Important article to read-implies college tennis should be 1st sport to go in light of COVID budget cuts

andfor

Legend
That's exactly what I am referring to. So you are saying it is OK to take revenue from FB and BB to subsidize other sports at the universities when the graduation for AA FB and BB is dismal. Those athletes need help the most and it cost money. They make money for the universities and a big chunk of that money is being to subsidize other sports. and the overwhelming majority of the non-revenue sports are non-AA athletes. It is a version of modern day plantation if you ask me.



There are rules in the NCAA rule book about low graduation rate but there are also ways to "work-around" the rules to avoid getting in trouble. Most Unversities are doing exactly just that. My company does some lobbying works with the US government and the government has the rule forbidding lawmakers from having accepting gifts from lobbyists for things like letting lobbyists paying meals at expensive restaurants, sitting down. You know how lobbyists get around the rule. They have meals at the bar which does not apply by this rule. I hope you get it. The NCAA is very much like the US house or US Senate ethic committee where they police themselves. It is like asking a thief to be honest.



That's absolutely FALSE. You should watch HBO Real Sport and see that some injured athletes go on government Medicaid after their NCAA healthcare coverage stops. About purchasing the NCAA additional insurance options, well, tell that to AA kids who come from poor background and housing projects. How can they purchase additional insurance options if they do not have money? The schools could have purchased additional insurances for them with revenues from FB and BB but the schools rather spend that money on non-revenue sports and athletes. Is that fair to you?
1. Let's deal in facts. AA FBS football graduations rates are around 78% http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/di-student-athletes-graduate-record-high-rates
2. What sport you play is a choice. If your goal is to play pro and you don't like going to college and playing sport for an athletic scholarship in return for a college degree, skip college, or choose another sport.
3. Most colleges and universities are non-profit. Additional revenue surpluses have to be spent elsewhere. How the school chooses to spend those monies benefits non-student athletes and what you hate, non-revenue generating sports.
4. Outside the PF very few football and basketball programs generate huge revenues. There are exceptions, there's even a few tennis teams and other typically non-revenue genterating sports in there, https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/SportsProfitability
You only seem to know one school OSU. You need to get out from that bubble. There's other schools.
5. Sight some facts to back up your claims of work arounds and lobbying claims that explicitly show widespread corruption.
6. Have you taken your grievances to the NCAA, OSU president or AD. What do they say?
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/di-student-athletes-graduate-record-high-rates

You seem to work for the NCAA because you like to defend its status quo. There are lies, lies and statistics.

2. What sport you play is a choice. If your goal is to play pro and you don't like going to college and playing sport for an athletic scholarship in return for a college degree, skip college, or choose another sport.

It is easier for a non-AA person to say when you're not growing up poor and in housing projects.

3. Most colleges and universities are non-profit. Additional revenue surpluses have to be spent elsewhere. How the school chooses to spend those monies benefits non-student athletes and what you hate, non-revenue generating sports.

How about spending money on AA athletes that bring revenues to the schools? Better food, better stipend, better education support system instead of fleecing that money to other sports.

4. Outside the PF very few football and basketball programs generate huge revenues. There are exceptions, there's even a few tennis teams and other typically non-revenue genterating sports in there, https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/SportsProfitability
You only seem to know one school OSU. You need to get out from that bubble. There's other schools.
5. Sight some facts to back up your claims of work arounds and lobbying claims that explicitly show widespread corruption.
6. Have you taken your grievances to the NCAA, OSU president or AD. What do they say?

My own OSU bubble, really? Florida State University (aka Free Shoes U.) has the worst graduation rate for the past ten years: https://www.tallahassee.com/story/s...-under-jimbo-fisher-florida-state/4007208002/

Take my grievances to the OSU president or AD? Are you serious? It is like a minority person complaining about police brutalities against minorities. It is falling on deaf ear.
 

andfor

Legend
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/di-student-athletes-graduate-record-high-rates

You seem to work for the NCAA because you like to defend its status quo. There are lies, lies and statistics.



It is easier for a non-AA person to say when you're not growing up poor and in housing projects.



How about spending money on AA athletes that bring revenues to the schools? Better food, better stipend, better education support system instead of fleecing that money to other sports.



My own OSU bubble, really? Florida State University (aka Free Shoes U.) has the worst graduation rate for the past ten years: https://www.tallahassee.com/story/s...-under-jimbo-fisher-florida-state/4007208002/

Take my grievances to the OSU president or AD? Are you serious? It is like a minority person complaining about police brutalities against minorities. It is falling on deaf ear.
Zero facts from you. Just grievances. Write your president and AD and let them know, see if they respond. Jimbo Fisher is no longer head coach at FSU, Mike Norvell is and I bet their graduation rates rises fast. So many unrelated talking points from you that are merely deflections from any facts. BTW, I think the NCAA overall is a disaster.
 

Doan

Rookie
College athletics across the spectrum is not a zero sum game. Maybe that resonates, I’m guessing you refuse to consider that. There’s plenty to counter your AA football and BB analogies, but what’s most relevant is there’s many programs outside your myopic view that debunk your misguided perception. Add to that that since you attended school and probably then, injured athletes still get their scholarships.

