I'm sick and tired of people saying Fed can't hit neo backhands against Djokovic because of mental factor

#1
People keep saying 2017 IW Fed would hit neo backhands against Novak, based on this match against Nadal:


No. Just no. The reason Fed can't hit neo backhands against Djokovic is because Djokovic won't let him. Djokovic's shots to his backhand are much deeper and less spinny than Nadal's, which makes it much harder to hit winners and that's what makes Fed panic, not because of "Novak living in Fed's head" BS. People need to play tennis more to understand the game better instead of spitting out nonsense.

P/S: I do, however, believe IW 2017 Fed would beat current Novak but for different reasons, not because he would destroy Novak with his neo backhands.
 
Last edited:
#2
Like almost any sport match ups matter

Roger does not match up all that well with Novak

I dont necessarily believe that Novak is really that much "in his head"
 

NBP

Hall of Fame
#8
It would only be a weapon as a down the line backhand, rather than cross court to go toe to toe with Djokovic's backhand, which wouldn't work of course.

Try and think of how well Nadal's down the line forehand works against Djokovic into his forehand corner when Rafa is firing.
 
#10
People keep saying 2017 IW Fed would hit neo backhands against Novak, based on this match against Nadal:


No. Just no. The reason Fed can't hit neo backhands against Djokovic is because Djokovic won't let him. Djokovic's shots to his backhand are much deeper and less spinny than Nadal's, which makes it much harder to hit winners and that's what makes Fed panic, not because of "Novak living in Fed's head" BS. People need to play tennis more to understand the game better instead of spitting out nonsense.
You can get sick as much as you want, it won't make you more right. Wawrinka proves it is possible to defeat Djokovic with agressive backhand winners.

Djokovic doesn't hit to Federer's backhand more deep than Nadal for the simple reason that Nadal's forehand is much more powerful than Djokovic's one. The psychological factor also affects tennis players.
 
#12
You can get sick as much as you want, it won't make you more right. Wawrinka proves it is possible to defeat Djokovic with agressive backhand winners.

Djokovic doesn't hit to Federer's backhand more deep than Nadal for the simple reason that Nadal's forehand is much more powerful than Djokovic's one. The psychological factor also affects tennis players.
I really don’t think you understand tennis...Wawrinka’s BH is much flatter and he generally hits much harder than Federer on the BH side.
 
#13
IW 2017 Federer would have destroyed Djokovic in Paris. Instead, he choose to abuse of the ultra-defensive slcie backhand. It cost him the match.
Dude you don’t know tennis. I posted two paragraphs for you to read in the other thread

Federer’s slice is not defensive wtf? Slicing to Novak’s BH is one of THE best strategies when playing Novak lol
 
#14
He doesn’t need a neoBH against Nole, he proved that much on countless occasions. People simply forget how the tables turn when players get old. Lendl was killing Edberg but Stefan finished with the better H2H. Now how many threads are there claiming Edberg got into Ivan’s head? Are there any people actually claiming Stefan is the better player? Exactly
 
#15
You can get sick as much as you want, it won't make you more right. Wawrinka proves it is possible to defeat Djokovic with agressive backhand winners.

Djokovic doesn't hit to Federer's backhand more deep than Nadal for the simple reason that Nadal's forehand is much more powerful than Djokovic's one. The psychological factor also affects tennis players.
Do you understand how is Fed's game fundamentally different from Waw's game? It just proves that you understand nothing.
I, however, do believe IW 2017 Fed would beat current Novak for different reasons.
 
Last edited:
#16
It would only be a weapon as a down the line backhand, rather than cross court to go toe to toe with Djokovic's backhand, which wouldn't work of course.

Try and think of how well Nadal's down the line forehand works against Djokovic into his forehand corner when Rafa is firing.
Federer wouldn’t be able to take the ball as early when Novak plays into his BH
 
#17
Federer hasn’t been a good match up vs Novak since 2012, the last year he had his prime FH.

That said, 2017 was better off both sides than 2014/2015 so I’d fancy Fed’s chances to do better in those slam matches than he actually did.
 
