If you're serve is not 4.5 caliber, it might as well be 3.0 caliber.

If you play in a league you will run into some guys that serve big for their level and they win that way. It's not common - but it does work. This idea that you have to do x y z to win is nonsense. just need to do some things better then the other guy. Better serves absolutely work.
 
what is this rubbish he is now telegraphing. a 3.5 wont beat a 4.0 and a 4.0 wont beat a 4.5. Next year he will come to the conclusion that a 5.0 cant beat a 6.0.
 
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at 4.0, serve needs to be a) reliable b) seldom attacked

when i was a 3.5,... the biggest difference that set me up to jump to the “big 4.0” was my serve.

it wasn’t a “big” serve (still isn’t), but I could direct it reliably to the bh (weaker wing) consistently,... but most importantly I I double faulted much less.

often, just placing it to a 3.5’s bh is enough to win the point (if not outright, then on the 2nd or 3rd shot)
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
I did. And I didn't renew. I realized I vastly prefer to learn singles. The majority of USTA matches are doubles. No thanks. I'm in a 3.5 singles league at one club, and a 4.0 club league at another, both of which have been great so far. I have all the hitting partners I can handle, and see no need to travel. I have no need for USTA at the current date
Click to expand...

I havent been a usta member since 2001. Used to need them for tournaments and state ranking points, but that doesnt matter after the juniors.

I agree though, singles is far more fun than doubles (unless messing around). Leagues have to do it because of court availiblity. There is a sat morning league that does 3 doubles and 2 singles, but you gotta wake up early
 
SinjinCooper said:
If you take a beginning/improving tennis player, and they play primarily with...

...people who spend most of their time improving by "hitting around" with other people, they'll tend to have groundstrokes ahead of their serves and net games.

...no one -- that is, they spend most of their time improving by practicing alone -- they'll tend to have serves ahead of their groundstrokes and net games. (This was me, before I started H.S. tennis, once upon a time.)

...people who spend most of their time playing hack social dubs in public parks, they'll tend to have net games ahead of their serves and groundstrokes.

...country club pros and in group clinics, they'll tend to improve their whole games incrementally, a little at a time.

All these approaches work, and none will see you racing ahead of (or falling behind) your contemporaries. It's all about how hard and how well you work on what you're working on. Milos Raonic became a top five player in the world for a spell, even though he said he had no one to really hit with for years when he started out. You can still see it in his game; his serve is light years ahead of every other stroke. Imbalanced? Sure, but nobody would call him a bad tennis player. Focus works.

Work on what you can, and work on it well, and you'll improve. Building upon strengths is as valid a path to improvement as eradicating weaknesses, up to a point.

Make no mistake: there are plenty of players at 4.0 whose greatest strength is their serve. You're probably less likely to run into this, however, if you come from a dense, urban area, where hitting partners from every level are easy to come by. I see it all the time in the corn belt, though.
Click to expand...

ivo’s of the rec world :)
heck i’ve seen frying pan servers hit bigger than me
 
Chadillac said:
I havent been a usta member since 2001. Used to need them for tournaments and state ranking points, but that doesnt matter after the juniors.

I agree though, singles is far more fun than doubles (unless messing around). Leagues have to do it because of court availiblity. There is a sat morning league that does 3 doubles and 2 singles, but you gotta wake up early
Click to expand...

I have more fun playing doubles, singles is work.

J
 
GuyClinch said:
If you play in a league you will run into some guys that serve big for their level and they win that way. It's not common - but it does work. This idea that you have to do x y z to win is nonsense. just need to do some things better then the other guy. Better serves absolutely work.
Click to expand...

I saw a 3.5 guy at sectionals with a 6' kick serve!

J
 
TTPS You're wasting too much time thinking about this.

I know a guy who had a 3.5 level serve but is a 5.0 level player (Yes actually rated 5.0) Because his serve was so weak the rest of his game had to make up for it and it made the guy very good at running down balls and staying in a rally when his opponent had an advantage.

