Image Djokovic, Murray, Stan peaked during 2004-2007

Imagine Djokovic, Murray, Stan peaked during 2004-2007, would Federer still end up with 19 slams?

  • About the same at 19

    Votes: 8 16.7%

  • A few more becasue of Federer's longevity

    Votes: 16 33.3%

  • A few less due to more competition

    Votes: 24 50.0%
  • Total voters
    48
T

TennisSprout

Rookie
So many Nadal fans are babbling about Federer's complete dominance in 2004-2007 due to lack of competition as he only faced players Roddick, Hewitt, Safin etc. They claim Nadal face tougher competition mainly because of players such as Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka.

However, if you put prime Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka at Federer's peak time of 2004-2007, would Federer still achieve as many as 11 slams?

First of all, Murray might have a better resume than Roddick or Hewitt, but what is difference it would make if you pit Murray against peak Federer as post-prime Federer only lost to prime Murray ONE TIME in grand slams in his worst year of 2013? So I don't think Murray will affect Federer's majors number.

As for Stan, he never beat Federer in HC and grass. How was he even a tough opponent for Federer?

Now come to Djokovic, I honestly believe peak Djokovic might beat peak Federer in AO. However, in 2004-2007, AO is still Rebound Ace surface which was a litter faster than current Plexicushion, and I believe it favors Federer a little bit. So it is fairly assume Djokovic might take 1 AO from Federer. As for grass and USO, I don't think Djokovic stand a chance against a peak Federer.

So Federer might get 10 slams instead of 11 slams during 2004-2007.

In conclusion, Had Federer faced prime Nole, Murray, Stan during his peak of 2004-2007, he probably still destroyed all of them and ended up with more slams titles as Federer's longevity might help him grasp more titles in 2014-2015...

What is your thought?
 
Wawrinka and Murray should be irrelevant for a player of the category of Federer. Wawrinka only won the AO 2014 because Nadal had a back injury. Nadal faced peak Federer and peak Djokovic. So I don't know if Federer could have won the 12 Grand Slams of the 2003-2007 era with peak Djokovic and peak Nadal. Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a completely hypothetical question that nobody can answer.
 
When you say Nadal faced peak Federer, you are mostly refering to clay and grass. Nadal never faced a peak Federer in HC. He won facing a prime Federer in 2008 WC and 2009 AO and I gave him full credit for that. Aside Rolland Garros, Nadal doesn't have much to show for. Among his 6 non-clay majors, only 2008 WC, 2009 AO, 2013 USO arguably are won with tougher competition. As for comparison, aside Wimbledon, Federer's slam wins at 2004 AO (opponents including Nalbandian and Safin), 2007 USO (opponents including Djokovic) , 2008 USO (opponents including Djokovic, Murray), 2017 FO( opponents including Wawrinka, Nadal) is impressive.
 
Wawrinka wouldnt be any competition for prime Federer when he loses every match to him off of clay today, and most arent that close. The only place he would have a shot of beating prime Federer is clay and Roland Garros where Federer almost never wins anyway due to Nadal, so that and he is basically moot.

Murray is moot too when he took until 2013 to record his first slam win over Federer. He could probably deny prime Federer some Masters though when he was beating him in them often in 2008-2010 but not slams.

Djokovic though would definitely deny peak Federer some slams. An Australian or two atleast. Probably would beat him at Wimbledon or/and the U.S Open at some point, even if Federer overall is clearly better at both events. Roland Garros Nadal is winning all the time anyway, so how he would do vs Federer there is again moot.

These type of topics are just asking for a fan base fight though so enjoy since that is what you are going to get in something like 1, 2, 3.....
 
Djokovic would beat Federer mostly after the 2007 AO because of the new surface. Might beat Federer at US Open every now and then.
Nadal would remain the same with his RG.
Murray might collect some Grand Slams when Federer, Djokovic, Nadal were out.
Wawrinka might get one if lucky.

In the end Federer would remain the same.
 
If Djokovic had peaked earlier with Federer and Federer maintained the same career trajectory consistency wise into his relatively advanced age, he would have absolutely cleaned up in 2015 and 2016, earning back as many grand slams as were snatched up by Djokovic between 04 and 07.
 
