In 2011 Nadal was 11-2 vs Federer/Murray/Del Potro! His best year ever vs Elite

zagor said:
And if Fed won Wimbledon along with USO in 2008 it wouldn't have really mattered to me. Why? Because his tennis(in slams) sucked, not just compared to 2007 but compared to 2006, 2005 ,2004 and 2003.
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So what are your opinions about Federer's 2009 majors? No way did Federer play better in those 2009 majors he actually won compared to the same tournaments where he was runner-up the previous year. And are you aware that Federer didn't drop a set going into the 2008 Wimbledon final?
 
namelessone said:
No, he had better results overall(mostly in IW and Miami,lost the USO final as opposed to last year, not to mention the fact that he made WTF finals in 2010 in a tougher group than in 2011) by a tiny margin in 2011 but on HC he played better tennis in 2010 IMO.
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That he lost to past their prime Ljubicic and Roddick in IW+Miami in 2010 is very telling, even in 2008 he got crushed by baby Novak and Davydenko while in 2011 he pushed zoning Novak on his best surface(slow HC) to the brink.

AO he was sick and injured so we don't count that.

USO, in 2011 he did lose a set on the way to the final but that is down to the simple fact that he faced Murray in SF whome he never beat in straights in a HC slam. Regarding the USO final obviously Novak was no longer a baby and improved so much compared to last year.
 
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namelessone said:
Because with Nadal it carries over into slams, he is a confidence player.Federer can stay without a MS final for a long time and easily make SF/F in the next slam.

And pardon me for getting upset when the supposed CCGOAT is within 2 games of losing in straights to nr.150 in the world(or something like that).
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LOLLLLLLLL, is this a joke or just incredibly biased and stupid?
 
Mustard said:
So what are your opinions about Federer's 2009 majors? No way did Federer play better in those 2009 majors he actually won compared to the same tournaments where he was runner-up the previous year. And are you aware that Federer didn't drop a set going into the 2008 Wimbledon final?
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My opinion is simple.

Fed's peak years were 2004-2007.

Fed's prime years were 2003-2009.

I'm well aware that Fed didn't drop a set on the way to 2008 Wimbledon final (mostly due to Soderling completely choking when he was supposed to serve out a set) but then again Nadal in the year in which he supposedly played terrible massively declining tennis reached 7 finals in a row and overall a record number of slam+masters finals-8.
 
zagor said:
It doesn't work that way. Besides Nadal overall played better on grass and HC in 2011 compared to 2010.
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namelessone said:
No, he had better results overall(mostly in IW and Miami,lost the USO final as opposed to last year, not to mention the fact that he made WTF finals in 2010 in a tougher group than in 2011) by a tiny margin in 2011 but on HC he played better tennis in 2010 IMO.
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I'm not sure about this, not with his Canada, Cincy and WTF performances.
 
Eternity said:
I'm not sure about this, not with his Canada, Cincy and WTF performances.
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Having a lousy (for his standard) performance post USO is pretty regular for Nadal.

As a matter of fact, his 2009 season ending was particulary bad yet he had his most succesfull year ever next.

It is not an indication of overall form for him.
 
zagor said:
My opinion is simple.

Fed's peak years were 2004-2007.

Fed's prime years were 2003-2009.

I'm well aware that Fed didn't drop a set on the way to 2008 Wimbledon final (mostly due to Soderling completely choking when he was supposed to serve out a set) but then again Nadal in the year in which he supposedly played terrible massively declining tennis reached 7 finals in a row and overall a record number of slam+masters finals-8.
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Nadal's peak years were 2008-2010

Nadal's prime years were 2005-the present.
 
DjokovicForTheWin said:
LOLLLLLLLL, is this a joke or just incredibly biased and stupid?
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Look at the stats.

In the last couple of years, Fed made more slam finals than ms finals, despite the fact that there are twice as many opportunities in ms.

Nadal is a confidence player that needs momentum to build up then he goes on runs. Look at his history. Losses upon losses doesn't usually bode well for his GS form.
 
zagor said:
Having a lousy (for his standard) performance post USO is pretty regular for Nadal.

As a matter of fact, his 2009 season ending was particulary bad yet he had his most succesfull year ever next.

It is not an indication of overall form for him.
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I still expect better from him in Canada and Cincy (not post USO). I know he didn't do great in 2010 but he was quite bad in 2011 especially that Verdasco match.
 
namelessone said:
Look at the stats.

In the last couple of years, Fed made more slam finals than ms finals, despite the fact that there are twice as many opportunities in ms.

