Important and only tip for tennis players playing Pickleball

S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Learn how to hit a soft shot into the kitchen from back in the court. It is more difficult than a tennis drop shot because your opponents will already be near the kitchen.

That is really the only new shot you have to learn.
 
Bud said:
Dinks and rolls are also shots used in pickleball that aren't used in tennis.
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Those are extensions of half-volleys. Comes naturally with a little practice. The drop shot from the back court is the only new thing which is very counter-intuitive. The opponents are right at the kitchen, and if the ball sails a little longer, it is toast. If it bounces a little higher, it is toast. There is a very small window of safety. Not only that, it must be always followed up with a move to the kitchen, unlike tennis.
 
sureshs said:
Those are extensions of half-volleys. Comes naturally with a little practice. The drop shot from the back court is the only new thing which is very counter-intuitive. The opponents are right at the kitchen, and if the ball sails a little longer, it is toast. If it bounces a little higher, it is toast. There is a very small window of safety. Not only that, it must be always followed up with a move to the kitchen, unlike tennis.
Click to expand...
No, they aren't extensions of half-volleys.

The roll volley is closest to a swinging volleys with a different intent than tennis. It's more of a table tennis shot using topspin and a wrist snap from just beyond the kitchen line.

The dink is a drop shot into the kitchen or slightly beyond. Don't half-volley a dink if you can avoid it. Pivot back a step and hit as a drop shot.
 
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Bud said:
Dinks and rolls are also shots used in pickleball that aren't used in tennis.
Click to expand...
And don't forget the drop serve.:rolleyes:
Advanced rec players aren't using the 3rd shot drop as much anymore. They're driving hard and low down the middle and then using a 5th shot drop.
Chasing a lob and then dropping it back in the kitchen is one of the hardest shots to learn and it doesn't really work if you're too slow to get back up to the line. In that case, I've had luck with a high topspin lob deep to the baseline. The half volley does come into play quite often as it can nullify drives or smashes with a little practice like already mentioned.
Rolls are the hardest for me, I like slicing much better.
 
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Bud said:
No, they aren't extensions of half-volleys.

The roll volley is closest to a swinging volleys with a different intent than tennis. It's more of a table tennis shot using topspin and a wrist snap from just beyond the kitchen line.

The dink is a drop shot into the kitchen or slightly beyond. Don't half-volley a dink if you can avoid it. Pivot back a step and hit as a drop shot.
Click to expand...
All teaching pros advice not stepping back in Pickleball
 
Purestriker said:
There are teaching pro's in pickleball? Seems like a waste of money when they have your sage advice and coaching.
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They are cropping up everywhere. Pickleball is mainly doubles so beginners cannot easily get into the game. That is where the pros come in. As in tennis, the YouTube videos are already making them obsolete for higher players
 
sureshs said:
They are cropping up everywhere. Pickleball is mainly doubles so beginners cannot easily get into the game. That is where the pros come in. As in tennis, the YouTube videos are already making them obsolete for higher players
Click to expand...
any 4.5 tennis player could be a pickleball pro in a month or less, fact.
 
sureshs said:
Learn how to hit a soft shot into the kitchen from back in the court. It is more difficult than a tennis drop shot because your opponents will already be near the kitchen.

That is really the only new shot you have to learn.
Click to expand...

3rd shot drop … or drive and 5th shot drop with opponents at kitchen definitely a skill that has to be developed. Does indeed seem weird to tennis players dropping with opponents at net/kitchen.

But my list is longer for tennis players. For one thing … the soft/drop into kitchen skills come into play all over the court. When you are on defensive from opponents, transition zone/no mans zone or even at kitchen, sometimes your best play is to neutralize point back to kitchen dink game. Resets … in different flavors … sometimes absorb a smash and take the pace off and drop back in the kitchen. Sometimes take a smash right off the ground a reset back into kitchen (very difficult… lots of reps … hard to keep low enough). The entire reset concept back to neutral … and soft game skills mattering so much will be weird for tennis players. Put it this way … a tennis player will hit a drop shot as an addition to groundstrokes … a doubles pickleball player will hit a drive as an addition to soft game.