Shank Volley said:
If Djokovic had peaked earlier with Federer and Federer maintained the same career trajectory consistency wise into his relatively advanced age, he would have absolutely cleaned up in 2015 and 2016
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At most he wins 3 slams- 2015 Wimbledon, 2015 U.S Open, 2016 Australian Open, the only 3 slams he lost to Djokovic in 2015-2016. Still would gain a lot (at minimum 2 slams those 2 years probably) but that isnt what I call "cleaning up" either.
 
deacsyoga said:
At most he wins 3 slams- 2015 Wimbledon, 2015 U.S Open, 2016 Australian Open, the only 3 slams he lost to Djokovic in 2015-2016. Still would gain a lot (at minimum 2 slams those 2 years probably) but that isnt what I call "cleaning up" either.
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Say if they were all born in 1981. I'd predict Federer to win from 2011 onward assuming he maintains the same career trajectory:

2011 AO
2011 RG
2011 USO

2012 AO
2012 RG
2012 Wimbledon

2013 AO

2014 AO
2014 Wimbledon

2015 Wimbledon
2015 USO

2016 AO

2017 AO
2017 Wimbledon

14 slams past the age of 30 if we're being generous. 10 probably more realistic. 8 to be conservative.

Between 03-09 he'd still win like 5 Wimbldons, 5 USO, 2 AO. So 12 + 8 = 20 so he'd end up with more than he has now, and that's being conservative.
 
KINGROGER said:
Say if they were all born in 1981. I'd predict Federer to win from 2011 onward assuming he maintains the same career trajectory:

2011 AO
2011 RG
2011 USO

2012 AO
2012 RG
2012 Wimbledon

2013 AO

2014 AO
2014 Wimbledon

2015 Wimbledon
2015 USO

2016 AO

2017 AO
2017 Wimbledon

14 slams past the age of 30 if we're being generous. 10 probably more realistic. 8 to be conservative.

Between 03-09 he'd still win like 5 Wimbldons, 5 USO, 2 AO. So 12 + 8 = 20 so he'd end up with more than he has now, and that's being conservative.
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Let's not forget 2010 AO.
 
TennisSprout said:
When you say Nadal faced peak Federer, you are mostly refering to clay and grass. Nadal never faced a peak Federer in HC. He won facing a prime Federer in 2008 WC and 2009 AO and I gave him full credit for that. Aside Rolland Garros, Nadal doesn't have much to show for. Among his 6 non-clay majors, only 2008 WC, 2009 AO, 2013 USO arguably are won with tougher competition. As for comparison, aside Wimbledon, Federer's slam wins at 2004 AO (opponents including Nalbandian and Safin), 2007 USO (opponents including Djokovic) , 2008 USO (opponents including Djokovic, Murray), 2017 FO( opponents including Wawrinka, Nadal) is impressive.
Click to expand...
2013 USO? LOL. Every single one of Federer's USOs were clearly tougher.
 
Fed isn't losing to any of those guys with his footwork and forehand at peak levels. If anything, he may have an extra French or two as Peak Cvac and Peak Wawa may knock Nadal off early at the French clearing the way for Fed (ala Soderling).
 
Service Ace said:
Fed isn't losing to any of those guys with his footwork and forehand at peak levels. If anything, he may have an extra French or two as Peak Cvac and Peak Wawa may knock Nadal off early at the French clearing the way for Fed (ala Soderling).
Click to expand...
laughing-gifs-jonah-jameson.gif

Not sure if trolling truly hope this is a troll post. lol. God I hope so...:eek:
 
Fed would breeze through Stan agreed. Murray he would have his troubles from time to time. Fed would not be breezing through Djokovic. And I could see Djokovic stopping Nadal once maybe twice at the French if they met enough times peak for peak. But he would have to play error free. Stan could possibly stop Nadal at the French if he went full staminal but he has a deer in head light love affair with Fedal most of the time.
 
He would’ve won less slams. But he also would’ve won more slams during 2012 and 2014-2015 because of his longetivity. He was still competing with peak Djoker and Murray at the age of 33-35, and I’m pretty sure Murray couldn’t even beat him.
 
Service Ace said:
If anything, he may have an extra French or two as Peak Cvac and Peak Wawa may knock Nadal off early at the French clearing the way for Fed (ala Soderling).
Click to expand...

