I'm SICK of the "choker" talk! We're ALL clowns then...

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
Seriously guys, some of you are crossing some lines here... only stopping short of calling the entire ATP a bunch of chokers and clowns.

Point 1:

First of all, tennis is a game. And just like any other game, there are lead changes as well as momentum changes. It's normal. You use the term choking way too broadly and way too often.

Point 2:

Since you pretty much call any player who blows a lead a choker and "clown"... what does that make YOU... if you play yourself? We've ALL blown leads before... we're all a bunch of chokers and clowns then.

Point 3:

Because so many ATP pros have lost matches while being up in the match, statistics show that this is actually a very normal thing. If statistics say this one of the norms of the game, how does that make YOU look? That's right. Like a fool for calling players clowns all the time.

C'mon, you guys. Stop this insanity.
 
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TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
I used to be a huge Choke-Clown, but i dont get paid millions of dollars though. And i didnt choke against players from my own club (hence Spaniards vs Nadal)
 

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
I used to be a huge Choke-Clown, but i dont get paid millions of dollars though.
Epic fail #1 of the day right there.

How is getting paid millions of dollars (potentially...if you win) relevant here? You do realize the other player across the net is gunning for the same paycheck. Meaning that dynamic plays no role.
 

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
I'm sure it's just posters yoking most of the time.
Yoking or not yoking... it's annoying as it's become some sort of standard choice of word for any player that loses after having held some sort of lead at some point in the match.
 
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TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
Epic fail #1 of the day right there.

How is getting paid millions of dollars (potentially...if you win) relevant here? You do realize the other player across the net is gunning for the same paycheck. Meaning that dynamic plays no role.
Take a chillpill,ok?
They should be even more motivated because there are lots of money and points at stake.
 

Skabeast121

Banned
I would actually trust TheMOP on this if I recall he actually was a pro so I think he would have the most insight on this subject.
 
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TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
Thanx. But of course it could be individual but at least thats how i see it.
 

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
I understand what you mean, but I simply dont agree with you.
Then I'm sorry, you don't understand. Saying that a club player blowing a lead in a match where there is no money involved, just respect is far from the same as pros playing for money.. and respect is ludicrous.

Both pro players want the money and the respect, and it's the same dynamic as both club players playing for respect... the money element is canceled out as both pro players are gunning for it. Which means the other player will try just as hard (theoretically) to regain a lead back as the other player will try and maintain his or her lead.

It changes nothing. It's still sport.
 
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TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
Then I'm sorry, you don't understand. Saying that a club player blowing a lead in a match where there is no money involved, just respect is far from the same as pros playing for money.. and respect is ludicrous.

Both pro players want the money and the respect, and it's the same dynamic as both club players playing for respect... the money element is canceled out as both pro players are gunning for it. Which means the other player will try just as hard (theoretically) to regain a lead back as the other player will try and maintain his or her lead.

It changes nothing. It's still sport.
I get your point, but i disagree. Lets agree to disagree OK or else we could be up all night discussing this back and forth
 

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
I get your point, but i disagree. Lets agree to disagree OK or else we could be up all night discussing this back and forth
Fine. But you not even allowing a condensed sentence to express your logic why you disagree is a bit... well... whatever. :)

Be as it may, the money aspect might make you play harder, but it makes your opponent play harder too, so if your opponent is LOSING, money means they try extra hard to regain the lead, just as hard as the player in the lead trying to close it out. ;)
 
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TheMagicianOfPrecision

Guest
Fine. But you not even allowing a condensed sentence to express your logic why you disagree is a bit... well... whatever. :)

Be as it may, the money aspect might make you play harder, but it makes your opponent play harder too, so if your opponent is LOSING, money means they try extra hard to regain the lead, just as hard as the player in the lead trying to close it out. ;)
Ive got a headache right now, i promise ill get back to this thread and writing down my arguments.
 

Mick

Legend
if they had a huge lead in the match and then lost that lead and the match then you can call them a choker.

you can't call them a choker for just losing a match.
 

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
Then I'm sorry, you don't understand. Saying that a club player blowing a lead in a match where there is no money involved, just respect is far from the same as pros playing for money.. and respect is ludicrous.

Both pro players want the money and the respect, and it's the same dynamic as both club players playing for respect... the money element is canceled out as both pro players are gunning for it. Which means the other player will try just as hard (theoretically) to regain a lead back as the other player will try and maintain his or her lead.

It changes nothing. It's still sport.
IMHO, it actually makes choking, as we call it, more likely. i mean, if you're playing for a million bucks, that just adds more pressure to both players, and most players dont choke when they're fighting for their lives, but mostly when they're so close they can taste it.

it's the pressure of almost winning that gets to them, not the pressure of almost losing. hence, the money enhances that pressure and makes it more important.
 

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
if they had a huge lead in the match and then lost that lead and the match then you can call them a choker.

you can't call them a choker for just losing a match.
First of all, "huge lead" is subjective. If a player has any type of lead (up a set, etc) and ends up losing, people just yell out choker. This is ridiculous.

Secondly, what about momentum swings? They are natural. It IS only natural for the person trailing to either HAVE to step it up or just give up and lose. It is only natural for a person leading to ease up a bit (I don't care who you are, these are normal human behaviours, even if subtle). This is called a momentum shift.
 

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
IMHO, it actually makes choking, as we call it, more likely. i mean, if you're playing for a million bucks, that just adds more pressure to both players, and most players dont choke when they're fighting for their lives, but mostly when they're so close they can taste it.

it's the pressure of almost winning that gets to them, not the pressure of almost losing. hence, the money enhances that pressure and makes it more important.
That is called choking yes. But we both know the word is thrown around for pretty much all cases where a player has a lead and loses it at some point in the match. It happens all the time and MOST of the time, it is NOT choking.