I would still put a different doubles pickleball skill at the top that will be most foreign to higher level tennis players … and that is the backhand volley at the kitchen. Probably shouldn’t call it volleys in pickleball … because everything is a hit/punch … most of the time with no body rotation. For me … that has been the bigger muscle memory purge. That nice 1hbh tennis volley you had … you know the one with shoulder turn and nice punch with backspin against a fast tennis ball … forget it. Sometimes there is enough time to make it look similar but with a lot more arming/hitting … but it won’t be your standard bh volley in pickleball. Man … just hit me … miss that 1hbh tennis volley. :cry:

edit: add this bit of painful info for tennis players … bounce a lob in pickleball and say goodbye to overhead. :eek: :mad:
 
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ByeByePoly said:
3rd shot drop … or drive and 5th shot drop with opponents at kitchen definitely a skill that has to be developed. Does indeed seem weird to tennis players dropping with opponents at net/kitchen.

But my list is longer for tennis players. For one thing … the soft/drop into kitchen skills come into play all over the court. When you are on defensive from opponents, transition zone/no mans zone or even at kitchen, sometimes your best play is to neutralize point back to kitchen dink game. Resets … in different flavors … sometimes absorb a smash and take the pace off and drop back in the kitchen. Sometimes take a smash right off the ground a reset back into kitchen (very difficult… lots of reps … hard to keep low enough). The entire reset concept back to neutral … and soft game skills mattering so much will be weird for tennis players. Put it this way … a tennis player will hit a drop shot as an addition to groundstrokes … a doubles pickleball player will hit a drive as an addition to soft game.

I would still put a different doubles pickleball skill at the top that will be most foreign to higher level tennis players … and that is the backhand volley at the kitchen. Probably shouldn’t call it volleys in pickleball … because everything is a hit/punch … most of the time with no body rotation. For me … that has been the bigger muscle memory purge. That nice 1hbh tennis volley you had … you know the one with shoulder turn and nice punch with backspin against a fast tennis ball … forget it. Sometimes there is enough time to make it look similar but with a lot more arming/hitting … but it won’t be your standard bh volley in pickleball. Man … just hit me … miss that 1hbh tennis volley. :cry:

edit: add this bit of painful info for tennis players … bounce a lob in pickleball and say goodbye to overhead. :eek: :mad:
Click to expand...
I have a bad open stance tennis volley so no adaptation needed for Pickleball
 
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sureshs said:
I have a bad open stance tennis volley so adaptation needed for Pickleball
Click to expand...

Lots of adaptation going on for all of us.

One thing I have noticed with kitchen 2hbh volleyers is the mechanics of the 2hbh allow enough time to sneak in a little shoulder turn even on fast exchanges and left hand coming around with a little body rotation assist. With 1hbh pball volley for the most part stuck with torso square to net and ping pong arming punch volley. My 1hbh punch volley has come a long way … no choice or get killed at kitchen. I keep intending to experiment with 2hbh volley but always forget once in games.
 
sureshs said:
They are cropping up everywhere. Pickleball is mainly doubles so beginners cannot easily get into the game. That is where the pros come in. As in tennis, the YouTube videos are already making them obsolete for higher players
Click to expand...
You should have your own PB videos too.
 
ByeByePoly said:
Lots of adaptation going on for all of us.

One thing I have noticed with kitchen 2hbh volleyers is the mechanics of the 2hbh allow enough time to sneak in a little shoulder turn even on fast exchanges and left hand coming around with a little body rotation assist. With 1hbh pball volley for the most part stuck with torso square to net and ping pong arming punch volley. My 1hbh punch volley has come a long way … no choice or get killed at kitchen. I keep intending to experiment with 2hbh volley but always forget once in games.
Click to expand...
Why not use a roll volleys at the kitchen? Two shot winner. Roll with heavy TS at the opponent's knees to feet. Prepare to put away the pop up.
 
ByeByePoly said:
3rd shot drop … or drive and 5th shot drop with opponents at kitchen definitely a skill that has to be developed. Does indeed seem weird to tennis players dropping with opponents at net/kitchen.

