more complex than we understand or give credit for.

A someone else stated you're oversimplifying this to the point of absurdity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb3TzqabOqE

3 minutes and 20 seconds, watch that point, basic volley, put it away. All he has to do.

Yeah, email that clip to Marian Vajda and give him your thoughts about how his world class player can consistently beat Nadal on clay.
 
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You are oversimplifying things to the point of ridiculousness. Answer to every question you asked or may ask can probably be found in posts by various ppl in this thread. I'm out.

Funny that, in my eyes, it's you who is the one that is oversimplifying things.

"Novak vollies are weak, Novak doesn't have it in him, he's a baseliner by nature"
 
OP - when you can prove you've successfully coached an elite tennis player then come back and discuss like some sort of authority. What seems like a simple solution to all of us club players (who are probably just watching these matches on TV) may be magnitudes more complex in real life when dealing with the super talented.

I see people on here post things like... if Federer just took his backhand earlier, if he used a larger racquet, if he played more aggressive, if he came over the ball instead of slicing, if he approached the net more often... and on and on. They must think he and his coaches haven't considered all of those things - many times. It's obviously much more complex than we understand or give credit for.

First of all; don't include "us", I'm no club player. lol

Second of all; I am not saying it's a simple solution, but trust me, some of the moments during semi final where Nadal was scooping balls into play, it was dying for Nole to come in and play a volley.

Third of all; I don't think you need to have coached an elite tennis player to be able to notice a tactical flaw in the makeup of a player on a particular surface.

Fourth of all; I never called it a complete solution, but it def COULD BE the difference if you consider how close it was on Friday.

Fifth and finally; Thank you for making a well thought out post for once.
 
Yeah, email that clip to Marian Vajda and give him your thoughts about how his world class player can consistently beat Nadal on clay.

Forget that, go to 3 minutes and 20 seconds on that clip and explain to me why Nadal didn't make a backhand passing shot down the line over the higher part of the net?

How many passing shots does Nadal make in defensive positions while seemingly stretched out wide?

I'm curious, since you think Nadal virtually hits a passing winner off anything. Why couldn't he do it on his backhand here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb3TzqabOqE 3 minutes 20.... explain?

I'm not saying he'd beat Nadal with this implementation when having Nadal on the extreme run, far from, but it would certainly serve him a more realistic chance of winning.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
Forget that, go to 3 minutes and 20 seconds on that clip and explain to me why Nadal didn't make a backhand passing shot down the line over the higher part of the net?



I'm curious, since you think Nadal virtually hits a passing winner off anything. Why couldn't he do it on his backhand here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb3TzqabOqE 3 minutes 20.... explain?

I'm not saying he'd beat Nadal with this implementation when having Nadal on the extreme run, far from, but it would certainly serve him a more realistic chance of winning.

That was ONE point! they played over 300 points in the match IIRC. You can't repeat a shot like that point after point after point. You'd never lose a match. The point is - if the approach isn't that good (as the ONE point you found), Nadal has a good chance of passing you as shown in the Llodra video. Most elite baseliners would prefer to take their chances at the baseline and come in when their opponent is in real trouble.

Do you really think Djokovic's team hasn't analyzed the hell out of Nadal's CC match videos in order to gain some advantage? I just found it amusing you present it as such a simply solved issue and the key to Djokovic's clay court success.

BTW, he had a GREAT chance of winning (just like Nadal at the AO2012) but he blew it from a loss of concentration. He flubbed a number of important overheads, ran into the net on an important point and then completely went AWOL when he was serving to even the match at 7-8 in the last set. It was almost like he just gave in.
 
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powerangle

Legend
Bro, bro, bro... I am not saying come in off any old approach shot, or even look to hit an approach shot to come in off, I am saying if you as Novak Djokovic hit a good bloody shot, a really good shot, that no one except Nadal with his reverse forehand and ability move on a claycourt, can get to... then you move forward and cut off the ball that naturally will take a lot of time to get over the net. Right?

