Ignorance of tie-breaker rules

During the second set of a women's 3.0 league doubles match, the two teams got to 6-6. When discussing what to do next, one member from Team X said, "We need to play a tie-breaker", and one member from Team Y said, "No, we need to play another game." The other two members on the court were silent. The member from Team X admits she's not sure what to do, and feels that the member from Team Y seems to know what to do, and agrees to do what she says. So they play another game, which consists of multiple deuces and takes awhile. During the game, the other matches finish and a member from one of the teams begins watching the final game that is going on. Team Y wins the game, and the set. As both teams are leaving the court, the spectator asks what the final score was, and they reply, "6-4, 7-6". The spectator says that doesn't make any sense since they weren't playing a tie-breaker. The captains of both teams are called over, and decide that the last game should not count, and they should play a tie-breaker instead. All agree that the tie-breaker will start at 1-0 in Team Y's favor, since that team won an entire game. Team Y ends up winning the tie-breaker, and therefore, the score of "7-6" stands for the second set.

Both captains are obviously frustrated that their teammates do not know what to do when the score is tied at 6-6. Team X's players have been playing for 6 years, and 2 years. Team Y's players have been playing for 3 years and 1 year. The captains say that they have gone over tie-breakers repeatedly in practice and drills, and find it very difficult to understand how the players did not know what to do. All parties involved agree later that the players should have consulted the captains once the initial disagreement took place.

Having said that, how should this situation have been handled? Specifically, my questions are as follows:

1. Should the initial score stand, since a mistake was made? In the Tennis Rules, there are a few places which address what to do when mistakes are made, and they all say that the scores that were played before the mistake was discovered should stand as is. But does this apply when the scoring is so different -- i.e., a game vs. a tie-breaker?
2. Should the spectator have questioned the score, since spectators are not supposed to be involved at all? Remember the spectator did not get involved until the game (and the match) was supposedly over.
3. Should the tie-breaker have started at 1-0?
4. What should be done about the players not knowing the rules?
 
Very bizzare. How could somebody play tennis for 6 years and not know when to play a tiebreaker?

1)In any case, my understanding is that points played in good faith should be allowed to stand. Once both teams agreed to play another game to decide the set instead of a tiebreaker, the results stand after the match is over.

2)The spectator should not be involved in the match.
3) no replay
4) Captains and rule books should be consulted if a situation arises before points are played out. Players need to learn basic scoring for league play!
 
Agree with Goober, except that here players aren't allowed to consult anyone about anything. Players should keep the league rules in their bag and look it up. Thank goodness the teams figured something out that made sense. A problem like this could not easily be fixed in our league, with 90-minute timed matches, because time would expire and you wouldn't have time for a do-over.

What you describe re ignorance of basic local league rules is, sadly, not unusual. I have had many opponents get to deuce early in the match and holler across the net, "We're doing no-ad scoring, right?" Uh, no. Not now, not ever.

Oh, and Welcome Aboard, StressedCaptain!
 
Hah, when I saw the first post I thought StressedCaptain was Cindy posting under a new alias. SC, glad to see that the same team that won the 13th game also won the tiebreaker.

This is such a strange rules question. The rule is definitely that points played in good faith should count, but that rule usually applies to mistakes like calling out the wrong score, serving to the wrong side, or forgetting to change sides. In this case, the players weren't even playing the right kind of game, so how can the score be "counted"? What if the teams thought they had to simply spin the racquet to decide the match? Would that result count because it was in good faith? (I really don't know the answer.)

If Team Y was the serving team for the 13th game (and thereby held their serve), it would have been unfair to count that game as the tiebreaker, so I think the teams did the right thing, even if they had to get a rule clarification from the captains. I know coaching is not allowed during matches, but does that rule apply to asking for a rule clarification?

I don't think Team Y should have started one point up in the tiebreaker, especially since it was Team Y that suggested the errant 13th game.
 
