Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by IlliniSky, Feb 14, 2011.
Time to rebuild. Starting to look ugly.
A little credit to The Golden Gophers is in order. When healthy, they've only lost to top 10 teams (only one loss outside top ten).
Stacking doesn't work against The Golden Gophers as they can go 7 or 8 deep and still compete.
When I was at the U of M, we never lost to anybody other than Michigan. Everyone has their day and Minnesota is on the rise.
Yeah, I didn't mean to take anything away from the Gophers' win. They are definitely improved this year.
In an interview, Dancer says;
"We don't stay calm. We don't execute. We lose control. We are very disappointed. We have got to rebound."
Isn't it the coaches job to calm the players down and stay in control?
"Clearly the coaches have to do better and reach each individual player a little bit more. Our guys have to play smarter and tougher and the coaches have to figure out what's not happening to make it work better than today's match."
Figure out what? The season is over. The team's streak of 20-win seasons is over, we're going to fall out of the top 20, we are not going to be hosting the regionals and we only have one more game in the regular season, and you think we need to figure out things now?
At this rate, Illinois will be hosting the 2013 NCAA championships and watching from the sidelines. Has this ever happened in the history of NCAA tennis? What an embarrassment.
Based on recent results, I don't see the stack. I think you are getting a bit irrational on the subject of Illinois tennis. I understand the disappointment, but your posts are just becoming one rant after another.
Yeah, maybe you're right. I'll come back when I can rationalize what is going on with the team.
not so loud, bro! clarkc thinks only the top 2 on any team can compete!!!
Actually, I think stacking is quite clearly against the rules. But, I think what constitutes stacking isn't simply the number next to a name, i.e., just because one player's ITA rank is higher than another player's doesn't mean it's a "stack" to place the lower ranked player higher IF the lower ranked player can actually beat the higher ranked player or be very competitive with him.
So, let's say Nos. 3 and 4 get some decent individual tourney play during the fall season and earn an ITA rank. Then they play some dual matches against highly ranked teams who also have ranked 3 and 4 players and they perform well, thus solidifying their rank. But, then let's say, No. 4 starts to play bad, maybe loses a set in practice to No. 5 (or loses an actual match). If No. 5 can actually beat No. 4 (even if he doesn't always do it), I don't think it's stack to put that player higher.
Likewise, you see highly ranked teams with their top 3 players all ranked in the top 30 or 40 and they'll all switch around a lot because they are all competititive. Also, not stacking.
Stacking is when the clearly superior player is placed lower and the lower player is placed higher knowing that he has no chance at winning. Stacking involves purposely throwing away matches so that other matches can be won.
Anyone know the technical rules.
For example: Ohio State putting Van Engelen at 3 when he routinely loses or struggles against lesser opponents, while 4-6 blaze through.
I think we all agree that stacking is against the rules. I don't think Illinois stacked in the Minnesota match. KU, Kalmanovich and Hamui have played higher than Souza the whole year. The only issue would be with Hoh playing 5. From what I have seen lately, I think Hoh was playing better. I admith this is debateable. I thnk Dancer has been looking for more out of the 5-6 spot the whole year. Souza, Hoh and Abdelnour have switched in and out of those spots. Typically, Souza and Hoh have played more than Abdelnour. While Souza probably has played more matches at a higher spot than Hoh, the question really goes to who is playing better. By the way, was anyone at the OSU-IU match? OSU won 5-2 but I think that is a good result for IU.
There is a rule for stacking, a couple of years ago, Northwestern forfeited a match against Wisconsin that they had won 4-3 because of stacking. As a result, Wisconsin won 4-3.
Didn't Wisconsin itself also get a match forfeited because of stacking in the past few years?
Out of curiousity, does anyone know how stacking rules are determined/enforced?
Bluetrain, I know it was the Wisconsin-Northwestern match. I may be wrong on which team was forfeited. In regards to the enforcement of the rule, the coach of the other team files a protest which is then ruled on for interpretation. Unfortunately, I don't know who rules on the protest. It sould be the ITA officials at the match or the conference. I think Woodrow is a college official. He can give us the answer.
1) I am not one of those who thinks stacking is OK.
2) Stacking is against the rules.
3) When I see allegations that a certain player should have played several spots higher in the lineup, but the scores indicate he struggled to win in three sets down where he played, then I don't see the stacking.
4) ITA rankings are heavily influenced by fall play. Some players miss the fall entirely, while others have one hot tournament in the fall that pumps up their ranking but then play at their normal level the rest of the season. You cannot insist that the lineup follow ITA rankings. KU Singh would have to play #6 for the whole spring just because he missed the fall season.
I think only the top 2 on any team can compete? Care to cite any posts of mine that say that?
The only thing that raised my eyebrows when I saw the box score was Hoh playing 5 and Souza playing 6. Notice that Hoh won the first set and Souza lost the first set. At that point, I wonder if anyone was still thinking that a stack was going on? Sure, Hoh then lost in 3 and Souza won in 3, but assuming that Minnesota's #5 is better than their #6 this does not indicate that Souza is definitely playing better than Hoh right now. Looks like they are about even.
