Immediate steps to save tennis from Pickleball

sureshs

Bionic Poster
A wonderful article by Kevin Theos in RSI magazine February issue identifies the real reason why Pickleball players are welcoming - the games are shorter and everybody rotates. Frustration of playing with a lesser player is minimized.
Second insight is that beginners want to maximize the ratio rally time/ball pickup time, which Pickleball provides.
So two suggestions:
1. All rec play should be rotating and in Fast 4 format.
2. Beginners should play with green balls for more rallying. The red and orange ones just add too much complexity.
Unless you implement these suggestions, Pickleball will take over.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
pBall appeals more for older, less mobile people, so it does fill a need.
Tennis just takes too much time and dedication. I needed a minimum of 6 hours a week just to slowly slip from 4.0 to 3.5 in tennis.
pBall, can maintain 3.5 playing once a month.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Oh, I just switched to lefty pBall after playing rightie for maybe 50 days.
After 4th day, much much better than rightie.
 

silentkman

Hall of Fame
A wonderful article by Kevin Theos in RSI magazine February issue identifies the real reason why Pickleball players are welcoming - the games are shorter and everybody rotates. Frustration of playing with a lesser player is minimized.
Second insight is that beginners want to maximize the ratio rally time/ball pickup time, which Pickleball provides.
So two suggestions:
1. All rec play should be rotating and in Fast 4 format.
2. Beginners should play with green balls for more rallying. The red and orange ones just add too much complexity.
Unless you implement these suggestions, Pickleball will take over.

No and No. Fast 4 is horrible. Believe it or not, some people don't keep score, they just want to hang out and have fun. I honestly don't believe in that premise.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
I like and play PB but I feel it’s on the same curve as windsurfing - just give it time.
Tennis as much as some peeps with money are trying to change it - ain’t going nowhere
You gotta move to SF Area.
In 1983, bought a 85 liter board in Sept after August 31 beginner lesson.
By March '84, was riding 75 liter boards.
Biggest board now is an Isonic 111...too big for 75% of the windy days. Biggest sail is 7.0.
I get around 140 days a year since 1984.
 

stapletonj

Hall of Fame
pickleball is not a sport. period. It is a game. table tennis is just as if not more athletic.
when it takes literally 2 steps to go from behind the baseline to as far forward as you can get, and one step takes you from one sideline to another, athleticism is out the window.
It is a game that builds its' numbers by being appealing to morbidly obese and elderly people (I am in my later 60s), who take one step and dink a wiffleball back and forth for about 5 minutes before sitting down
to take a break.
OK, Rant over.

AS far as fast 4 goes, I hate it for tournament play.

No-Ad is not so bad... When you play no-ad, it is almost guaranteed that a set will last approx 1/2 hour.
a 7 point tiebreaker and an10 point super tie breaker at one set apiece virtually guarantees that a match will be over in 90 minutes

However, in tournaments, when you are using either fast four or no-ad, a round robin format needs to be used whenever possible.
I don't want to pay $100 per year to the USTA and $45 for a tournament where I get to drive 50 miles to the tournament, be given a 5 minute warmup and
get kicked out in the first round because it took me more than 5 games to figure out an opponent
 

eah123

Hall of Fame
In my intra club men’s league we play 8 game pro sets. Matches don’t last longer than 1.5 hours usually. If the matchup isn’t good at least you aren’t wasting a lot of time. And you can play more than one match a day against different opponents. Nobody has quit to play pickleball and in fact everyone is playing more tennis.

Personally I don’t like fast4 because it’s too different from normal scoring.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
A lot of players I know don’t want to play USTA tournaments anymore because they hate the Fast4 format. I am not convinced that more people will play tennis due to Fast4 format.

Tennis is hard to learn while pickleball is easy - there is nothing that can be done to correct this imbalance.