These days his serve is probably more like a weak 4.5 as he has been improving it along with his volleys which weren't great before but have now come a long way.


TTPS you remind me of a guy I used to play with that found reasons for everything ... he was always changing strings, racquets, instructors, etc... even balls! He constantly tried to overanalyze every little thing.

If you return 4.5 serves better than 3.0 serves don't look down at your opponent, realize it's something you need to improve on and work at it.

If pushers bother you don't hate them, learn to create your own pace and beat them.

Look inwards for solutions, not outwards.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
I did. And I didn't renew. I realized I vastly prefer to learn singles. The majority of USTA matches are doubles. No thanks. I'm in a 3.5 singles league at one club, and a 4.0 club league at another, both of which have been great so far. I have all the hitting partners I can handle, and see no need to travel. I have no need for USTA at the current date
Click to expand...

My experience is "club league" and internet flex leagues are a little softer than real USTA league. maybe that's why you don't see a difference in 3.0 vs 4.0 level serves.
 
TenFanLA said:
And did he hit harder than Nadal?
Click to expand...

In my experience, 3.5 players hit much harder groundstrokes than 4.0
In some cases, yes, they hit harder than Nadal.
Yesterday, I saw a massive 3.5 taking 100% swings at approach shots.
100%. They usually missed, but when he hit it in, it was hit 200% the speed of an ATP pro, and was unreturnable.
Yes, I have been to the US Open the last 5 years in a row, and know what I am talking about.

4.0 is mindful of hitting the ball in. 3.5 is not. 3.5 is going for the highlight reel every time.
Against a 3.5, the point is over much sooner. You either get a UE, or their ball is impossible to return,
since it's hit harder than Nadal. Nadal has to keep the ball in play to earn money. A 3.5 does not.
The entire goal of a 3.5 is to hit the ball as hard as he can. The idea of how to win a match is beyond his ken.
This is why 3.5 players want pushers burned alive.

This unassailable logic also translates to serving.
4.0 serve is a pattycake with 0% DF rate.
3.5 serve will be a rocket with tons of DFs
 
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TimeToPlaySets said:
In my experience, 3.5 players hit much harder groundstrokes than 4.0
In some cases, yes, they hit harder than Nadal.
Yesterday, I saw a massive 3.5 taking 100% swings at approach shots.
100%. They usually missed, but when he hit it in, it was hit 200% the speed of an ATP pro, and was unreturnable.
Yes, I have been to the US Open the last 5 years in a row, and know what I am talking about.
Click to expand...

Im having a really hard time figuring out if you are simply trolling or really so ignorant.
 
I find this thread to be based on a really odd premise. It's basically like saying against people who aren't very good at tennis, working toward having a good serve is a waste of time. IOW, if I don't care about advancing then I don't have to learn how to serve. It's sort of like self selection.

The problem with serve for lower level players, and even mid level players, is that it's a very difficult stroke to learn for most people, and most people are lazy and impatient. I've taught many players how to serve and usually the first thing I have to do is convince them that if it feels right to them, then they are doing it wrong.

The other thing that's hard to do is convince people that if they can accept that their serve will pretty much suck for a little while during the initial relearning phase they will eventually have an excellent serve. I believe that 90%+ of people playing tennis could learn a professional technique for their serve if they want to.

Most people I've taught are able to hit flat and kick within a few weeks. It's not that hard. The problem is more mental and believing in it. So I guess my point is if you want to stay a 3.5 or 4.0, then working on a real serve is overrated.

If you actually want to move up and play better tennis, then working on the serve is essential. 100% without a doubt.

Of course I know a lot of guys who could play 4.5 if they wanted, but choose to play a bit sloppy now and then so they can stay at 4.0, so there is definitely a large group of people who are happy to not to try and better themselves.
 
The point is that you can advance to 4.0 without improving your serve.
You can weakly serve all the way to 4.0
For many aspiring 3.5 players (the vast majority of tennis players), that is valuable information.
It is the most overrated stroke rec tennis, which is a great discussion point.
You're welcome!
 
