If you take Djokovic's career alone versus everyone elses clay career in history, where does he rank?

[Tenacity]

Do you realize how bad you make our fanbase look when you post absurd stuff like this?

No, that is part of the issue, there's so many VamosPlayanas that think like that.

Imagine saying Nadal>Djokovic on HC
O m g

 

[Herald]

Just winning a single RG puts you above countless players who did not. He won 2. Beat Nadal twice. Not to mention his finals, Masters, and friends along the way

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

Open Era: Nadal, Borg (32 Clay titles and 23 needed a Bo5 Final), Vilas (won 49 clay titles and 28 required a Bo5 Final, won slams in both Red and Green Clay), Lendl (28 Clay titles and 16 required Bo5 Final), Kuerten, Wilander and Muster (40 Clay titles and 12 needed a Bo5 final) are up there.

Pre-Open Era: Rosewall won 6 Clay Slams (GS plus Pro Slams), Cochet, Lacoste, Tilden, Drobny, and Wilding are all in the mix.

 

[Topspin_80]

She thinks Nadal>Djokovic on hardcourt overall, read her previous posts in this thread.

You have reading problems, she didn't say Nadal>Djokovic on HC overall, she said Nadal better than Djokovic at the USO, Canadian open,
and also at the Olympic games.

It's that so difficult for you to understand?

 

[Topspin_80]

Open Era: Nadal, Borg (32 Clay titles and 23 needed a Bo5 Final), Vilas (won 49 clay titles and 28 required a Bo5 Final, won slams in both Red and Green Clay), Lendl (28 Clay titles and 16 required Bo5 Final), Kuerten, Wilander and Muster (40 Clay titles and 12 needed a Bo5 final) are up there.

Pre-Open Era: Rosewall won 6 Clay Slams (GS plus Pro Slams), Cochet, Lacoste, Tilden, Drobny, and Wilding are all in the mix.

I'd add Santana and Pietrangeli, in the pre-open era.

 

[Topspin_80]

#1 Nadal

#2 Borg

#3 Lendl

#4 Kuerten

#5 Vilas

#6 Djokovic

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

#1 Nadal

#2 Borg

#3 Lendl

#4 Kuerten

#5 Vilas

#6 Djokovic

Put Mats instead of Vilas and I would agree.

 

[clayqueen]

You think Nadal is the greater HC player despite Djokovic having twice as many slams as him? Have you gone completely insane?!

I don’t buy into hyperbole and myths. Djokovic didn’t have a break point in the USO 2021 Final against Medvedev and was beaten in straight sets when he was playing for an historical record on hard surface on which he is supposed to be the King. What does that tell you?

 

[clayqueen]

.

 

[clayqueen]

Do you realize how bad you make our fanbase look when you post absurd stuff like this?

I don't care how bad I look to anyone; I make up my own mind.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I don’t buy into hyperbole and myths. Djokovic didn’t have a break point in the USO 2021 Final against Medvedev and was beaten in straight sets when he was playing for an historical record on hard surface on which he is supposed to be the King. What does that tell you?

Lol. So he chokes in one match (while confronted with a historical chance Rafa never came close to accomplish so we don’t know how he would have fared in that same situation) and this outweighs all the accomplishments he has over Rafa on HC?? I hope you are joking because nobody can seriously claim Rafa > Novak on HC, especially not with such an “argument”.

 

[clayqueen]

Lol. So he chokes in one match (while confronted with a historical chance Rafa never came close to accomplish so we don’t know how he would have fared in that same situation) and this outweighs all the accomplishments he has over Rafa on HC?? I hope you are joking because nobody can seriously claim Rafa > Novak on HC, especially not with such an “argument”.

I am serious. Djokovic took 6 hours to beat Rafa in Australia in 2012 and his straight sets victory over Rafa in 2019 is his only triumph worth celebrating even though it pales into insignificance considering the amount of drubbing Djokovic has received from Rafa at RG, including a bagel. Djokovic has been fortunate not to meet Rafa much in off-clay slams.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

am serious. Djokovic took 6 hours to beat Rafa in Australia in 2012

So? In the end he won. How can you be greater than someone by losing to him?

Rafa in 2019 is his only triumph worth celebrating even though it pales into insignificance considering the amount of drubbing Djokovic has received from Rafa at RG, including a bagel.

You argue Rafa > Novak on HC, so the losses against him at RG are irrelevant here.

