In/Out Device

Discussion in 'Other Equipment' started by Gut4Tennis, Mar 2, 2017.

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  1. pnw_hardcourt

    pnw_hardcourt Rookie

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    Ya well your options are lights only, or nothing at all. I wanted light, but only for out.

    There is a seperate sound setting too but it doesn't affect the calls.
     
  2. amalguy

    amalguy New User

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    Yes It's 5GHz on canal 165 with protocol 802.11a. I had a lot of issues with this settings. The results of HotSpot access for me are :
    • Always OK :
      • Laptop Asus ZenBook UX31A
    • Worked Once :
      • Nexus 5 donwgraded to android 4.4.4 (version before the 5Ghz SW bug): Work once, after first boot but not anymore. Perhaps also a HW limited design.
    • Always KO :
      • Nexus 5 - Android 6.0 : Since Android 5, a bug prevents access to 5Ghz
      • Nexus 7 - Android 5 (logic because this tablet is only 2.4Ghz)
      • MacBook pro (end 2013) : It should work. But could'nt find how to use 5Ghz band (perhaps only with airport borne ?)
    I supposed that it's the channel 165 designed for US and China that is the problem because I'm in France.
    I create a ticket for this issue in the HelpDesk. Gregoire answers to me that we could change the channel in the next beta build.
    But now I'm not sure that the channel is the problem for me and for a lot of other situations (like my nexus 7 restricted to 2.4Ghz),
    the problem is the band not the channel.
    I guess that the use of the 5Ghz is to prevent interferences with around wifi (in majority in 2.4Ghz) and to have more speed for streaming than the usual 802.11b/2.4Ghz.
    But 802.11n/5Ghz would be better. Perhaps HW limitations of the device design or compromise on other stuff.
    It would have been more convenient to communicate with the device via USB for data transfers.
    I will continue this subject on my ticket to have more real feedback from Gregoire.
    By the way, I created 3 tickets and Gregoire is very reactive. Good point.
     
  3. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    Well, that explains everything. I noticed the best method of upgrade in the help page has been changed to SD card from PC. Maybe that’s why.
     
  4. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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    It is advertised as a beta product. It even carries a pre 1.0 software version indicating a beta. It is clear on the website that it has limited functionality.

    I am not sure why your statement is necessary.
     
  5. CarterStC

    CarterStC New User

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    Apparently without warranty either - the developer will not respond to my requests for a repair/replacement of the device that fell apart the first night I used it. I shipped it back with RMA and he received it last week.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  6. CarterStC

    CarterStC New User

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    [Duplicate removed]
     
  7. stone101

    stone101 New User

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    It doesn't even sound like it's a beta product. From the various reports, the device doesn't even seem to work properly given that it regularly misses calls, makes random ones and/or fails to spot balls that are 3ft long. The video quality is also shocking. I'm all for people innovating, but this just isn't an acceptable level of quality.

    If I had bought one of these, I'd be wanting a refund as the device doesn't do what's claimed. And if he isn't willing to respond, I'd be suing him for the return of my money.
     
  8. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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    So he sent an RMA? He received it last week and hopefully is doing an evaluation. Sounds the same as warranty repairs I have done with The North Face, Mountain Hardware, Shimano and other big companies.
     
  9. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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    That is exactly what a Beta release is. See many AAA video game releases, Tesla new hardware release, Apple OS releases and many others.
     
  10. stone101

    stone101 New User

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    Like I said, this doesn't even sound like a beta release. AAA video games, you can play perfectly well bar the odd graphical glitch which is often resolved with simple patch. Tesla cars you can drive perfectly well too. This device doesn't seem like it works to any acceptable degree.
     
  11. pnw_hardcourt

    pnw_hardcourt Rookie

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    You could classify it as an alpha release then if you really want a proper label. It's not really surprising though that there are "showstopper" bugs though considering this product's timeline/origin. We'll see how it progresses.
     
  12. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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    Video Game massive issues:. http://www.pcgamer.com/the-worst-pc-game-launches/

    The device calls most shots accurately. The issues seen can be corrected. Give it some time. This may never work well but it could also be a great tool. Let's not kill it off with negativity. If everyone was that harsh, nothing new would ever get off the ground.
     