Djokovic didnt beat Nadal at the French until 2015. We saw how Wawrinka did with a post prime Nadal in the RG final this year. I dont see either of those stopping Nadal even once at RG from 2005-2014 assuming identical ages or primes, when a peaking Djokovic couldnt do it vs a slightly older and much less (than himself) peak clay Nadal. That Soderling already did it makes it less likely, since we already had the outlier, and Djokovic imparticular isnt the same kind of player as Soderling at all.

And if Djokovic is born just one year earlier his 2011 clay form coincides with 2010 Nadal who he still doesnt beat on clay, and the weaker 2011 Nadal on clay meets the much weaker 2012 Djokovic on clay, which again is no contest. 2013 Djokovic is again less competitive with 2012 Nadal (the best ever Nadal on clay apart from maybe 2008) than against 2013 Nadal. Basically Djokovic is a lot less competitive with Nadal on clay all around just being a year older if we assume the same trajectory pattern.
 
I try to be generous for Fed but still ı just cant see him winning more than 6 majors with strong competition.
 
TennisSprout said:
When you say Nadal faced peak Federer, you are mostly refering to clay and grass. Nadal never faced a peak Federer in HC. He won facing a prime Federer in 2008 WC and 2009 AO and I gave him full credit for that. Aside Rolland Garros, Nadal doesn't have much to show for. Among his 6 non-clay majors, only 2008 WC, 2009 AO, 2013 USO arguably are won with tougher competition. As for comparison, aside Wimbledon, Federer's slam wins at 2004 AO (opponents including Nalbandian and Safin), 2007 USO (opponents including Djokovic) , 2008 USO (opponents including Djokovic, Murray), 2017 FO( opponents including Wawrinka, Nadal) is impressive.
Click to expand...

2004 AO had hewitt, nalbandian, ferrero, safin in a row.
2007 USO had roddick, davydenko and djokovic in a row.
2008 USO - I'd include andreev and leave out Murray tbh. So it was Djokovic and Andreev.
2017 AO - nadal, stan, nishi.
 
abmk said:
you are missing the slams he'd gain in 11-12.
Click to expand...

Oh yes I know that, I was referring to the persons comments "he would clean up" in the years 2015 and 2016 specifically. To me cleaning up is dominating and that is not dominance. I didnt even bother going through a complete year breakdown.

Regarding Djokovic though it is almost too early to evaluate how strong he will be in older age, and he might reach a level at a similar age that is competitive with Federer in 2014-2015, or in 2011 if he comes back super strong next year, and plays quite strongly a few years from now. I know nobody expects it after this year, but this thread will be an easier one when more evidence starts coming in. He might really have faded for good, or just gone in a slump for about a year. His level in early 2016 is competitive with Federer in early 2011, at almost the same age for instance.
 
deacsyoga said:
Oh yes I know that, I was referring to the persons comments "he would clean up" in the years 2015 and 2016 specifically. To me cleaning up is dominating and that is not dominance. I didnt even bother going through a complete year breakdown.

Regarding Djokovic though it is almost too early to evaluate how strong he will be in older age, and he might reach a level at a similar age that is competitive with Federer in 2014-2015, or in 2011 if he comes back super strong next year, and plays quite strongly a few years from now. I know nobody expects it after this year, but this thread will be an easier one when more evidence starts coming in. He might really have faded for good, or just gone in a slump for about a year. His level in early 2016 is competitive with Federer in early 2011, at almost the same age for instance.
Click to expand...

fair enough.

wouldn't 2011 fed coincide with 2017 djokovic and not 2016 djokovic ?

its early, but its very hard to see any non-peak version of djokovic stopping federer at wim 15 and USO 15 - in fact, I'd say the probability is almost nil.
AO 16 -- we may have to see, but that's doubtful as well. (djokovic on slow HC at 34.5)
 
Service Ace said:
Fed isn't losing to any of those guys with his footwork and forehand at peak levels. If anything, he may have an extra French or two as Peak Cvac and Peak Wawa may knock Nadal off early at the French clearing the way for Fed (ala Soderling).
Click to expand...

Otha baadu, did you watch Djokovic at his peak? Made Nadal look like a club level player and would have beat Federer on a consistent basis as well.
 
