Importance of Second Serve

[marc45]

the final atp stats are out and since i've gotten no response on my thread there (i thought there were some numbers geeks here) i thought i'd personalize it.....the top three in percentage of points won on second serve are the top three ranked players, in that order.... rafa,fed, joker....that was the only category that hewed that close to the rankings in the serve or return stats...so does that mean this is the key category to look at in assessing the best players?...it's interesting because none really "go" for their second serves...fed can and does pop it occassionally, rafa uses that tight spin, and novak kind of kicks it, no..though it seems like he can get shaky....so is it more their mental attitude than the serve itself?....btw, murray was 31 in this category, so maybe it was just a fluke this year

 

[marc45]

or maybe andy really needs to work on that second serve if he's going to bag his first major in '09

 

[iamke55]

Murray is known to have a much weaker second serve than the top three, relying mainly on his first serve.

 

[MajinX]

could be a coincidence, who is number 4 5 and 6? if they dont match or come even close to matching the top 10 then it probably isnt a good idea to assess the top players with.

 

[RCizzle65]

http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/matchfacts/

 

[marc45]

thanks rc, yeah i guess so majin...roddick is 4 but andreev and matheiu 5 and six...kind of strange, but that was the only category that matched the top

 

[marc45]

roddick and karlovic are so poor in returning stats...the difference between their serving and returning numbers are stark...i'm sure everybody knows that or feels it, but to see the numbers is jarring...to them i would assume as well

 

[marc45]

karlovic's tiebreak record this year 30-31, can't find andy's this year, but it seems to be going downhill over time...obviously, so hard to win a big tourney when you're trying to work your way through a tough draw and having to win so many breakers

 

[Clay lover]

I think it depends on their baseline ability more than anything, and In terms of overall baselining performance this year, they are in that order. With the exception of Roddick, who is up there because he has a powerful serve, of course.

 

[DoubleDeuce]

Interesting thread marc.
The fluke you mentioned was also interesting. Murray practiced on his serves more than anything else this year and he did improve his first serves accuracy. Probably looking at his second half of the year second serve would have given a better percentage.

Here it is:

Second serve points won % - Match

1. Nadal, Rafael 60 90
2. Federer, Roger 58 80
3. Djokovic, Novak 57 79
4. Roddick, Andy 56 62
5. Andreev, Igor 55 72
6. Mathieu, Paul-Henri 55 58
7T. Gonzalez, Fernando 55 51
7T. Moya, Carlos 55 51
9T. Almagro, Nicolas 55 50
9T. Kohlschreiber, Philipp 55 50
11. Simon, Gilles 54 78
12. Davydenko, Nikolay 54 72
13. Soderling, Robin 54 64
14. Bolelli, Simone 54 57
15. Wawrinka, Stanislas 54 55
16. Melzer, Jurgen 54 53
17. Blake, James 53 68
18. Ferrer, David 53 64
19. Cilic, Marin 53 61
20. Del Potro, Juan Martin 53 59
21T. Berdych, Tomas 53 54
21T. Karlovic, Ivo 53 54
23. Gasquet, Richard 53 52
24. Lopez, Feliciano 53 50
25. Ancic, Mario 53 45
26. Verdasco, Fernando 52 72
27. Tursunov, Dmitry 52 55
28T. Nalbandian, David 52 54
28T. Stepanek, Radek 52 54
30. Tipsarevic, Janko 52 46
31. Murray, Andy 51 72
32. Robredo, Tommy 51 58
33. Fish, Mardy 51 55
34. Youzhny, Mikhail 51 49
35T. Monaco, Juan 51 47
35T. Montanes, Albert 51 47
35T. Tsonga, Jo-Wilfried 51 47
38. Safin, Marat 51 46
39. Ginepri, Robby 51 45
40. Serra, Florent 51 44
41. Seppi, Andreas 50 56
42. Nieminen, Jarkko 50 51
43. Querrey, Sam 49 52
44. Gicquel, Marc 49 45
45. Acasuso, Jose

 

[marc45]