Injured athletes may or may not still get their scholarships. Depends on what type of scholarships they got. Most were more akin to to one year contracts. Recently changed where some D1 got 4 year contracts. D2/D3 are still one year contracts.
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Zero facts from you. Just grievances. Write your president and AD and let them know, see if they respond. Jimbo Fisher is no longer head coach at FSU, Mike Norvell is and I bet their graduation rates rises fast. So many unrelated talking points from you that are merely deflections from any facts. BTW, I think the NCAA overall is a disaster.

How do you know that graduation rates will rise under Norvell? Any proof of that? Norvell has NEVER been a head coach at a Power-5 school. Group of 5 school like Memphis is like minor league baseball in comparison to Major League baseball. Let see if Florida State can beat Clemson. If Norvell does not win, he will be gone, doesn't matter if he improves graduation rate at FSU.

It is to see that you tried to sweep graduation rate issues for AA players under the rug by blaming Jimbo Fisher. Isn't Willie Taggart responsible for it too? The school President and AD are just the old boys club who don't give a damn about minority college athletes, just lip services. Unless you're a minority and come from poor background, you have absolutely no idea. Are you a minority? Judging from your posts, I don't think you're.
 

andfor

Legend
How do you know that graduation rates will rise under Norvell? Any proof of that? Norvell has NEVER been a head coach at a Power-5 school. Group of 5 school like Memphis is like minor league baseball in comparison to Major League baseball. Let see if Florida State can beat Clemson. If Norvell does not win, he will be gone, doesn't matter if he improves graduation rate at FSU.

It is to see that you tried to sweep graduation rate issues for AA players under the rug by blaming Jimbo Fisher. Isn't Willie Taggart responsible for it too? The school President and AD are just the old boys club who don't give a damn about minority college athletes, just lip services. Unless you're a minority and come from poor background, you have absolutely no idea. Are you a minority? Judging from your posts, I don't think you're.
Memphis was ranked one spot behind FSU. I'm not sweeping anything under the rug and FSU along with the coaches are to blame. My race has nothing to do with it. You bringing it up is just a liberal deflection tactic to try and silence the discussion which you are losing.
 
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sovertennis

Professional
In an attempt to bring this thread back on topic, and subvert the pointless verbal food fight...

I know well the women's tennis coach at a nearby D1 school. He lives in my neighborhood and we talk regularly (I've coached at the college level, so we have some commonality). It's a mid-major that's generally ranked at or about 50, usually wins the conference, then gets knocked out in the first round at NCAAs. About a third of the players are international. It's a very high-tuition college--the allotted scholarships for the team amount to about $300k annually.

He's pretty sure that tennis will be the first sport eliminated, maybe as soon as this year, if the virus prevents the campus from re-opening in September.
 

JW10S

Hall of Fame
Unfortunately I believe some college admins who had been looking for a reason (read 'excuse') to shut down a tennis program will use this to do so whether their reasons are valid or not. Just a hunch.

As has been mentioned many times, college tennis faces many challenges to validate it's worth (non-revenue sport, foreign players, etc, etc) and one that's not often mentioned is real estate. I know a coach of a very successful D1 team who is often reminded about how much area is taken up by 6 or more tennis courts that serve relatively few athletes and how big a building could be built on the site in place of them. This pandemic may just make all these challenges seem bigger and could be the last straw for a lot of programs. I hope I'm wrong.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
Unfortunately I believe some college admins who had been looking for a reason (read 'excuse') to shut down a tennis program will use this to do so whether their reasons are valid or not. Just a hunch.

As has been mentioned many times, college tennis faces many challenges to validate it's worth (non-revenue sport, foreign players, etc, etc) and one that's not often mentioned is real estate. I know a coach of a very successful D1 team who is often reminded about how much area is taken up by 6 or more tennis courts that serve relatively few athletes and how big a building could be built on the site in place of them. This pandemic may just make all these challenges seem bigger and could be the last straw for a lot of programs. I hope I'm wrong.
Luckily, colleges are going to have no money for building new buildings in the near future. Donations for that kind of thing are drying up. Only projects that almost completed their fundraising before the pandemic hit are going to proceed now. A few years down the road, things could be different, of course.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame

Good news in that the NCAA rejected the request of 5 conference commissionsers that the organization grant blanket waivers to the requirement that FBS schools sponsor 16 sports and FCS 14. Schools still can request sport sponsorship requirement waivers on an individual basis.

Here is the link to a letter sent to the NCAA signed by leaders of 17 nonrevenue college sports leaders https://www.savecollegesports.com/openletter Here is a key quote: "Last year, NCAA Division I institutions provided educational opportunities for 141,483 students in Olympic sports. These are not just exceptional athletes, but outstanding students with graduation rates and donation rates higher than their non-athletic peers. These student-athletes generated $3.6 billion in tuition and fees to their universities, an amount nearly equal what it costs to provide these opportunities."
 

dak95_00

Hall of Fame
I read a number of posts and no one mentioned the costs associated with maintaining courts for at most 4 people at a time. I’ve seen local high schools turn their courts into parking lots to get more use. Colleges are expanding to increase enrollment. Green spaces, as in plant life, are on the rise so tennis courts are on the decline.

Travel is not much of an expense when it comes to operations and they’re just driving a van and not staying overnight. A resurfacing of a tennis court is expensive.