Nadal is a confidence player that needs momentum to build up then he goes on runs. Look at his history. Losses upon losses doesn't usually bode well for his GS form.
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I think you're making general inferences out of statistically meaningless sample sizes to fit your agenda.
 
zagor said:
That he lost to past their prime Ljubicic and Roddick in IW+Miami in 2010 is very telling
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Nadal is a confidence player, and at that time, he hadn't won a tournament since 2009 Rome, i.e. before Soderling shocked him at the 2009 French Open. Roddick's win in Miami was actually very smart tennis as well, being more aggressive and volleying more.

zagor said:
even in 2008 he got crushed by baby Novak
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What the heck? You mean a Djokovic who had just won the Australian Open for the loss of just 1 set, and was world number 3? LOL.

zagor said:
and Davydenko
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Davydenko is a good player and a bad matchup for Nadal on hardcourt.

zagor said:
while in 2011 he pushed zoning Novak on his best surface(slow HC) to the brink.
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What do you expect in a US Open final? For Nadal to give up or something?

zagor said:
AO he was sick and injured so we don't count that.
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It does count. Sick and injured equals tough luck. Nadal played and lost to Ferrer, and that's all the rankings recognise.

zagor said:
USO, in 2011 he did lose a set on the way to the final but that is down to the simple fact that he faced Murray in SF whome he never beat in straights in a HC slam. Regarding final obviously Novak was no longer a baby and improved so much compared to last year.
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I thought the 2010 US Open final was higher quality. Their serves were certainly a lot better. Watching both finals recently, though, I will say that what stands out are the differences in their body language and their movements. Nadal had the mental edge in 2010 and it showed. The reverse was true in 2011.
 
DjokovicForTheWin said:
LOL so all of a sudden Nadal is now a confidence player and Federer is not. LOLLLLLLLLL, these ****s pull things out of thin air. What a joke.
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LOL calling us ****s when this is something than even most Fed fans agree on. Nadal has periods in which he wins many titles(and slams) and then he doesn't win one for many months. Federer can make no HC finals in a year and still win USO, like in 2008. I don't see Rafa failing to win MC,Barca,Madrid,Rome and then winning RG.
 
namelessone said:
LOL calling us ****s when this is something than even most Fed fans agree on. Nadal has periods in which he wins many titles(and slams) and then he doesn't win one for many months. Federer can make no HC finals in a year and still win USO, like in 2008. I don't see Rafa failing to win MC,Barca,Madrid,Rome and then winning RG.
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Show me the poll proving that.
 
Mustard said:
Nadal is a confidence player, and at that time, he hadn't won a tournament since 2009 Rome, i.e. before Soderling shocked him at the 2009 French Open. Roddick's win in Miami was actually very smart tennis as well, being more aggressive and volleying more.
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Every proffesional athlete out there is a confidence player.


Mustard said:
What the heck? You mean a Djokovic who had just won the Australian Open for the loss of just 1 set, and was world number 3? LOL.
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Did he go on a 40+ streak of wins in 2008? Didn't think so, as I said baby Novak.

Mustard said:
Davydenko is a good player and a bad matchup for Nadal on hardcourt.
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You could say the same for Novak yet Nadal played him extremely hard in Miami final in comparison.



Mustard said:
What do you expect in a US Open final? For Nadal to give up or something?
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I said Novak's best surface which means slow HC not USO(medium-fast HC). Nadal pushed Novak to the brink in Miami final and played him hard in IW.



Mustard said:
It does count. Sick and injured equals tough luck. Nadal played and lost to Ferrer, and that's all the rankings recognise.
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It counts in assessing overall form?

Mustard said:
I thought the 2010 US Open final was higher quality. Their serves were certainly a lot better. Watching both finals recently, though, I will say that what stands out are the differences in their body language and their movements. Nadal had the mental edge in 2010 and it showed. The reverse was true in 2011.
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Novak was at a low in 2010 having zero wins over top 10 players for almost a whole year and as a result he lacked confidence and momentum.

In 2011 he was full of confidence after his amazing performances that year which was a crucial factor in the outcome of the final given that Novak is such a confidence/momentum player.
 
namelessone said:
Correct, with the exception of clay.

If this is still prime Nadal on clay(in 2011), with this crap game,then HOLY S**T, his decline on this surface will be VERY VERY BAD.
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Nadal's Davis Cup matches on clay in 2011 against Gasquet, Tsonga and Monaco, was close to peak Nadal on clay. What we can say is that 2011 was a wildly inconsistent year, performance wise, from Nadal, where he seldom settled into a good high quality level for a long length of time, even if results were more consistent overall.

zagor said:
In 2011 he was full of confidence after his amazing performances that year which was a crucial factor in the outcome of the final given that Novak is such a confidence/momentum player.
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Would you agree with the theory that had Nadal managed to win either the Indian Wells or Miami final last year, that 2011 would have turned out totally differently than what it did?
 