One of my former coaches (30 years old) who played college tennis and used to be ranked about 800 in the world about 7 years ago started playing PB about 3 months ago. He started playing Open PB tournaments almost immediately, made it to the semis of some Open tournament at Las Vegas in December and I heard that he beat a PB player who is ranked #9 (maybe in the US?). Can you imagine someone from another sport at the age of 30 taking up tennis and in 3 months beating a top 10 ATP player or even a top 1000 player?
 
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Xen

Rookie
Did Tennis need saving from Ping Pong or Badminton or Squash or Racquetball or Padel?

 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Did Tennis need saving from Ping Pong or Badminton or Squash or Racquetball or Padel?


In Europe, Padel is becoming like Pickleball in the US and could eventually threaten tennis.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
At least make beginners of all ages play with green ball or below so that they can rally more and pick up less.

That alone will keep more beginners in play.

Of course, it will not help much unless there are club pickup games and beginner socials and lessons which use green ball. It needs to become a formal tradition.
 

Jst21121

Rookie
I feel like the world in general is trending in "pickleballs" direction.

Look at video games. They used to be complex, time consuming, rewarding....and now its turned into...quick...fast...and not as complex.

A good example of deep card game is Magic the Gathering...time consuming, rewarding, complex....and now the big hit is quick fast not as complex- marvel snap/hearthstone.

The same with losing weight. It's not rocket science to lose weight...but people want the quick stuff (eat some random diet, go lift a shakeweight), versus the time consuming gym, running, lifting , working out, keeping to a strict diet.

Look at youtube and tik tok. We used to sit and watch documentaries for an hour, or even a movie for 2 hours. Today its all about 10 second instagram reels and 10 second tik toks.

Our attention span has gone from complex, time consuming, rewarding....to a quick fix of whatever is easiest.

The world is just transitioning to a quicker, fast, and not as complex sort of "life." Tennis is the total opposite of that- it requires a TON of time, practice, and it's a hard sport to master. Whereas pickleball, just pick up a racket have fun and that's that.
 
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TennisOTM

Professional
The "rotating" part is interesting. Imagine for example a team league match where there are three doubles lines. Instead of the current way of playing three long-format matches, you play nine short-format matches, rotating through all the possible matchups. Then depending on the exact format you could play the same amount of tennis or possibly more, but get a variety of matchups, and no longer have to worry about strategizing your lines, "stacking", etc.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The "rotating" part is interesting. Imagine for example a team league match where there are three doubles lines. Instead of the current way of playing three long-format matches, you play nine short-format matches, rotating through all the possible matchups. Then depending on the exact format you could play the same amount of tennis or possibly more, but get a variety of matchups, and no longer have to worry about strategizing your lines, "stacking", etc.

Exactly.

I played rotating pickup Pickleball yesterday. Because 4 or more people were waiting, we played first to 8 instead of 11. I was paired with a weak partner in one game and a strong one in the other. I lost the first but won the second and went off happy.
 

Xen

Rookie
Anything more complex will have a higher barrier to entry. This is why Tennis doesn't have a pick-up game culture: because you can't just go to a tennis court and expect to have fun hitting with a random guy because you're more likely to have a large skill gap for a sport like Tennis, vs say, Basketball.

If you live in a place where Tennis courts are being converted, you probably don't have enough of a young working adult population fit enough to play tennis anyways. In Texas where I live, at most you'll see pickleball lines drawn or tapped down, and Tennis is still far more popular on Tennis courts. Are you in Florida?

I play in a social tennis league and the format is doubles one first-to-10-game set or however far you get in 45 minutes. IMO, The scoring format doesn't matter. It's the venue, environment, and culture around it.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
The funny thing about older male pickleballers is how defensive they get so quickly.
If you say there is a very short learning curve and it is played by mostly older out of shape people...stand back!
The challenge will come back loud and hard. They will challenge you to step on the court and grab a paddle....as they dink you to death in an ultra Alpha manner.
 

