Iga's double bounce: I wouldn't have conceded it neither. Would you??

Would you have conceded?

  • Yes.

  • No.

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pabletion

pabletion

Hall of Fame
Iga gets hate, a LOT. Not sure why, american girls apparently cant stand her (maybe its bc she continuously kicks their behind???). The new one is that, in a controversial "double bounce" yesterday against Emma Navarro, Iga should've conceded the point, aknowledge the ball was "not up".
MY TAKE as a TENNIS PLAYER is that she (Iga) could NEVER be absolutely sure wether she got it or not. If Emma wasnt sure, Iga absolutely could not be sure if she is in a full sprint full stretch barely getting to the ball.
if you play tennis, you have been there. You cant be sure. You might believe or "feel" you got to the ball, your opponent might think otherwise. In a GS (or any pro tournament) its 100% the umpires responsibility. Ive read a lot of post claiming Iga shouldve conceded bc SHE KNOWS. No. Again, its impossible to be certain in such a close call.

Heres the point in question:


Apparently, Navarro had the chance to ask for vid review BUT since she played on, she waved that chance....

Would YOU have conceded? I 100% would have NOT conceded.
 
pabletion said:
Iga gets hate, a LOT. Not sure why, american girls apparently cant stand her (maybe its bc she continuously kicks their behind???). The new one is that, in a controversial "double bounce" yesterday against Emma Navarro, Iga should've conceded the point, aknowledge the ball was "not up".
MY TAKE as a TENNIS PLAYER is that she (Iga) could NEVER be absolutely sure wether she got it or not. If Emma wasnt sure, Iga absolutely could not be sure if she is in a full sprint full stretch barely getting to the ball.
if you play tennis, you have been there. You cant be sure. You might believe or "feel" you got to the ball, your opponent might think otherwise. In a GS (or any pro tournament) its 100% the umpires responsibility. Ive read a lot of post claiming Iga shouldve conceded bc SHE KNOWS. No. Again, its impossible to be certain in such a close call.

Heres the point in question:


Apparently, Navarro had the chance to ask for vid review BUT since she played on, she waved that chance....

Would YOU have conceded? I 100% would have NOT conceded.
Click to expand...
Not Iga’s fault.
 
pabletion said:
Iga gets hate, a LOT. Not sure why, american girls apparently cant stand her (maybe its bc she continuously kicks their behind???). The new one is that, in a controversial "double bounce" yesterday against Emma Navarro, Iga should've conceded the point, aknowledge the ball was "not up".
MY TAKE as a TENNIS PLAYER is that she (Iga) could NEVER be absolutely sure wether she got it or not. If Emma wasnt sure, Iga absolutely could not be sure if she is in a full sprint full stretch barely getting to the ball.
if you play tennis, you have been there. You cant be sure. You might believe or "feel" you got to the ball, your opponent might think otherwise. In a GS (or any pro tournament) its 100% the umpires responsibility. Ive read a lot of post claiming Iga shouldve conceded bc SHE KNOWS. No. Again, its impossible to be certain in such a close call.

Heres the point in question:


Apparently, Navarro had the chance to ask for vid review BUT since she played on, she waved that chance....

Would YOU have conceded? I 100% would have NOT conceded.
Click to expand...
Question for you: have you ever played the game at any competitive level? When growing up playing, it‘s one of these things that‘s a big deal, i.e., you always admit it when it’s obvious like in this case or you look bad in front of everyone. It’s hard to explain to those who’ve never played.
 
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pabletion said:
Iga gets hate, a LOT. Not sure why, american girls apparently cant stand her (maybe its bc she continuously kicks their behind???). The new one is that, in a controversial "double bounce" yesterday against Emma Navarro, Iga should've conceded the point, aknowledge the ball was "not up".
MY TAKE as a TENNIS PLAYER is that she (Iga) could NEVER be absolutely sure wether she got it or not. If Emma wasnt sure, Iga absolutely could not be sure if she is in a full sprint full stretch barely getting to the ball.
if you play tennis, you have been there. You cant be sure. You might believe or "feel" you got to the ball, your opponent might think otherwise. In a GS (or any pro tournament) its 100% the umpires responsibility. Ive read a lot of post claiming Iga shouldve conceded bc SHE KNOWS. No. Again, its impossible to be certain in such a close call.

