If you're fat/slow/unfit

user92626

G.O.A.T.
My philosophy is to enjoy the journey of life irrespective of whatever destination it takes me to. So, I might never get to 5.0, but it is fun to keep pushing myself physically and from a technique standpoint to try and get there especially as I have the spare time and resources to get regular coaching now.
Of course we all get fun from pushing ourselves. Enjoying the journey. It's like buying scratcher lotteries. It's hella fun.

But if you ask about actually making money, or actually achieving "read ball better, select shots better" -- which is entirely different story --, the answer is stop dreaming. :laughing: :p:-D:D
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
anywhoo I might be too much a straight shooter for you guys. Might not be fun. So, I'll say.. Keep it up. As long as U have fun. :giggle:

I need a change of topic.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
My philosophy is to enjoy the journey of life irrespective of whatever destination it takes me to.
The destination has many routes - a fish will enjoy a route through water, a horse might like a path on the dry land, but car might need a paved road. The "thing" that's planning the journey needs to know what sort of creature it is (self awareness).
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
The destination has many routes - a fish will enjoy a route through water, a horse might like a path on the dry land, but car might need a paved road. The "thing" that's planning the journey needs to know what sort of creature it is (self awareness).
:D :-D Interesting, bud. Well put.

I take it that there's a lot of fish trying to cross dessert. o_O:laughing: Nutting wrong with that, as some fish simply enjoy the dry, heat air. :X3:
 

Fintft

Legend
The Japanese word kaizen means "change for better", without inherent meaning of either "continuous" or "philosophy" in Japanese dictionaries and in everyday use. The word refers to any improvement, one-time or continuous, large or small, in the same sense as the English word "improvement".[5] However, given the common practice in Japan of labeling industrial or business improvement techniques with the word "kaizen", particularly the practices spearheaded by Toyota, the word "kaizen" in English is typically applied to measures for implementing continuous improvement, especially those with a "Japanese philosophy". The discussion below focuses on such interpretations of the word, as frequently used in the context of modern management discussions.
 
You DO know, even with something you have never tried, but you just don't accept it.

I'll give u an exaggerated point so you can understand: you will never ever reach ATP 100. A more finer point: you will never ever reach the qualifier level of an ATP 500. If I know you more I could give you even finer-point limits. As yourself you should know alot more about yourself.
Sure, I'll concede your assertions. I don't feel that bad because I'm not aware of any ATP 500 who is 55 and didn't play juniors or college.

However, getting back to the point of the thread, if someone is fat/slow/unfit, they absolutely can do things to improve and the likelihood of success is way higher than me reaching ATP 500.

You getting from 4.0 to 4.5 also has a much greater probability.

Most people have a good sense of their limits. Their drinking limit, their work limit, driving limit, etc. Tennis is no different. You know a great deal about it, but whether you want to admit that or not is different story.
I do not know for a fact that I cannot make 5.0. Someone else may tell me I'll never get there but that doesn't convince me. And even if I attempt and fail, that's better than giving up and declaring it to be impossible.

Maybe it's simply a matter of the goals being within one's view of one's limits.

But that's changing the subject: prior, you stated the reason to not attempt it was
- the reward was too small
- the reward was unsustainable
- you didn't know if you were meant to achieve it

That doesn't sound at all like you're taking limits into account.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
I do not know for a fact that I cannot make 5.0. Someone else may tell me I'll never get there but that doesn't convince me. And even if I attempt and fail, that's better than giving up and declaring it to be impossible.
While what you say is true, there's another window that may reveal a different perspective (user92626) - 5.0 achievement may not be worth the trouble and maybe short-lived and painful given the physical limitations of an aging body. It's interesting - both are making complimentary arguments and the only disagreement seems to be very trivial.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
But again what do you want me to do about me hitting half of short balls into the net? And making an error on every 3rd return of serve? Should I just accept it and keep doing it?
Let's see. If I play against Federer (the Federer himself) and always lose 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, is it really the fault of my tennis skill anymore?

NO. It's the fault of Federer or specifically the level being too much for me. I've already done everything I possibly could. There's no more anyone could have asked of me. All the errors, point loss were simply due to the level being beyond my level. If the fault is not mine, is there anything else to fix? NO.

So, think about that.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I do not know for a fact that I cannot make 5.0. Someone else may tell me I'll never get there but that doesn't convince me. And even if I attempt and fail, that's better than giving up and declaring it to be impossible.
As I have said before, you DO KNOW you cannot make ATP 500 level. Going closer, how about 6.0? It's also a NO for you. Right?

As the question gets closer to your current level (4.5?), it will require a bit of your intelligence and analytical skills. You are smart, right? You can predict how you'll fare with a level arm-length away, right?