Wawrinka never beat Federer outside of clay. Murray? Not even funny. A good version of Federer beats pretty much any version of Djokovic. Well, maybe starting from 2008 Djokovic would have an advantage in AO, because of the surface change. But overall I don't see how things would change. There was only one player who was able to actually compete against prime Federer, and that is Nadal. And not just on clay. Even at very young age he made 2006-2007 Federer work pretty hard in Wimbledon finals, and beat him in 2008. Then in AO 2009.
 
Of the 3 mentioned by the OP, only Djokovic would have been a roadblock for Fed. Murray/Stan would have been another Hewitt/Roddick.

Still, peak Djoker vs peak Fed would have been a sight to see.
 
mike danny said:
Of the 3 mentioned by the OP, only Djokovic would have been a roadblock for Fed. Murray/Stan would have been another Hewitt/Roddick.

Still, peak Djoker vs peak Fed would have been a sight to see.
Click to expand...
I know fed fans hate it but they have played some peak tennis against each other and it goes back and forth. It is a very Good match up. So we have seen it. Now if one believes mythical peak fed was a super human that could not be beat than they have not seen it. Semi normal balanced viewers have seen it.
 
TennisSprout said:
How? We see what happened in 2011, with peak Djokovic losing FO to post-prime Federer and barely winning USO by saving two match points.
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Federer fans always degrade that 2011 us open win along with Nadal fans as well. Fed was playing some peak tennis and he was pissed after that match. Older players such as fed play peak level tennis. Just not all the friggin time.
 
swordtennis said:
Federer fans always degrade that 2011 us open win along with Nadal fans as well. Fed was playing some peak tennis and he was pissed after that match. Older players such as fed play peak level tennis. Just not all the friggin time.
Click to expand...

A loss is a loss. Yeah Djokovic flukes a shot but it’s a tennis match lol. He’s not entitled to win it and he shouldn’t have lost the games after that which lead to the match loss. Think he got complacent.

Fed and Djokovic have a very good and balanced match up. There is an age gap though. Thanks fully fans have benifitted by seeing them both cross paths in their twenties as well. We have yet to see what Djokovic will be able to do in his 30s
 
Slam finals against Anderson, peurta, ferrer, soderling, berdych, wawrinka 7 slam wins against 0 clay slam winners and 3 against 1 times clay slam winners - PRETTY SURE A LITTLE SOMEONE ELSE HAS BENIFITTED FROM THIS WEKA ERA CONCEPT hahaha
mistik said:
I try to be generous for Fed but still ı just cant see him winning more than 6 majors with strong competition.
Click to expand...
 
swordtennis said:
Fed just turned 29 at the 2011 us open. Far from declined and washed up. He was gunning for that title.
Click to expand...
when you think about it, Nadal could have 4 USO:eek:
then you see fedfanboys "knowlegeable" about the game fans calling return of freaking Novak Djokovic fluke shot:D
 
TennisSprout said:
When you say Nadal faced peak Federer, you are mostly refering to clay and grass. Nadal never faced a peak Federer in HC. He won facing a prime Federer in 2008 WC and 2009 AO and I gave him full credit for that. Aside Rolland Garros, Nadal doesn't have much to show for. Among his 6 non-clay majors, only 2008 WC, 2009 AO, 2013 USO arguably are won with tougher competition. As for comparison, aside Wimbledon, Federer's slam wins at 2004 AO (opponents including Nalbandian and Safin), 2007 USO (opponents including Djokovic) , 2008 USO (opponents including Djokovic, Murray), 2017 FO( opponents including Wawrinka, Nadal) is impressive.
Click to expand...
Solid post good points
 
Noelan said:
when you think about it, Nadal could have 4 USO:eek:
then you see fedfanboys "knowlegeable" about the game fans calling return of freaking Novak Djokovic fluke shot:D
Click to expand...
Lol and the shot was the style they seem to worship as well. Letting it rip! Oh the irony! Lol damned if you do damned if you don't. Hope noleee goes back to letting it rip more.
 
peakin11mugs said:
A loss is a loss. Yeah Djokovic flukes a shot but it’s a tennis match lol. He’s not entitled to win it and he shouldn’t have lost the games after that which lead to the match loss. Think he got complacent.