Heres the point in question:


Apparently, Navarro had the chance to ask for vid review BUT since she played on, she waved that chance....

Would YOU have conceded? I 100% would have NOT conceded.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but if its that obvious then you concede - especially if the match isn't anywhere near close

That's why people still love someone like Rafa more than others ;)
 
ghostofMecir said:
Question for you: have you ever played the game at any competitive level? When growing up playing, it‘s one of these things that‘s a big deal, i.e., you always admit it when it’s obvious like in this case or you look bad in front of everyone.
Click to expand...
This is an interesting topic. My coach taught me to let your opponent count wrong score in your favor when they forget..... Tricks with shoes while heavy breathing etc. When I played some tournaments I did not use it, but some players tried to use it on me haha.

Or when I played squash League, between the games Guy went on toilett longer than he should etc. ...... People have no shame.
 
Iga has a lot of deserved blame for questionable sportsmanship but this isn’t one. The point wasn’t replayed on the big screen (I believe) so she didn’t know 100% it was a double bounce, why would she gift the point away in a slam QF at a crucial moment without seeing and knowing for sure?

Navarro didn’t challenge straight away unlike the Shelton/Sonego match. So it wasn’t up for debate. Sucks for Emma but also let’s be honest, she wasn’t winning that match even if that call went her way.
 
ghostofMecir said:
Question for you: have you ever played the game at any competitive level? When growing up playing, it‘s one of these things that‘s a big deal, i.e., you always admit it when it’s obvious like in this case or you look bad in front of everyone. It’s had to explain to those who’ve never played.
Click to expand...

Yes.

And have had that similar situation many times, for and against. With and without umps. Sometimes its too close to tell. You barely hit the ball w tip of the frame theres no way you can tell.

Im not saying DONT CONCEDE NEVER. Im saying I get it. She mightve thought she got to it legit.

Yes it is unfair that theres no video revision by default, if something like this would happen in a match point it would be horrendous.

I sustain that its in no way Igas fault.
 
ghostofMecir said:
Question for you: have you ever played the game at any competitive level? When growing up playing, it‘s one of these things that‘s a big deal, i.e., you always admit it when it’s obvious like in this case or you look bad in front of everyone. It’s had to explain to those who’ve never played.
Click to expand...
yourtennisfit said:
Sorry, but if its that obvious then you concede - especially if the match isn't anywhere near close

That's why people still love someone like Rafa more than others ;)
Click to expand...

You’re both saying “when it’s that obvious you concede” that’s because the YouTube video has a million reviews of what happened. That wasn’t played out in the stadium, the question wasn’t posed to Swiatek to concede the point in that moment. She may have not felt the double bounce. Why would she concede a point at a crucial time without knowing 100% it was a double bounce? Without seeing multiple angles that you and I have seen but she didn’t in that moment?

Come on.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
You’re both saying “when it’s that obvious you concede” that’s because the YouTube video has a million reviews of what happened. That wasn’t played out in the stadium, the question wasn’t posed to Swiatek to concede the point in that moment. She may have not felt the double bounce. Why would she concede a point at a crucial time without knowing 100% it was a double bounce? Without seeing multiple angles that you and I have seen but she didn’t in that moment?

Come on.
Click to expand...