Back to this specific thread, given years and years and years of data on hand, I think @Curious can predict whether he can achieve x level higher. ;)
 

Curious

Legend
Let's see. If I play against Federer (the Federer himself) and always lose 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, is it really the fault of my tennis skill anymore?

NO. It's the fault of Federer or specifically the level being too much for me. I've already done everything I possibly could. There's no more anyone could have asked of me. All the errors, point loss were simply due to the level being beyond my level. If the fault is not mine, is there anything else to fix? NO.

So, think about that.
You like exaggerating don’t you? Your ATP point and Federer examples are just silly. I’m not playing people who are vastly better than me. What you don’t seem to get it is I don’t have to get to 4.0, 4.5 or 6.0 to be happy. As long as I get better even very incrementally and I enjoy the process, it’s all good. So I’ll be happy to be a 3.778 in a year if I’m 3.765 now!
 
But again what do you want me to do about me hitting half of short balls into the net? And making an error on every 3rd return of serve? Should I just accept it and keep doing it?
Do you know why you are hitting short balls into the net? I suspect it's because of
- Being too much in a rush to get to the net
- Overhitting because you're trying to hit a winner rather than a setup shot
- Your anticipation, reaction, and footwork need improvement; currently, you're getting there late and the ball is well out of your strike zone

Review your video and see if you can detect these things. Then set up practice where your partner feeds you short balls and you work on hitting aggressively to big targets but with the emphasis on making the shot.

Same approach with the return: review the video and draw some conclusions. Then work on addressing those. Then reassess.
 
Let's see. If I play against Federer (the Federer himself) and always lose 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, 0-6, is it really the fault of my tennis skill anymore?

NO. It's the fault of Federer or specifically the level being too much for me. I've already done everything I possibly could. There's no more anyone could have asked of me. All the errors, point loss were simply due to the level being beyond my level. If the fault is not mine, is there anything else to fix? NO.

So, think about that.
If you've watched any of @Curious' videos, you'd see he's not making errors because he's getting overwhelmed. I might go so far to say he's being underwhelmed. Which leads to a completely different conclusion about what can be done.
 

Curious

Legend
Do you know why you are hitting short balls into the net? I suspect it's because of
- Being too much in a rush to get to the net
- Overhitting because you're trying to hit a winner rather than a setup shot
- Your anticipation, reaction, and footwork need improvement; currently, you're getting there late and the ball is well out of your strike zone

Review your video and see if you can detect these things. Then set up practice where your partner feeds you short balls and you work on hitting aggressively to big targets but with the emphasis on making the shot.

Same approach with the return: review the video and draw some conclusions. Then work on addressing those. Then reassess.
Yeah, sure, thanks. But brother user92626 tells me to keep hitting the net as he lost hope in me completely!:D
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
You like exaggerating don’t you? Your ATP point and Federer examples are just silly. I’m not playing people who are vastly better than me. What you don’t seem to get it is I don’t have to get to 4.0, 4.5 or 6.0 to be happy. As long as I get better even very incrementally and I enjoy the process, it’s all good. So I’ll be happy to be a 3.778 in a year if I’m 3.765 now!
Hehehe... I feel like I always have to use something to explain it to you guys.

I was tempted to bring out apples and count them with you slowly. :)
 

Fintft

Legend
Do you know why you are hitting short balls into the net? I suspect it's because of
- Being too much in a rush to get to the net
- Overhitting because you're trying to hit a winner rather than a setup shot
- Your anticipation, reaction, and footwork need improvement; currently, you're getting there late and the ball is well out of your strike zone

Review your video and see if you can detect these things. Then set up practice where your partner feeds you short balls and you work on hitting aggressively to big targets but with the emphasis on making the shot.

Same approach with the return: review the video and draw some conclusions. Then work on addressing those. Then reassess.
Also hit relaxed, early prep?
You may also want to hit up (with more topspin), unless the ball is very high and in that case you can probably hit down?
 

Fintft

Legend
He actually implies that you’ll have more fun playing with crowd who hit even more into the net so that you can dominate them :-D
Not my philosophy in any sports...
Besides, on who's side are you anyhow? :)
Long live Medvedev and Rublev!
 

Dragy

Legend
Not my philosophy in any sports...
Besides, on who's side are you anyhow? :)
Long live Medvedev and Rublev!
Rublev is that guy who’s pain to cheer for. Kind of - he’s your national athlete, a strong player with aspirations... But that personality and all-or-nothing approach...
Medvedev now has chance to win anything, including this AO. Tsitsipas came over Rafa as great competitor... great fight expected.
 