I am not saying run in off a bloody approach shot, or anything mildly attacking, but if Nadal is having to run from the right to the left side of the court to track down a well struck groundstroke, does Nadal really have the room and time to work with to get there in time to set himself (Whilst also considering where Djokovic is standing) for an amazing passing shot low over the high part of the net? Simple answer, no.

Actually, yes. Have you seen Nadal slap shot blazing forehand passing shot winners (down the line, over the high part of the net)? He did that more than once in the fifth set. Yes, Novak can come in off aggressive and well-placed groundies...but Rafa always has the option of smacking one of his banana boomerang shots down the line (if he sees Novak coming into the net from the corner of his eyes). Not that easy to repeat for Rafa, you say? Well then it's not easy for Novak to repeatedly come into the net even off well-placed groundies because Rafa's balls LOOP heavily into the court. It's not that easy for Novak, who has more suspect net play and volleys, to handle all the RPMs off Rafa's heavy loopers. Sure, Novak will win some extra points, but he will lose some too. In the end, could it make the difference between a win and a loss? Maybe, maybe not. It could cause him to lose some otherwise winnable match as well.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
Here.. watch the point at 40 seconds

Then watch at 3:20

Then 4:42

Nadal v. Agassi Wimbledon 2006

That's what happens when your approach is excellent but not brilliant. We've seen it time after time in Nadal matches.
 
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You'll know Djokovic is very close to being more than capable of beating Nadal on clay.

Yes, now this isn't refering to the 9-7 in the fifth and entirely refering to Novak's tactics. Nadal clearly keeps the rally alive when completely on the backfoot by whipping the ball back into court with depth and neutralising Novak's attacking or well angled shots, a lot of the time it means Novak is almost having to hit 3 or 4 or even 5 winning shots as he would do on any other surface, just to win the point eventually. His life would become so much more easier if he anticipated how much Rafa is going to be struggling for pace when tracking the ball down. If he knows Nadal is going to be really on the backfoot and only manage to just about whip the ball back, he should immediately ghost into the net and look for the very easy volley into the open space. Why Novak barely ever did this during the match was beyond me.

Now I know many of you, no all of you are thinking, well it didn't work for him at 4-3 up with the break, deuce. You're probably also going to say Novak's volleying isn't good enough to cope with Rafa's passing shots. I think that's all BS and I'll tell you why. Novak was literally almost FORCED into coming into the net on that occasion, he didn't look for it. Ultimately the tactic of standing just inside the baseline and dictating from Nadal's lunging retrieves was always a recipe for diaster when playing the best mover on a claycourt of all time that adopts a reverse forehand technique and uses strings that allow him to scoop up almost anything to then put some pace on the ball. Nadal is literally so far out of court and so far behind play that Novak could produce club standard vollies and still win the point if he just came into the net.

I really have no idea why his team hasn't spoken to him about this, ofcourse he may get away with it on a hardcourt and especially on grass as the ball keeps low on grass but on a bloody claycourt? Come on, it makes absolutely no sense to hit a shot that virtually causes your opponent to end up in the crowd after sliding and wait for the get standing at the baseline. You could hop into the net and volley into the open space, it's brainless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F76qLe9Qel8

I found this footage, Murray playing Nadal at Monte Carlo in 2011, he actually had some success closing off the net.

Ofcourse Djokovic does not have Murray's touch and feel at the net and that's why Murray beat him at the US Open with the windy conditions, but some of the shots Djokovic was making Nadal lunge for clearly meant all he needed to do was run into the net and put away a simple volley.

Easy to say, hard to implement. Even Rafa does not approach the net when having Novak on the run and Novak can neutralize the point with this defense. Sure, it is easier to say that they should approach the net, but when they are facing each other, they know that they are facing the player with the best passing shots in the game...who can easily leave you like a fool on the net. And given their high intensity points with long rallies and numerous breaks, they usually tend to err on the side of caution.