You are telling me that an athlete that plays a hundred shots like this will not know?
Sorry, but that just tells me you never played yourself really. You know very well once you even miss it by a millisecond
 
yourtennisfit said:
You are telling me that an athlete that plays a hundred shots like this will not know?
Sorry, but that just tells me you never played yourself really. You know very well once you even miss it by a millisecond
Click to expand...
Lmao, I’ve played tennis many times, I’m no professional athlete yes but I would want to see a replay with 100% confirmation before I concede a point when I have a break point opportunity to go up the break to make a slam SF and earn an extra $200,000.
Wouldn’t you want confirmation before you give up your chance?
No?
You’d just gift the point away without seeing it again, that the chair umpire is wrong too?
 
SinneGOAT said:
Love how the thumbnail shows the ball like .1mm off of her frame to make it look like she got it, vs a few minuscule frames earlier where you clearly see the ball compressing on the court in front of her frame. Gross behavior from Iga.
Click to expand...
None of those frames were played to Swiatek or in the stadium. Just to us viewers at home. She wasn’t asked to concede the point or if it was a double bounce. Why would you throw away $200,000 and a SF spot when you didn’t get confirmation it was a double bounce? Navarro should have stopped the point like Sonego did 3 hours later on that very court.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
None of those frames were played to Swiatek or in the stadium. Just to us viewers at home. She wasn’t asked to concede the point or if it was a double bounce. Why would you throw away $200,000 and a SF spot when you didn’t get confirmation it was a double bounce? Navarro should have stopped the point like Sonego did 3 hours later on that very court.
Click to expand...
Iga had that match in her backpocket don’t even pretend she was throwing away the match over one measly double bounce lol. And sometimes people don’t always have the clarity to stop the point as something happens, I can’t count the number of times in doubles where I know a serve is out but I can’t call cause my reflex is to hit it so my partner has to make the call. Just don’t act like Iga was barely holding on and scrapping for every point, she was crushing Emma lol.

And plus is cheating ok if you’re gonna make 200K and secure another AO title? Some people really need to retake ethics.
 
SinneGOAT said:
Iga had that match in her backpocket don’t even pretend she was throwing away the match over one measly double bounce lol. And sometimes people don’t always have the clarity to stop the point as something happens, I can’t count the number of times in doubles where I know a serve is out but I can’t call cause my reflex is to hit it so my partner has to make the call. Just don’t act like Iga was barely holding on and scrapping for every point, she was crushing Emma lol.

And plus is cheating ok if you’re gonna make 200K and secure another AO title? Some people really need to retake ethics.
Click to expand...
Swiatek continued the point, she didn’t flinch or stop like she knew it was a double bounce. She continued the point. I truly believe she didn’t know that was a double bounce so why on earth would she give up the point? Especially without seeing a replay of it to confirm it was? I’d want to see it for sure before I risk $200k.

I feel awful for Emma, she got dudded. But that’s on the rules, the review system and Asderaki Moore. It’s not on Iga. And it’s not cheating.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
Swiatek continued the point, she didn’t flinch like she knew it was a double bounce. She continued the point. I truly believe she didn’t know that was a double bounce and why on earth would she give up the point without seeing a replay of it to confirm it was?

I feel awful for Emma, she got dudded. But that’s on the rules, the review system and Asderaki Moore. It’s not on Iga.
Click to expand...
If by continue the point you mean clearly paused and body language suggested she was not 100% sure she got it but when she saw Emma still going she continued, then yeah she continued the point. And the umpire, mostly because the umpire was a massive idiot in this moment, wouldn’t stop the point to contest the double bounce and get a replay. But from Iga’s body language and playing tennis for almost 2 decades yes a good amount of the time you can feel when a ball has bounced twice, though who knows maybe I’ve played longer than Iga lol. She has a history of not exactly being the most honest tennis player.
 