If Souza had breezed through in straight sets while Hoh lost in straight sets, we would all be in agreement that the lineup looked fishy.
It is subjective. Players are supposed to play in order of "ability" per ITA rules. There are specific clauses that you cannot claim that a player is returning from injury so he is playing several spots down, etc. When he is healthy, he goes back to his spot. Not healthy, don't play him yet. Players cannot change more than one spot in the lineup from one match to the next.
If an opposing coach protests before a match, both coaches present their arguments to an ITA official. The official then has to make a judgment call based on the evidence from this season, weighted towards more recent results. Because of the subjectivity, most ITA officials are not willing to force a lineup change unless a distance of more than one spot is obviously involved and the decision does not look that close. As a result, rather minor stacking flies under the radar. Egregious stacking (#4 player is playing #1 today because "he has been winning in practice") will be overturned.
Teams can move their lineup up or down one spot; however, the order still needs to be based on order of ability.
If one team is protesting the line-up, then the coach tells the head referee on-site that they are playing the match under protest. The referee/umpire has NOTHING to do with lineup enforcement except to read the rules in question. The officials on-site do not make any decisions regarding validity of the lineup. After the match, the protesting coach files a protest with the NCAA if a non-conference match, or with the Conference office if it is a conference match. It is handled from their.
I wish they would have enforced stacking rules when I was in high school. Two years in a row we got stacked on by the team that beat us and went to state. One year it was so bad that our 1st and 2nd singles players both won 6-0,6-0 and were competing to see who would win their match first.
right here buddy!
Vandre, do you really think that "no team can survive injuries to their top two players" says the same thing as "only the top two players can compete"? Surely you cannot be that stupid!
Dancer continues to struggle to put a team together. KU Singh apparently has decided to leave to try the tour or who knows what, and Brian Alden has transferred to Florida State. With three seniors gone, this leaves only 6 players on the team, including the two new freshmen coming in.
What is it about Dancer? Why do these players continue to quit on his program? I've heard he has a bit of an overbearing coaching style and nitpicks every point. Since the great Tiley era, he has continued to drag the Illini down. We host the NCAA championships in 2013 but it's starting to look like the Illini will be waiting tables instead of playing on the stage. Time for a new coach?
The attrition is pretty remarkable at Illinois. I have absolutely no inside knowledge of why the players are leaving, but it does not make the coach look good.
Florida and Illinois do seem to be the worst schools about transferring
Let's say there is a bit of urgency in recruiting now for Illinois, to say the least. With 6 players on the roster, I think recruits are being sought for January admission. The top two players in the spring, Nevolo and Kalmanovich, are seniors, and the next two (Hoh and Abdelnour) are juniors. A big influx of high quality recruits has to occur in the next 12 months to keep this program from slipping into mediocrity (and I don't mean mediocrity by Illinois standards, which they are already achieving, but middle-of-the-conference mediocrity).
ClarkC, I understand your viewpoint but I can assure you that the staff is on top of the recruiting. I also don't know for sure that Singh will not be back. I think he is playing some tournaments in India for the fall semester. Alden was not going to crack the singles line-up and he knew that. I have also heard that they are looking at a couple of really good players for January as you mentioned.
I also think it hard to complain about the team when no matches have been played yet. Heck, as of earlier today the schedule was not posted. Illinois is hosting a tournament in Chicago in a couple of weeks and that will include Notre Dame, Alabama and someone else. While I understand that the one poster wants better results I don't understand his annimosity to Dancer. It just seems like the poster has a personal issue with Dancer over something he has not explained.
One thing that is not as well publicized is the fact that the University is not giving as many preferential admissions to the tennis team as had been given in past years. For example, Jean Anderson was not admitted by Illinois but then admitted to Texas on a faxed transcript. Singh's issues getting into the school are also well documented.
Getting back to recruiting, the staff has two very good recruits verballed for next year and Illinois is also in the mix for two more highly rated recruits. I guess I just think we should wait until matches are played and then rate how the season went. I am going to try and not post many responses on this thread because i know I will not change anyone's mind and I don't want to get into an internet argument over the topic.
Ona side note, I am going to the Open for the first time this weekend. I will take pictures and try to post them.
While it is hard to say exactly how good the team is when no matches have been played, it is possible to say right now that the roster attrition has been among the worst in the country. I think that is what has a lot of the Illini fans upset. (Note that I am an outside observer, a Virginia fan, and it is not an emotional topic to me.)
Another question is whether Illinois is recruiting at the level of Dennis Nevolo lately. After Nevolo graduates this year, you don't want to have a roster of 6-8 good players, none of whom look like they belong in the top two spots in the lineup. If Singh does not come back, I don't think that lower blue chips and higher five stars will have Illinois competing at the level they expect when Nevolo and Kalmanovich are gone.
1. Singh has been taken off of the roster on the official site. I heard on another site that he left. But he might be back? Where did you hear this?
