Image Djokovic, Murray, Stan peaked during 2004-2007

[Noelan]

Old washed up , broken back, post mono, with no Fh just serve, running away from his master, lost the year before at Open

 

[tennis_pro]

I can imagine Murray peaking at the time and getting his a** handed to him by Lord Fedr time after time again.

Other than that Wawrinka wouldn't touch Fed due to the match-up (other than the odd match on clay). Djokovic could cause some problems at AO and FO but he wouldn't beat Federer at Wimbledon/US/WTF other than an odd time.

 

[Jonas78]

He would win less 2004-2010, but a lot more post 2010. He would probably end with a few more than 19...

 

[The_Order]

When you say Nadal faced peak Federer, you are mostly refering to clay and grass. Nadal never faced a peak Federer in HC. He won facing a prime Federer in 2008 WC and 2009 AO and I gave him full credit for that. Aside Rolland Garros, Nadal doesn't have much to show for. Among his 6 non-clay majors, only 2008 WC, 2009 AO, 2013 USO arguably are won with tougher competition. As for comparison, aside Wimbledon, Federer's slam wins at 2004 AO (opponents including Nalbandian and Safin), 2007 USO (opponents including Djokovic) , 2008 USO (opponents including Djokovic, Murray), 2017 FO( opponents including Wawrinka, Nadal) is impressive.

AO04 did have Safin, but since you weren't born at that stage let me inform you of something, Safin was totally and utterly exhausted by the time he played that final. Pumping up that win v Safin is the very definition of clutching at straws. Fed's toughest opponent at AO04 was by far Nalbandian, the perennial slam choker. Hewitt was coming back from his worst season on tour having dropped from #1 to #17, JC Ferrero played ok but nothing worthy of a #3 ranked player. So in reality it was one tough opponent, the rest were nothing special.

As for 2008 US Open what the HELL was tough about beating Murray? He played like absolute garbage in that final clearly overawed by the occasion.

You say prime Federer in WIM08 and AO09, but he played at his best level in both of those matches. WIM08 he got to the final without dropping a set. Now, lets put that into a bit of perspective, he won Halle without dropping a set and the opponents he beat at Wimbledon were in no particular order: Hewitt, Ancic, Soderling and Safin. ALL beaten without dropping a single set. Even in 2006, he didn't win Halle and get to the WIM final without losing a set. In fact, in Halle 2006 he nearly lost 3 matches (on the brink against O.Rochus of all players) and Berdych took him to a decider in the final. So 2008 Wimbledon was Fed playing at peak level despite him not being peak throughout the year.

AO09 Fed's ground game was as good as its ever been. You cannot name one AO match where Fed played a better ground game than that final aside from the final set. If Fed had played Roddick in that final he would've absolutely destroyed him just like he did in 07. In fact, probably anyone from the 04-07 era (apart from Safin in 05) would've been absolutely crushed by that version of Fed as well, they wouldn't stand a chance of even taking it to 4 sets let alone 5.

So yeah, none of Fed's slam victories apart from this year's AO are as impressive as Nadal's WIM08 and AO09 victories.

 

[NatF]

AO04 did have Safin, but since you weren't born at that stage let me inform you of something, Safin was totally and utterly exhausted by the time he played that final. Pumping up that win v Safin is the very definition of clutching at straws. Fed's toughest opponent at AO04 was by far Nalbandian, the perennial slam choker. Hewitt was coming back from his worst season on tour having dropped from #1 to #17, JC Ferrero played ok but nothing worthy of a #3 ranked player. So in reality it was one tough opponent, the rest were nothing special.

As for 2008 US Open what the HELL was tough about beating Murray? He played like absolute garbage in that final clearly overawed by the occasion.

You say prime Federer in WIM08 and AO09, but he played at his best level in both of those matches. WIM08 he got to the final without dropping a set. Now, lets put that into a bit of perspective, he won Halle without dropping a set and the opponents he beat at Wimbledon were in no particular order: Hewitt, Ancic, Soderling and Safin. ALL beaten without dropping a single set. Even in 2006, he didn't win Halle and get to the WIM final without losing a set. In fact, in Halle 2006 he nearly lost 3 matches (on the brink against O.Rochus of all players) and Berdych took him to a decider in the final. So 2008 Wimbledon was Fed playing at peak level despite him not being peak throughout the year.

AO09 Fed's ground game was as good as its ever been. You cannot name one AO match where Fed played a better ground game than that final aside from the final set. If Fed had played Roddick in that final he would've absolutely destroyed him just like he did in 07. In fact, probably anyone from the 04-07 era (apart from Safin in 05) would've been absolutely crushed by that version of Fed as well, they wouldn't stand a chance of even taking it to 4 sets let alone 5.

So yeah, none of Fed's slam victories apart from this year's AO are as impressive as Nadal's WIM08 and AO09 victories.