But my list is longer for tennis players. For one thing … the soft/drop into kitchen skills come into play all over the court. When you are on defensive from opponents, transition zone/no mans zone or even at kitchen, sometimes your best play is to neutralize point back to kitchen dink game. Resets … in different flavors … sometimes absorb a smash and take the pace off and drop back in the kitchen. Sometimes take a smash right off the ground a reset back into kitchen (very difficult… lots of reps … hard to keep low enough). The entire reset concept back to neutral … and soft game skills mattering so much will be weird for tennis players. Put it this way … a tennis player will hit a drop shot as an addition to groundstrokes … a doubles pickleball player will hit a drive as an addition to soft game.

I would still put a different doubles pickleball skill at the top that will be most foreign to higher level tennis players … and that is the backhand volley at the kitchen. Probably shouldn’t call it volleys in pickleball … because everything is a hit/punch … most of the time with no body rotation. For me … that has been the bigger muscle memory purge. That nice 1hbh tennis volley you had … you know the one with shoulder turn and nice punch with backspin against a fast tennis ball … forget it. Sometimes there is enough time to make it look similar but with a lot more arming/hitting … but it won’t be your standard bh volley in pickleball. Man … just hit me … miss that 1hbh tennis volley. :cry:

edit: add this bit of painful info for tennis players … bounce a lob in pickleball and say goodbye to overhead. :eek: :mad:
Click to expand...
The more experience I gain along with watching other high level players' patterns, I see the third shot drop becoming obsolete. It's a very difficult shot to execute well against advanced players. On anything but a perfect 3rd shot drop, good opponents hit a TS roll volley at your feet. On a crappy 3rd shot drop, it's a simple put away volley/smash for the opponent.

My go to pattern is a 3rd shot drive down the middle or directly at the weaker player, keeping the ball fast and spinny with low net clearance of 6" or less. That usually creates a defensive block. The follow up shot is either a wide 5th shot kitchen drop if the block is short and low, a swinging drive volley against a flat mid height block or another groundstroke drive if the ball is popped up.

These are the patterns I'd suggest for tennis players switching to PB. It's a more natural combo.
 
Bud said:
Why not use a roll volleys at the kitchen? Two shot winner. Roll with heavy TS at the opponent's knees to feet. Prepare to put away the pop up.
Click to expand...

This was about when you are already at the kitchen in a volley firefight. With 1hbh typical ping pong punch arming stroke, generally no time to add shoulder turn. Also … anyone who has hit a 1hbh in tennis is aware just how exact/particular shoulder turn assistance has to be. The mechanics of the 2hbh allow time for left/off hand acceleration with some shoulder turn. At least that is what it looks like to me.
 
Bud said:
The more experience I gain along with watching other high level players' patterns, I see the third shot drop becoming obsolete. It's a very difficult shot to execute well against advanced players. On anything but a perfect 3rd shot drop, good opponents hit a TS roll volley at your feet. On a crappy 3rd shot drop, it's a simple put away volley/smash for the opponent.

My go to pattern is a 3rd shot drive down the middle or directly at the weaker player, keeping the ball fast and spinny with low net clearance of 6" or less. That usually creates a defensive block. The follow up shot is either a wide 5th shot kitchen drop if the block is short and low, a swinging drive volley against a flat mid height block or another groundstroke drive if the ball is popped up.

These are the patterns I'd suggest for tennis players switching to PB. It's a more natural combo.
Click to expand...

Well … 3rd shot drop is definitely not shelved by the Johns brothers. But it’s another question what is best percentage for rec player … depending on skill/level and opponents. I prefer the 3rd shot drive … then best next shot available… but put myself in one month 3rd shot drop detention with softer Prism Flash. I think I made progress … but fyi … this morning in open play I am pulling V7 (thermoformed) back out for comparison. If it works out … will also hit wife’s Flash (thermoformed). The best day I ever had was playing with her paddle … but maybe just a good day and not the paddle.
 