2. Who are these "couple of good recruits" that they are looking for in January? Where do you hear this?
3. As for the issue with Anderson, Dancer doesn't seem to have very much backing from the university does he?
4. Alden won't be missed much. He's at a school more his level now.
5. You're right about not changing my mind about Dancer. He can't keep players on the team. It's become a very obvious and disturbing trend. Why do these players leave? We have great facilities, we're in one of the top conferences in the country, we are one of the greatest tennis programs in the B1G, and we are hosting the NCAA championships in 2013. But Dancer can't get the top ten recruits and he's losing the ones he finds. Illinois hasn't won the B1G since Tiley left and the rankings are droping further each year. And you're wondering why I have animosity towards him? Is it that hard to figure out?
Folks, off-topic a bit (and my apologies in advance for that) but I have an Illinois Tennis Nike shirt w/tags that secretly made its way into this Big East alum's (and husband of a Nittany Lion) closet.
Will let it go if anyone's interested..
On a positive note...
The Daily Illini has this great article on junior Bruno Abdelnour.
Observing from a distance, it seemed to me that Abdelnour was improving rapidly at the end of last season. If that continues, it will be a big boost to Illinois' chances for a good season.
KU Singh shows up in the ITA Preseason Rankings at #100, but they list him as being from Georgia. However, the Georgia 2011-2012 roster has been updated and does not list Singh.
Please let that be an error. If Singh transfered to Georgia I am going to be p***ed.
There needs to be some list that tracks all the transfers. Cause a lot of players do it and I tend to find transferes about midway through the year that I was unaware of. Like "Hey I didin't know he transferred"
Aoba, I will see if i can find out what is going on with KU. I had not heard anything about Georgia, but anything is possible. His facebook page still says he lives in Champaign. Georgia and Georgia Tech have updated their webpages and he is not listed for either school. He also was not on the list for the ITA All-American. At the very least, he would have made the qualifying with that ranking. I had heard he was taking off the fall because with the upcoming tournaments near his homeland in India and Asia he wanted to try and earn some points. My source could be wrong but he is usually right about these things. ClarkC is right about January positions. From what I am told, Illinois, Stanford and a couple of other schools are looking at some January players. I don't follow Stanford too much but I can't remember any past January enrollees. As a side note, if anyone gets a chance to attend they should go to the U.S. Open.
Thanks Lefty. Appreciate the news when you get it.
A poster called "sectennis" posted on the UVa tennis board that K.U. Singh will miss the fall and begin playing for Georgia in January.
But I thought that players sitting out the fall season are not ranked yet. If Singh is not playing this fall, what's he doing in the rankings?
I'm guessing Dancer didn't handle his injury well last year.
The only way to atone for this is to bring in 2 or 3 good players in January. There is no way we have a chance at anything with the bare minimum of players on the roster. And 2 of those being freshman. And who knows if the ones he brings in are any good? It has become very hard to keep the faith with this situation.
Very Upbeat Article Interviewing Illinois Assistant Coach
The Fighting Illini Invitational starts today and The Daily Illini interviewed some of the Illini about the start of the season. Not one word is mentioned about losing two players and the assistant coach Marcos Asse says the Illini are "bigger, badder, and better."
Tried sending questions to official site, facebook site, the Daily Illini; nothing. We always find out when a basketball player gets a hangnail but it's like pulling teeth to find out what happens with the tennnis players. :neutral:
At the Olympia Fields Country Club Fighting Illini Invitational, the Illini did fairly well. They finished 10-6 in singles and 1-3 in doubles. Dennis Nevolo (4-0 singles, 1-1 doubles), Stephen Hoh (2-2 singles, 0-2 doubles), Bruno Abdelnour (3-1 singles, 0-2 doubles) and Tim Kopinski (1-3 singles, 1-1 doubles) participated in the tournament. Nevolo was named most outstanding player. Roy Kalmanovich and Ross Guignon did not participate.
The Illini will take part in the Baylor Invitational and the Virginia Invitational starting Friday.
It's also pretty much confirmed that Singh has transferred to Georgia. Illinois now down to the bare minimum of 6 players. Let's see what Dancer can pull out of his hat.
Also, Illinois' two recruits for next year, Jared Hiltzik and Alexander Jesse have both been moved up to blue-chip status. Hiltzik is currently No. 16 nationally and No. 2 in Illinois. Jesse is currently No. 28 nationally and No. 1 in Wisconsin.
purdue can take them
Since Illinois' record all-time against Purdue is 93-10-1 and they have won the last 21 meetings, if Illinois falls that far and loses to Purdue, I will give up tennis and move on to curling or tiddlywinks or something.
Well, it's confirmed that Singh is gone. He is a Georgia Bulldog now. Good luck to him for the rest of his college career. It will be interesting to see what Illinois does now.
Sure hope no one transfers out in January.
It's entirely impossible. They're on the edge as it is now. Maybe we can establish a pipeline to Serbia like Florida has to France.
I'm sure Dancer will come up with something. I was surprised when Kalmanovich came back last year (didn't know what to expect with him) so Dancer probably has someone lined up to join the Illini in January.
The Illini certanily don't hide from pain. They're headed to the Virginia Invitational this weekend. The Cavaliers beat the Illini three times last year, including a complete thrashing in the Sweet 16 at the NCAA tourney. You have to say one thing for Dancer; he likes to play the best. That's one thing I like about him.
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