Wimbledon 2007 is as impressive as those 2. Quality of play was just as good.

Edit: Well as impressive as Wimbledon 2008 anyway, at the AO Nadal had 2 crazy opponents - the most impressive win in this era possibly.

 

[The_Order]

Wimbledon 2007 is as impressive as those 2. Quality of play was just as good.

Yeah but Fed had a walk over and overall light schedule leading into that final. Also, the 07 final had 2 noncompetitive sets. 4th set was a blowout for Nadal and the 5th was for Roger. 08 final each set was highly contested only 1 break separated Rafa in the 1st 2 sets and then 2 TBs followed by a 9-7 5th set. And no, Fed's WIM07 was nowhere near as impressive as Rafa's AO09 when you consider the semi v Verdasco as well. Nadal practically had to play 10 sets of the highest level and intensity in a row or else he doesn't win that title.

 

[NatF]

Yeah but Fed had a walk over and overall light schedule leading into that final. Also, the 07 final had 2 noncompetitive sets. 4th set was a blowout for Nadal and the 5th was for Roger. 08 final each set was highly contested only 1 break separated Rafa in the 1st 2 sets and then 2 TBs followed by a 9-7 5th set. And no, Fed's WIM07 was nowhere near as impressive as Rafa's AO09 when you consider the semi v Verdasco as well. Nadal practically had to play 10 sets of the highest level and intensity in a row or else he doesn't win that title.

I edited my post.

The quality of the 2007 Wimbledon and 2008 Wimbledon finals are basically the same. Federer had a walkover to the final so only had to play 6 matches but it's not like Nadal's draw to the final in 2008 was hard either.

 

[The_Order]

I edited my post.

The quality of the 2007 Wimbledon and 2008 Wimbledon finals are basically the same. Federer had a walkover to the final so only had to play 6 matches but it's not like Nadal's draw to the final in 2008 was hard either.

Yes but you need to remember beating Federer in a WIM final far outweighs Fed beating Rafa in a WIM final. It was a monumental victory.

If Fed beat prime Nadal at RG then you'd have a case.

As for Nadal having an easy draw in 08, while I agree the road to the final wasn't particularly hard, Nadal did have a tough match against Gulbis in the 2nd or 3rd round. This is before Nadal sucked in the first week at WIM, he was coming off a victory at Queens over Novak who played really well in that final but I distinctly remembering Gulbis playing really well and giving Nadal a tough match, nearly taking him to 5 sets.

So with all that taken into consideration, WIM08 for Rafa was tougher than WIM07 for Fed.

 

[The_Order]

Edit: Well as impressive as Wimbledon 2008 anyway, at the AO Nadal had 2 crazy opponents - the most impressive win in this era possibly.

Just on this point, had Nadal managed to hold onto that break in the 5th in AO2012 it quite possibly would've been rated higher. Berdych played mental in that 2012 QF, never seen him play that well at the AO, then there was Fed in the SF where Nadal played some unreal tennis to beat him, some of the gets from Nadal in that match were crazy.

Then Novak on the other side of the draw had it pretty hard as well against Murray. It could quite possibly have been the toughest slam in terms of how well the 'big 4' were playing. 2011 US Open would be up there as well.

 

[NatF]

Yes but you need to remember beating Federer in a WIM final far outweighs Fed beating Rafa in a WIM final. It was a monumental victory.

If Fed beat prime Nadal at RG then you'd have a case.

As for Nadal having an easy draw in 08, while I agree the road to the final wasn't particularly hard, Nadal did have a tough match against Gulbis in the 2nd or 3rd round. This is before Nadal sucked in the first week at WIM, he was coming off a victory at Queens over Novak who played really well in that final but I distinctly remembering Gulbis playing really well and giving Nadal a tough match, nearly taking him to 5 sets.

So with all that taken into consideration, WIM08 for Rafa was tougher than WIM07 for Fed.

The intangibles side with Rafa I agree with that but the quality of play was very similar and that's what I care the most about.

Gulbis did play very well against Nadal, better than anyone Federer faced before the final in 2007. But I think Ferrero and Gasquet collectively were better than Murray/Schuettler in 2008 - although Federer was a little bit rusty from not playing against Ferrero which made it tougher. I'm not going to argue too much if you give the edge to 2008 as long as you agree they're in the same ball park.

Just on this point, had Nadal managed to hold onto that break in the 5th in AO2012 it quite possibly would've been rated higher. Berdych played mental in that 2012 QF, never seen him play that well at the AO, then there was Fed in the SF where Nadal played some unreal tennis to beat him, some of the gets from Nadal in that match were crazy.

Then Novak on the other side of the draw had it pretty hard as well against Murray. It could quite possibly have been the toughest slam in terms of how well the 'big 4' were playing. 2011 US Open would be up there as well.