Yeah, but you could say that about any stroke up to roughly 4.0. In some areas a 4.0 would be a 3.0 in other areas too. It's just such an odd thing to argue to me. If you are going to play tennis and want to be mediocre then pick some stroke you don't like and choose not to work on it. You can still win matches. Yay!

I mean I've seen people win at 4.0 with almost no strokes at all. They are very fit and just get the ball over the net.

In our area until several years ago when the USTA just decided to bump a truckload of 4.0s to 4.5 to even out numbers of players, a weak serve at 4.0 would have been a loss for sure about 80% of the time.

I guess maybe part of my aversion to this thread is I just don't understand why anyone aspires to be 3.5 and not 4.0. I guess there is always a portion of the rec population that for reasons of age or health will not advance, but for everyone else I don't get it. It always ticks me off when teams stack or throw matches to stay at their level just so they can make it to state or nationals. It's very common though. I find the whole mindset disturbing.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
In my experience, 3.5 players hit much harder groundstrokes than 4.0
In some cases, yes, they hit harder than Nadal.
Yesterday, I saw a massive 3.5 taking 100% swings at approach shots.
100%. They usually missed, but when he hit it in, it was hit 200% the speed of an ATP pro, and was unreturnable.
Yes, I have been to the US Open the last 5 years in a row, and know what I am talking about.

4.0 is mindful of hitting the ball in. 3.5 is not. 3.5 is going for the highlight reel every time.
Against a 3.5, the point is over much sooner. You either get a UE, or their ball is impossible to return,
since it's hit harder than Nadal. Nadal has to keep the ball in play to earn money. A 3.5 does not.
The entire goal of a 3.5 is to hit the ball as hard as he can. The idea of how to win a match is beyond his ken.
This is why 3.5 players want pushers burned alive.

This unassailable logic also translates to serving.
4.0 serve is a pattycake with 0% DF rate.
3.5 serve will be a rocket with tons of DFs
Click to expand...

This is friggin classic. 3.5 hits harder than Nadal lmao.
An average ATP pro forehand is i guess 70mph. So a 3.5 was hitting forehand around 140mph. Thats faster than 95% of pro first serve.
So what else do you have at your tennis club? An out of shape 3.5 run 100m dash in 5 sec?
 
J011yroger said:
Please play USTA this summer.

It's the only thing I have ever asked of you.

J
Click to expand...
It’s almost like his overpaid coach told him he’s a 3.5 after a couple months of practice and he’s never won a real, competitive USTA match in his life... crazy.

In my area TTPS would not be winning 3.5 USTA matches.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
The point is that you can advance to 4.0 without improving your serve.
You can weakly serve all the way to 4.0
For many aspiring 3.5 players (the vast majority of tennis players), that is valuable information.
It is the most overrated stroke rec tennis, which is a great discussion point.
You're welcome!
Click to expand...

So if your goal is not any higher than 3.5 or 4.0 you should just simply ignore the serve and not work on it at all?
How st*pid of an advice is that?
 
FiReFTW said:
So if your goal is not any higher than 3.5 or 4.0 you should just simply ignore the serve and not work on it at all?
How st*pid of an advice is that?
Click to expand...
It won't matter that much, that's for sure. You can weakly 2nd serve and get to 4.0.... You can work on your serve for its own sake, and to look cool. Many play for style points, which is why they hate the Pusher, who plays to win tennis. Since so few people can reliably punish a serve, your energy is best directed elsewhere, unless you can truly get to a 4.5 caliber serve. Your big serve won't even go in enough to make it worthwhile unless your playing several times a week, and practicing with a Hopper, just like pros. This may be why all the 4.0 players I've seen don't even bother to serve big. They just rarely DF with their safe easy serves.

4.5 serve or it's all the same.
 
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TimeToPlaySets said:
In my experience, 3.5 players hit much harder groundstrokes than 4.0
In some cases, yes, they hit harder than Nadal.
Yesterday, I saw a massive 3.5 taking 100% swings at approach shots.
100%. They usually missed, but when he hit it in, it was hit 200% the speed of an ATP pro, and was unreturnable.
Yes, I have been to the US Open the last 5 years in a row, and know what I am talking about.
Click to expand...

