Impact of laid back wrist on serve

[atp2015]

Just a thought and a little experiment on laid back wrist on serve. It didn't make sense to me how laid back wrist on serve made so much difference to the serve in terms more pop and spin. The laid back wrist adds just 5 inches (distance between neutral wrist and fully extended wrist as in palm down fingers pointing up).
But it has been a mystery how it made so much difference to the quality of the serve.

(This is not a discussion on whether the laid back wrist makes any difference, but how)

I did a little experiment to measure the distance the racket travels from drop position to contact by tracing along a wall.
With neutral wrist, the distance is 55 inches and with laid back wrist it's whopping 80 inches! A tiny 5 inch wrist extension results in additional 20 inches at the bottom of the racket head!
Probably you won't believe it, but measure it yourself.
Additional 2 feet adds a lot of RHS and you get better pop and can add a lot of spin. I think it's safe to conclude how it also makes the ground strokes a lot better - it helps to add a lot of RHS, just the tiny bit of wrist extension.
Sounds strange?

On top of that, the wrist coming back to neutral from extension adds more speed again with that tiny distance wrist moves.

And it also answers why the wrist has to be laid back on ground strokes for better consistency. Imagine how much havoc even two inch wrist movement can cause. The racket head moves 5 times more than the wrist movement and it becomes extremely difficult to control the ball with loose wrist.

 

[Sirius Black]

Open tennis serve

 

[atp2015]

Open tennis serve

Is it being discussed there?

 

[Curious]

Interesting. Could you make it clearer? Laid back meaning extended? And when during the serve, beginning/trophy pose/ throwing stage? Or an example from pros serving that way.

 

[atp2015]

Interesting. Could you make it clearer? Laid back meaning extended? And when during the serve, beginning/trophy pose/ throwing stage? Or an example from pros serving that way.

Laid back = fully extended <> flexed

See at 0:19 here, the wrist looks 90 degrees to the forearm.

 

[Curious]

Thanks. That's not really extension but radial flexion you are talking about. But I understand what you mean now.

 

[Curious]

 

[atp2015]

Thanks. That's not really extension but radial flexion you are talking about. But I understand what you mean now.

I think it's both, some amount of radial deviation and full extension.

 

[Curious]

I think it's both, some amount of radial deviation and full extension.

True.
To me, it looks more like some amount of extension and full radial flexion.

 

[atp2015]

True.
To me, it looks more like some amount of extension and full radial flexion.

The video explains what should happen using Fed and Murray's serve. Anyway my original point was on how wrist extension helps and not if it really is used or helps in advanced serve.
A separate thread is needed to discuss that.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I think it's both, some amount of radial deviation and full extension.

No, not full extension. As @Curious indicates, it's radial deviation with some amount of extension. Full extension is not the way to achieve a high level serve. You are more likely to see full extension with an inferior serve that incorporates a WTE (waiter's tray error).

The wrist action employed does help but I would not characterize it as a "wrist snap" as Clay Ballard does. The pronation of the forearm and the rotation of the shoulder are larger actions than the moderate wrist action. You might call it a "racket head snap" or a "forearm roll" but calling it a "wrist snap" can be very misleading.

 

[atp2015]

No, not full extension. As @Curious indicates, it's radial deviation with some amount of extension. Full extension is not the way to achieve a high level serve. You are more likely to see full extension with an inferior serve that incorporates a WTE (waiter's tray error).

The wrist action employed does help but I would not characterize it as a "wrist snap" as Clay Ballard does. The pronation of the forearm and the rotation of the shoulder are larger actions than the moderate wrist action. You might call it a "racket head snap" or a "forearm roll" but calling it a "wrist snap" can be very misleading.

The second video with Federer and Murray also shows full extension and close to 90 degrees between fingers and the forearm.
Is it possible to have 90 degree just with radial deviation? I'm able to move it by 2 inches with deviation and achieve 25 degrees, but with extension almost 80 degrees. While i see that WTE is possible if the arm is not rotated or with a wrong grip, it does increase racket drop considerably (by almost 40 percent) in my measurement.

 

[Curious]

The second video with Federer and Murray also shows full extension and close to 90 degrees between fingers and the forearm.
Is it possible to have 90 degree just with radial deviation? I'm able to move it by 2 inches with deviation and achieve 25 degrees, but with extension almost 80 degrees. While i see that WTE is possible if the arm is not rotated or with a wrong grip, it does increase racket drop considerably (by almost 40 percent) in my measurement.