Djokovic has been fortunate not to meet Rafa much in off-clay slams.

. Delusional.

 

[clayqueen]

So? In the end he won. How can you be greater than someone by losing to him?


You argue Rafa > Novak on HC, so the losses against him at RG are irrelevant here.

. Delusional.

You are refusing to agree with the facts.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

You are refusing to agree with the facts.

The facts you presented are irrelevant for the argument you try to make. What you basically say is Nadal owned Novak on clay and played him once close at the AO (nevertheless lost) so it follows he is better than him on HC and Novak was lucky that they didn’t meet more often off clay. Anyways I won’t humor you anymore, this is obvious trolling.

 

[thrust]

Djok fanbase is the only fanbase that believes he's GOAT
Fed fanbase is the only fanbase that believes he's GOAT

Go ahead and make your thread, no one is stopping you...

Nadal fanbase are the only ones who believe Rafa is the GOAT

 

[Topspin_80]

Put Mats instead of Vilas and I would agree.

I forgot about Wilander, I can put it before Vilas, but not instead.

So, updated list:

#1 Nadal

#2 Borg

#3 Lendl

#4 Kuerten

#5 Wilander

#6 Vilas

#7 Djokovic

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I forgot about Wilander, I can put it before Vilas, but not instead.

So, updated list:

#1 Nadal

#2 Borg

#3 Lendl

#4 Kuerten

#5 Wilander

#6 Vilas

#7 Djokovic

Vilas ahead of Djokovic I have a hard time with given the circumstances around his 77 FO win. He was also far more useless against Borg than Novak against Nadal.

 

[Topspin_80]

Vilas ahead of Djokovic I have a hard time with given the circumstances around his 77 FO win. He was also far more useless against Borg than Novak against Nadal.

As of this moment, things can change since Djokovic is still active, both, Djokovic and Vilas got 2 slams.

The deciding factor for me is the amount of titles won on clay by Vilas 49, compared to the 18 djokovic has.

What circumstances you are talking about? Borg being absent?

 

[NoleFam]

I do. Nadal has beaten Djokovic 2 out of 3 times at the USO. If Rafa didn't get sidelined so often Djokovic's number of titles on hardcourt would be greatly reduced.

You are truly special.

 

[NoleFam]

I forgot about Wilander, I can put it before Vilas, but not instead.

So, updated list:

#1 Nadal

#2 Borg

#3 Lendl

#4 Kuerten

#5 Wilander

#6 Vilas

#7 Djokovic

There's no way Vilas is ranked over Djokovic. Only won 1 RG because Borg didn't play and got his clock cleaned everytime he played him there. Most would even have a hard time putting Kuerten and Wilander over him, nevermind Vilas.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Djokovic's career is more accomplished than anyone's clay career, but something tells me the abomination of a thread title meant something else.

 

[abmk]

Djokovic has been fortunate not to meet Rafa much in off-clay slams.

 

[NAS]

As of this moment, things can change since Djokovic is still active, both, Djokovic and Vilas got 2 slams.

The deciding factor for me is the amount of titles won on clay by Vilas 49, compared to the 18 djokovic has.

What circumstances you are talking about? Borg being absent?

Because unlike Vikas who was mostly a medium player outside clay, Novak has to focus more on other big titles on other surface.
He just can't blindly play clay tournament, ok how many Rome title Vilas has , Rome is quite a prestigious tournament on clay
Only reason Fed Or Novak didn't win many clay tournament because they have to look titles on other surface, for me they both are better than Vilas on clay

 

[Topspin_80]

There's no way Vilas is ranked over Djokovic. Only won 1 RG because Borg didn't play and got his clock cleaned everytime he played him there. Most would even have a hard time putting Kuerten and Wilander over him, nevermind Vilas.

Vilas won 1 RG, and 1 USO on clay, beating in the final the #1 of the world Jimmy Connors.

The absence of Borg was irrelevant, the defending champion, Adriano Panatta, the man who beat Borg, was playing.

At the 1977 FO, Vilas got combined 12 bagels and breadsticks, not bad at all.

In the final he routed #6 of the world Gottfried, by a score of 6-0 6-3 6-0.

Vilas was a great tennis player, specially on clay.

 

[NoleFam]

Vilas won 1 RG, and 1 USO on clay, beating in the final the #1 of the world Jimmy Connors.

The absence of Borg was irrelevant, the defending champion, Adriano Panatta, the man who beat Borg, was playing.