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  13. stone101

    stone101 New User

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    There have been hundreds of thousands of video games released. It's a only handful of them that have noticeable problems. Your link even refers to stuff from 2004! An overloaded server because thousands of people trying to go online at once is hardly a big deal. You just get more servers and create extra capacity. The games themselves eg. Half-Life, WoW etc worked perfectly fine.

    This device on the other hand, doesn't even seem to fulfil its basic purpose of properly detecting balls and accurately calling lines. It would be like buying a Tesla (since you made reference to it) where the steering wheel only works 80% of the time and it starts zig zagging down the road when it's driven at night.
     
  14. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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  15. mike84

    mike84 Professional

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    I don't find the early reviews about the device encouraging so far.

    Yes its beta but in place like California you couldn't find local tennis club and offer the devices for members there to test to work out kinks in the device itself and software.

    Heck people on this forum would test/demo for in/out.

    The device sounds so promising.
     
  16. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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    Hand out pre production electronic devices to random tennis playing people with money in the heart of Silicon Valley. I am not sure that is a good business strategy.

    Google Early Adopter. You are not one, some of us here are for this product.
     
  17. stone101

    stone101 New User

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    It's an even worse business strategy to release a product that doesn't work properly and destroy your reputation and credibility as well as alienating the customers who initially supported you by shelling out $200 for it.
     
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  18. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    I agree on the broader point of engaging more people in early demo to work kinks out.in my mind it outweighs any potential early negative feedback . It will help in proper expectation setting.

    There’s so much variation across different tennis courts and it’s impossible to cater for those scenarios without a community engagement.

    I don’t know if he has or hasn’t engaged other people. It’s possible he might have engaged limited participation.

    Being a one man army makes it harder .
     
  19. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    Ah doing a 180 by playing the "critical" guy now!

    :D
     
  20. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    Let me guess, you were critical from the beginning?

    :D
     
  21. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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    This is the way Silicon Valley does business now. Have you used any of the tennis gadgets? They are all buggy. I imagine there is a revenue trade off to be made there. At some point, you need income.

    I think this has the greatest potential of all tennis aids out there. It has also been out about a week and is recognized as beta. Damn straight I am cheerleading. I want this given a chance, as early adopters do. I hate to see late adopters crush this with negativity.

    If we still see issues in 6 months, I will be harsher with criticism. I have no financial or other stake in this. I have never even met the guy. I do have a background in implementing software so I have a decent understanding of unforeseen consequences and user issues. It is hard and expensive to test well. And even then, you miss things.
     
  22. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    Not that I need to explain but i also don’t want inaccurate information floating around.

    I don’t get any kickbacks. Got attracted to the tech and concept and bought the device like rest of us. Never interacted with the inventor. And of course, I’m not stupid. :)

    I never actively promoted or asked people to buy the device as that’s a personal decision . I do support innovations such as this and willing to work through growing pains. I backed many kickstarter projects— some successful, some went down the drain.
     
  23. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    Me too, but what you think is not the issue here.

    The issue is that what is promised cannot, at this time, be achieved with $200 hardware, whatever software yada yada AI bells and whistles are added. In short, it's a hardware problem not a software problem.

    The inventor would have been wise to deliver a $2000 - $3000 device with better hardware targeted for the wealthier clubs instead of a low end device for individuals, then build up the product's name and reputation and, when the hardware eventually catches up, deliver a low end product.

    :D
     
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  24. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    Depends on what one is looking for. I’m not interested in line calling. I’m interested in stats. They don’t need to be super accurate. I’m looking for consistency even if it's software extrapolation. If it misses a few shots I’m ok with that. If it misses 40-50% then it wouldn't work for me.
     
  25. stone101

    stone101 New User

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    If the device actually worked properly, I'd be cheerleading as well. However, it's clear from multiple different users that that doesn't seem to be the case.

    The software I suspect is only half the issue - it can only ever be as good as the quality of the data that is pulled in by the hardware (and even then you suggest that it's going to be buggy anyway). There's good reason why Playsight uses 6 expensive, high quality cameras positioned above the court, costs $10,000 to buy and $750 in monthly maintenance. This on the other hand appears to use a low quality camera in a position that is less than ideal and struggles in different weather and lighting conditions.