Bud said:
The more experience I gain along with watching other high level players' patterns, I see the third shot drop becoming obsolete. It's a very difficult shot to execute well against advanced players. On anything but a perfect 3rd shot drop, good opponents hit a TS roll volley at your feet. On a crappy 3rd shot drop, it's a simple put away volley/smash for the opponent.

My go to pattern is a 3rd shot drive down the middle or directly at the weaker player, keeping the ball fast and spinny with low net clearance of 6" or less. That usually creates a defensive block. The follow up shot is either a wide 5th shot kitchen drop if the block is short and low, a swinging drive volley against a flat mid height block or another groundstroke drive if the ball is popped up.

These are the patterns I'd suggest for tennis players switching to PB. It's a more natural combo.
Click to expand...

My go to pattern is a 3rd shot drive down the middle or directly at the weaker player
Click to expand...

More complicated for me … playing mixed doubles with wife. For one thing … there are two of you … each making best 3rd shot choice if they are the one hitting it. The good players target my wife on ros … so most of the time she is hitting 3rd shot. She was a 4.0 tennis player … but no power … and no power drive in pickleball. Choices … hit low over net with softer drive, drop, lob, too high drive :love: . We have gone back to stacking with her on right side (hopefully all her 3rd shots are forehands). As I heard one guy say about playing with his wife (beginner) in a tournament “we squeezed her area down to the sideline and I still never hit a ball”. :-D

We have improved to the point very few of the better open play players have long point runs. We are siding out teams. We have too many times we just don’t score enough … and I finally figured out part of the reason is I don’t get to hit that 3rd shot much. It’s one of the losses of going away from a power paddle … at least I had some chance to hit a good enough serve to get to hit 3rd shot.
 
ByeByePoly said:
More complicated for me … playing mixed doubles with wife. For one thing … there are two of you … each making best 3rd shot choice if they are the one hitting it. The good players target my wife on ros … so most of the time she is hitting 3rd shot. She was a 4.0 tennis player … but no power … and no power drive in pickleball. Choices … hit low over net with softer drive, drop, lob, too high drive :love: . We have gone back to stacking with her on right side (hopefully all her 3rd shots are forehands). As I heard one guy say about playing with his wife (beginner) in a tournament “we squeezed her area down to the sideline and I still never hit a ball”. :-D

We have improved to the point very few of the better open play players have long point runs. We are siding out teams. We have too many times we just don’t score enough … and I finally figured out part of the reason is I don’t get to hit that 3rd shot much. It’s one of the losses of going away from a power paddle … at least I had some chance to hit a good enough serve to get to hit 3rd shot.
Click to expand...
Yeah in PB doubles, partner makes a huge difference... More so than tennis.
 
ByeByePoly said:
This was about when you are already at the kitchen in a volley firefight. With 1hbh typical ping pong punch arming stroke, generally no time to add shoulder turn. Also … anyone who has hit a 1hbh in tennis is aware just how exact/particular shoulder turn assistance has to be. The mechanics of the 2hbh allow time for left/off hand acceleration with some shoulder turn. At least that is what it looks like to me.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Different shot selection in a hand battle.
 
ByeByePoly said:
Well … 3rd shot drop is definitely not shelved by the Johns brothers. But it’s another question what is best percentage for rec player … depending on skill/level and opponents. I prefer the 3rd shot drive … then best next shot available… but put myself in one month 3rd shot drop detention with softer Prism Flash. I think I made progress … but fyi … this morning in open play I am pulling V7 (thermoformed) back out for comparison. If it works out … will also hit wife’s Flash (thermoformed). The best day I ever had was playing with her paddle … but maybe just a good day and not the paddle.
Click to expand...
I notice more pros are using third shot drives now even with their amazing drop skills.
 
Bud said:
I notice more pros are using third shot drives now even with their amazing drop skills.
Click to expand...

Yes … would be interesting to see a stat on 3rd shot drop vs drive for Johns brothers. Right now nobody has been able to overcome the forced dink/defense game with offense. I find the men’s pro doubles much more boring to watch than the ladies pro doubles.

