In/Out Device

Discussion in 'Other Equipment' started by Gut4Tennis, Mar 2, 2017.

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  1. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

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    Like the racket sensors, this gives more information. There is a reason that most colleges are expected to have automated (not HAWKEYE) line calling in the next 5-10 years, and that they play lets on serves... because there is a lot of bad calling going on. Even if this is 2-3x worse than advertised (25mm x3= 75mm, it is accurate to within 3 inches. Given that the tennis lines are 50mm, for me this is a reasonable margin as long as it is unbiased and all parties agree to use. No system is perfect, and the most advanced system in the world that has been trained with top 100 pros for example, probably isn't as accurate with nadal's or sock's crazy spin. Do they protest that Hawkeye is not as good or accurate for them? No.

    With regard to the stats. They are helpful, this is the year 2017. We are tracking more and more stats in all sports and using them to help identify where problems and strength really are. Do I truly believe my Zepp sensor estimated max serve speeds (135-139mph)? No, but it gives me a scale to compare against myself and something that I can work on. Just like the literal scale in my house, it is not as accurate as calibrated physician scale, but it close and it is consistent to itself so I can see how I am doing.

    I am not going to change anyone's opinion on this, and hope it works reasonable well. Will it be perfect, no. Will it be good or ok? maybe? Will the next generation be much better- absolutely. But the newer "good systems" like playsight use far fewer cameras than Hawkeye does, and the costs/technology are changing exponentially.

    I do wonder if Racket King et al only use land lines/flip phones.
     
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  2. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    You've just shown that you don't know how to call lines. It's not the *entire* width of the line that's relevant, it's whether the ball touches *any* part of the line. No wonder you and other 3.0s/3.5s etc yearn for a line calling device so badly - you don't even understand the basic rules of tennis and the margins of error you're prepared to put up with are nothing short of ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  3. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

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    The point is that we are arguing about margins of error thinner than the width of the line... not that I don't understand the rules. It was a reference point, maybe I didn't make it clear.

    Not sure why I am responding, so I will stop
     
  4. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    Are you serious? Did he say the ball should touch the entire line? Why do you make up something out of nowhere?
     
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  5. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    As if human players don't produce errors due to different lighting conditions, people moving around the court, and have a margin of error 8-9 times worse than Hawk Eye in addition to being biased
     
  6. kimguroo

    kimguroo Hall of Fame

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    go to court with tennis ball and measurement tape.
    place the ball 1" outside of edge of line.
    I've done it before and my reaction was wow. that's extremely noticeable. if I get those call for "in", I will be furious in real matches.
    it can be used for fun with friends or social matches but not for real matches unless opponent is extremely nice person and interested in this device.
    the best thing might be both players agree with margin of errors and agree to overrule questionable calls by the device then it can be used in real matches but there is a possibility that entire match might be about "line calls".

    it's a good concept but not sure how this $200 device will handle in real tennis games.
    Also very tough to produce products on schedules especially budget is tight. seems like it's one man show which makes more difficult to quality controls.
    good thing is he said he will inspect every individual single device before the shipping so it's a positive thing. probably the first batch might be really small quantities so he can test all devices.

    in my opinion, sensor technologies are dead at this point and this device might be the last device which will test tennis gadget market. if it fails, we won't see any sensor technology for a while.
     
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  7. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    The rule is that you can't call it unless you are absolutely sure. Not pretty sure, not mostly sure, not possibly sure, not "I didn't really see it but I'm going to call it out anyway because that's what my clueless buddies do". The rule is that the opponent *always* gets the benefit of any doubt when it comes to the call. The bias and errors that you talk about it are from people who don't understand the rules or who are blatant cheaters - that occurs predominately at lower levels and in junior competition.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  8. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    If you don't see the value in a device like this, don't buy it. I don't know why you feel the need to berate people who are interested
     
  9. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    I'm not berating anyone - I'm simply suggesting that their yearning for this device is probably to due to the fact that they (and the people they play with) don't know how to call lines properly.
     
  10. beltsman

    beltsman Hall of Fame

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    That's just stupid. More like we are interested because our opponents don't call lines properly.
     
  11. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    You'd think a device designed to call the lines automatically is targeted towards players who feel they or the players with whom they play have issues with line calls, no?
     
  12. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    Your opponents probably say the same about you. Buying an unproven gadget like this with its high margin of error isn't going to help. It's bizarre that the 3.0, 3.5 and the other 'All the Gear and No Idea' brigade are rushing out for a device like this when their priorities should be on other things.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  13. r2473

    r2473 G.O.A.T.

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    No, you don't understand. The overarching "rule" in tennis or any competitive activity (from business, to daily commuting) is WIN. In a sense, nobody really cares how as the "ends justify the means" with most people and the winners stay while the loser go home.

    The only time you give your opponent the benefit of the doubt is when the point really doesn't matter. But if the point has a material effect on who WINS, you can be sure what call your opponent is going to make in most cases.

    Ya, right. What fairly tale land do you reside in? It happens at ALL levels.
     
  14. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    Not by cheating.

    I've played at every level of tennis from HS, through College, 4.5/5.0 USTA and ITF. I can count on one hand the number of opponents that I would consider to be blatant cheaters.
     