The problem with wrist extension is that it causes racket face to open up to the sky, rather than edge-on movement of the racket for better racket head speed. By the way you can have a lot of racket drop by holding the handle close to the butt cap with a very loose grip without the wrist extension.

I think this is a great example of how racket should be travelling, edge-on that is. Can you spot any wrist extension in his movement?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The second video with Federer and Murray also shows full extension and close to 90 degrees between fingers and the forearm.
Is it possible to have 90 degree just with radial deviation? I'm able to move it by 2 inches with deviation and achieve 25 degrees, but with extension almost 80 degrees. While i see that WTE is possible if the arm is not rotated or with a wrong grip, it does increase racket drop considerably (by almost 40 percent) in my measurement.

It's an illusion. Difficult to get much more than 70 degrees with full extension. Take a closer look. You might be see an apparent angle close to 90 degrees between the forearm and the back of the hand on the thumb/index finger side of the hand. But if you take a close look at the pinkie finger side of the hand, you will not see the wrist at full extension at all. The angle between the forearm and the back of the hand on that side is quite different.

 

[atp2015]

The problem with wrist extension is that it causes racket face to open up to the sky, rather than edge-on movement of the racket for better racket head speed.

I agree it causes the faces to open up if the racket drop is conventional "scratch your back" and the drop is not outside the right edge of the body. If the racket drop is at the right edge of the body, the head comes up just fine on edge.

 

[LeeD]

All that good stuff happens with a service LOOP swing. That includes layback AND extension. That's why anyone good at tennis uses a LOOP swing.

 

[Digital Atheist]

All that good stuff happens with a service LOOP swing. That includes layback AND extension. That's why anyone good at tennis uses a LOOP swing.

Another gem from LeeD! Think of all those big servers on the ATP that are no good at tennis because they don't use a loop, and even excluding the pure abbreviated motions, there are plenty - Groth, Kyrgios, Raonic, Querrey, Tsonga, Isner, Berdych, Monfils, Pouille et al.

 

[LeeD]

Talking SERVE, not groundies or volleys.

 

[LeeD]

In case you didn't know, every server who is good uses a loop swing.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Well @LeeD maybe I'm just going crazy or even worse, I'm actually mistaken!

Think of all those big servers on the ATP that are no good at tennis because they don't use a loop, and even excluding the pure abbreviated motions, there are plenty

Talking SERVE, not groundies or volleys.

I was indeed talking about the serve. Obviously I must learn to be clearer.

In case you didn't know, every server who is good uses a loop swing.

No actually I didn't! All those players I listed above do not use a full loop serve in the traditional sense, at least not as classified on tennisplayer.net by some authors. Del Potro uses a full loop, Janowicz uses a full loop, Serena uses a semi-loop, Philippoussis was a great example of a full loop serve. Maybe we just have a different definition of what defines a loop serve (?) or maybe you are talking about some kind of loop during the racquet drop whereas I'm talking takeback, hence the confusion. If so, it is my mistake. Feel free to explain what you mean when you use the term 'loop'. Thanks.

P.S. Megadeth did say "if I know I'm going crazy then I must not be insane", so perhaps it isn't all bad news for me.

EDIT: It appears we were indeed using the term to describe different parts of the serve. Sorry about that.

 

[BlueB]

Wow, again this kind of thread?
It's amazing how many accounts some TTrols have...

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[Bobs tennis]

All that good stuff happens with a service LOOP swing. That includes layback AND extension. That's why anyone good at tennis uses a LOOP swing.

I DO really like the word "LOOP" rather then drop.I caught that in another Leed posting and thinking of it that way does seem to help

 

[Digital Atheist]

^^ Ah so that's why I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying. There are a couple of articles on tennisplayer.net that mention the full loop and semi loop, and they are in reference to the style of takeback (see the servers I mentioned above for examples). They probably aren't officially recognised tennis terms and that's where I got my wires crossed.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

In case you didn't know, every server who is good uses a loop swing.

I DO really like the word "LOOP" rather then drop.I caught that in another Leed posting and thinking of it that way does seem to help

Are we talking about different things here? I take the loop (or the windup) to be the stuff that happens primarily prior to the trophy position whereas the racket drop it the stuff that happens after the trophy and prior to the upward swing to make contact.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^^ Ah so that's why I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying. There are a couple of articles on tennisplayer.net that mention the full loop and semi loop, and they are in reference to the style of takeback (see the servers I mentioned above for examples). They probably aren't officially recognised tennis terms and that's where I got my wires crossed.