Interesting test today going back to Vatic Pro V7 today. I was a much better player with it than my last month with Prism Flash. So much so wife is probably hiding Prism and that soft game bs as I type :love: . I think coming from tennis and say playing 4.0ish pball … for me I need to weight hitting skills over soft game. Need both … but shelving V7 power hurt my rec game. I can still drop and dink fine with V7 (doesn’t feel as good as Prism) … but my advantage at this pball level is tennis hitting skills. Obviously at some level banging/hitting skills plateau … but doubt I will reach that level. Also, I don’t think I would enjoy the game as much if I couldn’t get some tennis hitting fix … dinkfest only doubles doesn’t appeal to me. Oh … topspin lob back with V7 … enjoy those.

This is what I would tell tennis players coming to pickleball. Your tennis hitting from baseline, and swinging volley skills should not be shelved 100% for soft game. Use tennis strokes to your advantage … serves, ros, swinging volleys, overheads). But … tennis skills from baseline without good kitchen skills won’t beat good intermediate teams (you can’t hit through good intermediate opponents already at kitchen). Most points will be won/finished at kitchen … whether or not post drop, dink or drive. You come with the tennis skills … spend your time on kitchen skills … and yes drops need to be in tool kit. Paddle choice is another long frustrating matter. :-D
 
ByeByePoly said:
Yes … would be interesting to see a stat on 3rd shot drop vs drive for Johns brothers. Right now nobody has been able to overcome the forced dink/defense game with offense. I find the men’s pro doubles much more boring to watch than the ladies pro doubles.

Interesting test today going back to Vatic Pro V7 today. I was a much better player with it than my last month with Prism Flash. So much so wife is probably hiding Prism and that soft game bs as I type :love: . I think coming from tennis and say playing 4.0ish pball … for me I need to weight hitting skills over soft game. Need both … but shelving V7 power hurt my rec game. I can still drop and dink fine with V7 (doesn’t feel as good as Prism) … but my advantage at this pball level is tennis hitting skills. Obviously at some level banging/hitting skills plateau … but doubt I will reach that level. Also, I don’t think I would enjoy the game as much if I couldn’t get some tennis hitting fix … dinkfest only doubles doesn’t appeal to me. Oh … topspin lob back with V7 … enjoy those.

This is what I would tell tennis players coming to pickleball. Your tennis hitting from baseline, and swinging volley skills should not be shelved 100% for soft game. Use tennis strokes to your advantage … serves, ros, swinging volleys, overheads). But … tennis skills from baseline without good kitchen skills won’t beat good intermediate teams (you can’t hit through good intermediate opponents already at kitchen). Most points will be won/finished at kitchen … whether or not post drop, dink or drive. You come with the tennis skills … spend your time on kitchen skills … and yes drops need to be in tool kit. Paddle choice is another long frustrating matter. :-D
Click to expand...
Yes very long time tennis player...you must master you play at the kitchen!
 
ByeByePoly said:
Yes … would be interesting to see a stat on 3rd shot drop vs drive for Johns brothers. Right now nobody has been able to overcome the forced dink/defense game with offense. I find the men’s pro doubles much more boring to watch than the ladies pro doubles.

Interesting test today going back to Vatic Pro V7 today. I was a much better player with it than my last month with Prism Flash. So much so wife is probably hiding Prism and that soft game bs as I type :love: . I think coming from tennis and say playing 4.0ish pball … for me I need to weight hitting skills over soft game. Need both … but shelving V7 power hurt my rec game. I can still drop and dink fine with V7 (doesn’t feel as good as Prism) … but my advantage at this pball level is tennis hitting skills. Obviously at some level banging/hitting skills plateau … but doubt I will reach that level. Also, I don’t think I would enjoy the game as much if I couldn’t get some tennis hitting fix … dinkfest only doubles doesn’t appeal to me. Oh … topspin lob back with V7 … enjoy those.