How many of you have seen courts that have been completely let go; cracks, weeds, etc.? I’ve seen a number on college campuses. North Ga in Gainesville has a plastic sportcourt surface on their courts. I’m sure it was an attempt to save money over the long run kind of like schools turning from grass fields to turf fields.
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
I read a number of posts and no one mentioned the costs associated with maintaining courts for at most 4 people at a time. I’ve seen local high schools turn their courts into parking lots to get more use. Colleges are expanding to increase enrollment. Green spaces, as in plant life, are on the rise so tennis courts are on the decline.

Travel is not much of an expense when it comes to operations and they’re just driving a van and not staying overnight. A resurfacing of a tennis court is expensive.

How many of you have seen courts that have been completely let go; cracks, weeds, etc.? I’ve seen a number on college campuses. North Ga in Gainesville has a plastic sportcourt surface on their courts. I’m sure it was an attempt to save money over the long run kind of like schools turning from grass fields to turf fields.

Is this a public or private university? Just about all the universities I've been to have pristine both indoor and outdoor tennis courts.

My son got accepted to University of Mary Washington on a full academic scholarship but he turned down the offer to attend music school. Had he decided to attend UMW, he would have played tennis there. I've been to UMW at least ten times in the past three times for tournaments and the tennis courts, both indoor and outdoor, are absolutely beautiful: https://www.google.com/maps/place/U...1ef2db66d097c3c1!8m2!3d38.3013039!4d-77.47447

Both UVA and VA Tech tennis courts are even better than UMW. The satellite view shows the tennis courts of North GA in Gainesville look pretty bad :(. Even the filed next to it look kinda dangerous.
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame

Good news in that the NCAA rejected the request of 5 conference commissionsers that the organization grant blanket waivers to the requirement that FBS schools sponsor 16 sports and FCS 14. Schools still can request sport sponsorship requirement waivers on an individual basis.

Do not let that fool you. That's the loop hole. The NCAA certainly does not want to invite investigations from the Federal Government by granting blanket waivers to the requirements. They will grant waiver on an individual basis on 99.99% of schools that apply for waivers.

@jcgatennismom, do you still remember the athlete transfer rule? It stated that an athlete who transfers from school A to school B MUST sit out one year before he/she can play for school B, EXCEPT when under extraordinary circumstances. Well, that's the loop hole. My alma mater, OSU, exploited this loophole so that Justin Field could transfer from U. of Georgia to Ohio State and played Quarterback for the Buckeyes IMMEDIATELY without having to sit out one year. Tate Martell transferred from OSU to U. of Miami without having to sit out one year. At the end of the day , the NCAA will grant waivers to any schools that apply for it. It is purely revenue driven.
 
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Does anyone familiar with the current situation believe this will impact more on International Students than US Citizens? Will we see a situation where US College based Tennis programs shift their focus to US Citizens exclusively?
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
Does anyone familiar with the current situation believe this will impact more on International Students than US Citizens? Will we see a situation where US College based Tennis programs shift their focus to US Citizens exclusively?
I think there may be less international students in the next few years because international students will choose not to come because sports budgets will be tighter (lower scholarships) and because their parents may be concerned about their players getting sick over here or just the logistical difficulties there were this year getting home. Most international athletes did go home, but not all were able to, and some may have had to spend more $ than planned to get home. We also dont know when borders will open. Many players are from Europe. Will they be able to fly back in late August? Iffy. January-probably so. Will they want to book flights not knowing if unis will open or if they could close down again in Oct? Hard enough for US families to decide. It is estimated 15% of US freshmen may take a gap year.

On a different note, US universities will be hurting because international student enrollment is projected to be down 25%. Many international students are full pay to attend US STEM programs.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
Travel is not much of an expense when it comes to operations and they’re just driving a van and not staying overnight. A resurfacing of a tennis court is expensive.

/QUOTE]
With conference alignments based on football/basketball, teams in the past have had to fly to play conference matches or stay in hotels even if driving for matches 5-6 hours away. One of the changes mentioned in posts/articles is a separate conference alignment for nonrevenue sports. That would cut travel expense. If matches are close in distance, school may only have to pay for one meal vs several. However teams usually play 2-3 matches on an away weekend with at least one night hotel stay.

I doubt any teams will be going to Australia again for years! I think South Carolina and USC flew to Australia for an exhibition match around AO in 2019 and Minnesota traveled to AO for week or 10 days in 2018 I think.
 
@jcgatennismom, Thank You for the great reply to my post. I know of a few Australians in the US College program who have returned home now awaiting news of their future. Many of them still think they we will be back Stateside in your Autumn (Fall!). I guess "Time will Tell".

Also know several players who are looking to come across in 2021. I guess it is too early to tell how they will pan out. Hopefully, they are looking at other options just in case.

Interesting comments about International Students being full pay to do US STEM programs. (I assume by "full pay" you mean the students pay full fees themselves? And STEM means "Science Technology Engineering Mathematics"?). Most of the students from here who attend US College programs involving tennis do Business based courses.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
@jcgatennismom,

Interesting comments about International Students being full pay to do US STEM programs. (I assume by "full pay" you mean the students pay full fees themselves? And STEM means "Science Technology Engineering Mathematics"?). Most of the students from here who attend US College programs involving tennis do Business based courses.
1.1MM international students attended US colleges in 2019. Top countries sending students were China, India, and South Korea. Yes, students (or families) pay full tuition themselves. In fact, California residents have protested the increase in international students at their Univ of Calif campuses; those universities receive about $30K more for an international admission vs in state tuition so universities have dropped the % acceptance of in state students.