I'd still rate 2009 as tougher to be honest. Berdych was really really good in the QF but as a pair Federer and Djokovic weren't as good as Dasco and Federer in 2009. The court seemed crazy slow in 2012 so maybe that's influencing my opinion a bit.

I rate Nadal's 2013 FO pretty highly, I think the SF with Djokovic is a little overrated but the overall draw was absolutely stacked. Brands and Klizan aren't easy R1 and R2 opponents, both guys can play on clay. Then after that Fognini, Nishikori and Wawrinka. Pretty deep. You may disagree but I feel similarly about Federer's 2004 Wimbledon draw, the first 2 rounds were very soft but Johansson, Karlovic, Hewitt, Grosjean and then Roddick on grass is pretty tough.

 

[mike danny]

@The_Order and @NatF, I'm glad we can have peaceful discussions between opposing fanbases

 

[TennisSprout]

AO04 did have Safin, but since you weren't born at that stage let me inform you of something, Safin was totally and utterly exhausted by the time he played that final. Pumping up that win v Safin is the very definition of clutching at straws. Fed's toughest opponent at AO04 was by far Nalbandian, the perennial slam choker. Hewitt was coming back from his worst season on tour having dropped from #1 to #17, JC Ferrero played ok but nothing worthy of a #3 ranked player. So in reality it was one tough opponent, the rest were nothing special.

As for 2008 US Open what the HELL was tough about beating Murray? He played like absolute garbage in that final clearly overawed by the occasion.

You say prime Federer in WIM08 and AO09, but he played at his best level in both of those matches. WIM08 he got to the final without dropping a set. Now, lets put that into a bit of perspective, he won Halle without dropping a set and the opponents he beat at Wimbledon were in no particular order: Hewitt, Ancic, Soderling and Safin. ALL beaten without dropping a single set. Even in 2006, he didn't win Halle and get to the WIM final without losing a set. In fact, in Halle 2006 he nearly lost 3 matches (on the brink against O.Rochus of all players) and Berdych took him to a decider in the final. So 2008 Wimbledon was Fed playing at peak level despite him not being peak throughout the year.

AO09 Fed's ground game was as good as its ever been. You cannot name one AO match where Fed played a better ground game than that final aside from the final set. If Fed had played Roddick in that final he would've absolutely destroyed him just like he did in 07. In fact, probably anyone from the 04-07 era (apart from Safin in 05) would've been absolutely crushed by that version of Fed as well, they wouldn't stand a chance of even taking it to 4 sets let alone 5.

So yeah, none of Fed's slam victories apart from this year's AO are as impressive as Nadal's WIM08 and AO09 victories.

Seriously? Reaching a Wimbledon final without dropping a set doesn't mean you are at your peak level and only means you are constantly at a high level. Federer also did it at Wimbledon at 35 years old this year!!! As for 2009 AO final, you do realize Federer only served like 50% of first serve in? With or without ground game, if you considered this as a peak level, then you are full of sh**t.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Peak for peak nobody of the other guys is beating Federer at Wimbledon or USO.

Same for clay and Nadal.

At the AO it is a wash between Djokovic and Federer with slight advantage for Djokovic.

 

[The_Order]

The intangibles side with Rafa I agree with that but the quality of play was very similar and that's what I care the most about.

Gulbis did play very well against Nadal, better than anyone Federer faced before the final in 2007. But I think Ferrero and Gasquet collectively were better than Murray/Schuettler in 2008 - although Federer was a little bit rusty from not playing against Ferrero which made it tougher. I'm not going to argue too much if you give the edge to 2008 as long as you agree they're in the same ball park.



I'd still rate 2009 as tougher to be honest. Berdych was really really good in the QF but as a pair Federer and Djokovic weren't as good as Dasco and Federer in 2009. The court seemed crazy slow in 2012 so maybe that's influencing my opinion a bit.

I rate Nadal's 2013 FO pretty highly, I think the SF with Djokovic is a little overrated but the overall draw was absolutely stacked. Brands and Klizan aren't easy R1 and R2 opponents, both guys can play on clay. Then after that Fognini, Nishikori and Wawrinka. Pretty deep. You may disagree but I feel similarly about Federer's 2004 Wimbledon draw, the first 2 rounds were very soft but Johansson, Karlovic, Hewitt, Grosjean and then Roddick on grass is pretty tough.

No actually I agree that WIM04 was definitely one of the tougher ones for Fed. Roddick played really well in that final.

As for WIM07 in the same ball park as WIM08, I don't think so. We'll never change our opinions on it, but as I said earlier, the degree of difficulty in beating prime Federer in a WIM final far outweighs the degree of difficulty of beating prime Nadal in a WIM final. Rafa obviously played extremely well in that final but Wimbledon is Fed's pet slam. It's where he is king and to take him down in that fashion, there's no Fed slam victory that rates above it. Had he taken prime Rafa down in an RG final, then we're talking the same ball park.