Fintft

Legend
Rublev is that guy who’s pain to cheer for. Kind of - he’s your national athlete, a strong player with aspirations... But that personality and all-or-nothing approach...
Medvedev now has chance to win anything, including this AO. Tsitsipas came over Rafa as great competitor... great fight expected.
Rublev also can not run as much, nor as fast as Medvedev, not is as mentally strong, but his FH is such a joy to watch! The most fearsome in the game, according to Brad Gilbert.
Medvedev has the chance to win everything, you mean? :)

Rafa played like Simona, not enough pace on the balls and too many misses (also due to the fact that he couldn't defend).
I am happy that tennis is not always a "sport of errors" and attacking tennis wins more, now a days.
 

RajS

Semi-Pro
But again what do you want me to do about me hitting half of short balls into the net? And making an error on every 3rd return of serve? Should I just accept it and keep doing it?
Man, you are so dedicated that I think you should get a coach, for at least once a week. The coach should either be able to see you hit with others, or hit with you himself. The reason I say this is that in order to improve, and quickly at that, someone should hold you to one style and one set of instructions, and give continuous feedback that points out when you do something wrong.

Left to ourselves, we tend to keep flitting from style to style depending on the ATP player who impressed us most last week. And we don't even copy that style properly ('cause we can only see the external form, who knows how the internal muscles are actually firing), and become good at being very sub-optimal or outright wrong.

I finally got a coach with whom I hit once a week (twice sometimes), and I can't tell you how much I have learned and improved. Only problem is I am not getting younger (64) so unless the coach can make my legs go faster (ha ha), my match results won't improve too much, and I have accepted that.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Only problem is I am not getting younger (64) so unless the coach can make my legs go faster (ha ha), my match results won't improve too much, and I have accepted that.
I don't need faster legs to improve your tennis.

I used to play with this much older man, around 70. Naturally we (me, him, other guys, etc) played handicaps games to give everyone a real chance at winning.

The other younger guy loved to drop shot on him, and of course he lost almost every single time and he squarely blamed that on his immobility.

At that point I told him... he has to shift his focus on 2 things instead of keeping trying to run faster. Watch closer of his opponent hitting form for earlier detection of a dropshot, and secondly, cheat his position a little by stepping in a couple steps (this can even be pure gamble and it's still better than 1 static, predictable position). (He just had to win a slightly more to win the match, given the handicaps).

It worked. It didn't require him to suddenly increase his strength (running) which is impossible. And anyone can gamble when he becomes too predictable and static. No?
 

RajS

Semi-Pro
@user92626 Well, you are right, improvements in reaction time and anticipation are also things to work on, which I do. It all starts with the split step, which is part of my drilling. I am far from immobile, so no handicaps are necessary, but my steady partners are all quicker and more explosive than me on account of their being much younger. Not a problem though, since I do get the occasional win, and that keeps me riding on the clouds for a while!
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
You're not doing yourself any favor by trying to reach higher and higher in recreational tennis. It's completely meaningless and often detrimental :)
Really dumb statement. The opportunity to improve oneself is one of the most enjoyable things about recreational sport

I peaked as a player in my early 20s, when I was at my fittest and had a large amount of time to dedicate to training. But I still seek to improve every time I step onto the court

If you make your enjoyment of the game contingent on reaching a certain arbitrary level then you will have a bad time, but there is nothing wrong with seeking to be a better player tomorrow than the one you were yesterday

Your attitude to tennis frankly sounds pretty negative and miserable, I hope I never end up with you as my doubles partner
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Is it meaningful to try to reach 3.5 from 3.0 but not meaningful from 3.5 to 4.0??
For many yes.. How many hours of tennis do you put in a week? How many hours can you put in as a recreational player and not take away from the rest of your life? For many that number is 15 or so..

So here is the thing - if you can advance up the tennis ladder while playing this 'normal' amount - that's great. But what happens to almost everyone is diminishing returns. Even if you up your hours to 20 25 even 30 hours of tennis you don't continue to rise up in levels. But they suffer in life. Relationships suffer - work production suffers - enjoyment of life is less and so on.

In general people figure this out and plateau off at earlier levels. Is 3.5 the best they could be? No. But it is what they can be without extra practice or training then the weekly match or two they play in.

This is why striving for tennis mastery is not the plan for most. It's not a matter of working at it till you get it because physical talent is so varied. You can't treat tennis like a foreign language. There are billions of people who couldn't reach 5.0 with daily professional instruction from the finest coaches in the world. The 3.5s out there grok this - even if they don't want to admit it.

Coaches aren't going to tell you this either.. As it is not in their business interest to let you know..
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Really dumb statement. The opportunity to improve oneself is one of the most enjoyable things about recreational sport
It's not dumb at all - its insightful. If you take actual stock of the situation you see most of the players you know NOT improving in terms of actual on court performance compared to peers. Thus if "improvement" was the main reason to play ALMOST NO ONE WOULD PLAY!