Plus, as a player myself, I know how damn tough it is to approach the net when you are involved in a baseline battle. First, if you want to approach the net, you have to be very quick...sort of you have to be on the run (forward) during your shot itself (in which case you'll not get enough power so you have to be absolutely precise or else the opponent will pass you with ease). If you do decide to hit the shot with full power (like these players do) then you can not recover quickly from your follow through to approach the net fast enough. One of the reason these two float the ball high into the middle of the court is 'coz they know their opponent is pinned on the baseline (when the opponent is on the net, they prefer passing shots even when on the defense...and they can hit 'em!).

While it is indeed right they can approach the net, it is much harder than it appears for all these variety of reasons.
 
Here.. watch the point at 40 seconds

Then watch at 3:20

Then 4:42

Nadal v. Agassi Wimbledon 2006

That's what happens when your approach is excellent but not brilliant. We've seen it time after time in Nadal matches.

You still don't understand *facepalm* I am not talking about approach shots, I am talking about when you so happen to have hit a really well struck and well angled shot to the extent of which the gap between Nadal and the tramlines is about 5 feet+ in width. All he is left with is either to hit a lob, a very low percentage passing shot over the higher part of the net OR a shot with lots of net clearance aimed to land deep in the court. < The third stated option is probably the one he is going to go for the most and if he goes for lob, then let's see if he beats you and if he goes for the passing shot, then let's see if he makes that. These are low percentage plays which even Nadal wouldn't make. I am talking about really hard to hit passing shots, there's no doubting Rafa is great on the run, but I am really stressing this now, we're talking Rafa extremely on the backfoot.

You're looking at player's planning to come into the net with approach shots, that is not what I am talking about at all. I am talking about when it is practically stupid for you not to close down the net for a volley which for professional tennis players is bloody elementary.

If you can't picture the image I've drawn up and differentiate it from player's looking for opportunities to attack the net, then I genuinely give up. You can keep thinking I mean why doesn't he attack the net and make vollies like M, Llodra, F, Lopez and L, Paes. lol
 
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Bud

Bionic Poster
You still don't understand *facepalm* I am not talking about approach shots, I am talking about when you so happen to have hit a really well struck and well angled shot to the extent of which the gap between Nadal and the tramlines is about 5 feet+ in width. All he is left with is either to hit a lob, a very low percentage passing shot over the higher part of the net OR a shot with lots of net clearance aimed to land deep in the court.

You're looking at player's planning to come into the net with approach shots, that is not what I am talking about at all. I am talking about when it is practically stupid for you not to close down the net for a volley which for professional tennis players is bloody elementary.

If you can't picture the image I've drawn up and differentiate between player's looking for opportunities to attack the net, then I genuinely give up. You can keep thinking I mean why doesn't he attack the net and make vollies like M, Llodra, F, Lopez and L, Paes. lol

OK, got it. You want Djokovic to hit amazing/accidental shot after amazing/accidental shot.. recognize that instantly and then come in for the easy volley. Sure that'll work for him and win him matches. You can NOT be serious!

Most players have an inkling when they want to approach and will intentionally hit an angle or add pace/spin, etc. They don't simply hit an accidentally awesome shot and say to themselves.. gee that looks good enough to approach on for an easy volley.

What you are suggesting is not repeatable and/or reliable throughout a match.
 
Here.. watch the point at 40 seconds

Then watch at 3:20

Then 4:42

Nadal v. Agassi Wimbledon 2006

That's what happens when your approach is excellent but not brilliant. We've seen it time after time in Nadal matches.

I often wonder if volleying would be more possible if players slowed the pace of the ball down, so they could get into position better. Obviously there is a downside to that.
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
I often wonder if volleying would be more possible if players slowed the pace of the ball down, so they could get into position better. Obviously there is a downside to that.

Yes, a good approach shot gives you time to get in and set yourself. If you rocket a ball hard and flat, the opponent can use that pace to redirect back at you robbing you of approach time. They catch you in no man's land and those are really tough volleys.

As a slow, lowly club player... when I serve and volley it is with a loopy kick serve to the BH side. If I approach during a rally, I loop the ball deep with lots of spin (for me) .. lol That gives me time to get in, set myself and then respond to their shot.
 