How does this compare to Doug Eng's 3 Service Rhythms on the TennisPlayer.net site? Classic (down together - up together), Abbreviated, and Staggered.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/the_three_service_rhythms/index.html

 

[Bobs tennis]

Are we talking about different things here? I take the loop (or the windup) to be the stuff that happens primarily prior to the trophy position whereas the racket drop it the stuff that happens after the trophy and prior to the upward swing to make contact.

Hmmm I might be wrong but I thought just the opposite,meaning after trophy pose

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Hmmm I might be wrong but I thought just the opposite,meaning after trophy pose

Good to know. Does seem that "loop" does not bring to mind the same thing for all. We can consider 2 different things when talking about loops on the serve. There is the windup or preparation loop (not present for the abbreviated prep) and the racket drop loop (behind the back). The upward swing after the racket head drop can be considered part of this 2nd loop. We should probably qualify which loop we are referring to when talking about the serve.

 

[atp2015]

Another gem from LeeD!

Wrong Thread? I don't see any post from leed here...

 

[atp2015]

Wow, again this kind of thread?
It's amazing how many accounts some TTrols have...

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I think it's you who post crap most of the time. Your like percentage is below 30 pct. Do you know why?

 

[Sirius Black]

I think it's you who post crap most of the time. Your like percentage is below 30 pct. Do you know why?

He's referring to the infamous open360 thread

 

[BlueB]

I think it's you who post crap most of the time. Your like percentage is below 30 pct. Do you know why?

What is PCT? Politically Correct Tennis?

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[atp2015]

What is PCT? Politically Correct Tennis?

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I like the term politically correct tennis - no body serves, not hitting at the net man, no drop shots, no lobs, no overhead at the feet..

 

[Digital Atheist]

Are we talking about different things here? I take the loop (or the windup) to be the stuff that happens primarily prior to the trophy position whereas the racket drop it the stuff that happens after the trophy and prior to the upward swing to make contact.

Yeah it seems like this is a case of usage (with the presupposition that @LeeD is in fact using it to describe the action from trophy to contact). I've always held the "loop serve" to mean the same as you [1], based on what little I've read about it. When LeeD made the claim that all good servers use a loop, after some reflection, it occurred to me he was most likely referring to something entirely different and @Bobs tennis partially confirmed that suspicion. Awaiting clarification from @LeeD just to be sure.

Wrong Thread? I don't see any post from leed here...

I guess you missed it [2] - see immediately above my gem of a post!

How does this compare to Doug Eng's 3 Service Rhythms on the TennisPlayer.net site? Classic (down together - up together), Abbreviated, and Staggered.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/the_three_service_rhythms/index.html

The articles I mentioned were involving an analysis of a D1 college serve compared to that of several professionals and covered a lot of material (including stance, backswing, and the two different ways in which the racquet drop can be achieved from trophy; that last part was interesting and enlightening). The D1 player had what they called a full loop and resembled Philippoussis (that's where I also heard the term semi-loop, which is how they classified Serena Williams).

youtube.com/watch?v=uikaFCT9sno

Deceptively simple imo, even though it goes against the out to in swingline that seems predominant on the tour these days.

youtube.com/watch?v=WuIgTyh4aDs

I don't recall rhythm being mentioned, but it seems full loop takebacks will almost always be classic, as far as both arms moving together (but not necessarily down together up together) to avoid an exceptionally high ball toss.

[1] https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...aid-back-wrist-on-serve.595485/#post-11459328
[2] https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...aid-back-wrist-on-serve.595485/#post-11457989

 

[Digital Atheist]

He's referring to the infamous open360 thread

Ut oh, you appear to have awoken the sleeping beast and that thread has been resurrected, all be it only temporarily with any luck!

 

[Topspin Shot]

I think it's you who post crap most of the time. Your like percentage is below 30 pct. Do you know why?

Because he's been on here before likes became a feature.

 

[Digital Atheist]

^^ Damn I wish I had that excuse.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Likes are a function of quantity over quality. Much like democracy. Nothing to do with being right or wrong.

 

[atp2015]

Likes are a function of quantity over quality. Much like democracy. Nothing to do with being right or wrong.

Where's the unlike button?

Percentage is different from total, no?
Percentage avoids the quantity issue, yes?