Agreed that many international athletes do business majors-hard to fit in science labs with practices and travel esp for D1 teams. There were around 20,000 international athletes playing NCAA D1, D2, and D3 in 2018 for all sports-dont know how many for NAIA or JUCO. 63% of D1 international players are internationals. Not a lot of Aussies here for tennis-47 men for D1 in 2018 and 11 for D2. Fun guys though. My son regularly hits with a New Zealand player who graduated and who is staying in the States while he waits for Futures to start back up. Top 3 countries for men's D1 players are Spain, UK , and Germany.
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
All this angst about the local tennis program provided me the impetus to read a lot about the NCAA, money in collegiate sports, etc. If I owned the world I would return all collegiate sports to intramurals and let MLB, NBA, NFL and Olympics finance their own development programs.

Me too. I think all collegiate sports should be intramurals - no scholarships, student organized, etc. If folks want to form semi-pro leagues, which is what a lot of D1 programs are, in effect - they can do so without a collegiate affiliation. Mixing education with high-level athletics doesn't seem at all necessary; in fact, it seems like a distraction for all but the small percentage of schools that have big time profit-generating football/basketball programs. And the notion that these athletes are sharing anything resembling the same student experience as the rest of the student body is a joke.
 
Not a lot of Aussies here for tennis-47 men for D1 in 2018 and 11 for D2.

Many of the Aussies pursue US College Tennis programs for two reasons ... Lifestyle and Tennis development. The quality of University education in Australia is very high so unless they break into one of the big US Colleges (eg. Ivy League) they are not going because the quality of Tertiary education in Australia is poor.

Most Aussies that return from US College Tennis programs usually become Tennis Coaches or complete further Tertiary Education back home and become things like School Teachers.

Interestingly, some of the bigger Australian Universities are now trying to establish a decent high level Tennis competition. Unfortunately, the National Tennis body here, Tennis Australia, has little real interest in developing the sport in Australia. It pays a lot of lip service but leaves the heavy lifting to those at the grass roots level. The current pandemic situation may lead it look at new ways of keeping more of the talented tennis players at home. That might include providing a lot more focus on the sport at local Tertiary Academic Institutions.

This would also provide additional opportunities for Australian players if the US College System starts to tighten up funding for International athletes.
 
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bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Most Aussies that return from US College Tennis programs usually become Tennis Coaches or complete further Tertiary Education back home and become things like School Teachers.

How are teachers being treated in Australia? Being teachers in the US is a thankless hard work and low paying job comparing to other industries. Teachers are not appreciated here in the US, IHMO. They have to deal with crazy public school parents who think that their kids are the best of everything. Because they pay taxes, they think they own the teachers. A teacher with 20 years of teaching experience is making less than a software developer just graduated from a University.

True story. A relative of mine went to Cornell to study biomedical engineering but decided to become a science teacher to "change the world". She gave up after two years from burning out and having to deal with some really crazy parents. She left the teaching and joined a pharmaceutical company. Two years later, she got promoted to director of Research & Development and one of the crazy parents is now reporting directly to her. Karma !!!

I hope teachers in Australia are being treated better than teachers here in the US.
 
How are teachers being treated in Australia? Being teachers in the US is a thankless hard work and low paying job comparing to other industries. Teachers are not appreciated here in the US, IHMO. They have to deal with crazy public school parents who think that their kids are the best of everything. Because they pay taxes, they think they own the teachers. A teacher with 20 years of teaching experience is making less than a software developer just graduated from a University.

True story. A relative of mine went to Cornell to study biomedical engineering but decided to become a science teacher to "change the world". She gave up after two years from burning out and having to deal with some really crazy parents. She left the teaching and joined a pharmaceutical company. Two years later, she got promoted to director of Research & Development and one of the crazy parents is now reporting directly to her. Karma !!!

I hope teachers in Australia are being treated better than teachers here in the US.
Teaching is a challenging job for sure but don't forget they get a pension that most Americans don't. So don't feel too bad for them. Cry some one else a river.
 

Doan

Rookie
Teaching is a challenging job for sure but don't forget they get a pension that most Americans don't. So don't feel too bad for them. Cry some one else a river.

5 years vesting and being penalized for moving States means it isn't as great as everyone thinks. It rewards teachers being able to stick it out in one State until retirement. So don't be surprised if the incentive system creates a lot of teachers who go through the motions when they are near retirement.
 
5 years vesting and being penalized for moving States means it isn't as great as everyone thinks. It rewards teachers being able to stick it out in one State until retirement. So don't be surprised if the incentive system creates a lot of teachers who go through the motions when they are near retirement.
You have a job, you get paid, you have a pension so what are you crying about? Please give it a rest during these difficult times for so many.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
I'm not a teacher. I would like to focus on tennis but the courts are not open yet here.

Public courts are there with all the nets up. we can just go in and play. What are they going to do to us ?? lock us up ? if you see the police, just RUN
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
You have a job, you get paid, you have a pension so what are you crying about? Please give it a rest during these difficult times for so many.