TaihtDuhShaat

Semi-Pro
FWIW I agree with the OP. A simple follow-in to net on several occasions where Nadal was completely off the court would've been easy put-aways for Novak.
 
OK, got it. You want Djokovic to hit amazing/accidental shot after amazing/accidental shot.. recognize that instantly and then come in for the easy volley. Sure that'll work for him and win him matches. You can NOT be serious!

Most players have an inkling when they want to approach and will intentionally hit an angle or add pace/spin, etc. They don't simply hit an accidentally awesome shot and say to themselves.. gee that looks good enough to approach on for an easy volley.

What you are suggesting is not repeatable and/or reliable throughout a match.

Okay.

Let me draw it out for you. You're Djokovic, a baseliner and you're going toe to toe with Nadal, you get really well prepared for one shot with your footwork and you connect well with a nice angled shot that draws that Nadal ridiculously out wide, you can see him chasing the ball down and on the verge of lunging, if you aren't ********, it's clear for you to tell he is then going to scoop the ball back (But with net clearance, a lot of air and depth)? Correct? 80% of the time he will do this. You are ofcourse aware if you come in there is a slim possibility he may make a wonderous passing shot over the very corner of the net (Which is the highest part of net) but you know your chances are good. What do you do?

You see, on toomany occasions Djokovic had this play and especially when Nadal was chasing the ball down on his backhand (Less effective) wing. Novak just stood in between the baseline and service box though and simply waited to hit yet another groundstroke though...? Whyyyy? Why would you be so stupid? Nadal is barely getting to the groundstrokes and is trying to neutralise and reset the play. What ended up happening each time was Djokovic would retreat backwards due to Nadal great length on the defence. Eventually Nadal gets the ball onto his forehand and does his usual dictatorship forehand routine which eventually wins him the point. So Novak's initial good work to work himself into being able to hit a good shot that had Rafa genuinely really scrambling counted for jack because Rafa just chased it down, got good length and brought the rally onto an even keel. Djokovic should not be allowing that to happen.
 

Grigollif1

Semi-Pro
Okay.

Let me draw it out for you. You're Djokovic, a baseliner and you're going toe to toe with Nadal, you get really well prepared for one shot with your footwork and you connect well with a nice angled shot that draws that Nadal ridiculously out wide, you can see him chasing the ball down and on the verge of lunging, if you aren't ********, it's clear for you to tell he is then going to scoop the ball back (But with net clearance, a lot of air and depth)? Correct? 80% of the time he will do this. You are ofcourse aware if you come in there is a slim possibility he may make a wonderous passing shot over the very corner of the net (Which is the highest part of net) but you know your chances are good. What do you do?

You see, on toomany occasions Djokovic had this play and especially when Nadal was chasing the ball down on his backhand (Less effective) wing. Novak just stood in between the baseline and service box though and simply waited to hit yet another groundstroke though...? Whyyyy? Why would you be so stupid? Nadal is barely getting to the groundstrokes and is trying to neutralise and reset the play. What ended up happening each time was Djokovic would retreat backwards due to Nadal great length on the defence. Eventually Nadal gets the ball onto his forehand and does his usual dictatorship forehand routine which eventually wins him the point. So Novak's initial good work to work himself into being able to hit a good shot that had Rafa genuinely really scrambling counted for jack because Rafa just chased it down, got good length and brought the rally onto an even keel. Djokovic should not be allowing that to happen.


I see what you are saying, I just feel that Djokovic feels more comfortable finishing these points from the baseline as he usually does and has had considerable success on clay against Nadal for it. Although Nadal does sometimes wins some important and amazing points from extreme defensive positions, like he did at RG.

What you are saying is a good option, but it poses 2 variables. Djokovic would need to hit pretty descent volleys to finish everytime, anything with air in it or not just right to close the point, Nadal will be reaching it.