At the 1977 FO, Vilas got combined 12 bagels and breadsticks, not bad at all.

In the final he routed #6 of the world Gottfried, by a score of 6-0 6-3 6-0.

Vilas was a great tennis player, specially on clay.

The absence of Borg was irrelevant? Borg won 4 straight RG titles after Vilas' 1977 win and destroyed him the next year in the 1978 final, only giving him 7 games. Destroyed him in the 1975 final as well but at least it was a more respectable scoreline.

Vilas was great but not greater than Djokovic. He has all these smaller clay titles but how many big ones? Only has 1 Rome title, the biggest title outside RG. We know that's far behind Djokovic and Djokovic has more RG titles than him, which is the true pinnacle of clay tennis. Any argument for him over Djokovic is a weak one.

 

[Red Rick]

wow I almost had a stroke while reading this title queen

as for the topic , he's between #3-10 all time, closer to 4th if you factor in competition (10 matches vs Nadal at RG) and longevity (basically unmatched longevity along Rosewall/Rafa) but much lower like 8th if you factor in just prime level/accomplishments as many others have better title hauls (Borg, Kuerten, Lendl, Wilander)

Prime level meaning what? Any other stat than RG titles he's like 3rd or 4th, his win% would be 3rd if not for Nadal and Borgs is a meme stat because he quit right before he started going down.

 

[RS]

Prime level meaning what? Any other stat than RG titles he's like 3rd or 4th, his win% would be 3rd if not for Nadal and Borgs is a meme stat because he quit right before he started going down.

Would you homestly consider the possibility Djokovic is better than Borg on clay?

 

[Red Rick]

Would you homestly consider the possibility Djokovic is better than Borg on clay?

Hard to adjust for 70s tennis being a semiprofessional pub level sport.

But putting the likes of Kuerten over him are certified meme takes.

 

[RS]

Hard to adjust for 70s tennis being a semiprofessional pub level sport.

But putting the likes of Kuerten over him are certified meme takes.

Ok so you would

So Djokovic 2nd all time on clay.

 

[Topspin_80]

Because unlike Vikas who was mostly a medium player outside clay, Novak has to focus more on other big titles on other surface.
He just can't blindly play clay tournament, ok how many Rome title Vilas has , Rome is quite a prestigious tournament on clay
Only reason Fed Or Novak didn't win many clay tournament because they have to look titles on other surface, for me they both are better than Vilas on clay

NAS, this thread is to compare Djokovic's clay career, with somebody else clay career, so don't bring the Djokovic has to focus on other big titles.

I'm not saying Vilas is better than Djokovic overall, all I'm saying is Vilas was better on clay than Djokovic is up to this moment, because if Djokovic wins
RG one more time, I'll change my opinion.

And don't ever say Vilas was a medium player outside clay, he won 2 AUS open on grass, and the only ever master finals on grass.
Plus he has 6 titles on carpet.

I don't know if you ever played on carpet, but carpet if faster than fast HC.

Vilas was also a good player outside clay.

 

[The_Order]

Nadal fanbase are the only ones who believe Rafa is the GOAT

Yeah that's what I was responding to... it's the same for all fanbases...

Neutrals could pick any one of the big 3.

Like I've said many times... GOAT is a flawed concept anyway...

 

[RS]

Yeah that's what I was responding to... it's the same for all fanbases...

Neutrals could pick any one of the big 3.

Like I've said many times... GOAT is a flawed concept anyway...

I like the idea there is no GOAT tbh or nobody has done enough to separate themselves.

 

[Kralingen]

Prime level meaning what? Any other stat than RG titles he's like 3rd or 4th, his win% would be 3rd if not for Nadal and Borgs is a meme stat because he quit right before he started going down.

Lendl - 1 loss to Borg, 3 titles beating 84 Mac (greatest season ever), 86 easy draw but totally dominant, and 87 beating ATG Wilander
Wilander - 3 titles, beat ATG Vilas at 17, defending champ Lendl in 85, good run in 88
Kuerten - beat RG champs Kafelnikov/Bruguera in 97, RG champs Kafelnikov/Ferrero in 00 AND 01
Even Bruguera and Courier beat other RG champs and lost to clay ATGs only

Djokovic shouldn’t get extra credit for just showing up and being Nadal’s doormat for 8 years, and only beating the WOAT versions in 2015/21. He’s only beaten an RG champion three times. All the other guys have multiple wins over RG champs

Djoko’s 2 RG wins are over Murray and Tsitsipas. Weaker than any runs above except for Willander 88 and Lendl 86

 

[The_Order]

I like the idea there is no GOAT tbh or nobody has done enough to separate themselves.