The pension for teachers is as great as you think it is. Many teachers who retired late in their career still have to work part-time, even full-time for some, to supplement their pension income. Most of the teachers have to do private tutoring to supplement their income. I know because several of them are tutoring my children in math, chemistry, physics, and computer science. You make it sound like teachers have it made or something like that.
 
How are teachers being treated in Australia?
I hope teachers in Australia are being treated better than teachers here in the US.

OK. Money first, In Australia ...

Minimum Basic Wage is around $40,000 AUD per year.
Average Wage is around $78,000 AUD per year.

Australia's Education System consists of Public Schools (Government Run and Funded) and Independent Schools (Privately Run, Private and Government Funded).

In the PUBLIC Sector, A Graduate School Teacher (First Year) typically earns around $65,000 AUD per year. Then salaries increase on a sliding scale up to around $110,00 AUD per year. School Principals can earn $120,000 AUD per year and beyond.

In the INDEPENDENT Sector, the sky is the limit. Independent Schools are pretty much run as For Profit Businesses so School Teachers in those schools can command decent salaries depending on experience and fit. ($80,000 pa up to $200,000 pa for Teachers. Some Private School Principals earn up to $300,000 p.a.)

So on the whole, School Teachers here are reasonably well paid.

As for how teachers are treated. For the most part, School Teachers who show a decent level of commitment to the vocation are treated quite well by all and sundry. OF course, it isn't a perfect system and there are exceptions to every rule. Saying that, I think a lot more emphasis has been placed on the value of Teachers over the past thirty years. There was a period probably between 1965 and 1990 where Teaching was viewed a a lowly profession, certainly in the Public sector at Secondary School level.

But Governments in Australia have started to realise the importance of Education to the country. The quality of Teaching is improving as Governments start to provide more funding and mandate increased Academic Qualification Standards for those who wish to pursue Teaching as a career. A lot of this has been driven by the Australian Public who have also realised that a decent Education is the most important thing along with decent Health Care.
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say "they get a Pension". Please elaborate.

A "pension" is a defined benefit when someone enters the work force here in the US. For example, at my current company, I get 1% of my salary for every year I work at the company, calculated average salary of the last three years. If I stay with the company for a minimum of five years, I will get a pension when I retired from that company. Let say I make 200k/yr in my last three years, I will get 10K/yr from the company's pension. If I stay with the company for 30 years, at 200k/year, I will get 60K/year in pension from the company. It is essentially "free" money as a thank you from the company for my service in the past 30 years. This money is separate from my 401K investment and social security from the government. My company also matches 7% in 401K contribution at 100%. In other words, if I put in10K into my 401k saving, the company will match another 10K, so I will have 20K total. Another way of savings. By the time I retire from working, the pension, 401K retirement and social security, I will have about the same salary that I am making now but I will not be working. That assumes that the stock market will come back up ;). As far as pension goes, there are many ways to slice and dice this, I can take a one time lump sump payment, have a fix amount during my lifetime, spouse survivorship, etc...

The issue with pension is that it is very expensive and companies are on the hook for it and a hugh liabilities. Car makers like GM and Ford are in trouble for it. That's why there are very few companies in the US still offer pension today. They shift over the 401K method and make employees responsible for their own retirement plans.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
@Doan @bobleenov1963 @Collegetennisrules At least public school teachers do better than adjunct college professors who may earn only $3000 per semester per course taught with no benefits. And that was before COVID-19. I wonder why they dont get certified to teach public K-12 so they would at least have benefits. Different articles state that 25-30% of adjunct professors are in poverty, some on welfare or getting food from food banks between low pay and student loans.
 
The pension for teachers is as great as you think it is. Many teachers who retired late in their career still have to work part-time, even full-time for some, to supplement their pension income. Most of the teachers have to do private tutoring to supplement their income. I know because several of them are tutoring my children in math, chemistry, physics, and computer science. You make it sound like teachers have it made or something like that.

Depends on the state. Some states have no statewide pension plans for educators, while In Texas, rule is 2.3% * (number of years) * (average of five highest years). This is not just for teachers, but for all public education employees (public university, coaches!!). That is just the monetary compensation; healthcare and other benefits are subsidized as well.

Adjuncts, especially in the non-STEM fields, are definitely the toughest positions. Very little pay and dim prospects before any of this COVID ever hit. The trend in higher educations at community college and non-flagship schools has been to hire adjuncts because they are so cheap, compared to full time faculty.
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Depends on the state. Some states have no statewide pension plans for educators, while In Texas, rule is 2.3% * (number of years) * (average of five highest years). This is not just for teachers, but for all public education employees (public university, coaches!!). That is just the monetary compensation; healthcare and other benefits are subsidized as well.

Adjuncts, especially in the non-STEM fields, are definitely the toughest positions. Very little pay and dim prospects before any of this COVID ever hit. The trend in higher educations at community college and non-flagship schools has been to hire adjuncts because they are so cheap, compared to full time faculty.