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From the ITF rules of tennis (included in the USTA rule book):

If in error a standard game is started at 6 games all, when it was previously
agreed that the set would be a “Tie-break set”, the error shall be corrected
immediately if only one point has been played. If the error is discovered after
the second point is in play, the set will continue as an “Advantage set” until
the score reaches 8 games all (or a higher even number), when a tie-break
game shall be played.
 
From the ITF rules of tennis (included in the USTA rule book):

If in error a standard game is started at 6 games all, when it was previously
agreed that the set would be a “Tie-break set”, the error shall be corrected
immediately if only one point has been played. If the error is discovered after
the second point is in play, the set will continue as an “Advantage set” until
the score reaches 8 games all (or a higher even number), when a tie-break
game shall be played.


I am not sure this would apply in this case, because it was not previously agreed that a tiebreak would be played. In fact the agreement reached by both sides was that a tiebreak would not be played at 6-6.
 
Thanks kylebarendrick!

So they should have continued playing until one team won by 2 games over the other. That makes sense. Thank you.

But I don't really understand the final part of the rule -- why do they only play a tie-break game after the score reaches 8 games (or a higher even number) all? If Team X won the next game, and the score is 7 games all, why not play the tie-break game then?
 
I am not sure this would apply in this case, because it was not previously agreed that a tiebreak would be played. In fact the agreement reached by both sides was that a tiebreak would not be played at 6-6.

Previously agreed in this sense, means that:

1) In a tournament it's posted that this is the scoring method. (in mostly all cases it's just assumed, nobody does it any other way anymore)

2) In league play the particular scoring method is announced ahead of times in the rules. (it's assumed that in a 6 game set, you play a tiebreaker, because nobody does it the old way anymore)

So in league play it's assumed that you play a tiebreaker, so this rule about going to 8-8 would actually stand.

However once you've shaken hands and if you agree that one side has won fairly, the match is over.
 
Thanks kylebarendrick!

So they should have continued playing until one team won by 2 games over the other. That makes sense. Thank you.

But I don't really understand the final part of the rule -- why do they only play a tie-break game after the score reaches 8 games (or a higher even number) all? If Team X won the next game, and the score is 7 games all, why not play the tie-break game then?

I've wondered about this too. I've decided to believe the reason is so that in doubles each player has to serve once before the tiebreak begins.

And TaxVictim? If you knew how much trouble I had registering when I first joined this board, you'd know I'd never bother trying to post under an alias!
 
Thanks kylebarendrick!

So they should have continued playing until one team won by 2 games over the other. That makes sense. Thank you.

But I don't really understand the final part of the rule -- why do they only play a tie-break game after the score reaches 8 games (or a higher even number) all? If Team X won the next game, and the score is 7 games all, why not play the tie-break game then?

a) In doubles everyone gets to serve again

b) You'll end up on the same sides as you would of been at 6-6 (which could make a difference if you're outdoors)
 
So, how did they decide who would serve in this "extra" game?

Something tells me that whoever was pressing the "let's play another game" ploy knew what they were doing, and probably determined who they wanted to serve and which side of the court also.
 
Great find, kylebarendrick! That lead me to this Comment in the USTA rules that might be more appropro to SC's case, especially if the parties had shaken hands as if the match were over:

USTA Comment 27.7: The tournament announced that a Match
Tiebreak would be played in lieu of the third set. The players split
sets. With Player A ahead 7-5, Player A comes to the net to shake hands
with Player B. Player B refuses to shake hands because Player B
contends that a Match Tiebreak is not over. What should happen?

The players should keep on playing because the Tiebreak is not yet over.

USTA Comment 27.8: Same situation as in USTA Comment 27.7
except that Player B shakes hands. The players report to the Referee
that Player A won the Tiebreak 7-5. Does Player A win the match?

Yes. By shaking hands the players have acknowledged that they
agreed the match was over. A 7-point Match Tiebreak was played in
good faith, so Player A wins the match
, and the final set score
should be recorded 1-0(5). See Section 2 of The Code.