Chalkdust

Professional
The world is just transitioning to a quicker, fast, and not as complex sort of "life." Tennis is the total opposite of that- it requires a TON of time, practice, and it's a hard sport to master. Whereas pickleball, just pick up a racket have fun and that's that.
I think you're right, and tennis is complex not just in terms of the game itself... it's also harder to arrange (if we're talking dubs matches) since you need to get four players of roughly equal ability together for 1.5 or two hours.
Whereas PB has a much friendlier pickup culture where you can just go to the courts, and have yourself some fun. You can have fun with people of disparate ability, and games are short, so it lends itself to frequent rotation amongst players. And at least in my experience, people tend to be friendlier and more welcoming to outsiders than tennis players.
I play almost exclusively singles (tennis), partly because it's better exercise and more fun (for me) than dubs, but also because it's so much easier to arrange than dubs.
If I get to the point where I'm no longer able to play singles, I would strongly consider taking up PB rather than or in addition to tennis dubs.
 

Connor35

Professional
Does it matter?

Tennis players will play tennis
I don't think anyone who would have played tennis is going to go straight to pickleball
And if they do, because they like it better, so what? Let them enjoy

If you want a game in any city, you can find a game.
 

stapletonj

Hall of Fame
The funny thing about older male pickleballers is how defensive they get so quickly.
If you say there is a very short learning curve and it is played by mostly older out of shape people...stand back!
The challenge will come back loud and hard. They will challenge you to step on the court and grab a paddle....as they dink you to death in an ultra Alpha manner.
amen to that.

I just remember flipping to the tennis channel and seeing jack sock and john isner picking up to play the world #1 women's doubles pickleball team.
I don't think Isner had ever played pickleball before because Sock had to keep reminding him of the rules, where to stand, etc.
they got creamed the first set/game whatever. Then Isner sort of figured out the game, and he and Sock just smoked them the last 2 games/sets whatever.
The #1 women's team in the world, smoked by 2 guys who were apparently newbies (although tremendous athletes with world class hand eye coord, granted)
Told me all I wanted to know about the game of pickleball
 

mikeler

Moderator
amen to that.

I just remember flipping to the tennis channel and seeing jack sock and john isner picking up to play the world #1 women's doubles pickleball team.
I don't think Isner had ever played pickleball before because Sock had to keep reminding him of the rules, where to stand, etc.
they got creamed the first set/game whatever. Then Isner sort of figured out the game, and he and Sock just smoked them the last 2 games/sets whatever.
The #1 women's team in the world, smoked by 2 guys who were apparently newbies (although tremendous athletes with world class hand eye coord, granted)
Told me all I wanted to know about the game of pickleball

That result didn't surprise me as both are world class doubles players in tennis. Tennis skills definitely translate well. I just started playing pickleball a few months ago so now I play it on my non-tennis days.
 

Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
I feel like the world in general is trending in "pickleballs" direction.

Look at video games. They used to be complex, time consuming, rewarding....and now its turned into...quick...fast...and not as complex.

A good example of deep card game is Magic the Gathering...time consuming, rewarding, complex....and now the big hit is quick fast not as complex- marvel snap/hearthstone.

The same with losing weight. It's not rocket science to lose weight...but people want the quick stuff (eat some random diet, go lift a shakeweight), versus the time consuming gym, running, lifting , working out, keeping to a strict diet.

Look at youtube and tik tok. We used to sit and watch documentaries for an hour, or even a movie for 2 hours. Today its all about 10 second instagram reels and 10 second tik toks.

Our attention span has gone from complex, time consuming, rewarding....to a quick fix of whatever is easiest.

The world is just transitioning to a quicker, fast, and not as complex sort of "life." Tennis is the total opposite of that- it requires a TON of time, practice, and it's a hard sport to master. Whereas pickleball, just pick up a racket have fun and that's that.

I call it the dough boy generation. Why make cookies or cake when you can just fill your belly with dough and batter? No cooking or teeth are required.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
amen to that.