I am very happy to know that teachers in Texas have a deserved good pension plan (y)

People who are not in STEM fields are in a very difficult situations at the moment. Most CC and flagship Universities also hire a lot of adjuncts for STEM courses. There are a few of them at my work place teach at local community colleges in the evening. I think they are doing it for fun and not for the money because they are making over 250K/yr with their day jobs. One person at the company is teaches a Certified Information System Security Professional (CISSP) course at the CC and he is making like 400K/yr in his day job.
 
A "pension" is a defined benefit when someone enters the work force here in the US.

Australia operates differently.

In Australia, what most of us refer to as a "Pension" is actually a from of Social Security that is paid to the Recipient directly by the Government. All Pensions paid in Australia are sourced from Taxpayer revenues. There are several types of pension, including Disability Pension, Family Tax Benefits, and Aged Pension.

Any Australian Citizen can apply to receive the Aged Pension when they turn 67yo. The amount they are paid is subject to both an Assets Test and an Income Test. (At the present time, the maximum Aged Pension is about $25,000 AUD per year). The Aged Pension is available to any Citizen who fulfills the criteria and continues to be paid until the person dies. (There are people in Australia who have been receiving the Aged Pension for 40 years.)

The other common Retirement Income plan is called Superannuation. This works in a very similar manner to your 401K Scheme. People contribute to their Superannuation Fund for all of their working life. Most Funds are Accumulation Funds and the money can be invested into a range of Investment classes. Once the individual reaches a certain age, they can access the Superannuation savings either as a lump sum, or convert it into a Superannuation Retirement Stream which operates like a pension.

The scheme you initially mention in your post is called a Defined Benefits Retirement Scheme. These were very popular in Australia until the early 1990s. However, many companies phased them out as the Superannuation scheme became more popular. (There was a growing problem with unfunded liabilities similar to the issue you mention in your post.)

The level of Retirement income each individual receives is primarily a function of how much money they are prepared to commit to their Superannuation over the decades. Obviously, the earlier they start contributing, the longer the investment time frame. The more money they contribute, the more it will grow. However, there has to be a balance because money in Superannuation is essentially locked away for decades and can only be accessed near to, at Retirement, or as a result of some other exceptional conditions mainly to do with health or severe financial hardship.

(As an aside, due to the Global pandemic, the Federal Government is allowing all Australian Citizens who are unemployed atm to access up to $20,000 from their Superannuation funds to cover their current expenses. This is an extraordinary step but many hundreds of thousands of Australians have taken up the opportunity to access those funds.)
 
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bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
Thank you @Karma Tennis for the detailed explaination

Australia operates differently.

In Australia, what most of us refer to as a "Pension" is actually a from of Social Security that is paid to the Recipient directly by the Government. All Pensions paid in Australia are sourced from Taxpayer revenues. There are several types of pension, including Disability Pension, Family Tax Benefits, and Aged Pension.

Any Australian Citizen can apply to receive the Aged Pension when they turn 67yo. The amount they are paid is subject to both an Assets Test and an Income Test. (At the present time, the maximum Aged Pension is about $25,000 AUD per year). The Aged Pension is available to any Citizen who fulfills the criteria and continues to be paid until the person dies. (There are people in Australia who have been receiving the Aged Pension for 40 years.)

Same thing in the United States. I think the law in the US might have changed recently but once a woman reaches 62 years old, man at 65 years old, they can apply for Social Security and Medicare. Anyone can apply regardless. The payout amount depends on the number of years you pay taxes to the US Federal government. There is a minimum payout for someone who never pay into the system but there is a cap payout for someone who pay into the system. For someone like myself who has been working for almost 30 years, I will get higher payout from social security if I wait until I turn 68 to apply instead of 65. I will get that amount, adjusting for Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA) until the day I die, subject to spouse survival. Things like that.
Social Security is sometime called the "social safety net" for people who need them the most but even wealthy people get social security check and medicare too. In other words, everyone in the US will get them.

The other common Retirement Income plan is called Superannuation. This works in a very similar manner to your 401K Scheme. People contribute to their Superannuation Fund for all of their working life. Most Funds are Accumulation Funds and the money can be invested into a range of Investment classes. Once the individual reaches a certain age, they can access the Superannuation savings either as a lump sum, or convert it into a Superannuation Retirement Stream which operates like a pension.

Very similar to 401K and other retirement like Individual Retirement Account (IRA). I have both 401K and IRA. This will be 80% of my retirement income if I want to have the same spending level in retirement as my current spending. Both my 401K and IRA are taking a beating at the moment :(

Does company in Australia match what you put into superannuation? If so, how much?

The scheme you initially mention in your post is called a Defined Benefits Retirement Scheme. These were very popular in Australia until the early 1990s. However, many companies phased them out as the Superannuation scheme became more popular. (There was a growing problem with unfunded liabilities similar to the issue you mention in your post.)

Exactly. Even my current company stopped providing pension for new employees three years ago for this very reason, Unfunded liabilities :(

The level of Retirement income each individual receives is primarily a function of how much money they are prepared to commit to their Superannuation over the decades. Obviously, the earlier they start contributing, the longer the investment time frame. The more money they contribute, the more it will grow. However, there has to be a balance because money in Superannuation is essentially locked away for decades and can only be accessed near to, at Retirement, or as a result of some other exceptional conditions mainly to do with health or severe financial hardship.