Fed and Djokovic have a very good and balanced match up. There is an age gap though. Thanks fully fans have benifitted by seeing them both cross paths in their twenties as well. We have yet to see what Djokovic will be able to do in his 30s
Click to expand...
Prob not as good as fed. But ya never know maybe he can play like agassi did when he got into his early 30s. Not sure what their plan is but there is feeling that they are working on one.
 
swordtennis said:
Fed just turned 29 at the 2011 us open. Far from declined and washed up. He was gunning for that title.
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Federer's level was up there in 2011 USO, but I don't think it was a peak performance, close maybe. Anyway, look how 29-year-old Djokovic fared in 2016 USO and he lost to Stan. Coupled with his loss to Murray at 2012 USO and to Nadal at 2013 USO, I doubt Djokovic will be a constant threat to Federer in USO.
 
swordtennis said:
Lol and the shot was the style they seem to worship as well. Letting it rip! Oh the irony! Lol damned if you do damned if you don't. Hope noleee goes back to letting it rip more.
Click to expand...
Some of Wimbledons 2014/15 esp 4 from 2015 were sight to behold:D serveboterer could just watch. But uh, oh, if only Murray could be in that Final, how on Earth Fed could lost 2 Wimbledon finals to Djokovic if he was Roddick. Worst matches that he played were Wimb 14 15 and USO 15....:D:D
 
Noelan said:
Some of Wimbledons 2014/15 esp 4 from 2015 were sight to behold:D serveboterer could just watch. But uh, oh, if only Murray could be in that Final, how on Earth Fed could lost 2 Wimbledon finals to Djokovic if he was Roddick. Worst matches that he played were Wimb 14 15 and USO 15....:D:D
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Roddick would have beaten fed 2014 and 2015. He would have been destroyed in 2017 tho.:p:D
 
swordtennis said:
Roddick would have beaten fed 2014 and 2015. He would have been destroyed in 2017 tho.:p:D
Click to expand...
Srs it bugs me how majority of posters just can't deal with loss to a better player of the day but have to rely on lame excuses until they become agendas.
Not to mention hypotetical mumbo jumbo where fanboys winning in their wet dreams:confused:
 
Dumb question. "Suppose Federer's opponents had played better, or he had other, better opponents. Would Federer have still won as much?"

Well, obviously, if his opponents played better, or he had better players as opponents, he'd win less. So what? That's true for any player. They didn't. You beat the players in front of you, not hypothetical players.
 
TennisSprout said:
So many Nadal fans are babbling about Federer's complete dominance in 2004-2007 due to lack of competition as he only faced players Roddick, Hewitt, Safin etc. They claim Nadal face tougher competition mainly because of players such as Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka.

However, if you put prime Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka at Federer's peak time of 2004-2007, would Federer still achieve as many as 11 slams?

First of all, Murray might have a better resume than Roddick or Hewitt, but what is difference it would make if you pit Murray against peak Federer as post-prime Federer only lost to prime Murray ONE TIME in grand slams in his worst year of 2013? So I don't think Murray will affect Federer's majors number.

As for Stan, he never beat Federer in HC and grass. How was he even a tough opponent for Federer?

Now come to Djokovic, I honestly believe peak Djokovic might beat peak Federer in AO. However, in 2004-2007, AO is still Rebound Ace surface which was a litter faster than current Plexicushion, and I believe it favors Federer a little bit. So it is fairly assume Djokovic might take 1 AO from Federer. As for grass and USO, I don't think Djokovic stand a chance against a peak Federer.

So Federer might get 10 slams instead of 11 slams during 2004-2007.

In conclusion, Had Federer faced prime Nole, Murray, Stan during his peak of 2004-2007, he probably still destroyed all of them and ended up with more slams titles as Federer's longevity might help him grasp more titles in 2014-2015...

What is your thought?
Click to expand...

All your assumptions are based on what happened so far - not necessarily they would have happened in the same manner had all these players peaked at the same time or if they were from the same generation, so the conclusion is quite false and drastic. Whatever happened so far was one thing leading to another giving birth to new desires therefore, new achievements. Unless of course you assume we are all bunch of robots then I rest my case.
 
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