Not an idea RS, it's a fact.... there are way too many variables to categorically determine a GOAT

 

[Humphrey20133]

She thinks Nadal>Djokovic on hardcourt overall, read her previous posts in this thread.

She did not say that. I know reading is hard, but do try and keep up.

I would also like to add that I have seen multiple Novak stans say that he is better at RG than Rafa, and that he is the clay goat, one of them being Patrick Mouratoglou. I have also seen them say that Novak's peak is higher on clay than Rafa's well. What do say about that?

 

[Red Rick]

Lendl - 1 loss to Borg, 3 titles beating 84 Mac (greatest season ever), 86 easy draw but totally dominant, and 87 beating ATG Wilander
Wilander - 3 titles, beat ATG Vilas at 17, defending champ Lendl in 85, good run in 88
Kuerten - beat RG champs Kafelnikov/Bruguera in 97, RG champs Kafelnikov/Ferrero in 00 AND 01
Even Bruguera and Courier beat other RG champs and lost to clay ATGs only

Djokovic shouldn’t get extra credit for just showing up and being Nadal’s doormat for 8 years, and only beating the WOAT versions in 2015/21. He’s only beaten an RG champion three times. All the other guys have multiple wins over RG champs

Djoko’s 2 RG wins are over Murray and Tsitsipas. Weaker than any runs above except for Willander 88 and Lendl 86

Going 4-0 vs in sets vs Nadal in 2011 doesn't count?

 

[Kralingen]

She did not say that. I know reading is hard, but do try and keep up.

I would also like to add that I have seen multiple Novak stans say that he is better at RG than Rafa, and that he is the clay goat, one of them being Patrick Mouratoglou. I have also seen them say that Novak's peak is higher on clay than Rafa's well. What do say about that?

No but she literally thinks that and has said that lol

 

[Kralingen]

Going 4-0 vs in sets vs Nadal in 2011 doesn't count?

No because he lost to 30 year old Fed at RG when it mattered

 

[Red Rick]

No because he lost to 30 year old Fed at RG when it mattered

Lol.

But Kuerten never breaking 60% games won at RG was indeed very dominant.

You basically give credit for beating 90s RG winners that wouldn't sniff the finals in the Nadal era.

Meanwhiel "only beat Murray" who's RG career win% is 11th of all time.

 

[The_Order]

She did not say that. I know reading is hard, but do try and keep up.

I would also like to add that I have seen multiple Novak stans say that he is better at RG than Rafa, and that he is the clay goat, one of them being Patrick Mouratoglou. I have also seen them say that Novak's peak is higher on clay than Rafa's well. What do say about that?

Novak's peak on hc doesn't touch Rafa's on clay...

 

[Humphrey20133]

No but she literally thinks that and has said that lol

Nope. Not believing that until some proof she specifically said Rafa is hardcourt goat over Novak. Not buying it otherwise.

 

[Humphrey20133]

Novak's peak on hc doesn't touch Rafa's on clay...

Of course, it doesn't. These tools think that Novak is clay goat over Rafa. Lol. It's totally laughable.

 

[RS]

Lol.

But Kuerten never breaking 60% games won at RG was indeed very dominant.

You basically give credit for beating 90s RG winners that wouldn't sniff the finals in the Nadal era.

Meanwhiel "only beat Murray" who's RG career win% is 11th of all time.

Peak Murray vs Peak Ferrero 10 matches at RG?

 

[Kralingen]

Nope. Not believing that until some proof she specifically said Rafa is hardcourt goat over Novak. Not buying it otherwise.