Second is that after a while, Nadal will realize that Djokovic is coming more in to finish off points and will adjust automatically going for lower balls and force Djokovic to hit a more forceful volleys or he will go for lobs which he is great at. So is a question of % Is it better to finish off this points from the baseline or the net. Djokovic has a massive forehand and a very efficient closing backhand, he has had more success than anyone finishing points on clay from the baseline against Nadal, would the % be higher on the net? I am not sure.

Anyway, nothing groundbreaking about it and I certainly think that Djokovic and his camp discuss these options of coming in more is a strategic tool for any player.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Not another poster who knows more than the professional coaches do. We have heard this same BS for years now. These guys are playing for millions of dollars but the experts here know more than they do on the best tactics to win, LOL
 

RF_fan

Semi-Pro
I think the problem is knowing when to come to the net. We've seen it many times when Federer hits an amazing shot vs. Nadal, comes in, and then gets easily passed from way outside the baseline. Those approach shots that work against most players do not work against Nadal.
 
And for someone who isn't used to volleying or has questionable overheads, losing one of those points where you follow a shot to the net really discourages them from trying for more.
 

cucio

Legend
it's clear for you to tell he is then going to scoop the ball back (But with net clearance, a lot of air and depth)? Correct? 80% of the time he will do this. You are ofcourse aware if you come in there is a slim possibility he may make a wonderous passing shot over the very corner of the net (Which is the highest part of net) but you know your chances are good. What do you do?

This is where I think your argument is weak. The problem with Nadal is that he is so stupidly good hitting on the run that he can produce both options very consistently: the long, defensive topspin moonball or the short, open-faced flick that crosses the net two inches over the netcord. If Djokovic started to rush the net more often Nadal would adjust and counter with the second alternative more consistently, as he does against S&V types.

Anyway, it is pretty funny how you go all ad hominem and hold your opinion so high above that of club players but don't see the same gap between yours and world-class coaches. :mrgreen:
 
This is where I think your argument is weak. The problem with Nadal is that he is so stupidly good hitting on the run that he can produce both options very consistently: the long, defensive topspin moonball or the short, open-faced flick that crosses the net two inches over the netcord. If Djokovic started to rush the net more often Nadal would adjust and counter with the second alternative more consistently, as he does against S&V types.

Anyway, it is pretty funny how you go all ad hominem and hold your opinion so high above that of club players but don't see the same gap between yours and world-class coaches. :mrgreen:

I am not talking about rushing to the net when he has Nadal on the run, or struggling to get the ball back, I am talking when it is glaringly obvious that he is NOT going to hit a passing shot winner. I am talking when Nadal is not even facing the direction of his opponents court and has to loft the ball up high and slow in order to get it back. Often Novak would just stand mid-court, with an open forehand stance and wait. (On many of these occasions)
 
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Not another poster who knows more than the professional coaches do. We have heard this same BS for years now. These guys are playing for millions of dollars but the experts here know more than they do on the best tactics to win, LOL

Problem is, you're are the product of the narrow minded poster on this board, the one that needs a John Mcenroe behind a pundit team desk shouting odds about what Novak needs to do before you take any notice? Oh yes, John knows, thumbs up. Commercialised muppet. Shut up.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Problem is, you're are the product of the narrow minded poster on this board, the one that needs a John Mcenroe behind a pundit team desk shouting odds about what Novak needs to do before you take any notice? Oh yes, John knows, thumbs up. Commercialised muppet. Shut up.

I know and you are the genius who is really some hack, but know more than the pro players and coaches. To funny but you are not the first to come up with this how easy it could be to beat rafa theory. We have heard it many times in the past but go ahead because you are the maestro.
 
I know and you are the genius who is really some hack, but know more than the pro players and coaches. To funny but you are not the first to come up with this how easy it could be to beat rafa theory. We have heard it many times in the past but go ahead because you are the maestro.

Too*

I'm some hack? Okay. You haven't heard jack, you're just jumping onto the bandwagon that Novak can't volley like Pat Rafter, which he doesn't need to for the occasions I feel he should come to net on. Keep baa'ing.