I honestly think Fed's most impressive slam was this year's AO. Gotta give the old man credit where it's due, he missed 6 months and came back to take down 4 top 10 players surviving three 5 setters and beating Nadal for the first time at a major in almost 10 years. The only thing that lets it down is that I don't think anyone was really playing their best tennis apart from Dimitrov. Fed was quite patchy as you'd expect given the time he had out and age, Nadal was patchy again as you'd expect given he hadn't played much tennis going in to it either and hadn't been in slam finals for nearly 3 years. Wawrinka was patchy, Kei was patchy, Berdych, Novak, Murray, Thiem, Raonic, Monfils and Cilic were all crap. The quality of tennis from the whole field just wasn't as high as AO09 and AO12.

 

[fedtennisphan]

Ha! Ha! Another thread to discredit Federer. First it’s the Laver Cup, the GS record and his fame. So much effort only strengthens his argument for greatness. Also once again using multiple players to discredit him.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Ha! Ha! Another thread to discredit Federer. First it’s the Laver Cup, the GS record and his fame. So much effort only strengthens his agreement for greatness.

Yep.

Federer has been in everybody's mind, while the current #1 and holder of 2 Majors is barely paid attention to even from the ************* in its new members entirety.

 

[The_Order]

Seriously? Reaching a Wimbledon final without dropping a set doesn't mean you are at your peak level and only means you are constantly at a high level. Federer also did it at Wimbledon at 35 years old this year!!! As for 2009 AO final, you do realize Federer only served like 50% of first serve in? With or without ground game, if you considered this as a peak level, then you are full of sh**t.

Like I said, you weren't born till after 2004.

Did you not read the part where I listed the opponents Fed beat in 08? Yeah let's compare Hewitt, Ancic, Soderling and Safin to Berdych, Raonic and Dimitrov what a tool

Your peak Fed served the same in the AO04 final against Safin and against Roddick in AO07 SF as well as v Baghdatis in AO06 final you clueless troll.

v Safin AO 04 -> 53% 1st serve
v Baghdatis AO06 -> 53% 1st serve
v Roddick AO07 -> 51% 1st serve
v Nadal AO09 -> 52% 1st serve

NO difference...

Rafa beat peak level Fed in WIM08 and AO09. Suck it up princess.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Like I said...

Rafa beat peak level Fed in WIM08 and AO09. Suck it up princess.

That is one of those things that will not become true even if you repeat it a hundred times.

Or a thousand.

Or a million.

I will not invite you to suck it up, because you already do. Hard.

 

[The_Order]

That is one of those things that will not become true even if you repeat it a hundred times.

Or a thousand.

Or a million.

I will not invite you to suck it up, because you already do. Hard.

Wrong you tool. It won't be false no matter how much you whine about it. Your hero played as well as he could have the only difference was he had peak Rafa on the other side of the net and couldn't beat him. Anyone else in WIM08 and AO09 (well, except for peak Novak and only at AO) and he would've won COMFORTABLY. That's why he cried when he lost, he knew he couldn't have played better and still lost it was incredibly hard for him to accept that just like all of his fans keep crying and living in denial.

 

[fedtennisphan]

Ha! Ha! My thread about the Laver Cup hate was deleted for trolling but this thread gets to stay and other threads the incite **** wars or discrediting Federer get to stay. By deleting my thread only proved my point.

 

[The_Order]

Ha! Ha! My thread about the Laver Cup hate was deleted for trolling but this thread gets to stay and other threads the incite **** wars or discrediting Federer get to stay. By deleting my thread only proved my point.

Only a matter of time till your account gets deleted.

 

[KINGROGER]

We already saw how Federer vs Djokovic goes prime for prime at USO:

And post prime 30 year old Federer owned peak Djokovic at both RG and Wimbledon.

 

[NatF]

No actually I agree that WIM04 was definitely one of the tougher ones for Fed. Roddick played really well in that final.

As for WIM07 in the same ball park as WIM08, I don't think so. We'll never change our opinions on it, but as I said earlier, the degree of difficulty in beating prime Federer in a WIM final far outweighs the degree of difficulty of beating prime Nadal in a WIM final. Rafa obviously played extremely well in that final but Wimbledon is Fed's pet slam. It's where he is king and to take him down in that fashion, there's no Fed slam victory that rates above it. Had he taken prime Rafa down in an RG final, then we're talking the same ball park.

I honestly think Fed's most impressive slam was this year's AO. Gotta give the old man credit where it's due, he missed 6 months and came back to take down 4 top 10 players surviving three 5 setters and beating Nadal for the first time at a major in almost 10 years. The only thing that lets it down is that I don't think anyone was really playing their best tennis apart from Dimitrov. Fed was quite patchy as you'd expect given the time he had out and age, Nadal was patchy again as you'd expect given he hadn't played much tennis going in to it either and hadn't been in slam finals for nearly 3 years. Wawrinka was patchy, Kei was patchy, Berdych, Novak, Murray, Thiem, Raonic, Monfils and Cilic were all crap. The quality of tennis from the whole field just wasn't as high as AO09 and AO12.