I realize that SC's case was a tiebreak to determine the set, and this comment has to do with a case where the parties have split sets, but the final point is that the parties played the agreed tiebreak in good faith, and shook hands on the outcome, so the match is over. So, I've changed my mind and now think the tiebreak "game" should stand.

SC, think of it this way: what if this tiebreak tomfoolery had occurred on the first set, and the players then went on to play a second set. Would they then go back and try to correct the outcome of the first set because of the mistake?

In any event, Team Y won either way, so no harm done.
 
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.

USTA Comment 27.8: Same situation as in USTA Comment 27.7
except that Player B shakes hands. The players report to the Referee
that Player A won the Tiebreak 7-5. Does Player A win the match?

Yes. By shaking hands the players have acknowledged that they
agreed the match was over. A 7-point Match Tiebreak was played in
good faith, so Player A wins the match
, and the final set score
should be recorded 1-0(5). See Section 2 of The Code.[/I]

I realize that SC's case was a tiebreak to determine the set, and this comment has to do with a case where the parties have split sets, but the final point is that the parties played the agreed tiebreak in good faith, and shook hands on the outcome, so the match is over. So, I've changed my mind and now think the tiebreak "game" should stand.

.

That's basically what I said in post #2 section (1). The ITF rule does not apply in this case because both sides agreed how to play the last game, played it in good faith, shook hands and went to go report the score. The match is over.
 
That lead me to this Comment in the USTA rules that might be more appropro to SC's case, especially if the parties had shaken hands as if the match were over:
But, I think the underlying assumption concerning "both shook hands and agreed the match was over" is that all are coming to shake hands with clean hands.

I am not so sure that agreeing to something where one party has the facts (knows the rules, knows what's going on, is driving the solution to the quandary), or simply in a state of doubt recommends a solution that favors them, and the other party does not (is simply uninformed about what to do, doesn't know what their options are, or the rules), necessarily means that the "match is over" agreement should stand.

Someone had to have known that a tie-break was in order. 4 players? nobody knew? Its hard to believe. And if the strongest server on the court suddenly found themselves serving the extra game, then something is very fishy.

I guess if I was one of the captains, if it wasn't obvious someone had a serving advantage or a fair means was used to determine who would serve (like a racquet spin) during the "extra game" I would have agreed to the 1-0 score to start the tie-break which is very reasonable, otherwise, I would have agreed to 0-0 to start the tie-break.

But, your analysis and use of the comparison is right on.
 
But, I think the underlying assumption concerning "both shook hands and agreed the match was over" is that all are coming to shake hands with clean hands.

I am not so sure that agreeing to something where one party has the facts (knows the rules, knows what's going on, is driving the solution to the quandary), or simply in a state of doubt recommends a solution that favors them, and the other party does not (is simply uninformed about what to do, doesn't know what their options are, or the rules), necessarily means that the "match is over" agreement should stand.

Someone had to have known that a tie-break was in order. 4 players? nobody knew? Its hard to believe. And if the strongest server on the court suddenly found themselves serving the extra game, then something is very fishy.

I guess if I was one of the captains, if it wasn't obvious someone had a serving advantage or a fair means was used to determine who would serve (like a racquet spin) during the "extra game" I would have agreed to the 1-0 score to start the tie-break which is very reasonable, otherwise, I would have agreed to 0-0 to start the tie-break.

But, your analysis and use of the comparison is right on.

Put it this way- if there USTA official were on hand at the match and it went down exactly as described. The ruling would be match is over. It doesn't matter what one team may have known or possibly intended. There is no way the official would start a new tiebreaker with one team up 1-0.
 
Re tiebreak ignorance: I bet there are plenty of rec players who don't know who serves in the first game of a set after a tiebreak.

:hand shoots into air:

The way I think of it is that the tiebreak counts as the service game of the player/team that served first in the tiebreak. Once the tiebreak is completed, it is therefore the other player's/team's turn to serve. Since the score is odd (7-6), they switch sides.