This is what I would tell tennis players coming to pickleball. Your tennis hitting from baseline, and swinging volley skills should not be shelved 100% for soft game. Use tennis strokes to your advantage … serves, ros, swinging volleys, overheads). But … tennis skills from baseline without good kitchen skills won’t beat good intermediate teams (you can’t hit through good intermediate opponents already at kitchen). Most points will be won/finished at kitchen … whether or not post drop, dink or drive. You come with the tennis skills … spend your time on kitchen skills … and yes drops need to be in tool kit. Paddle choice is another long frustrating matter. :-D
Click to expand...
Agree. Work on improving your aggressive game. That's where pickleball is headed.

Work on improving your drives to get them within 4 to 6 inches of the net top.
 
Bud said:
Agree. Work on improving your aggressive game. That's where pickleball is headed.

Work on improving your drives to get them within 4 to 6 inches of the net top.
Click to expand...

I was a consistent low net clearance tennis player, and that carried over to pball. The problem with the flatter hard hit drives from baseline is it tends to carry to opponent volley zone at kitchen (good volleys and sometimes drops). I have noticed you have to figure out what bothers an opponent more (opponents at the kitchen) … flatter harder low baseline drive, or more spinny dip. I have found it surprising that the spinny dip often works better against some good players that handle most hard drives, also with the increased targets available (sharp cc ts from right baseline to opponent right wide just past kitchen seems to work in our rec open play). I would like to add the opposite cc with 2hbh … I hit flatter with 1hbh. Down the line, and middle (not right at opponent) seems like the best time for flatter baseline drive … opponent has to move and hit with minimum reaction time.
 
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Airspun said:
any 4.5 tennis player could be a pickleball pro in a month or less, fact.
Click to expand...
Tell me you’ve never played high level pickleball without telling me you’ve never played high level pickleball. You’ve got a former #11 in the world tennis pro struggling but you think 4.5s gonna make the tour. LOL
 
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vex said:
Tell me you’ve never played high level pickleball without telling me you’ve never played high level pickleball. You’ve got a former #11 in the world tennis pro struggling but you think 4.5s gonna make the tour. LOL
Click to expand...
Yes 4.5 could make “tour” super easy barely an inconvenience. Cope.
 
ByeByePoly said:
This was about when you are already at the kitchen in a volley firefight. With 1hbh typical ping pong punch arming stroke, generally no time to add shoulder turn. Also … anyone who has hit a 1hbh in tennis is aware just how exact/particular shoulder turn assistance has to be. The mechanics of the 2hbh allow time for left/off hand acceleration with some shoulder turn. At least that is what it looks like to me.
Click to expand...
Unless they are good at the arming bunt variation :p
 
Bud said:
Why do you continue clowning around in the pickleball threads? It's clear you don't have a clue about anything pickleball.
Click to expand...
I’m actually a semi pro already beating noobs like yourself on a daily basis, wanna play? But beware the kitchen of Spain
 
Couple of more Pickle experiences since my first post have convinced me even more that the dink from spots farther back from the kitchen (under the pressure of the opponents already at the kitchen) is the only shot that tennis players need to learn.
 
One great thing about Pickle is that it is considered OK to hit people directly. Last time I played, I hit 2 overheads against a largish old woman and she got both back on the bounce. I then rammed the third ball directly at her body and she desperately tried to turn sideways fast but couldn't.
I don't have a latest-model powerful expensive paddle but I am thinking of buying one. I suspect that some of the oldies are hitting powerful shots with a short backswing only because of their paddle.
 
sureshs said:
One great thing about Pickle is that it is considered OK to hit people directly. Last time I played, I hit 2 overheads against a largish old woman and she got both back on the bounce. I then rammed the third ball directly at her body and she desperately tried to turn sideways fast but couldn't.
I don't have a latest-model powerful expensive paddle but I am thinking of buying one. I suspect that some of the oldies are hitting powerful shots with a short backswing only because of their paddle.
Click to expand...
How much power can be contained within a paddle?
 
optic yellow said:
It sounds like not much.
Click to expand...
The article concludes that weight is what matters. In tennis, power comes from two sources; the weight of the racket at low speeds and the swingspeed of the racket at high speeds, with stiffness also playing a greater role at higher swing speeds.

With the short strokes of Pickle, it makes sense that weight will be the dominant factor for power.
 
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