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Mustard said:
Nadal's Davis Cup matches on clay in 2011 against Gasquet, Tsonga and Monaco, was close to peak Nadal on clay. What we can say is that 2011 was a wildly inconsistent year, performance wise, from Nadal, where he seldom settled into a good high quality level for a long length of time, even if results were more consistent overall.
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Gasquet sucks against Rafa, Tsonga was throwing UE like crazy in that match(2 meters out or in the gut of the net) and Monaco was decent at most. These are people that Rafa should be beating on clay any day of the week.

Not to mention the fact that these matches were played on the slowest clay around, even slower that MC probably.
 
Mustard said:
Would you agree with the theory that had Nadal managed to win either the Indian Wells or Miami final last year, that 2011 would have turned out totally differently than what it did?
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I agree with this theory. IW-Miami for me decided the outcome for the 2011 season.
 
Mustard said:
Would you agree with the theory that had Nadal managed to win either the Indian Wells or Miami final last year, that 2011 would have turned out totally differently than what it did?
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Joking aside I honestly don't know, it's a bit similar to so many people claiming Rome 2006 as a deciding point in Fedal CC rivalry.

Miami final did feel like a turning moment because Novak outlasted Nadal physically(there was that moment in the final tiebreak where Nadal bended and looked tired, that might have gotten into Nadal's head as he was the undisputed king in that department until 2011) and beat him in a thriller(match that went the distance) while as a rule all matches of that kind have went Nadal's way until 2011 IW and Miami.

However I feel Nadal did a good job in putting all those losses behind him mentally when they faced off in a Wimbledon final and started the match very strong. When he lost that 1st set while serving so amazingly well I think all he got dishearted a bit and all those lossess came back at an instant.

At USO final, Nadal looked like Fed when he played him at AO in 2009, get a lead then waste it each time, only play great tennis when behind, disappear in the last set etc. in contrast Novak was firmly believing he should win during the whole match, even when he started serving like crap in the 4th set.
 
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MichaelNadal said:
Especially had Nadal won both. As he really should have.
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Had that happened, Nadal would have retained a solid mental edge, maybe even improved upon it. Djokovic's unbeaten record would have been over at 19 matches, so no aura built. The mental side is so vital in tennis. Djokovic is seen to be fitter than Nadal in Miami after going into the trenches with him, and Djokovic suddenly believes he should beat Nadal every time, while Nadal was suddenly really doubting whether he still has the edge in those intangibles, and as we saw, he didn't have the edge anymore for the rest of the year.
 
DjokovicForTheWin said:
It was irrelevant what happened at IW and Miami. Djoker still would have destroyed Nadal in every slam they met.
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Why on earth do you say that? Are you not aware of momentum and psychological advantages? If the Miami tie-breaker in the 3rd set went to Nadal, you have no idea what that could have led to. You can't be so naive.
 
Mustard said:
So according to you, there was no process whereby Nadal's edge over Djokovic turned into its opposite? It just happened as if by magic?
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There wasn't a single tournament in 2011 in which Nadal played better than Djokovic, that includes the French Open, Nadal wouldn't've maintaned the mental advantage over Novak no matter where or how well he played.
 
Mustard said:
So according to you, there was no process whereby Nadal's edge over Djokovic turned into its opposite? It just happened as if by magic?
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Djoker's tennis improved a lot. It wasn't all about confidence. He was hitting all of his strokes with much more authority. Bottom line it was Djoker's tennis that did the talking.
 
Mustard said:
So according to you, there was no process whereby Nadal's edge over Djokovic turned into its opposite? It just happened as if by magic?
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No mental advantage can overturn such a difference in actual tennis ability.

Once Nole got over the mental DISadvantage (from the previous years) after the first couple of meetings of 2011, the gap grew larger and larger until eventually ralph became joker's lapdog. Thus representing the actual chasm in tennis ability.
 
nadalwon2012 said:
In 2011, Nadal was....

3-1 vs Federer (including Roland Garros final)
4-1 vs Murray (including Roland Garros, Wimbledon, US Open)
3-0 vs Del Potro (including Davis Cup final)

I never thought I would see Nadal dominate these 3 guys like this all at the same time. The gap has never been wider between Nadal and this pack of Elite.
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0-6 against Djokovic...here we go again :) this is the ultimate failthread!
 