I think it depends on their baseline ability more than anything, and In terms of overall baselining performance this year, they are in that order. With the exception of Roddick, who is up there because he has a powerful serve, of course.

yeah, it certainly does indicate how baseline play has become the bedrock of the game...how you back up a solid, if not spectacular second serve is more important than winning the point off a bomb or volley

 

[marc45]

Interesting thread marc.
The fluke you mentioned was also interesting. Murray practiced on his serves more than anything else this year and he did improve his first serves accuracy. Probably looking at his second half of the year second serve would have given a better percentage.


good point dd, i'd have to believe murray improved...it is a fluid situation...the calendar year is just that while the 52 week ranking obviously has murray gaining

 

[marc45]

btw, how many would have guessed that verdasco is a clear number one in first serve percentage...really interesting when you consider rafa is 2...if only verdasco could be as consistent with his groundstrokes...maybe he should go for more on his first serve and sacrifice percentage for more free points....roddick is third in this category...man, this has to be frustrating for him, such a high percentage with such a big serve, but not the really big results anymore

 

[marc45]

i wonder if the players really sit down with these numbers and their coaches and discuss it...i would think combined with video evidence it would be a good learning tool, but maybe they just kind of know...i mean i assume nobody has to tell ivo or andy they need to improve their return games....as well, i suppose numbers meaning ends at some point and then you get into intangibles, but we do have to keep score, right?

 

[DoubleDeuce]

btw, how many would have guessed that verdasco is a clear number one in first serve percentage...really interesting when you consider rafa is 2...if only verdasco could be as consistent with his groundstrokes...maybe he should go for more on his first serve and sacrifice percentage for more free points....roddick is third in this category...man, this has to be frustrating for him, such a high percentage with such a big serve, but not the really big results anymore

I believe high first serve % is indicative of a less risky and hence less rewarding first serve. The evident of this is that Verdasco and Nadal both have very poor Ace ratings ,44 and 39. Therefore, high first serve % by itself may not be a plus and If you add more data it could be an indicative of a missing weapon.

 

[marc45]

nadal is 27th in first serve points won and verdasco 39th...maybe they could both afford to go for it more...in particular the world number one..if he's number one in second serve points won, why not roll the dice a bit more on the first...i'll tell you something that i'd like to see nadal do on serve and that is to stand a bit further from the center service line... i think that would give him a better angle to hit the wide serve in the deuce court and even more angle for the lefty slider in the ad...i think he's covering that forehand corner, but i think he's fast enough to give a little ground there at the start of a service point for a chance to improve his points won off of first serve numbers, but what do i know...rafa and toni seem to know what they're doing

 

[DoubleDeuce]

i wonder if the players really sit down with these numbers and their coaches and discuss it...i would think combined with video evidence it would be a good learning tool, but maybe they just kind of know...i mean i assume nobody has to tell ivo or andy they need to improve their return games....as well, i suppose numbers meaning ends at some point and then you get into intangibles, but we do have to keep score, right?

I have no doubt that they do. 5 people following Murray wherever he goes are there to do just that, especially the guy they call "the professor" for his scientific approach. I bet they have other statistics of their own interest.

 

[marc45]

yeah, i've been hearing alot about the team murray has put together...he's kind of like the obama of scotland (laughs) or miami beach i hear...i didn't know about "the professor", sounds interesting...i have seen kim sears and she seems like a good "mary ann"
(wink)

 

[DoubleDeuce]

lol yeah, one of the reasons he looks at his box whenever he wins a point...

The professor is the canadian Louis Cayer. He provides analysis on technical and tactical issues.
Murray is an old fox at 22. He has gathered a great team, practices hard and is motivated but I dont see a grand slam in him. Maybe one or two if he gets lucky. H lacks the physical requirements. one tough 5 set match in a major and he's no chance, imo.

 

[strahan918]

Verdasco and Nadal have high first serve percentages because they utilize more spin, especially slice, on their first serves than most people, who usually hit a flatter serve.

 

[Cenc]

actually second serve is the most important shot in tennis

 

[Underhand]

actually second serve is the most important shot in tennis

You're right, son.