You could definitely make an argument that mentally it was more difficult for Nadal to beat Federer in 2008 than the other way around in 2007. But considering Federer's year in 2008 and Nadal's I think that mitigates it somewhat. We can agree to disagree, we have different perspectives on this stuff.

I don't think Berdych was crap at the AO this year, he didn't have a higher gear like in some other years (especially 2012) but he didn't really put a foot wrong - Federer was just really good. Everyone else was pretty patchy that's true but Kei and Wawrinka had patches of superb play. The Dimitrov vs Nadal SF is probably the match of the year for me, incredible match. Kinda funny that despite so many top players not being at their best the AO was still the best and most competitive slam of the year.

 

[fedtennisphan]

Only a matter of time till your account gets deleted.

That’s unfortunate when I didn’t attack you in the Laver Cup thread and I even thank you for your response. Trying to delete my account only strengthens my argument.

 

[The_Order]

That’s unfortunate when I didn’t attack you in the Laver Cup thread and I even thank you for your response. Trying to delete my account only strengthens my argument.

It's obvious you're a troll. That's why the mods deleted your thread and you'll be on close watch now which only strengthens your chance of being banned.

 

[fedtennisphan]

It's obvious you're a troll. That's why the mods deleted your thread and you'll be on close watch now which only strengthens your chance of being banned.

Wrong. I am not a troll. I said something that hit to close to home and I think it’s cowardly to delete my thread instead of manning up. Trying to ban me is even more cowardly.

 

[TennisSprout]

Like I said, you weren't born till after 2004.

Did you not read the part where I listed the opponents Fed beat in 08? Yeah let's compare Hewitt, Ancic, Soderling and Safin to Berdych, Raonic and Dimitrov what a tool

Your peak Fed served the same in the AO04 final against Safin and against Roddick in AO07 SF as well as v Baghdatis in AO06 final you clueless troll.

v Safin AO 04 -> 53% 1st serve
v Baghdatis AO06 -> 53% 1st serve
v Roddick AO07 -> 51% 1st serve
v Nadal AO09 -> 52% 1st serve

NO difference...

Rafa beat peak level Fed in WIM08 and AO09. Suck it up princess.

You seriously consider Federer's peak level can only get 50% of first serve in? Well, you are utterly delusional. All those matches you mentioned only proved Federer's superiority when he was not at his best. 2004-2007 is Federer's peak time, which is not saying he had peak level in every match he played.

Why don't you go and check some other games (such as 2004 WC final, 2007 WC final, 2007 USO final) where Federer played his peak game and how his serve held up?

 

[The_Order]

You could definitely make an argument that mentally it was more difficult for Nadal to beat Federer in 2008 than the other way around in 2007. But considering Federer's year in 2008 and Nadal's I think that mitigates it somewhat. We can agree to disagree, we have different perspectives on this stuff.

I don't think Berdych was crap at the AO this year, he didn't have a higher gear like in some other years (especially 2012) but he didn't really put a foot wrong - Federer was just really good. Everyone else was pretty patchy that's true but Kei and Wawrinka had patches of superb play. The Dimitrov vs Nadal SF is probably the match of the year for me, incredible match. Kinda funny that despite so many top players not being at their best the AO was still the best and most competitive slam of the year.

Yeah you see, I never really understood people taking the whole season into account when talking about particular matches/tournaments. Fed was terrible at RG08 final, but I don't see how that had any bearing on his performance at Wimbledon. Fed missed 6 months coming into this year's AO and it made no difference. Nadal had a relatively crap 12 months heading into 2010 clay season but absolutely dominated. I don't think Fed's results in 08 prior to Halle had any bearing on his performance whatsoever and the way he was playing in Halle and WIM is proof of that.

As for this year's AO, definitely was the best slam of the year, no contest.

 

[The_Order]

Wrong. I am not a troll. I said something that hit to close to home and I think it’s cowardly to delete my thread instead of manning up. Trying to ban me is even more cowardly.

I'm not trying to ban you, you're doing a fine job at that yourself. Keep going...

 

[The_Order]

You seriously consider Federer's peak level can only get 50% of first serve in? Well, you are utterly delusional. All those matches you mentioned only proved Federer's superiority when he was not at his best. 2004-2007 is Federer's peak time, which is not saying he had peak level in every match he played.

Why don't you go and check some other games (such as 2004 WC final, 2007 WC final, 2007 USO final) where Federer played his peak game and how his serve held up?

You're clutching at straws. Fed's ground game in those matches wasn't as good as AO09 final. Djokovic owned Fed in the first 2 sets in that final and only lost them because he choked because it was his first slam final. WC finals are played indoors which means wind isn't a factor but of course because you're clueless so you wouldn't understand that.