    It wouldn't be so bad had the device been marketed as a prototype, may not work properly, and that customers are going to be used as development mules. If that had been the case, customers would have parted with their money based on more realistic expectations. However, that doesn't seem to be the case and instead this device has been sold with claims such as "99% accurate", "100% trustworthy", and "better than your eye!" which clearly isn't the case based on user reports.
     
  26. stone101

    stone101 New User

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    Indeed. If you produce a device like this, you need to ensure it works properly otherwise your reputation and credibility goes up in smoke along with customer goodwill and potential future sales.

    Interestingly, I saw on his website that the device is not currently available to purchase. I wonder whether he relies on pre-sales to fund the cost of manufacturing or he has simply gone back to the drawing board? If the device was working as it should, I would have thought that it would drive further sales, and thus he would be increasing manufacturing...
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  27. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    From what he indicated, he would put it back on sale with a price increase.
    Of course, that depends on success and good feedback from early adopters, which isn't given by any means.

    I don't know how many devices were ordered but I would rather fail fast and learn with a few tens of devices in the field than Shipping hundreds of devices and deal with feedback and enhancements. In other words, demo with a subset of users from various scenarios before going big.
     
  28. CarterStC

    CarterStC New User

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    Yes, but they communicate with their customers. He has ignored multiple requests for update and hasn't communicated back since providing the RMA.

    I paid early to get a device, he sent me a defective one, and now I have nothing and he has my money. I have no idea how or when he intends to deliver me what I paid for, but people later in the queue are being served above me. Some are even playing tennis with the guy while my issue is unresolved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  29. TennisJC

    TennisJC New User

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    The belt strap it comes with doesn't work on my net posts.
    So I came up with a better way - Joby Magnetic Tripod ~$12: http://amzn.to/2zL94TB
    The center 1/4" thread is recessed about 7mm so you may want to also get an attachment.

    Here's how my setup looks (with grip tape to support):
    [​IMG]
    I also have a monopod that can extend 4+ feet so I may try to get it higher to see if it results in better line calls.

    1st Review:
    The Phone App (in mirror mode) worked much better than the touchscreen on the camera.

    I could see this being a useful tool for a coach to track 2 single players' stats, shot selection and provide feedback.
    They claim that it can track the ball speed and spin RPM's - so I'm hoping that better software will make this $200 gamble worth it...

    Any improvements for stats would work better than just for making line calls (which was only about 30% accurate for my initial testing using the beta firmware).
    Once it got about 2 hours past sunset though, even with great lights, it seemed to *lose* the ball
     
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  30. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    What kind of balls was it having the most trouble with?
     
  31. TennisJC

    TennisJC New User

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    It missed a few baseline calls that were clearly out...around 1/3?
    I would estimate about 80-90% of all the rally balls registered (in or out)

    We both wore all black and made sure we stayed behind the baseline for the tests.
    It is possible that if you cast a shadow or partially block the sight lines, it may miss a mark.
    When calibrating, you had to make sure all corners are in clear view - did it a few times each session.
     
  32. CarterStC

    CarterStC New User

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    I finally got contacted about my return today. Seems they are ordering new boxes so they don't get damaged in shipping, says that it will be shipped to me later this week.
     
  33. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    Do we have to calibrate few times each session? Ie we should stop playing, walk to the net and then do the calibration?
     
  34. beanie

    beanie New User

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    I have used In/Out for total of 5 hours over 3 sessions. So far, my 3rd & best experience... after hours of figuring out the green lines and white lines.

    I mounted In/Out on a tripod and placed it next to net post. I set the tripod a little taller than net post and tilted In/Out a bit downwards to better find the court. I performed "Find Court". After court was found, I checked the alignment of the green lines and white lines. If not satisfied, I adjusted and/or moved tripod and "Find Court" again. When done, I opened the In/Out app on my smartphone to screen-mirror control In/Out. I didn't touch In/Out until I finished my hitting session.