I can guarantee his team spoke about this with Novak in the past but didn't want to tinker with any stratergy as it's been doing him fine against Rafa considering his dominance looking at the h2h and his win in Monte Carlo.

If it's not broken, why try and fix it. Well now they know it is broken on clay, I don't care how close he came to winning in the end, it's someting he should look at.

Forget me, forget whether I am right or not, this isn't about me, it's about Novak's tactics. Just think to yourself what point lost Djokovic the match in the end? The foul at the net, right? It was his unwillingness to come to the net, when he was finally made to come in, it was so forced that he ended up being caught in two minds and went for the delicate volley. If he was more open minded to the possibility of coming in if need be, he would never have put himself in that position to foul at the net. He would have smashed the ball into the ground and won the point, most likely held and most likely won the match with the French Open.

It's those tiny things that make the difference sometimes.
 
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2ndServe

Hall of Fame
another problem is the footwork of the modern strokes. It allows for great recovery side to side but it does not help you get those precious few steps towards the net. You need to be pretty close to the net to get a proper angle and penetration to hit a winning volley against Nadal. Novak looks very uncomfortable at the net, volleying against the best passer I've ever seen is a lot harder for a normal net player but for a bad one it's nearly impossible.
 

Gandalf

Rookie
I am talking when it is glaringly obvious that he is NOT going to hit a passing shot winner.

Get it through your head already. It's obvious to YOU as a viewer. It may be obvious for Roger or Haas as a player. It is NOT part of Novaks game, he is not comfortable doing it and he would rather go for a winner with a ground stroke from a service line.

And one other thing. One does not magically appear at the net. Even though approach may last less than a second, it is something that is planned. You hit a particular groundstroke when the opportunity seems right with INTENTION to go forward. Novak's attack is great, his net game is not. He is not comfortable with it. Plans can also change, not happy with your forehand after which you planned to go forward, you don't go to the net, and stay back. He stays back more often than not. It's his game.

Unless you are talking about Nadal so hopeless after attack that a 12yo girl could easily run or even walk to the net and put the ball away, you are right. But that's an even more obvious thing than 'the sky is blue'.
 
Okay.

Let me draw it out for you. You're Djokovic, a baseliner and you're going toe to toe with Nadal, you get really well prepared for one shot with your footwork and you connect well with a nice angled shot that draws that Nadal ridiculously out wide, you can see him chasing the ball down and on the verge of lunging, if you aren't ********, it's clear for you to tell he is then going to scoop the ball back (But with net clearance, a lot of air and depth)? Correct? 80% of the time he will do this. You are ofcourse aware if you come in there is a slim possibility he may make a wonderous passing shot over the very corner of the net (Which is the highest part of net) but you know your chances are good. What do you do?

You see, on toomany occasions Djokovic had this play and especially when Nadal was chasing the ball down on his backhand (Less effective) wing. Novak just stood in between the baseline and service box though and simply waited to hit yet another groundstroke though...? Whyyyy? Why would you be so stupid? Nadal is barely getting to the groundstrokes and is trying to neutralise and reset the play. What ended up happening each time was Djokovic would retreat backwards due to Nadal great length on the defence. Eventually Nadal gets the ball onto his forehand and does his usual dictatorship forehand routine which eventually wins him the point. So Novak's initial good work to work himself into being able to hit a good shot that had Rafa genuinely really scrambling counted for jack because Rafa just chased it down, got good length and brought the rally onto an even keel. Djokovic should not be allowing that to happen.

It's soooo easy for somebody on their computers typing from their grandmothers basement, huh Maestro. What is your World ranking again ? :shock:
 
It's soooo easy for somebody on their computers typing from their grandmothers basement, huh Maestro. What is your World ranking again ? :shock:

I was quite a good player actually, had a flirt with the futures tour during my teens. Currently mid 20s and working as a personal trainer, still play though, even get paid by dad's of young, up and coming 14-16 boys to hit with their son's for an hour or so. I was thinking of going into tennis coaching but didn't get around to it in the end.
 
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...but wait, I need to have been an ex top 50 seasoned pro to have any sort of say on this matter, right?