(As an aside, due to the Global pandemic, the Federal Government is allowing all Australian Citizens who are unemployed atm to access up to $20,000 from their Superannuation funds to cover their current expenses. This is an extraordinary step but many hundreds of thousands of Australians have taken up the opportunity to access those funds.)

Access the 401K or Superannuation is the worst thing you can do to your retirement future from a financial standpoint. The money in that account needs to be left alone so that they can grow. My company provides financial seminars to all employees twice a year and they emphasize over and over again that 401K/IRA account MUST BE LEFT ALONE.

Then again, we are in an extraordinary situation of a global pandemic, so I don't know. I am just grateful that I have enough emergency fund that will last me for two years even if I lose my job so I am very grateful for that.
 
Social Security is sometime called the "social safety net" for people who need them the most but even wealthy people get social security check and medicare too. In other words, everyone in the US will get them.

We are given the impression the USA "Safety Nets" are very poor in comparison to the Australian ones. Perhaps that is Australian Government propaganda?

Does company in Australia match what you put into superannuation? If so, how much?

OK. So this is a bit complicated. Superannuation has changed over the years here.

Prior to the early 1990s, Companies were free to implement any form of Employee Retirement schemes they desired or none at all. Some companies had Defined Benefit Schemes. (For many decades, the Public Service offered these schemes.). Some companies had private Superannuation schemes where Employers made contributions on sliding scales according to the contributions made by the employees. In the mid 1980s, I was in a such a scheme with 0-3, 2-4, 3-5 (Employee - Employee) options. In these cases, the company choose and controlled the Superannuation Fund. (Company appointed Trustees and Fund Managers)

In the early 1990s, the Australian Federal Government of the time passed legislation to introduce a Superannuation Guarantee (SG). This was a defined percentage that was applied to the employee's total Gross Salary. The calculated amount was paid by the Employer into a Superannuation Fund chosen by the Employer. The initial SG was 3%.
So if an employee earned $100,000 p.a., the Employer would contribute $3,000 p.a. into the employees Superannuation Account in the Superannuation Fund selected by the employer.

So at that point, every Employee started to receive Superannuation paid by the Employer. Employees were free to make either Pre Tax or Post Tax Contributions. Over time the Superannuation Industry was deregulated which led to the opportunity for Portable Superannuation. Employees were able to choose their own Superannuation Funds and direct their Employers to pay the SG into the Portable Fund. (Prior to date, an Employee who changed jobs would often end up with multiple Superannuation Fund Accounts paying multiple sets of Fees.)

Overtime the SG has grown from 3% to the current day 9.5%. It is scheduled to continue to grow to 12% by 2025. But the Coronavirus might throw a spanner in the works there.

Since the inception of the SG, it had been legislated that employees could proceed to access their Superannuation monies from 55yo. But over the years the laws changed. Access to Superannuation now works according to a sliding scale based on one's year of Birth. However, anyone can access their Superannuation once they turn 60yo.

The Superannuation scheme is a pretty good one. It's certainly added a lot of wealth to the country and reduced the pressure on the Aged Pension system which was its original goal.

Access the 401K or Superannuation is the worst thing you can do to your retirement future from a financial standpoint.

It really depends what age you are. And it depends how your money is invested. Many many people that were approaching Retirement just prior to the GFC crisis had a lot of their Superannuation in Balanced or Growth Funds. They got badly burned as a result of the GFC. Many lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in a very short period of time and never recovered that money prior to retiring. Some continued to work longer than they otherwise would have.

I am just grateful that I have enough emergency fund that will last me for two years even if I lose my job so I am very grateful for that.

Unfortunately, the average Australian holds an incredible amount of personal debt. For many Australians, "Lifestyle" is a priority over everything else. Many, many Australians, regardless of their income, live from week to week. Average Household Debt is in the order of two times Household income. Too many people here live well beyond their means because they are driven by "image" rather than "substance". Huge houses with huge mortgages, new cars every couple of years, eating out several nights a week, overseas holidays every year, seems to have become the norm for many over the past decade.

Financial institutions are happy to lend large amounts of money. House mortgages operate differently here. If the value of the secured asset drops well below the value of the loan, Banks can sell the house to recover their capital costs, and then continue to collect the outstanding debt from the borrower. The only way a Borrower can avoid repaying the debt is to declare "Bankruptcy". But doing so introduces serious problems for the Bankrupt person.

The one huge thing this virus situation has exposed is how little funds the average Australian puts aside for a rainy day. Australia will be repaying hundreds of billions of dollars of recently acquired debt for decades to come.

And sadly, those who lived frugal lives and saved their money are probably going to have to bail out those who spent like no tomorrow.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
Most CC and flagship Universities also hire a lot of adjuncts for STEM courses. There are a few of them at my work place teach at local community colleges in the evening. I think they are doing it for fun and not for the money because they are making over 250K/yr with their day jobs. One person at the company is teaches a Certified Information System Security Professional (CISSP) course at the CC and he is making like 400K/yr in his day job.
There are pros and cons for having professors teach courses as a side job. On the one hand students may be taught by a prof with a lot of real world experience who is working as a consultant as well as teaching classes. The bad news is many of these courses will be taught late afternoon or night. Not great-esp for jr and sr athletes to have to take major courses from 4:30-7:15pm or from 6-9pm after practice because it is the only time some key courses are scheduled. Hopefully they can have Chipotle delivered in between 2 night classes and get a quick shower before class. Doesnt help for athletes to have priority registration if key major courses are only offered one time or mainly offered at night to fill up classes with both young undergrads and working adults.
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame
There are pros and cons for having professors teach courses as a side job. On the one hand students may be taught by a prof with a lot of real world experience who is working as a consultant as well as teaching classes. The bad news is many of these courses will be taught late afternoon or night. Not great-esp for jr and sr athletes to have to take major courses from 4:30-7:15pm or from 6-9pm after practice because it is the only time some key courses are scheduled. Hopefully they can have Chipotle delivered in between 2 night classes and get a quick shower before class. Doesnt help for athletes to have priority registration if key major courses are only offered one time or mainly offered at night to fill up classes with both young undergrads and working adults.