Most Fed fans would consider his AO07 SF destruction of Roddick a near perfect performance. But now when I mention his serve was similar to AO09, he wasn't playing peak tennis? LOL Like I said, you weren't born till after 2004.

 

[NatF]

Yeah you see, I never really understood people taking the whole season into account when talking about particular matches/tournaments. Fed was terrible at RG08 final, but I don't see how that had any bearing on his performance at Wimbledon. Fed missed 6 months coming into this year's AO and it made no difference. Nadal had a relatively crap 12 months heading into 2010 clay season but absolutely dominated. I don't think Fed's results in 08 prior to Halle had any bearing on his performance whatsoever and the way he was playing in Halle and WIM is proof of that.

As for this year's AO, definitely was the best slam of the year, no contest.

If you don't think seasons come into play when looking at particular matches/tournaments then surely the same is true for career performances?

Federer was low in confidence and it showed in the first couple of sets of the 2008 final. He didn't play badly but there was a spark missing from his game compared to previous years. That's where I think his year and especially that defeat to Nadal at the French a month early came into play. In general I do focus on how they play in the particular matches.

 

[TennisSprout]

You're clutching at straws. Fed's ground game in those matches wasn't as good as AO09 final. Djokovic owned Fed in the first 2 sets in that final and only lost them because he choked because it was his first slam final. WC finals are played indoors which means wind isn't a factor but of course because you're clueless so you wouldn't understand that.

Most Fed fans would consider his AO07 SF destruction of Roddick a near perfect performance. But now when I mention his serve was similar to AO09, he wasn't playing peak tennis? LOL Like I said, you weren't born till after 2004.

Man, you do realize that Federer's average 1st Serve is a little more than 60%? And you you call 50% a peak performance? As I said, all the matches you mentioned only proved Federer's superiority as Federer could still destroy his opponents when one of his weapons was not working well.

It seems very difficult for you to understand how to use evidence to back up your conclusion. So I will not respond to you any more.

 

[The_Order]

If you don't think seasons come into play when looking at particular matches/tournaments then surely the same is true for career performances?

Federer was low in confidence and it showed in the first couple of sets of the 2008 final. He didn't play badly but there was a spark missing from his game compared to previous years. That's where I think his year and especially that defeat to Nadal at the French a month early came into play. In general I do focus on how they play in the particular matches.

Fed had his chances in the first 2 sets as well. If there's anything to criticize it would be his second serve returns on break points.

Fed copped only 1 BP in the first and couldn't save it. Rafa face 3 but saved them all. Fed's return points won % -> 36%, Rafa's -> 28%

Second set, Rafa faced 3 BP again and saved 2 whereas Rog faced 3 and only saved 1. Fed's return points won % -> 40.5%, Rafa's -> 40%

That isn't indicative of a player without confidence, earning more BP opportunities and winning more return points than his opponent. Nadal just played the important points better which was the difference.

WIM07 F Fed had 80W to 59UE (+21), WIM08 he had 98W to 66UE (+32).

 

[underground]

Wouldn't change a thing at the end, he'll win less slams pre-2011, but will wipe the floor afterwards.

 

[KINGROGER]

You're clutching at straws. Fed's ground game in those matches wasn't as good as AO09 final. Djokovic owned Fed in the first 2 sets in that final and only lost them because he choked because it was his first slam final. WC finals are played indoors which means wind isn't a factor but of course because you're clueless so you wouldn't understand that.

Most Fed fans would consider his AO07 SF destruction of Roddick a near perfect performance. But now when I mention his serve was similar to AO09, he wasn't playing peak tennis? LOL Like I said, you weren't born till after 2004.

No to all, and Djokovic didn't own anything. Federer comfortably won in straight sets, playing in cruise control mode at about 70% of his peak level.

 

[The_Order]

Man, you do realize that Federer's average 1st Serve is a little more than 60%? And you you call 50% a peak performance? As I said, all the matches you mentioned only proved Federer's superiority as Federer could still destroy his opponents when one of his weapons was not working.

It seems very difficult for you to understand how to use evidence to back up your conclusion. So I will not respond to you any more.

You can't respond, you have no point to backup your claims. 50% 1st serve percentage was not unusual for Federer during 04-07 you don't just judge a performance on the serve.

You use the 2007 US final to show a peak performance? LOL Novak had 6 set points in the 1st set and 2 set points in the second and couldn't convert any of them because he choked.

Then you use 2 matches that were played INDOORS to show how well 'peak' Fed really serves. What a joke.

You literally have NO clue.

 

[The_Order]

So he choked set 1. Big deal. He didn't "own" Federer. Fed was playing in cruise control mode and upped his level when required.