SinneGOAT said:
If by continue the point you mean clearly paused and body language suggested she was not 100% sure she got it but when she saw Emma still going she continued, then yeah she continued the point. And the umpire, mostly because the umpire was a massive idiot in this moment, wouldn’t stop the point to contest the double bounce and get a replay. But from Iga’s body language and playing tennis for almost 2 decades yes a good amount of the time you can feel when a ball has bounced twice, though who knows maybe I’ve played longer than Iga lol. She has a history of not exactly being the most honest tennis player.
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I guess we have different interpretations because to me she was waiting to see if that ball dropped over the line and land in, not to wait for a call for a double bounce.

I’m just saying, blame the review system, blame the rules, blame Asderaki-Moore, I am not blaming Iga for this one.

Navarro should’ve challenged straight up. Sonego knew the rules and did it 2 hours later. Somehow the billionaire heiress did not.
 
Any pro-player (or high 4.5 and above really) knows exactly what is happening to the ball as soon as it touches/leaves their racket; its a feel, experience, 10,000 hrs+ on the court thing: she knew. This one wasn't even close as when there is a meeting of ball/court/racket that sometimes happens, this ball was on the rise after the second bounce.

I don't mind Iga, seems nicer off court than on the court; I'll never get over the handwaving thing though. This is also the pros and it's pretty ingrained to be cut throat from your first moment on tour, plenty of stories about younger players getting worked over by seasoned pros on stuff like this. That being said I could see the 'play on until you hear from the official' being the default rather than call it on yourself nice-guy approach.

Emma should have stopped and challenged, the officials should have a look by default on these close one, if it happens on a crucial point that is annoying we don't use the footage we have to get it right.
 
teckid said:
Any pro-player (or high 4.5 and above really) knows exactly what is happening to the ball as soon as it touches/leaves their racket; its a feel, experience, 10,000 hrs+ on the court thing: she knew. This one wasn't even close as when there is a meeting of ball/court/racket that sometimes happens, this ball was on the rise after the second bounce.

I don't mind Iga, seems nicer off court than on the court; I'll never get over the handwaving thing though. This is also the pros and it's pretty ingrained to be cut throat from your first moment on tour, plenty of stories about younger players getting worked over by seasoned pros on stuff like this. That being said I could see the 'play on until you hear from the official' being the default rather than call it on yourself nice-guy approach.

Emma should have stopped and challenged, the officials should have a look by default on these close one, if it happens on a crucial point that is annoying we don't use the footage we have to get it right.
Click to expand...
There was a case last year. Kalinskaya challenged after Haddad Maias ball hitting her own side of court before bouncing over to Kalinskaya side. Officials look at the slow motion for a few minutes and still ruled against kalinskaya. Maia took that point very happily. This was just a few days after the same thing happening to FAA. draper got hammered on social media for saying he didn't know what happened to the ball. I'm all for fair play but afraid controversies will always find the way into tennis.
 
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People are so certain that Iga knew for sure it was a double bounce and then mock her mercilessly for it when the ump didn't catch it and Renee Stubbs reporting at courtside didn't catch it. The casual cruelty and righteous indignation people aim at everyone but themselves is truly sad.
 
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teckid said:
Any pro-player (or high 4.5 and above really) knows exactly what is happening to the ball as soon as it touches/leaves their racket; its a feel, experience, 10,000 hrs+ on the court thing: she knew. This one wasn't even close as when there is a meeting of ball/court/racket that sometimes happens, this ball was on the rise after the second bounce..
Click to expand...
This. There is no way she didn't know. You can also tell based on the spin coming off the ball.
 
I guess players could take the position that some calls are going to go against them, and some for them, so just stay out of all decisions. But I admire the players that call against themselves. And not the ones who get undeserved cheers by kicking out a ball mark before the umpire was going to come down and overrule anyway.
 
It's also 'truly sad," that tennis is at it's core a sportsmanship sport that is built on principles of courtesy and goodwill: 99% of the playing population plays without line judges and has to make their own calls. To not expect someone to call their own double bounce is as atrocious as calling a ball 6 inches inside the line out. To be frank, the courtesy and goodwill expected of players it is what makes the sport at all levels a step above many other sports, especially at the rec level. People can claim a professional doesn't know the difference of a ball strike, but that is flimsy at most--they know exactly what type of ball is coming off their opponents racket from 40ft away in an instant yet can't tell when a ball they are striking is a not-up, I don't buy it.