Yet you morons can discuss and debate who's the GOAT tennis player? GET OUTTA HERE. lol Stupid. Only when it suits you guys.
 
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Gandalf

Rookie
...but wait, I need to have been an ex top 50 seasoned pro to have any sort of say on this matter, right?

Oh now you're just being mean. Everyone is allowed to have a say in any matter. Problem is that the 'say' is usually not thought through and stupid.
 
The "occasion" is what let Djokovic stretch it to a 5th set. When Nadal was serving for the match in 4th set he got nervous and played ultra passive after the first couple of points of that game. But we are EXTREMELY lucky that it happened, because this is the best 5th set I've ever seen. And when Nadal reflects on this match he'll realize that it would have been awful if he won in 4 sets, because winning in 5 is better (especially after being down 2-4) because it the mental anguish he made Djokovic feel may ruin Djokovic's career from this point forward.

See, this a killer blow that will never be forgotten. Djokovic was playing his deceased surrogate grandmother. She actually asked him to bring her Roland Garros. Nadal made Djokovic feel like he should have won (up 4-2 and on a roll) and hit a barrage of winners to steal the glory (and break the promise Djokovic made to his surrogate grandmother/coach). A loss doesn't get any more intense than this.
 
The "occasion" is what let Djokovic stretch it to a 5th set. When Nadal was serving for the match in 4th set he got nervous and played ultra passive after the first couple of points of that game. But we are EXTREMELY lucky that it happened, because this is the best 5th set I've ever seen. And when Nadal reflects on this match he'll realize that it would have been awful if he won in 4 sets, because winning in 5 is better (especially after being down 2-4) because it the mental anguish he made Djokovic feel may ruin Djokovic's career from this point forward.

See, this a killer blow that will never be forgotten. Djokovic was playing his deceased surrogate grandmother. She actually asked him to bring her Roland Garros. Nadal made Djokovic feel like he should have won (up 4-2 and on a roll) and hit a barrage of winners to steal the glory (and break the promise Djokovic made to his surrogate grandmother/coach). A loss doesn't get any more intense than this.

This is the most garbage post I have ever read and doesn't belong in this thread, A) because it's not relevant to the topic and B) is a load nonsense waffle.
 

cucio

Legend
...but wait, I need to have been an ex top 50 seasoned pro to have any sort of say on this matter, right?

Yet you morons can discuss and debate who's the GOAT tennis player? GET OUTTA HERE. lol Stupid. Only when it suits you guys.

It's you the one who has pulled the ad hominem card first in this thread, it's only normal you get it used against you as well. If insulting and derogatory remarks is how you handle criticism and support your arguments it's just as well you have not taken up coaching, not many parents would put up with that shiet.

What Gandalf says. If you are going to attack the net you normally decide it the moment you get an easy ball to blast something difficult to return, there's not much time for second options. That or you are a top notch net player confident on your ability to handle whatever strong groundies are coming back (Federer, Haas, Stepanek...) so you can get by with just a mediocre approach.

Against any of the current top 5, all of whom have ridiculous defensive skills, it has to be extremely difficult to be sure in advance of your approach shot not going to come back at you with interest.

The flaw in your argument, as Gandalf points out, is that it is after the fact. How can Nole be sure that his shot is going to be that good that Nadal can't get back anything else than a floater? There is a good chance that if he starts to go to the net more he might get burned more often than not.

See what happened to Federer in Rome: since he could not expect to win from the baseline he gambled on all out aggression and he lost badly.

However, Djokovic has very good chances of winning a baseline contest against Rafa if he sticks to his regular game, he just has to play to his strengths and hope he has a more ridiculous day than the Spaniard, at this moment they seem to be so close that it is really a toss up. Upsetting that balance trying to introduce new elements like the one you propose might give him the edge, or might make him second guess his instincts and throw off his game. I don't think the gamble is worth it.
 