Dude! Are you out of your mind? 3.5 players hit harder than Nadal?

Come on man, your posts are a joke.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
It won't matter that much, that's for sure. You can weakly 2nd serve and get to 4.0.... You can work on your serve for its own sake, and to look cool. Many play for style points, which is why they hate the Pusher, who plays to win tennis. Since so few people can reliably punish a serve, your energy is best directed elsewhere, unless you can truly get to a 4.5 caliber serve. Your big serve won't even go in enough to make it worthwhile unless your playing several times a week, and practicing with a Hopper, just like pros. This may be why all the 4.0 players I've seen don't even bother to serve big. They just rarely DF with their safe easy serves.

4.5 serve or it's all the same.
Click to expand...

Its true that you can win many matches dinking it in, but its still beneficial to make it better if possible, any shot is always best to be better than it is.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
It won't matter that much, that's for sure. You can weakly 2nd serve and get to 4.0.... You can work on your serve for its own sake, and to look cool. Many play for style points, which is why they hate the Pusher, who plays to win tennis. Since so few people can reliably punish a serve, your energy is best directed elsewhere, unless you can truly get to a 4.5 caliber serve. Your big serve won't even go in enough to make it worthwhile unless your playing several times a week, and practicing with a Hopper, just like pros. This may be why all the 4.0 players I've seen don't even bother to serve big. They just rarely DF with their safe easy serves.

4.5 serve or it's all the same.
Click to expand...
I don’t have a big serve... just saying.

definitely don’t need a big jolly-type to reach 4.5... but you do need to be able to at least direct it in such a way that it can’t be consistently attacked (but of course you better have something else to back it up.

i’m pretty certain you could reach a decent 4.0 level with *only* an underhand serve (again, need to be able to place it well, and be able to back it up with something else)

arguably an overhead serve in the development phase is a liability, until you get it good enough to leverage the advantages an overhead serve gives you...

[edit] most folks (that i've taught) who don't have a reliable overhead serve AND don't put enough time into to practice and/or learn to spin it in... would do better just serving underhand, BUT they don't want to be teased about "not serving the right way", and would rather double fault games away (in lieu of one or two good serves that become service winners (imo mostly because the returner was surprised it went in, in the first place - an different way to "mix up the serves" :P)) - kinda like shaq and the underhand free throw.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
nytennisaddict said:
I don’t have a big serve... just saying.

definitely don’t need a big jolly-type to reach 4.5... but you do need to be able to at least direct it in such a way that it can’t be consistently attacked (but of course you better have something else to back it up.

i’m pretty certain you could reach a decent 4.0 level with *only* an underhand serve (again, need to be able to place it well, and be able to back it up with something else)

arguably an overhead serve in the development phase is a liability, until you get it good enough to leverage the advantages an overhead serve gives you...
Click to expand...
Disagree. You have a big serve. Enough to get you free points against a 3.5 or 4.0... Everyone is relative...so, Maybe it's not 5.0/ATP huuuuuge, but It is a big step above the 4.0 serving I've seen.
 
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nytennisaddict said:
I don’t have a big serve... just saying.
Click to expand...

TimeToPlaySets said:
Disagree. You have a big serve.
Click to expand...

FlipTable.jpg


J
 
I think there is something to it. A good serve is a big advantage but until you can hit it fair like at least 40% or so a technically good and big serve doesn't help you much.

If you hit your big serve 20% of the time you can just as well just frying pan grip it in.

All big hitting strategies require besides good mechanics also quite a bit of repetition to make it consistent enough.

Even if you have solid mechanics but only play once a week hitting big usually is not a winning strategy.