Mustard said:
Had that happened, Nadal would have retained a solid mental edge, maybe even improved upon it. Djokovic's unbeaten record would have been over at 19 matches, so no aura built. The mental side is so vital in tennis. Djokovic is seen to be fitter than Nadal in Miami after going into the trenches with him, and Djokovic suddenly believes he should beat Nadal every time, while Nadal was suddenly really doubting whether he still has the edge in those intangibles, and as we saw, he didn't have the edge anymore for the rest of the year.
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Spot on. You know how nervous Novak would have been in Madrid and Rome? Thinking man, he just beat me twice on HC, it' going to be harder on clay? He still would have never beaten Rafa in a final going into the clay season. But by Madrid, the mental tide had turned and Rafa was desperate not to lose, as oppose to desperate to win. Novak was on a HUGE roll by that point too.
 
nadalwon2012 said:
Why on earth do you say that? Are you not aware of momentum and psychological advantages? If the Miami tie-breaker in the 3rd set went to Nadal, you have no idea what that could have led to. You can't be so naive.
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Sure I'm aware of those things. But they had a minimum role in the Nadal Djoker matchup since Djoker is a superior tennis player on all counts.
 
tennis_pro said:
0-6 against Djokovic...here we go again :) this is the ultimate failthread!
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And you've just failed the tennis IQ test. When you play events do you focus on the potential final opponent before you focus on winning your half of the draw? Nadal focuses on his half, as any legit player would. Djokovic must beat Murray or Federer in the semi. Djokovic failed to at Roland Garros. Nadal must beat Murray or Federer in the semi. Nadal achieved this at Roland Garros.

What if Nadal had been thinking about Djokovic and didn't have his mind on the job vs Murray? Then Nadal would not have won 2011 Roland Garros.

Nadal needs to maintain his psychological stranglehold over Murray and Federer in slams. Only then will he have a chance of winning slams (and Djokovic must also maintain a stranglehold over Federer/Murray).
 
DjokovicForTheWin said:
Sure I'm aware of those things. But they had a minimum role in the Nadal Djoker matchup since Djoker is a superior tennis player on all counts.
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Quite the opposite. The 4th set at Wimbledon was close for 6 games, with each player breaking each others serve once. Djokovic got a late break however and won. That is one break the difference to decide the 4th set at Wimbledon. That difference all started at Indian Wells/Miami.
 
nadalwon2012 said:
Quite the opposite. The 4th set at Wimbledon was close for 6 games, with each player breaking each others serve once. Djokovic got a late break however and won. That is one break the difference to decide the 4th set at Wimbledon. That difference all started at Indian Wells/Miami.
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Exactly. Only the 4th set was close. Rest of it was easy for Djoker. Djoker is superior tennis player.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Spot on. You know how nervous Novak would have been in Madrid and Rome? Thinking man, he just beat me twice on HC, it' going to be harder on clay? He still would have never beaten Rafa in a final going into the clay season. But by Madrid, the mental tide had turned and Rafa was desperate not to lose, as oppose to desperate to win. Novak was on a HUGE roll by that point too.
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Bjorn Borg once said something that sums it up "If you fear to lose, you daren't win".
 
namelessone said:
LOL calling us ****s when this is something than even most Fed fans agree on. Nadal has periods in which he wins many titles(and slams) and then he doesn't win one for many months. Federer can make no HC finals in a year and still win USO, like in 2008. I don't see Rafa failing to win MC,Barca,Madrid,Rome and then winning RG.
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Well he failed to win Rome and Madrid last year. I know he had won a couple of titles, but that was a big setback for him and he still won RG. Also if Nadal actually manages to not win one single title out of Barca, MC, Rome and Madrid, then his game is either very very poor, or someone owns him totally - in which case losing RG would be no surprise - nothing to do with momentum. And even if he HAD lost MC to Novak as well, I think he'd still have beaten Federer in the final. Fed'd demons would outweigh his.

If he needed momentum going into even a clay event (in order to win it) how would he ever win MC unless he had just won a title? plenty of times he's started winning at MC. In 2010 he hadn't won a title in 11 months, no momentum whatsoever, yet he still won MC so easily it was laughable. So he doesn't need momentu to win on clay. The truth is, he's not a consistant winner of HC titles, so when it gets to HC he can go months without winning a title.
 
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The fact that Nadal couldn't even win ONE set on CLAY against Novak removed all doubts atleast in my mind that Novak is simply a superior player to Nadal.
 
kishnabe said:
Djokovic....but never count out Nadal. Nadal can at least win one match against Djokovic on clay per a year still.
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Of course logic dictates that history, not just recent history, should be accounted for when making a rational perdiction. But, you can't expect that from some individuals.
 
monfed said:
That's what makes it even more shocking don't you think? This is Nadal on clay we're talking about,mister.
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Yea, the 'Nadal of 2011' on clay who nearly got taken out by Isner at the French and really did not deserve to win the French last year.

Note to the oblivious: Nadal just wasn't as good last year even on clay!
 
DRII said:
Of course logic dictates that history, not just recent history, should be accounted for when making a rational perdiction. But, you can't expect that from some individuals.
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I see, so you would indeed pick Hrbarty over Nadal if they play today. Interesting 'logic'.
 
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