The only actual players would be juniors and/or people working towards the pro tour.. Because those are the only people with actual measurable improvements that have been playing for a long time..
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
It's not dumb at all - its insightful. If you take actual stock of the situation you see most of the players you know NOT improving in terms of actual on court performance compared to peers. Thus if "improvement" was the main reason to play ALMOST NO ONE WOULD PLAY!

The only actual players would be juniors and/or people working towards the pro tour.. Because those are the only people with actual measurable improvements that have been playing for a long time..
What a boring and one-dimensional definition of improvement

I played my highest level of competitive tennis 15 years ago, but there are still aspects of my game that improve every time I practice. I still get the odd lesson and fine tune aspects of my technique. I seek out new competitions and look to improve relative to my peers. It’s very enjoyable.

It surprises me that there are so many miserable and negative people on this forum, because I don’t run into them while playing

Maybe that is because they are all so jaded about the sport that they spend more time posting negativity on the internet than swinging a racquet
 

AnyPUG

Professional
The poster who says so many people on the forum are miserable and negative starts his own post by treating other messages with total respect and really polite phrases such as "really dumb", "boring and one dimensional". Very nice.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
But again what do you want me to do about me hitting half of short balls into the net? And making an error on every 3rd return of serve? Should I just accept it and keep doing it?
The best advice I can give you is to just get fat. i never miss short balls and well I am fat.
 

Fintft

Legend
The poster who says so many people on the forum are miserable and negative starts his own post by treating other messages with total respect and really polite phrases such as "really dumb", "boring and one dimensional". Very nice.
There is that :)
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
The best advice I can give you is to just get fat. i never miss short balls and well I am fat.
This might be good advice as most players run too fast and stop too close to short balls resulting in them getting jammed and putting a weak swing on the ball. If you are slow and unfit, at least you won’t have that issue:D
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Really dumb statement. The opportunity to improve oneself is one of the most enjoyable things about recreational sport
What a boring and one-dimensional definition of improvement
Ironically This (what you said) is actually, truly one-dimensional. Improvement is hardly a main thesis in recreation.

Old man, when you reach 4.5 then what? Set your aim at 5.0? After 5.0 then 6.0 and so on?

Clearly this is STUPID for many reasons. Any noticeable progress requires changes, substantial changes in your time, resource and effort (call cost). So, are you going to keep increasing your cost for pointless high performance and wins at a recreational hobby? I find very few people that are stupid to keep throwing money and time down the drain. You're smarter than that.

Speaking of one-dimensional. Tying enjoyment to only improvement is actually one-dimensional.

Enjoyment from this rec sport actually consists of a small part from improvement, but a bigger part from interacting with other people and possibly some exercise. For this reason 98% of rec players out there neglect getting better. That's because they have found what they're looking for.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
For many yes.. How many hours of tennis do you put in a week? How many hours can you put in as a recreational player and not take away from the rest of your life? For many that number is 15 or so..

So here is the thing - if you can advance up the tennis ladder while playing this 'normal' amount - that's great. But what happens to almost everyone is diminishing returns. Even if you up your hours to 20 25 even 30 hours of tennis you don't continue to rise up in levels. But they suffer in life. Relationships suffer - work production suffers - enjoyment of life is less and so on.

In general people figure this out and plateau off at earlier levels. Is 3.5 the best they could be? No. But it is what they can be without extra practice or training then the weekly match or two they play in.

This is why striving for tennis mastery is not the plan for most. It's not a matter of working at it till you get it because physical talent is so varied. You can't treat tennis like a foreign language. There are billions of people who couldn't reach 5.0 with daily professional instruction from the finest coaches in the world. The 3.5s out there grok this - even if they don't want to admit it.

Coaches aren't going to tell you this either.. As it is not in their business interest to let you know..
It's not dumb at all - its insightful. If you take actual stock of the situation you see most of the players you know NOT improving in terms of actual on court performance compared to peers. Thus if "improvement" was the main reason to play ALMOST NO ONE WOULD PLAY!

The only actual players would be juniors and/or people working towards the pro tour.. Because those are the only people with actual measurable improvements that have been playing for a long time..
Thanks for that statement about "insightful". I have played alot but also have philosophized much too :)

The red stuff, that's what many people aren't willing to admit. I bet they know or have a general sense about it but the admittance is not there.

I wanted to become a solid 4.0 (for some reasons) and I reached it here and there. But when I reached 4.0, I would want to reach 4.5. Each time I wanted to change for improvement I had to spend a lot of resources. Then, I realized what is the end game? There's none :)

At that point I gotta re-examined my reasons for getting better and nothing justified it (for the cost). If I only looked for exercise, people drama and fun, I was already having all that at 3.5 level!
 
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