But if you have a consistent big serve it is a huge advantage.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Disagree. You have a big serve. Enough to get you free points against a 3.5 or 4.0... Everyone is relative...so, Maybe it's not 5.0/ATP huuuuuge, but It is a big step above the 4.0 serving I've seen.
Click to expand...

thx I appreciate the compliment, but the strength of my serve is not that I can hit 90-100mph,... it’s that I can hit 80-85 consistently to a 3.5-4.0’s weaker wing, with enough variety of pace/spin/direction to keep them from consistently settling into a solid return.

according to playsight, my biggest flat serve is probably only low 90s, which I only use 20% of the time (ie as a changeup, or if you come it to cut off the angle)

guys like jolly serve “big”, i’m guessing serve 110-120? jolly you ever get your serve clocked?
 
Ok, what I meant as big serve is a good serve. A weapon serve that will get you points. You have a good 4.5 serve. It is a paradigm step above a 4.0 serve.

. It's easier to hit back a flat serve than an 80 mph serve with side movement wide and placed perfectly. I'll gladly hit against a predictable big flat server any day. Way easier to return than a tricky varied serve. Plus, it rarely goes in. Even the best in the world can barely get over 50% success
 
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I'm still not understanding what the actual difference is between a 3.5 serve, 4.0 serve, 4.5 serve, etc. I know a (weak) 5.0 level player that hits his first serve pretty flat at about 70mph (it's basically a pancake serve). There are absolutely 3.5 players with better serves than this guy. But he would beat them 0/0.

At the rec level the most critical issue regarding the serve (first and second) is that your opponent can't attack it with any regularity. There aren't many 4.5-level players that get a lot of free points off of their serve... even when they're playing 4.5-level opponents. Sure, these folks are out there, but they're exceptions. It's not unlike the return - the critical issue isn't that you have a great offensive return, it's that you have a return that doesn't allow your opponent to easily attack.

I find that many rec players focus on red herrings: serve velocity, big return, winners... these are not particularly meaningful in the larger scheme of things.
 
navigator said:
I'm still not understanding what the actual difference is between a 3.5 serve, 4.0 serve, 4.5 serve, etc. I know a (weak) 5.0 level player that hits his first serve pretty flat at about 70mph (it's basically a pancake serve). There are absolutely 3.5 players with better serves than this guy. But he would beat them 0/0.

At the rec level the most critical issue regarding the serve (first and second) is that your opponent can't attack it with any regularity. There aren't many 4.5-level players that get a lot of free points off of their serve... even when they're playing 4.5-level opponents. Sure, these folks are out there, but they're exceptions. It's not unlike the return - the critical issue isn't that you have a great offensive return, it's that you have a return that doesn't allow your opponent to easily attack.

I find that many rec players focus on red herrings: serve velocity, big return, winners... these are not particularly meaningful in the larger scheme of things.
Click to expand...

Yes ... and in singles matches a 40 mph slice serve out wide to deuce court is often an ace. A 100+ mph serve that you block/slice back with a 1hbh against someone not coming in is usually "the start of a point".

In singles, other than getting aced (hardly ever high percentage in rec tennis), you have a lot of court to hit to to start the point. In doubles, the return lane narrows and they put a frickin net guy there on your 1hbh dtl block/slice return. If you have ever played doubles with a partner that brings consistent 1st serve heat, hard to argue that isn't effective. One of my favorite doubles partners hit a 90ish type first serve, but it was heavy ... spin that ate you up. My net game always looked better with him.

And yes, we all have 4.5 friends that can beat their serve to the net. :p
 
IMO the level of play will rise imensly, if a player will not go for a straight out winner on every shot, yet that seems quite often be the case in the top level of game. Differene ofcourse is, that those guys on the tour can pull some magic stuff every so often, rather than hit something fixed.

Like the Shwarzman bloke, who put up a campain, fought against Rafa also in really high level.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
Man, today i was playing with this dude rated at 3.5. He was hitting really hard, probably 300% as fast as an ATP pro. I have been to US open, i also watch AO, roland garros, and wimbledon for the past 10 years, so i know what i am talking about.
His first serve was unreturnable, clocking at around 135mph. His 2nd serve about 110, kick as high as my head.
I was standing with a 4.5 guy on one side, and he was hitting us off the court. But he is still struggling at his USTA league, and he might get downgraded in June. He kept losing matches to pushers and dinkers. Its really tough in a rec 3.5 league. He told me he might try his luck on the Futures tour.
 
nytennisaddict said:
guys like jolly serve “big”, i’m guessing serve 110-120? jolly you ever get your serve clocked?
Click to expand...