I just remember flipping to the tennis channel and seeing jack sock and john isner picking up to play the world #1 women's doubles pickleball team.
I don't think Isner had ever played pickleball before because Sock had to keep reminding him of the rules, where to stand, etc.
they got creamed the first set/game whatever. Then Isner sort of figured out the game, and he and Sock just smoked them the last 2 games/sets whatever.
The #1 women's team in the world, smoked by 2 guys who were apparently newbies (although tremendous athletes with world class hand eye coord, granted)
Told me all I wanted to know about the game of pickleball

Height of Isner is of more importance in Pickle because distances are less.
 

stapletonj

Hall of Fame
That result didn't surprise me as both are world class doubles players in tennis. Tennis skills definitely translate well. I just started playing pickleball a few months ago so now I play it on my non-tennis days.
What is this "non-tennis days" you speak of? There are NO non-tennis days. tennis is life. As you age, there are occasional recovery days if you are forced to play 100% on hard courts like me.
The purpose of those days is to restring you and your friend's rackets, go to WalMart or Costco to get more balls, shop TW for fresh wristbands on super sale, etc., and to watch tennis videos on youtube.
 

Jst21121

Rookie
What is this "non-tennis days" you speak of? There are NO non-tennis days. tennis is life. As you age, there are occasional recovery days if you are forced to play 100% on hard courts like me.
The purpose of those days is to restring you and your friend's rackets, go to WalMart or Costco to get more balls, shop TW for fresh wristbands on super sale, etc., and to watch tennis videos on youtube.

Non tennis days here means running 6 miles, lifting weights, jumping on the spin bike,… things to get stronger for tennis.

there are no non tennis days in my life.

do I like running 6 miles? Do I like Biking for an hour hard pace? No but I do it cuz I know my singles opponents aren’t doing it. So I’ll win.

lol
 

silentkman

Hall of Fame
Non tennis days here means running 6 miles, lifting weights, jumping on the spin bike,… things to get stronger for tennis.

there are no non tennis days in my life.

do I like running 6 miles? Do I like Biking for an hour hard pace? No but I do it cuz I know my singles opponents aren’t doing it. So I’ll win.

lol

I've always said you get in shape to play tennis, you don't play tennis to get in shape.
 

socalmd123

Professional
i know lots of 12-13 utr players in late 20s/ early 30s taking up pickle ball and playing high level tournaments and making money.
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
Way more athletic and it doesn't have that terrible sound when striking the ball. For me, neither will replace tennis but I would Padel before I ever touched a pickle match.
I tried padel once. It feels more like a slower version of racquetball than tennis (due to the back and rear-side walls being in play).

It is getting really popular where I am. Some tennis courts getting converted and many new padel courts being built. Lots of Europeans like it. Much lower initial learning curve to get a rally going.
 

jonestim

Hall of Fame
pickleball is not a sport. period. It is a game. table tennis is just as if not more athletic.
when it takes literally 2 steps to go from behind the baseline to as far forward as you can get, and one step takes you from one sideline to another, athleticism is out the window.
It is a game that builds its' numbers by being appealing to morbidly obese and elderly people (I am in my later 60s), who take one step and dink a wiffleball back and forth for about 5 minutes before sitting down
to take a break.

4.0 pickleball doubles is a better workout than 4.0 tennis doubles.
 

stapletonj

Hall of Fame
as a 6'6" guy, I can confidently say that the only thing harder in pickleball is the backache from being hunched over to dink the ball the entire time
 

jonestim

Hall of Fame
you forgot the /s/

I didn't.

I sweat more in pickleball than doubles tennis, and movement/speed is my strong suit in tennis. I noticed it when the overgrips I have used for years in tennis couldn't keep up in pickleball. I also wear my shoes out faster in pickleball.

It's a better workout. There is less down time between points and the points are longer.

Tennis doubles has an average point last less than 4 shots. Points just aren't that long, and then you need to chase down the ball way over there. Depending on the server's first serve percentage, you have downtime while someone moves the first ball that was out and gets ready again. Tennis doubles just isn't that good a workout.
 