    I think putting In/Out on a steady mount makes sense; expensive hawkeye cams don't get knocked or swayed and neither should In/Out. Net post is not a good mounting location; netted balls may knock and move In/Out and ruin the accuracy.

    "Find Court" / LINE DETECTION
    I experienced court detection failure when the cams are tilted upwards a bit too much. The image should show more court space than surroundings and skies.
    Where are the (neon) green lines? To display the green lines: After tennis court is found, In/Out will show "Court Found / Press Line Calling" box / overlay. Tap anywhere OUTSIDE of the "Court Found / Press Line Calling" box and the green lines on court will be shown.
    I had to perform "Find Court" multiple times, esp. under dimmer conditions. Sometimes, lines were not detected, e.g. near-side service line & its adjacent sidelines. Sometimes, some green lines did not align with the white lines.

    The green lines must align with the white lines. If not, In/Out will not make accurate line calls. After a good detection (where all or most of the green & white lines are well aligned), avoid touching or moving In/Out. Use smartphone app to control In/Out; proceed to the Line Calling screen.

    DETECTION OF NEAR-SIDE NET SIDELINES
    The near-side net sidelines tend to be detected as curved lines upwards & towards the net and misaligned with the white lines; sometimes more like doodling and totally didn't align with the white court lines. A tripod may help to detect these lines better.

    LINE CALLING
    To make line calls, go to the Line Calling screen. In/out will not perform line calling at the home screen or other screens. It happens to me because I make changes in settings and then I forget to go back to Line Calling screen. *duh*

    LINE CALLING SCREEN
    The Line Calling screen has Home, Previous, Next buttons at the top and a plan view of a tennis court. Shot placements are shown here; yellow dots for "in" and black dots for "out". The last 10 shots are recorded & displayed. Use the Previous and Next buttons to move the circle cursor and select the desired shot to review its video playback. Video playback seems to be in greyscale. Video playback shows a circle around the ball.

    Do not be hasty with the Home button. Tapping on the Home button will erase all the shots and clear the court. I often forget; after reviewing one shot, I hastily go to Home screen to make changes in the settings and then realize I haven't seen the other shots yet.

    Sometimes, there is one or two black dots "out" calls within the lines of the tennis court. This means the green & white lines have become misaligned, i.e. In/Out has moved and needs to "Find Court" again.

    LINE CALLING OF OTHER OBJECTS
    In/out sometimes makes calls on other objects - rackets, shoes, clothing.
    One "out" call showed a circle on my thigh in navy blue sweat pants; no ball in the playback.
    Another "out" call showed an "in" ball bouncing towards me but my white shoe was circled near the outside of the baseline.

    Yes, In/Out is a fashionista. For now, avoid wearing or using the non-ball items that it has called.

    LIGHTING
    My first time was under cloudy, dim & dreary condition - not ideal. As the sun set, In/Out stopped calling anything beyond the service line on one side of the court. My second time was under sunny condition and also during sunset, I had to adjust between normal & intense lighting when In/Out stopped calling on one side of the court. My third time was partly sunny, mid-afternoon and I had no problems.

    In/Out is sensitive to lighting. Is auto-detect lighting possible?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  35. beltsman

    beltsman Hall of Fame

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    Interesting. So it has to have a completely stable mount to be accurate? That is, if it gets bumped by a mm by a ball, it's off?
     
  36. beanie

    beanie New User

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    1 mm shift between the green lines and white lines should magnify to larger distance on the court.
     
  37. stone101

    stone101 New User

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    Is this the same guy?



    Has anyone seen any of his previous products sell successfully?
     
  38. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    Now we see a good report to some extent. It all makes sense.
     
  39. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    I got mine update via an SD card. Still don't see a wifi connection on my devices. I'll be able to use it in a few days anyway.
     
  40. pnw_hardcourt

    pnw_hardcourt Rookie

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    I'm mostly questioning why @newpball and @stone101 are so appalled with this guy and his invention lol

    Did either of you buy it? Why are you complaining more than the rest of us? You're just so knowledgeable you know exactly how venture startups should go, you're like shark tank investors!
     
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  41. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    I might answer that you are wrong in your questioning.