He choked both first 2 sets. If Fed was in cruise control how can it be considered a peak performance? Your fellow Fed brethren worshipper said US07 final was a peak performance, so explain how it was peak performance when he was in cruise control and only upped his game when required? The two points contradict each other big time.

Also, do you not think AO07 SF match v Roddick was a peak performance? Or at least, which match did Fed play better v Roddick AO07 or v Novak US07? Your answers will tell me how much you know (or don't know) about this sport.

 

[KINGROGER]

He choked both first 2 sets. If Fed was in cruise control how can it be considered a peak performance? Your fellow Fed brethren worshipper said US07 final was a peak performance, so explain how it was peak performance when he was in cruise control and only upped his game when required? The two points contradict each other big time.

Also, do you not think AO07 SF match v Roddick was a peak performance? Or at least, which match did Fed play better v Roddick AO07 or v Novak US07? Your answers will tell me how much you know (or don't know) about this sport.

Played better vs Roddick but USO07 was still peak level overall. The only peak level play in 08 was USO.

 

[NatF]

Fed had his chances in the first 2 sets as well. If there's anything to criticize it would be his second serve returns on break points.

Fed copped only 1 BP in the first and couldn't save it. Rafa face 3 but saved them all. Fed's return points won % -> 36%, Rafa's -> 28%

Second set, Rafa faced 3 BP again and saved 2 whereas Rog faced 3 and only saved 1. Fed's return points won % -> 40.5%, Rafa's -> 40%

That isn't indicative of a player without confidence, earning more BP opportunities and winning more return points than his opponent. Nadal just played the important points better which was the difference.

WIM07 F Fed had 80W to 59UE (+21), WIM08 he had 98W to 66UE (+32).

The winner to error differential doesn't show too much. When 2 matches are of equal quality the one that lasts longer will have the better differential. It's missing the forced errors as well. Federer was more aggressive in 2008 off the ground (more winners and more errors) and served worse. He was slightly better in 2007 overall and slightly worse again a year later in 2009.

Those look like the TA stats rather than the official?

I could say that not playing the big points well is indicative of lacking confidence. Federer's returns on grass dropped harshly in 2007 compared to 2006, he didn't return well in any of those three 5 set finals from 2007-2009.

 

[TennisSprout]

You can't respond, you have no point to backup your claims. 50% 1st serve percentage was not unusual for Federer during 04-07 you don't just judge a performance on the serve.

You use the 2007 US final to show a peak performance? LOL Novak had 6 set points in the 1st set and 2 set points in the second and couldn't convert any of them because he choked.

Then you use 2 matches that were played INDOORS to show how well 'peak' Fed really serves. What a joke.

You literally have NO clue.

1. Go and check what is the average percent of Federer's 1st Serve during 2004-2007.
2. WC means Wimbledon Championships.
3. I don't know what is your age or education. However, by the way of your arguing without statistics to back you up, I will consider you as a clown and will not respond to you anymore.

 

[The_Order]

Played better vs Roddick but USO07 was still peak level overall. The only peak level play in 08 was USO.

Yeah because that's the only major he won what a surprise

It typical Fed fan rubbish where the only time he played his best was when he won LOL

Now tell me, how can Fed play better peak tennis in AO07 SF than US07 final when he served only 51% in AO07 SF?

 

[KINGROGER]

Yeah because that's the only major he won what a surprise

It typical Fed fan rubbish where the only time he played his best was when he won LOL

Now tell me, how can Fed play better peak tennis in AO07 SF than US07 final when he served only 51% in AO07 SF?

If Fed was playing peak level tennis all year round in 08, he would win his usual triple of AO, Wimbledon, USO. Anyone with working eyesight can see USO 08 was his only peak level tournament that year.

 

[The_Order]

If Fed was playing peak level tennis all year round in 08, he would win his usual triple of AO, Wimbledon, USO. Anyone with working eyesight can see USO 08 was his only peak level tournament that year.

I didn't say he played peak tennis all year around, learn how to read. I said he played peak level tennis at Wimbledon and he did. How else can you explain he wins Halle and gets to the final beating Hewitt, Ancic, Soderling and Safin without even losing ONE set in BOTH tournaments? Like I said, the only difference was he had peak Rafa on the other side of the net and that's the reason he lost. He would've beat anyone else.

 

[The_Order]

1. Go and check what is the average percent of Federer's 1st Serve during 2004-2007.
2. WC means Wimbledon Championships.
3. I don't know what is your age or education. However, by the way of your arguing without statistics to back you up, I will consider you as a clown and will not respond to you anymore.

1. Why don't you check Fed's average 1st serve from 08-12 because it's better than 04-07. I guess Fed was playing peak tennis from 08-12 then too right?
2. Even on grass, serve percentages always tend to be higher, you don't compare grass with hard court. The conditions are totally different.
3. You don't know my age but I know your age is less than 14 years

 

[The_Order]

The winner to error differential doesn't show too much. When 2 matches are of equal quality the one that lasts longer will have the better differential. It's missing the forced errors as well. Federer was more aggressive in 2008 off the ground (more winners and more errors) and served worse. He was slightly better in 2007 overall and slightly worse again a year later in 2009.