#18
Do you how is Fed's game fundamentally different from Waw's game? It just proves that you understand nothing.
I, however, do believe IW 2017 Fed would beat current Novak for different reasons.
Peak 2018 Shanghai Djokovic vs Peak 2017 Miami Federer

I personally think Novak would win IMO
 
#20
He doesn’t need a neoBH against Nole, he proved that much on countless occasions. People simply forget how the tables turn when players get old. Lendl was killing Edberg but Stefan finished with the better H2H. Now how many threads are there claiming Edberg got into Ivan’s head? I people actually c
Yes, 2015 Federer already beat Djokovic in Cincinnati without even using the neo-backhand. Imagine using the neo-backhand. He could have won more matches.
 
#25
its so interesting to say that fed doesn't match up well against nole now because historically they have been more evenly matched. definitely not disputing now given their recent matches but just interesting.

i still disagree that there isn't some kind of mental issues where novak is concerned with fed. i do agree that the game plan doesn't work againt novak inthe same way it would against nadal, but there have been moments when you watch djokerer matches that fed just looks done mentally and imo saying that isnt taking away from novaks game
 
#26
2017 fed had a significantly better FH+BH combo than 2015 fed.
that would more than compensate for the better net play & slightly better movement in 15 vs Djokovic.

people need to stop kidding themselves.
That wouldn’t work as well as it did against Nadal IMO
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
#28
That wouldn’t work as well as it did against Nadal IMO
doesn't need to considering that after AO 17, Federer straight-setted Nadal 3 times in a row without being broken 1 single time combined (IW, Miami, Shanghai).
All it has to do is work clearly better than 2015 ground game which it clearly would.
 
#29
its so interesting to say that fed doesn't match up well against nole now because historically they have been more evenly matched. definitely not disputing now given their recent matches but just interesting.

i still disagree that there isn't some kind of mental issues where novak is concerned with fed. i do agree that the game plan doesn't work againt novak inthe same way it would against nadal, but there have been moments when you watch djokerer matches that fed just looks done mentally and imo saying that isnt taking away from novaks game
Mental does play an aspect
 
#31
Mental does play an aspect
im not disagreeing in a general sense, hitman and I have had convos about this, that in general federer is not going to put away novak in the same way he might have done against nadal but tehre are moments that fed can make it competitive and just didnt and imo all those losses had to contribute to the point that novak has become the nadal to him
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
#32
Peak 2018 Shanghai Djokovic vs Peak 2017 Miami Federer

I personally think Novak would win IMO
why would you want to compare 2018 Shanghai vs 2017 Miami federer ? Djokovic would win that.
A straight comparision of 2017 Shanghai Fed vs 2018 Shanghai Djoko.
Fed played great in SF/F of Shanghai 17 vs delpo&Nadal.
I'd give the slight edge to fed.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
#33
Djokovic isn’t Nadal lol.
he isn't.
So instead of losing in easy straight sets like Nadal in Shanghai 17, it'd go 3 sets vs Djokovic or 2 tight straight sets, 7-6 or 7-5 sets.

And like I said, All it has to do is work clearly better than 2015 ground game which it clearly would.
 
#34
why would you want to compare 2018 Shanghai vs 2017 Miami federer ? Djokovic would win that.
A straight comparision of 2017 Shanghai Fed vs 2018 Shanghai Djoko.
Fed played great in SF/F of Shanghai 17 vs delpo&Nadal.
I'd give the slight edge to fed.
Most advantages Federer gained against playing Nadal in 2017, he would lose against playing Djokovic
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
#36
Most advantages Federer gained against playing Nadal in 2017, he would lose against playing Djokovic
based on what exactly ?
His 2017 FH would actually hurt Djokovic big time, unlike in most matches of 14/15.

BH, while it wouldn't hurt Djokovic as much as it hurt Nadal, would still hurt Djokovic clearly more than it did in 14/15.

While many people are in some la la land only talking about 2017 BH for fed, Fed's FH was back to 2012 levels where it'd hurt Djokovic badly.
 
#38
he isn't.
So instead of losing in easy straight sets like Nadal in Shanghai 17, it'd go 3 sets vs Djokovic or 2 tight straight sets, 7-6 or 7-5 sets.

And like I said, All it has to do is work clearly better than 2015 ground game which it clearly would.
Nadal was injured in Shanghai, but still Federer played too great and would have won anyway. It was also played on indoor and the court was really fast, so Federer would have won regardless of Nadal's health.
 
#40
Who has been saying Fed can't hit them against Novak because of the mental factor?

I'm on this board every day and I don't recall ever seeing that, let alone so many times that I'm sick and tired of it.
 