It took me three years to learn to remember it.
 
Put it this way- if there USTA official were on hand at the match and it went down exactly as described. The ruling would be match is over. It doesn't matter what one team may have known or possibly intended. There is no way the official would start a new tiebreaker with one team up 1-0.
I agree. But what if the captains actually did that by turning to each other saying "what would a USTA official do?" (which is exactly what I would do if I was captain) but couldn't agree on what the USTA official would do, what the rules are, or how to apply the rules in this case, then we are back to the reasonable resolution the captains came up with, but I still would have fought for 0-0 if I thought gamesmanship was involved by anyone on either team.

I really dislike people making up rules on the fly in tournaments and league play, and entering into agreements (unless its social matches) and prefer to know the rules and apply them as much as possible, because like the Code says, the game is better that way.
 
During the second set of a women's 3.0 league doubles match, the two teams got to 6-6. When discussing what to do next, one member from Team X said, "We need to play a tie-breaker", and one member from Team Y said, "No, we need to play another game." The other two members on the court were silent. The member from Team X admits she's not sure what to do, and feels that the member from Team Y seems to know what to do, and agrees to do what she says. So they play another game, which consists of multiple deuces and takes awhile. During the game, the other matches finish and a member from one of the teams begins watching the final game that is going on. Team Y wins the game, and the set. As both teams are leaving the court, the spectator asks what the final score was, and they reply, "6-4, 7-6". The spectator says that doesn't make any sense since they weren't playing a tie-breaker. The captains of both teams are called over, and decide that the last game should not count, and they should play a tie-breaker instead. All agree that the tie-breaker will start at 1-0 in Team Y's favor, since that team won an entire game. Team Y ends up winning the tie-breaker, and therefore, the score of "7-6" stands for the second set.

Both captains are obviously frustrated that their teammates do not know what to do when the score is tied at 6-6. Team X's players have been playing for 6 years, and 2 years. Team Y's players have been playing for 3 years and 1 year. The captains say that they have gone over tie-breakers repeatedly in practice and drills, and find it very difficult to understand how the players did not know what to do. All parties involved agree later that the players should have consulted the captains once the initial disagreement took place.

Having said that, how should this situation have been handled? Specifically, my questions are as follows:

1. Should the initial score stand, since a mistake was made? In the Tennis Rules, there are a few places which address what to do when mistakes are made, and they all say that the scores that were played before the mistake was discovered should stand as is. But does this apply when the scoring is so different -- i.e., a game vs. a tie-breaker?
2. Should the spectator have questioned the score, since spectators are not supposed to be involved at all? Remember the spectator did not get involved until the game (and the match) was supposedly over.
3. Should the tie-breaker have started at 1-0?
4. What should be done about the players not knowing the rules?
If the mistake had been discovered after the first point of the 13th game, they could still have played the tiebreak. Once the second point of that game started, you continue playing a regular game.

Now, when it is 7-6, the match still should not be over. You play until one team wins by 2 games, or until the score reaches 8-8. You then play a tiebreak. The reason for playing to 8-8 is so that both teams are serving on the right side of the court for a tiebreak to start.

In these ladies' situation, all points played in good faith stand. If they shook hands and left the court, the match is over and they then cannot go back on and resume.
 
They should have played another game. Win by 2 or keep going if it gets to another tie. They start that way, they should end that way.
 
They should have played another game. Win by 2 or keep going if it gets to another tie. They start that way, they should end that way.
but the rule is play till 8-8 then play the tiebreak if nobody wins by 2 till then.
 
A game played in good faith stands. Period. No way in heck I would agree to start a tiebreaker at 1-0 for whoever won the 6 all game. I would do exactly as woodrow1029 says. Play out set or at 8 all play a tiebreak.

Sounds a little fishy to me as I would bet the lady wanting to play the game out instead of a tiebreak new what she was doing.

good tennis

TM
 
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