    I am merely commenting on the "fools rush in" and the "I use $200 to wipe my butt" mentality expressed by some members.

    :D
     
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  42. stone101

    stone101 New User

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    It's less to do with being appalled, but everything to do with whether the device actually works as claimed. You don't buy a TV for example that only shows a picture about 6o% of the time, or a smartphone that doesn't function at night, or a watch that only tells the time some of the time but not all of the time.

    When you sell the device with claims such as "99% accurate", "100% trustworthy", and "better than your eye!", it had better well work properly when you get it. Unfortunately, that simply doesn't seem to be the case based on numerous user reports including yours.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  43. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    @beanie. How high can you go with the tripod? (Am assuming you tried different heights). Interesting approach you're taking, hope it leads to good improvements.
     
  44. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    @beanie welcome to the boards and phenomenal write up. The tripod is another thing to lug to the courts - but many of us do it to video our strokes sometimes so not a problem.

    Someone above mentioned the ‘one man army’ above - very valid concern. Some of the build quality/breakage issues could be supply chain or packing/shipping issues. The inventor should be busy working on the software, not dealing with this stuff.

    Some of you should just ignore the negative comments. But on the other side some of the cheerleading is over the top too. This is going to be a long journey and may never achieve the goals/promises originally made.
     
  45. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    I agree. Being a one man army, while maybe satisfying, is very hard to manage and satisfy a large consumer base.

    Tripod is not a big deal for most of us and There’s light weight options available and we may not need it once we figure out optimal placement.

    All feedback is good feedback given the newness of the device. A little extra support and cheerleading probably helps inventors to work even harder and come up with new stuff. That support is better than support for my fav player as goat.
     
  46. beltsman

    beltsman Hall of Fame

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    Autodetect lighting is a must. It has to adjust exposure.
     
  47. beanie

    beanie New User

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    I don't have the right screw for In/Out's mounting screw-hole (too big), so I simply used a rubber band to tie In/Out L-plate to the vertical pole of the tripod. Tilting or up-down swivel was very limited.

    The big lesson of my 3rd session is court recognition. In/Out seems to accept a certain type of court image - I don't know yet the key parts or pictures that it wants - for now, I can only say more court, less of other scenes. I don't know if top-down views of courts are acceptable - I hope so! For my next session, I'll get the parts or another tripod for a more proper mount and try again.

    Initially, I tied In/Out about 6 inches higher than net post and placed the tripod about 1 foot away from net post. The cams' images showed about 50% court and 50% surroundings & blue sky. I could see all the court lines in the image but In/Out couldn't find the court at all. I moved to another court and totally failed there, too. After multiple failures, In/Out eventually showed a "Report" button (icon of "!" in a triangle). When I tapped on it, In/Out showed red lines doodled all over the court image. I saw instances of squiggly lines and zig-zag lines.

    Next, I lowered & tied In/Out to the same height as net post and it still failed totally. (I had the same problem in my 2nd session with In/Out mounted on net post but it somehow found the court and I didn't troubleshoot it.) Then I accidentally nudged down the L-plate during another "Find Court" attempt and it found the court. Because I spent about 30 minutes figuring this out and I had a hitting partner waiting, I only re-did "Find Court" twice more at net post height and proceeded to hit.
     
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  48. pnw_hardcourt

    pnw_hardcourt Rookie

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    Improvements in finding the court / calibration are going to go a long way in the accuracy it seems. Which is good because this is a software problem.
     
  49. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    I finally got the device. Hopefully I get to try it out this weekend. I will be able to provide hands on experience and my views.

    should I use tripod or stay with Net posts?
     
  50. CarterStC

    CarterStC New User

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    I'd use a tripod for now. My device suffered whenever there was a net cord hit - so badly that one of the cameras fell out - detached from the mainboard. You can see in my videos, ball hits tape, video disrupted; sometimes, so badly that I'd get the same image recorded for both sides of the court. Another let cord hit and it would switch back to working properly. Sometimes, it would result in frozen video until it was hit again. The end-result was a broken device and RMA. So, if hitting the net can jar the device enough to damage it, imagine what it does to the calibration!

    My buddy did find that he had to tilt the device down to get it to detect the courts.
     
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