Example: I'm hitting forehand winners down the line one after the other... 10 in a row say. Then, all of a sudden, I miss one... then, after making a few more, I miss two in a row, etc. Most posters here yell "he's choking!" ... I say wtf... if you are playing at a really high level (and every player has these phases), there is only one way to go from here eventually, and that's a lower level (very normal and natural).

It's relative. A player in the lead because of a spurt of peak performance who then loses the lead because their performance level has dropped from incredible to normal, mediocre play... this is not choking.
 
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Skabeast121

Banned
I have to agree with malakas Roddick really hasn't ever choked against Fed. He has played some really amazing matches, and when he gets beat bad (Aussie 07 comes to mind) people talk about Fed playing one of the best matches of his life. And I just don't see money as a factor for a pro choking. I mean pros all eventually get used to the stage and if they choke they aren't choking because of the money, they have been in that environment long enough to cope with that certain pressure. IMO someone would choke like Nishikori, Murray or any decent French Player, where the public expects a lot out of that player that can cause a player to choke, but certainly not money.
 

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
Pro players "choke" because there is more on the line than we play at the clubs. We play for respect. Some of these players play for all time greatness (Federer), some play to put dinner on the table (most players), and others play with the weight of a nation on their shoulders (Roddick, Murray).




It is preposterous to think that we as club players experience anything to the same degree that pro players do.
 

Winners or Errors

Hall of Fame
Well, I only choke against players who are more consistent than me, which isn't really choking because I just need to get more consistent and into better condition. Once I get there, no more choking. Then it's just called losing, but perhaps I will get on top and stay on top for two sets... once in a while.
 

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
Pro players "choke" because there is more on the line than we play at the clubs. We play for respect. Some of these players play for all time greatness (Federer), some play to put dinner on the table (most players), and others play with the weight of a nation on their shoulders (Roddick, Murray).




It is preposterous to think that we as club players experience anything to the same degree that pro players do.
I didn't say the experience is the same. What I said is, if you were paying attention, as a pro who is faced with all the pressures you wrote above in your post... the the OTHER pro standing ACROSS from you is ALSO facing these same types of pressure.

Meaning... if you are in the LEAD in a match... the other pro player losing is then ALSO super keen on trying to come back and win (as the pressure to succeed is great... plus the money).

This means lots of momentum swings in a match, naturally. One player has phases of very high performance, some can sustain it, most cannot throughout a match. What I'm saying is those that cannot sustain a high level of performance throughout the match and therefore blow a lead ... these guys are NOT necessarily choking.

It just gets to me that everyone constantly yells choke for anytime a pro player that is leading during a match ends up losing it.

In the end, tennis is a sport... no matter what lies in the balance (supporting your family with winnings, etc)... the other pro across from you most of the time is in a similar situation and therefore equally determined to win... so you can't always say the loser when up in a match choked it away... because of phases I talked about and about the other pro also wanting to comeback at all costs.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Seriously guys, some of you are crossing some lines here... only stopping short of calling the entire ATP a bunch of chokers and clowns...

C'mon, you guys. Stop this insanity.
I agree 1000% - you're on my Respected List. But your words are in vain:

a) the commentators use the 'C' word all the time and TW board members LOVE to parrot what they hear washed-up players say.
b) the average TW board member is 14.
c) a lot of these people don't play competitive tennis at more than a hit and giggle level and have no idea what happens out there.
d) some of it are the Politically Correct who are trying to give payback for all the talk about bad play on the WTA tour.

I will choose to sit out the threads where 'C'-ing is discussed. Like the 'What's Wrong With Federer's Game' threads. And the 'So and So (who has never won a Major) has a better Game than Fed' threads and the 'Nadal is on Steroids' threads...
 

Docalex007

Hall of Fame
I agree 1000% - you're on my Respected List. But your words are in vain:

a) the commentators use the 'C' word all the time and TW board members LOVE to parrot what they hear washed-up players say.
b) the average TW board member is 14.
c) a lot of these people don't play competitive tennis at more than a hit and giggle level and have no idea what happens out there.
d) some of it are the Politically Correct who are trying to give payback for all the talk about bad play on the WTA tour.

I will choose to sit out the threads where 'C'-ing is discussed. Like the 'What's Wrong With Federer's Game' threads. And the 'So and So (who has never won a Major) has a better Game than Fed' threads and the 'Nadal is on Steroids' threads...
Good points there. It's a shame this forum can't have more respectable members posting on a more regular basis.

The fact of the matter is, if you play tennis competitively you would be able to relate to what happens on the pro tour a lot better than if you just spectated. I have blown leads before simply because I played above my normal level for a set or so before returning back to "normal" which is completely natural and normal. Yet to all the kids around here I would be seen as a choker and clown. Doesn't make sense as it's not a choke.

It's just a shame to see really hot and "in the zone" players called clowns because they are playing at such a high level but can't sustain it and end up losing.. not because the pressure got to them per say, but because it's only normal to play around your average ability most of the time. It's just ridiculous.
 

akv89

Hall of Fame
People don't just overuse the 'choke' label but also misuse it. Choking occurs when a player is in the position to capitalize and tightens up. You can see physically whether or not a player is choking. Bunting the ball back, hitting with a stiff arm, forgetting to make the adjustment steps while moving, not looking at the ball when serving etc. These are characteristics of someone who is choking. If someone wants to prove that a player choked, it is best to see if that player was tightening up.

Losing motivation to win a match is not choking, it's tanking. Neither is losing a big lead when you don't change your execution but your opponent steps up their game.
 
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