#41
He doesn’t need a neoBH against Nole, he proved that much on countless occasions. People simply forget how the tables turn when players get old. Lendl was killing Edberg but Stefan finished with the better H2H. Now how many threads are there claiming Edberg got into Ivan’s head? Are there any people actually claiming Stefan is the better player? Exactly
Lendl also killed Becker in his 30's and beat him in a Slam when he was 32. Edberg only had one more win in the head to head which isn't really that significant. None of those guys (Wilander, Becker, Edberg) owned Lendl at all although he was much older, except you could say Becker got him in Slams. Lendl still won the head to head. Age isn't everything.
 
Last edited:
#43
2017 to mid 2018 - Federer in form, Djokovic out of form = 0 matches.
Mid 2018 till now - Federer out of form, Djokovic in form = 2 matches.

People who claim that Federer is avoiding anyone need to go to the kitchen, take a frying pan and hit their head as hard as they can.
 
#44
he isn't.
So instead of losing in easy straight sets like Nadal in Shanghai 17, it'd go 3 sets vs Djokovic or 2 tight straight sets, 7-6 or 7-5 sets.

And like I said, All it has to do is work clearly better than 2015 ground game which it clearly would.
Just looked at stats and my inkling was confirmed. 2018 Shanghai Djokovic was probably one of the best iterations of Djokovic.

The following are the stats of both Djokovic and Federer's one week runs in Shanghai

Djokovic

Serve
Ace %10.1%
Double Fault %1.6%
1st Serve %72.1%
1st Serve Won %84.9%
2nd Serve Won %59.7%
Break Points Saved %100.0%
Service Points Won %77.9%
Service Games Won %100.0%
Return
Ace Against %10.1%
Double Fault Against %4.6%
1st Srv. Return Won %36.2%
2nd Srv. Return Won %57.0%
Break Points Won %42.4%
Return Points Won %43.0%
Return Games Won %31.1%

Federer

Serve
Ace %16.4%
Double Fault %1.0%
1st Serve %72.5%
1st Serve Won %79.3%
2nd Serve Won %63.3%
Break Points Saved %70.0%
Service Points Won %74.9%
Service Games Won %94.3%
Return
Ace Against %6.7%
Double Fault Against %0.8%
1st Srv. Return Won %35.4%
2nd Srv. Return Won %51.5%
Break Points Won %35.0%
Return Points Won %41.0%
Return Games Won %25.5%

2018 Shanghai Djokovic personally beats 2017 Fed. Djokovic literally won more serve percentage points in Shanghai than Federer lol. Ultimate Servovic with a quite good return game to boot, beating Federer in several categories
 
#46
I think most people here are ignoring the incredible effect confidence has on winning, and confidence grows hugely when ever the "balance of power" changes. I'm not saying that either Fed or Djokovic, when they were winning more against each other, did not have very objective reasons for doing so, but two or three wins in a row will have an incredible effect on confidence/belief.

My impression is that for most of the time I've been watching these two players face off since 2013 that Fed rarely goes into a match with Djokovic believing he's going to win it. Let's say objectively the actual playing level was something like 48%/52%, with Djokovic having a slight edge. In the minds of the two players it's been more like 40/60.

For this to change Fed has to start winning, somehow, and he needs the kind of win he had against Nadal at the AO in 2017. To turn things around he also has to have luck, a combination of strong play and good health when Novak is more vulnerable physically. That means, in short, that he has to have a great day on a day when Novak does not. Then he has to build on that, keeping that memory in his mind for the next meeting, and he has to do it again.

Possible? Yes.

Likely for a guy giving away 6 years and approaching his 38th birthday?

I'd say highly unlikely.

That in my mind is the "inconvenient truth". Not the strength of the neo backhand.

In matchups in an individual sport belief it about 90% of everything for two guys who are very close in skill.
 
Last edited:
#47
Just looked at stats and my inkling was confirmed. 2018 Shanghai Djokovic was probably one of the best iterations of Djokovic.