Also sad when a player in public recorded view is captured repeatedly making the same self-owned errors in judgment to call against themselves (regardless of the score, stage in match, moment, etc) and brings an inherent bad vibe to surround them, total bummer to have it keep happening.
 
I think this is ridiculous right. There is no way Swiatek didn't know of the double bounce. Not a single way. Swiatek showing her true nature once again.
 
ghostofMecir said:
Question for you: have you ever played the game at any competitive level? When growing up playing, it‘s one of these things that‘s a big deal, i.e., you always admit it when it’s obvious like in this case or you look bad in front of everyone. It’s had to explain to those who’ve never played.
Click to expand...

Rennae Stubbs & Caroline Wozniacki both played at a pretty high level.
Both of them, on the ESPN telecast, said you can't tell whether you got the ball up or not.

So I'll believe the Major Champions.
 
yourtennisfit said:
You are telling me that an athlete that plays a hundred shots like this will not know?
Sorry, but that just tells me you never played yourself really. You know very well once you even miss it by a millisecond
Click to expand...

Yes. because Stubbs & Wozniacki both said "Iga probably couldn't tell" on the ESPN broadcast.
 
Beacon Hill said:
I guess players could take the position that some calls are going to go against them, and some for them, so just stay out of all decisions. But I admire the players that call against themselves. And not the ones who get undeserved cheers by kicking out a ball mark before the umpire was going to come down and overrule anyway.
Click to expand...
I'm not the the biggest novak fan but he has immediately conceded points to Nadal at the FO multiple times. Respect.
 
pabletion said:
Iga gets hate, a LOT. Not sure why, american girls apparently cant stand her (maybe its bc she continuously kicks their behind???). The new one is that, in a controversial "double bounce" yesterday against Emma Navarro, Iga should've conceded the point, aknowledge the ball was "not up".
MY TAKE as a TENNIS PLAYER is that she (Iga) could NEVER be absolutely sure wether she got it or not. If Emma wasnt sure, Iga absolutely could not be sure if she is in a full sprint full stretch barely getting to the ball.
if you play tennis, you have been there. You cant be sure. You might believe or "feel" you got to the ball, your opponent might think otherwise. In a GS (or any pro tournament) its 100% the umpires responsibility. Ive read a lot of post claiming Iga shouldve conceded bc SHE KNOWS. No. Again, its impossible to be certain in such a close call.

Heres the point in question:


Apparently, Navarro had the chance to ask for vid review BUT since she played on, she waved that chance....

Would YOU have conceded? I 100% would have NOT conceded.
Click to expand...
The announcers said there is no VAR at the AO. Only at the US open.
 
Iga gets the hate due to her history of cheating.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Unsure about this call, but i wouldn't expect Iga to concede even if she DID know 100% that it was a double bounce.

When she was guilty of the racket waving/tapping/hinderance, etc (which she was doing intentionally, it can't be done otherwise),
she claimed she was unaware.

That's just how she rolls...
 
Purestriker said:
I have heard Stubbs say otherwise in her pod. For example, the FO match Mladenovic against Siegmund.
Click to expand...

I just know what I heard her say last night.

I think people don't realize that any Yes/No decision has two ways to be wrong, and those two ways have very different probabilities.

If you feel it not up, you're almost always going to be right.
But if you feel you got it up, you might still be wrong.

And all these clubs players / TW-board posters who say they always know: How do you KNOW you always know?
You are sure you got it up, and you play on and don't call it. But can you be SURE it didn't bounce twice without video ? No.
So you have a bias in that you don't know what you don't know.
 
It's simple. If you had played you would have known. It's not about logic, probability, science fiction or whatever you might think it is. It's about being in the situations and learning from that.
 