Not in a while, would like to go on a playsight court. On my best days I think I can go deep into the 120s, possibly flirt with 130 though I rarely go over 115 in doubles.

I have a video around somewhere of me hitting 121 with a wooden Pancho Gonzalez I bought for $3 in a thrift store.

J
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Disagree. You have a big serve. Enough to get you free points against a 3.5 or 4.0... Everyone is relative...so, Maybe it's not 5.0/ATP huuuuuge, but It is a big step above the 4.0 serving I've seen.
Click to expand...
thx, but i'm saying that my placement/variety is the determining factor to getting free points against 3.5-4.0.
i wouldn't be surprised if we did a playsight court thing, that you serve faster than me overall.
 
The underlying premise I'm seeing from OP is that "rec players lack consistent weapons", especially when it comes to punishing athletic pushers with inferior technique.

So he'll say stuff like "Push to win at 3.5" or "Serves below 4.5 level don't matter". The same can be said for topspin back hand. If the average 3.5 player doesn't have reliable offensive ground strokes, well then I can pop up slices all day on the backhand side and never be punished. I can have terrible volleys but so what? I'll just never stay at net and always retreat and chase down balls knowing every shot he hits, there's a 30% chance of going out/into the net. I'll just bunt the ball deep all day and treat this tennis match like 100 rounds of 40 yard dashes.

High level tennis is meant to give a winning advantage to the player dictating points rather than the guy defending. The problem is offensive tennis requires both athleticism (for proper preparation) and sound technique while defending requires mostly athleticism and little technique. At the club level, sound technique and proper preparation is severely lacking. But if a club player never practices a heavy out wide slice or approach DTL top spin backhand, they'll never be able to punish the pusher by developing proper high percentage offensive shots. This is the main reason why improvements in all facets of the game should never be discouraged.

The club player wishing to improve playing against the more athletic pusher has two options.
1. Push back and lose consistently because they're not as fast nor as experienced at pushing.
2. Make an earnest attempt to hit fundamentally sound shots and still lose, but experience in-game shot repetition.

Option 2 along with clinics and lessons are what eventually will push the club player to the next level.
 
FightMeAtTheNet said:
The underlying premise I'm seeing from OP is that "rec players lack consistent weapons", especially when it comes to punishing athletic pushers with inferior technique.

So he'll say stuff like "Push to win at 3.5" or "Serves below 4.5 level don't matter". The same can be said for topspin back hand. If the average 3.5 player doesn't have reliable offensive ground strokes, well then I can pop up slices all day on the backhand side and never be punished. I can have terrible volleys but so what? I'll just never stay at net and always retreat and chase down balls knowing every shot he hits, there's a 30% chance of going out/into the net. I'll just bunt the ball deep all day and treat this tennis match like 100 rounds of 40 yard dashes.

High level tennis is meant to give a winning advantage to the player dictating points rather than the guy defending. The problem is offensive tennis requires both athleticism (for proper preparation) and sound technique while defending requires mostly athleticism and little technique. At the club level, sound technique and proper preparation is severely lacking. But if a club player never practices a heavy out wide slice or approach DTL top spin backhand, they'll never be able to punish the pusher by developing proper high percentage offensive shots. This is the main reason why improvements in all facets of the game should never be discouraged.

The club player wishing to improve playing against the more athletic pusher has two options.
1. Push back and lose consistently because they're not as fast nor as experienced at pushing.
2. Make an earnest attempt to hit fundamentally sound shots and still lose, but experience in-game shot repetition.

Option 2 along with clinics and lessons are what eventually will push the club player to the next level.
Click to expand...

You didn't list cry about it on the internet as an option?

J
 
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