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What Gandalf says. If you are going to attack the net you normally decide it the moment you get an easy ball to blast something difficult to return, there's not much time for second options. That or you are a top notch net player confident on your ability to handle whatever strong groundies are coming back (Federer, Haas, Stepanek...) so you can get by with just a mediocre approach.

See this is where I disagree. On the faster surfaces, I agree, but with regard to the slower ones it doesn't HAVE TO be contrived. After you strike the ball, if you can see the opponent is ill-positioned to get anything meaningful on the ball and is already on the backfoot you can keep it in mind to "potentially" come in. Once your opponent is there, IF you see him make contact in a very defensive and air ball way, you can run into the net as the ball is coming over and hit the fairly easy volley as you are running in. (And your opponent is too far outwide to recover court position)

The flaw in your argument, as Gandalf points out, is that it is after the fact. How can Nole be sure that his shot is going to be that good that Nadal can't get back anything else than a floater? There is a good chance that if he starts to go to the net more he might get burned more often than not.

Him and his coaching team need to sit down and discuss this. Nadal is naturally less likely to hit as good a passing shot on his backhand side from a ridiculously difficult angle, as he has two hands on the racquet. There is also a method of reading what is within your opponent's athletic capabilities, this can be done by looking at tendancies and just the experience of playing him on that surface. You almost develop this instinctive understanding for how the player is going to fare. Naturally you leave youself open to these "moments" Nadal has, these "moments of inspiration" where he produces ridiuculousness, in that instance you just have to stay, too good. It is better than hitting 2 to 3 really well struck with angle placement shots and then stand mid-court to hit another well struck shot, over and over, until eventually your shot isn't well struck and well placed enough for Nadal not to regain neutral ownership of the point. Next thing you know Nadal is "ugh, ugh, ugh" dictating with his forehand once again. That can really break you down.
 
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MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
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See this is where I disagree. On the faster surfaces, I agree, but with regard to the slower ones it doesn't HAVE TO be contrived. After you strike the ball, if you can see the opponent is ill-positioned to get anything meaningful on the ball and is already on the backfoot you can keep it in mind to "potentially" come in. Once your opponent is there, IF you see him make contact in a very defensive and air ball way, you can run into the net as the ball is coming over and hit the fairly easy volley as you are running in. (And your opponent is too far outwide to recover court position)



Him and his coaching team need to sit down and discuss this. Nadal is naturally less likely to hit as good a passing shot on his backhand side from a ridiculously difficult angle, as he has two hands on the racquet. There is also a method of reading what is within your opponent's athletic capabilities, this can be done by looking at tendancies and just the experience of playing him on that surface. You almost develop this instinctive understanding for how the player is going to fare. Naturally you leave youself open to these "moments" Nadal has, these "moments of inspiration" where he produces ridiuculousness, in that instance you just have to say, too good. It is better than hitting 2 to 3 really well struck with angle placement shots and then stand mid-court to hit another well struck shot, over and over, until eventually your shot isn't well struck and well placed enough for Nadal to not regain neutral ownership of the point. Next thing you know Nadal is "ugh, ugh, ugh" dictating with his forehand once again. That can really break you down.

forehand-slice-tennis.jpg
 

TheF1Bob

Banned
The "occasion" is what let Djokovic stretch it to a 5th set. When Nadal was serving for the match in 4th set he got nervous and played ultra passive after the first couple of points of that game. But we are EXTREMELY lucky that it happened, because this is the best 5th set I've ever seen. And when Nadal reflects on this match he'll realize that it would have been awful if he won in 4 sets, because winning in 5 is better (especially after being down 2-4) because it the mental anguish he made Djokovic feel may ruin Djokovic's career from this point forward.

See, this a killer blow that will never be forgotten. Djokovic was playing his deceased surrogate grandmother. She actually asked him to bring her Roland Garros. Nadal made Djokovic feel like he should have won (up 4-2 and on a roll) and hit a barrage of winners to steal the glory (and break the promise Djokovic made to his surrogate grandmother/coach). A loss doesn't get any more intense than this.

HAHA what a load of waffle. Novak screwed himself, Nadal just watched.

Fact. 8)
 
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