Quad Fault

New User
Historically, I would have unironically said "whatever": Let the PB players do nothing but stand there (nevertheless/somehow sweating through their hamburger grease-stained shirts) while playing their "sport" before heading off to the local Applebee's or Margaritaville or whatever it is that the type of boomers who like to pretend they're still athletic (if they ever were) are in to. You guys did great! So you're saying the unbeatable champions of our area are a 280 pound 56 year old and his wife? Cool. Now go crank up that Eagles album and go DINK you crazy cat!

As for me, I'll be running holes into my shoes, going full tilt 2-3 hours straight, maintaining my abs, swinging out and painting the lines.

I was 100% wrong. Pickleball isn't appreciably older here, and has a lot more young participation. And in the higher club levels PB people are at least as in shape as most club tennis players.

My golf club just converted 3 tennis courts to PB. This is in addition to the 4 stand alone PB courts they installed in 2020. We were only saved from 4 conversions at the last second (which would have left us with only 4 remaining tennis courts - not enough for USTA). I don't have a leg to stand on to complain. The PB courts are always packed. Tennis is always empty. The 7-14 year old kids take tennis lessons in the summer and on weekends, and then when the clinics are over I watch half of them go play PB on their own and the tennis courts are empty again. I never see kids out there just playing tennis. Only people ever out there outside of clinics and teams are ladies who lunch (all 50+), and they're out there briefly. The PB courts have a lot of the 30- and 40-something crowds. It's social. It's fast. It's packed in the evenings and on weekends. If you're decent it is still a workout.

My indoor tennis club (a serious tennis club with a number of great players and D-1 bound juniors) just put down PB lines on some courts too. Still have no idea what that's about. It's extremely tough to get court times in the winter, so I don't think it will make them much extra money. I think people were just loudly demanding it.

My nephew tells me the Pickleball club in the public high school is extremely popular (80 members). The public high school also put down pickelball lines for 10+ courts (thankfully on a parking lot, not on the tennis courts).

We've already lost.
 

derick232

Rookie
I think you're right, and tennis is complex not just in terms of the game itself... it's also harder to arrange (if we're talking dubs matches) since you need to get four players of roughly equal ability together for 1.5 or two hours.
Whereas PB has a much friendlier pickup culture where you can just go to the courts, and have yourself some fun. You can have fun with people of disparate ability, and games are short, so it lends itself to frequent rotation amongst players. And at least in my experience, people tend to be friendlier and more welcoming to outsiders than tennis players.
I play almost exclusively singles (tennis), partly because it's better exercise and more fun (for me) than dubs, but also because it's so much easier to arrange than dubs.
If I get to the point where I'm no longer able to play singles, I would strongly consider taking up PB rather than or in addition to tennis dubs.

If you get to the point where you can't play tennis and start playing pickleball, singles PB is a lot more fun in my opinion than doubles. Much like tennis in some ways and still a good workout because of the fast pace. I think I'd rather play singles PB than doubles tennis in most cases. Hard part is finding someone to play with, similar to singles tennis. And unless they have a tennis background it's usually a slaughter.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
If you get to the point where you can't play tennis and start playing pickleball, singles PB is a lot more fun in my opinion than doubles. Much like tennis in some ways and still a good workout because of the fast pace. I think I'd rather play singles PB than doubles tennis in most cases. Hard part is finding someone to play with, similar to singles tennis. And unless they have a tennis background it's usually a slaughter.

Also the rec centers will require you to play doubles as people will be waiting. And people are always waiting. It is not like tennis.
 

Purestriker

Legend
I tried padel once. It feels more like a slower version of racquetball than tennis (due to the back and rear-side walls being in play).

It is getting really popular where I am. Some tennis courts getting converted and many new padel courts being built. Lots of Europeans like it. Much lower initial learning curve to get a rally going.
That makes sense to me and I thought it closely resembled racquetball.
 
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