Those look like the TA stats rather than the official?

I could say that not playing the big points well is indicative of lacking confidence. Federer's returns on grass dropped harshly in 2007 compared to 2006, he didn't return well in any of those three 5 set finals from 2007-2009.

1. Same argument can be made for Rafa in WIM07 not having confidence.

2. I've used the official stats for Wimbledon in the past and these don't seem too different.

3. Nadal had only 1 BP in the first set, hardly indicative of Fed lacking confidence. I've always felt that Fed struggled with Nadal's serve on grass more than anyone else including Roddick. The spin and being a lefty made it really tricky for Fed. With Roddick the tactic was simple and effective, block it back and get the point neutralized where Fed would have the advantage. In 2009, Fed's return was not the same, hence the reason Roddick was able to get as close as he did.

 

[KINGROGER]

I didn't say he played peak tennis all year around, learn how to read. I said he played peak level tennis at Wimbledon and he did. How else can you explain he wins Halle and gets to the final beating Hewitt, Ancic, Soderling and Safin without even losing ONE set in BOTH tournaments? Like I said, the only difference was he had peak Rafa on the other side of the net and that's the reason he lost. He would've beat anyone else.

Nah neither 07 or 08 were peak Wimbledon performances except maybe 5th set of 07 and 4th set tiebreak 08. His 03-06 level was higher. You can visibly see that his FH is nowhere near as lethal after 06 and his returns suck. As for winning Halle and reaching Wimbledon final, even 14-15 grandpa "no baseline game" Federer can do it so that is no benchmark.

Heck, I'd probably take 2012 over 2008.

 

[The_Order]

Nah neither 07 or 08 were peak Wimbledon performances. His 03-06 level was higher. You can visibly see that his FH is nowhere near as lethal after 06 and his returns suck. As for winning Halle and reaching Wimbledon final, even 14-15 grandpa "no baseline game" Federer can do it so that is no benchmark.

Heck, I'd probably take 2012 over 2008.

2012 he nearly lost to Benneteau in the 3rd round.

'Grandpa' Fed didn't do it against the players he did in 08.

Like I said, peak Rafa is the reason he lost.

 

[KINGROGER]

2012 he nearly lost to Benneteau in the 3rd round.

'Grandpa' Fed didn't do it against the players he did in 08.

Like I said, peak Rafa is the reason he lost.

I meant generally in the SF/F. Not bothered about early round slip ups. Yes he did - he took down 2015 Murray in straight sets who is as good as 08 Hewitt on grass.

The main reason he lost was his decline in level. If he was at his peak then it might go to 5 sets but more likely 4.

 

[NatF]

1. Same argument can be made for Rafa in WIM07 not having confidence.

2. I've used the official stats for Wimbledon in the past and these don't seem too different.

3. Nadal had only 1 BP in the first set, hardly indicative of Fed lacking confidence. I've always felt that Fed struggled with Nadal's serve on grass more than anyone else including Roddick. The spin and being a lefty made it really tricky for Fed. With Roddick the tactic was simple and effective, block it back and get the point neutralized where Fed would have the advantage. In 2009, Fed's return was not the same, hence the reason Roddick was able to get as close as he did.

1. Do you think Rafa lacked confidence in the big points or elsewhere? Or are you just saying that argument could be made? Nadal played better in the first couple of sets in 2007 than Federer in 2008. We can agree to disagree but I think Federer's play freed up when his back was against the wall, Nadal tightened up at some critical junctures IIRC.

2. I remember them being quite different but I can't get onto matchstat to check right now.

3. Nadal's serve in general not just on grass has always been tough for Federer, Nadal handles the slice return better than anyone.

 

[The_Order]

I meant generally in the SF/F. Not bothered about early round slip ups. Yes he did - he took down 2015 Murray in straight sets who is as good as 08 Hewitt on grass.

The main reason he lost was his decline in level. If he was at his peak then it might go to 5 sets but more likely 4.

Fed turned back the clock in that WIM15 match. Don't make it look like he was nothing like he used to be yet still smashed an in form Murray.

His level looked better because his opponents were sh*tter. You can't make a decline case for a player at age 25 (which was his age in WIM07 final).

 

[KINGROGER]

Fed turned back the clock in that WIM15 match. Don't make it look like he was nothing like he used to be yet still smashed an in form Murray.

His level looked better because his opponents were sh*tter. You can't make a decline case for a player at age 25 (which was his age in WIM07 final).

Yes you can, because his level did actually decline.

Nadal's level looked better because Federer declined. 06 was peakdal too but peak Fed WAY too good on both grass and HC.