For gods sake have some ethics. You did not win the point and concede it. That is what makes tennis at any level such a great sport. You earn your points and if you don’t then you admit it.
 
Windsor2 said:
It's simple. If you had played you would have known. It's not about logic, probability, science fiction or whatever you might think it is. It's about being in the situations and learning from that.
Click to expand...

But my point is how do you learn WITHOUT feedback.

I would bet anything that you've had shots you "knew" were up. And you called them up 100% in good faith.
However without video review, you don't KNOW you were right. And you get no feedback on what "good" feels like.
You think you know, and that creates a positive feedback loop so you think you're right. But you don't know that.
And I don't think you're doing anything bad, or in bad faith. So it IS about logic & probabilities. It's why so many humans make the same mistakes over and over.

The fact was the CHAIR thought it was up last night, and the video from the chair isn't clear that it's not up. (Video from across the net is 100% clear that it's not)
 
“It should be allowed to see after the point even if you play,” she told reporters after the match. "It happened so fast. You hit the shot, and she hits it back, and you’re just, ‘Oh, I guess I’m playing’.


I think the rule is that she should have stopped playing
 
Connor35 said:
But my point is how do you learn WITHOUT feedback.

I would bet anything that you've had shots you "knew" were up. And you called them up 100% in good faith.
However without video review, you don't KNOW you were right. And you get no feedback on what "good" feels like.
You think you know, and that creates a positive feedback loop so you think you're right. But you don't know that.
And I don't think you're doing anything bad, or in bad faith. So it IS about logic & probabilities. It's why so many humans make the same mistakes over and over.

The fact was the CHAIR thought it was up last night, and the video from the chair isn't clear that it's not up. (Video from across the net is 100% clear that it's not)
Click to expand...
The more skilled the player is, the better their feel for these shots. That's why I find it very hard to believe that someone who is as good as she is couldn't tell. If she were a beginner or intermediate player I could give her the benefit of the doubt and that she truly believed she got it
 
Rennae Stubbs on ESPN saying Navarro had to stop the point immediately in order to challenge and get a video review of the double bounce. Since she played out the point, it can’t be reviewed.
 
Connor35 said:
But my point is how do you learn WITHOUT feedback.

I would bet anything that you've had shots you "knew" were up. And you called them up 100% in good faith.
However without video review, you don't KNOW you were right. And you get no feedback on what "good" feels like.
You think you know, and that creates a positive feedback loop so you think you're right. But you don't know that.
And I don't think you're doing anything bad, or in bad faith. So it IS about logic & probabilities. It's why so many humans make the same mistakes over and over.

The fact was the CHAIR thought it was up last night, and the video from the chair isn't clear that it's not up. (Video from across the net is 100% clear that it's not)
Click to expand...
It's clear because standing so close to the ball you can actually realize very well what's going on. I can't say the same for what's happening in my opponents court even if I have a very strong belief in general of what happened. In my court it's never in doubt.
 
Windsor2 said:
It's clear because standing so close to the ball you can actually realize very well what's going on. I can't say the same for what's happening in my opponents court even if I have a very strong belief in general of what happened. In my court it's never in doubt.
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That is because you don't run fast at pro levels.
 
Connor35 said:
I just know what I heard her say last night.

I think people don't realize that any Yes/No decision has two ways to be wrong, and those two ways have very different probabilities.

If you feel it not up, you're almost always going to be right.
But if you feel you got it up, you might still be wrong.

And all these clubs players / TW-board posters who say they always know: How do you KNOW you always know?
You are sure you got it up, and you play on and don't call it. But can you be SURE it didn't bounce twice without video ? No.
So you have a bias in that you don't know what you don't know.
Click to expand...
I am not talking about a club player. I am talking about a world class athlete with multiple slams. I also happened to like and respect Iga, but the junior tactics are starting to pile up.
 
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