The following are the stats of both Djokovic and Federer's one week runs in Shanghai

Djokovic

Serve
Ace %10.1%
Double Fault %1.6%
1st Serve %72.1%
1st Serve Won %84.9%
2nd Serve Won %59.7%
Break Points Saved %100.0%
Service Points Won %77.9%
Service Games Won %100.0%
Return
Ace Against %10.1%
Double Fault Against %4.6%
1st Srv. Return Won %36.2%
2nd Srv. Return Won %57.0%
Break Points Won %42.4%
Return Points Won %43.0%
Return Games Won %31.1%

Federer

Serve
Ace %16.4%
Double Fault %1.0%
1st Serve %72.5%
1st Serve Won %79.3%
2nd Serve Won %63.3%
Break Points Saved %70.0%
Service Points Won %74.9%
Service Games Won %94.3%
Return
Ace Against %6.7%
Double Fault Against %0.8%
1st Srv. Return Won %35.4%
2nd Srv. Return Won %51.5%
Break Points Won %35.0%
Return Points Won %41.0%
Return Games Won %25.5%

2018 Shanghai Djokovic personally beats 2017 Fed
LMAO sure thing. You just forgot to mention one small detail - Federer had to beat an in-form Del Potro and Nadal while Djokovic faced Anderson and Zverev playing at 20% of his capabilities. An in-form Federer isn't losing a BO3 match on a fast HC against Djokovic.
 
#48
Here are the totals of those two weeks runs lol

Djokovic

Total
Points Dominance1.95
Games Dominance Infinity
Break Points Ratio Infinity T
Total Points Won %58.9%
Games Won %66.3%
Sets Won %100.0%
Matches Won %100.0%
Match Time1:22

Federer

Total
Points Dominance 1.63
Games Dominance 4.50
Break Points Ratio 1.17
Total Points Won %55.4%
Games Won %59.3%
Sets Won %90.9%
Matches Won %100.0%
Match Time1:24

Ye no, Djokovic wins IMO
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
#49
Just looked at stats and my inkling was confirmed. 2018 Shanghai Djokovic was probably one of the best iterations of Djokovic.

The following are the stats of both Djokovic and Federer's one week runs in Shanghai

Djokovic

Serve
Ace %10.1%
Double Fault %1.6%
1st Serve %72.1%
1st Serve Won %84.9%
2nd Serve Won %59.7%
Break Points Saved %100.0%
Service Points Won %77.9%
Service Games Won %100.0%
Return

Ace Against %10.1%
Double Fault Against %4.6%
1st Srv. Return Won %36.2%
2nd Srv. Return Won %57.0%
Break Points Won %42.4%
Return Points Won %43.0%
Return Games Won %31.1%

Federer

Serve
Ace %16.4%
Double Fault %1.0%
1st Serve %72.5%
1st Serve Won %79.3%
2nd Serve Won %63.3%
Break Points Saved %70.0%
Service Points Won %74.9%
Service Games Won %94.3%
Return

Ace Against %6.7%
Double Fault Against %0.8%
1st Srv. Return Won %35.4%
2nd Srv. Return Won %51.5%
Break Points Won %35.0%
Return Points Won %41.0%
Return Games Won %25.5%

2018 Shanghai Djokovic personally beats 2017 Fed. Djokovic literally won more serve percentage points in Shanghai than Federer lol. Ultimate Servovic with a quite good return game to boot, beating Federer in several categories
That's coz Djokovic faced a considerably easier draw and Federer built up his form from the earlier rounds as he went later into the tournament.
Delpo and Nadal in Shanghai 17 were clearly better than anyone Djokovic faced in Shanghai 2018, Delpo especially so.

That's why I was specific in mentioning SF/F for Fed.

In 14 Shanghai, Fed had to save multiple MPs vs Mayer in his 1st match, then beat a pretty good DJoko 4&4 in the SF playing great tennis.

I didn't need stats to tell me 18 Shanghai was one of the best for Djokovic.
15 shanghai 1st, 18 Shanghai 2nd.
 
#50
That's coz Djokovic faced a considerably easier draw and Federer built up his form from the earlier rounds as he went later into the tournament.
Delpo and Nadal in Shanghai 17 were clearly better than anyone Djokovic faced in Shanghai 2018, Delpo especially so.

That's why I was specific in mentioning SF/F for Fed.

In 14 Shanghai, Fed had to save multiple MPs vs Mayer in his 1st match, then beat a pretty good DJoko 4&4 in the SF playing great tennis.

I didn't need stats to tell me 18 Shanghai was one of the best for Djokovic.
15 shanghai 1st, 18 Shanghai 2nd.
Of course Federer's draw was harder. Del Potro playing at his best and a rare in-form Nadal in that part of the season in the final. How is that comparable to Boric lmao
 
Top