I’m not about to do the whole searching thing but she’s definitively said Nadal is better than both guys on hard courts lol

take a step back, you’re defending clayqueen

anyways it doesn’t matter I’m just letting you know as you may not be familiar as a new user

 

[NoleFam]

Lendl - 1 loss to Borg, 3 titles beating 84 Mac (greatest season ever), 86 easy draw but totally dominant, and 87 beating ATG Wilander
Wilander - 3 titles, beat ATG Vilas at 17, defending champ Lendl in 85, good run in 88
Kuerten - beat RG champs Kafelnikov/Bruguera in 97, RG champs Kafelnikov/Ferrero in 00 AND 01
Even Bruguera and Courier beat other RG champs and lost to clay ATGs only

Djokovic shouldn’t get extra credit for just showing up and being Nadal’s doormat for 8 years, and only beating the WOAT versions in 2015/21. He’s only beaten an RG champion three times. All the other guys have multiple wins over RG champs

Djoko’s 2 RG wins are over Murray and Tsitsipas. Weaker than any runs above except for Willander 88 and Lendl 86

Arbitrary at best. There's only been 4 RG champs, including Djokovic himself, in the last 17 years. You can't beat something that doesn't exist. Djokovic's 2021 win was weak? Lol. The 2021 run was over Musetti, Berretini, Nadal and Tsistipas. Musetti will probably win that tournament one day and maybe Tsitsipas which will only make the 2021 run even more legendary. It already is by beating 2021 Nadal. Kuerten has an argument as a better RG player, and even I ranked him above Djokovic, but not really overall on clay. Definitely not Bruguera and Courier.

 

[Topspin_80]

The absence of Borg was irrelevant? Borg won 4 straight RG titles after Vilas' 1977 win and destroyed him the next year in the 1978 final, only giving him 7 games. Destroyed him in the 1975 final as well but at least it was a more respectable scoreline.

Vilas was great but not greater than Djokovic. He has all these smaller clay titles but how many big ones? Only has 1 Rome title, the biggest title outside RG. We know that's far behind Djokovic and Djokovic has more RG titles than him, which is the true pinnacle of clay tennis. Any argument for him over Djokovic is a weak one.

NoleFam, you have to be pretty young to say Rome is the biggest title outside FO like it has always been.

Monte Carlo used to be the most prestigious clay event outside the FO, then Hamburg, then Rome.

Vilas has won all 3.

Borg absence was irrelevant he was not the champion and didn't want to face Panatta at the FO where Borg had a negative H2H 1-2, and a negative
overall of 5-6.

So yes, Borg absence was irrelevant, I watched that tournament, and at that time Borg was my favorite player.

 

[RS]

Why do I sense this is getting heated soon......

 

[Kralingen]

Lol.

But Kuerten never breaking 60% games won at RG was indeed very dominant.

You basically give credit for beating 90s RG winners that wouldn't sniff the finals in the Nadal era.

Meanwhiel "only beat Murray" who's RG career win% is 11th of all time.

Arbitrary at best. There's only been 4 RG champs, including Djokovic himself, in the last 17 years. You can't beat something that doesn't exist. Djokovic's 2021 win was weak.l? Lol. The 2021 run was over Musetti, Berretini, Nadal and Tsistipas. Musetti will probably win that tournament one day and maybe Tsitsipas which will only make the 2021 run even kore legendary. It already is by beating 2021 Nadal. Kuerten has an argument as q better RG player, and even I ranked him above Djokovic, but not really overall on clay. Definitely not Bruguera and Courier.

I mean all I’m saying here is if we use this logic then we have to say Murray is one of the greatest AO champions of all time

which no one would do

Murray has 1 epic 5 set loss (2012) and 2 disappointing losses (2011/16) and 2 somewhat close but still disappointing losses (13/15) to Djo at the AO

Djokovic has 2 losses where he was clearly overmatched as a young player (06/07), 4 competitive ones (08/12/14/22), 1 epic 5 set loss (2013), an embarrassment (2020) and of course the two wins over a struggling Nadal in 15/21. Murray could’ve beaten 10/17 Djokovic at AO too if we want to go there.

obviously Djoker is an amazing clay player especially at Rome and lost to the best clay tennis ever multiple times. But is his resume that different from Murray’s at the AO?

 

[NoleFam]

NoleFam, you have to be pretty young to say Rome is the biggest title outside FO like it has always been.

Monte Carlo used to be the most prestigious clay event outside the FO, then Hamburg, then Rome.

Vilas has won all 3.

Borg absence was irrelevant he was not the champion and didn't want to face Panatta at the FO where Borg had a negative H2H 1-2, and a negative
overall of 5-6.

So yes, Borg absence was irrelevant, I watched that tournament, and at that time Borg was my favorite player.

MC is prestigious but Rome has always been the most prestigious. Both are old as dirt so doesn't really matter. Djokovic still has 2 of those, same as Vilas, so he gains no ground there either.

Borg missed the tournament because he didn't want to face Panatta? Come on. Even you have to laugh at this.