That might have been true in the past but I think things are much different now. Most of the people who have jobs and teach at either CC or flagship universities can also teach during the day as well. They have credibility within the company that they can just teach courses during the daytime if they choose. The company actually encourages it. The company also looks at it as a recruiting tool to attract new talents.
 

bobleenov1963

Hall of Fame

https://www.latimes.com/sports/stor...s-programs-ncaa-economic-downturn-coronavirus

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/04/20/sports/ap-us-virus-outbreak-college-sports-cuts.html

I am totally onboard with this:

Former Big 12 Commissioner Dan Beebe has an even more radical idea: College athletics should be broken into spectator sports (ones that make money) and participation sports (ones that don't). Schools would provide athletic scholarships in spectator sports, but not in participation sports.
Participation sports then would not be subject to NCAA scholarship limits, would not require highly paid, full-time coaches and would play regional opponents, keeping costs down.

Schools should be giving spectator sports athletes lot of stipend and lot of academic supports. Partition sports athletes will have to pay for these services themselves. No more using FB and BB revenues to subsidize other "money losing" sports.
 

graycrait

Legend
So if the individual sport at each individual institution does not operate in the black then it becomes a participation sport? I used to know but I think there are darn few college sports programs that operate in the black. I suspect some/many/a few schools that reach March Madness are not profitable. Would profitable mean no use of student fees or endowment in the calculation? I would suspect that every sport at the nearby D1 uni would become a participation sport.
 

jcgatennismom

Hall of Fame
@bobleenov1963 @graycrait I have also read Dan Beebe's comments about participation and spectator sports in college. With no athletic scholarships, there would be very few internationals playing and only Americans playing for top academic or flagship in-state schools. NCAA surveys of nonrevenue sports reports athletes spend 30+ hours a week in athletic related activities (the 20 countable rules has a lot of limitations and exclusions). Why would athletes expend 30 hours/week for no athletic dollars unless for a top academic school (athletics as leverage to get in a selective school) or top 30 tennis schools where players believed working with the coach was worth paying to play? They could join a frat or get a PT job instead. Yes, students could still get merit/need scholarships, but if NCAA takes all the scholarships from NCAA D1 and D2, smart players might as well play D3 where they might be able to take fall off for a semester abroad (if those happen anymore...) and have more balance between social, academic, and sports life. Or players would play club instead of varsity at D1 in state schools. There are walk ons now at P5 schools but those are mostly in state players or players with wealthy parents. Some P5 teams who had relied on international players and were based in states with weak jr tennis would no longer be competitive at all.

There are a lot of public schools, esp MM and D2, where 95%+ students are in-state. If nonrevenue sports are changed to participation sports, those unis might be 99%+ in state with a few international basketball players. The student body at those unis would be negatively impacted by the lack of exposure to different cultures and be less prepared to work in a global marketplace. Yes in US cities and affluent suburbs, there is already cultural diversity, but there are colleges in rural America that benefit from drawing international and out-of-state athletes. International students do come to the US to study STEM majors, but they are mostly choosing unis in cities or wellknown unis that are already have a diverse population.

If coaches were poorly paid PT staff, what's the point of paying to play when one's skills wont improve? It would just be high school tennis 2.0. Also most American players enjoy playing with and hanging out with their international teammates Without scholarships and most players only being able to afford in-state, players would end up playing the same players they had played in regional/sectional juniors for years. Many would lose interest.

Luckily Beebe is a former not current conference commissioner. If unis switched to the participation model, they probably would lose all donations from nonrevenue sports alumni. I think it is more likely coaches will take a % cuts, # of matches may be cut, travel reduced, etc. Outside the selective schools that have waiting lists, unis need $ from nonrevenue athletes on partial scholarships who pay something towards tuition, R&B (if on campus). Change the sports model and D1 unis may not hit enrollment quotas. Here is an interesting article from Wake Forest AD-not sure if this one has been posted yet or not.

Currie explained that eliminating a program doesn’t always mean saving money. https://www.greensboro.com/z-no-dig...cle_8fe3207a-1c67-5fab-ad6e-a824e3c6ab06.html

“It also is interesting, though, because many of our sports … they’re partial scholarship sports,” he said. “Many of our sports and many of our student-athletes are either full payers themselves or they’re partial scholarship recipients. In fact, student-athletes at Wake Forest outside of the aid they receive, are paying about $10 million annually to the university for some or all of their tuition cost. Just dropping a sport doesn’t necessarily create a net revenue savings for a school.”
 
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