  15. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    For what it's worth I'm waiting for independent reviews of this thing before I sink any money into it, but I can see its appeal. And it's hilarious how you think there are no bad line calls at every level of the game
     
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  16. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    Of course there are bad line calls. What I'm saying is that the vast majority of the nonsense goes on at the lower levels of the game (frustrated wannabes with glass hearts) and in junior competition (blame the pushy 'win at all costs' parents who have spent a ton of money their kid).
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  17. jm1980

    jm1980 G.O.A.T.

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    That's partially because the vast majority of players are juniors or at the lower levels of the game

    In an area with 2000 3.0s and 100 5.0s you only need 5 bad line callers at 5.0 for it to be equivalent to 100 3.0s
     
  18. r2473

    r2473 G.O.A.T.

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    I'd love to live in the world you live in
     
  19. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    Exactly. And they can't play or they can't call lines (or have been taught or pressured not to). And yet they think some sort of 3.5 mixed match that they're playing in takes on the significance of a Wimbledon final. It's bizarre.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  20. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    Improve your tennis instead of wasting your money on gadgets like and you might do one day.
     
  21. Crisp

    Crisp Professional

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    If you are behind the line the ball caneasily land out and you cannot see the space between the line and the ball if this device can,due to its side view that will be great. I have attended hundreds of tournaments over the years, junior, itf, open and cheating is rife as are simple mistakes. I'd like to see tech of this sort rolled out at every sanctioned tournament in Australia.
     
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  22. sathee46

    sathee46 New User

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    I assume no one has received the device yet. All this discussion without even knowing how the actual device performs?

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  23. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    I don't believe it's generally so at ITF level. Even official judges are making mistakes, sometimes seemingly with bias. But you don't see cheating much around you. It's good for you. I told you. Be happy. Like I said, this device is most useful for 3.0 to 3.5 players in casual matches, practices, and so on. Don't mix it up while your opinion is based on your small environment.
     
  24. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    You're right. And that's why this heats up a lot.
     
  25. therecanbeonlyone

    therecanbeonlyone Rookie

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    TW got to demo the prototype of the device at the beginning of 2017. From what they posted, they thought it did a pretty good job of calling lines. Give me the stats that go with it, and I'm happy. I'd be interested in comparing it to the Playsight court that they play on.
     
  26. pnw_hardcourt

    pnw_hardcourt Rookie

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    I don't think the desire to use a device like this all that correlated to skill level, for me I have a strong interest in technology and data. I tried the other racquet sensors and I won't defend them at all, they suck and I returned them for refunds. Doesn't mean this one will suck, but it might, we'll see.

    It is the first device to give stats with court awareness. I think that justifies the gamble and does set it apart from the other sensors on the market.

    Sports are becoming very data driven, why not want to be a part of that? It's $200 bucks not exactly a huge investment...
     
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  27. beltsman

    beltsman Hall of Fame

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    I know my priorities far better than you and I also don't talk down to people.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  28. [​IMG]

    What's going on here? You worried this gadget's gonna catch you out or sumfing?
     
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  29. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    If you consider this device a priority that's probably why you're stuck at the level that you are.
     
  30. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    Not at all. Just telling these 3.0s and 3.5s that they're wasting their time if think that this gadget is going to take them to the next level.
     
  31. beltsman

    beltsman Hall of Fame

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    Lol you know nothing about me. Just bring your condescending elsewhere.
     
  32. Boyd Clary

    Boyd Clary Rookie

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    I've played at every level of tennis from HS, through College, 4.5/5.0 USTA and ITF. I can count on one hand the number of opponents that I would consider to be blatant cheaters.[/QUOTE]

    Wow. Cheating is so rampant at the college level that why they don't play lets on the serve in college tennis. Most colleges are actively looking into playsight or other such systems for player analysis (training, like the USTA Junior Training center has) and to decrease need for refs/decrease cheating.

    And what about the pros, they have the best eyes and skills in the world. But the pros have both linesmen and Hawkeye (except RG because it doesn't work there?) - because they never missed a call- I mean cheat (by your definition).

    I also haven't seen significant posting that this would improve their game, make us better, etc. The stats would be interesting and perhaps would give some guidance on what to work on and reference point to other players using the same system. So I now confused why RacketKing is attacking people interested in this and our tennis play?

    I don't know if the device will work, but if it works 1/2 as well as advertised it would take a lot of the stress out of rec tennis. I am not making the hard/close calls, the machine is. For the record, I am constantly being told I am way to nice, because I never call it out if it is close... I just play it. But I know I leave a lot points on the table.

    As for RacketKing- I would like to know where you live and play, it sounds real nice.
     
  33. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    Have ever thought of why you were stuck at your level? Do you think playing at ITF is such an achievement?
     
  34. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    Do you keep spreading insults this way?
     
  35. LOL strawman. who on earth would think a line calling gadget would improve their technique. Haven't seen anyone even remotely suggest that anyway. Its a potentially cheap way to eliminate cheating and also create a level playing field as its AI and impartial. What's not to like?

    if anything its a bit weird verging upon creepy watching how aggressively you're demanding no one try or use this.

    you're not a babolat rep or anything by any chance?
     
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  36. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    1. So what if some people bought into sales pitch?. It's their money and they are entitled to buy what they like

    2. The rating of a player is not relevant. It up to each to decide what they want to do with their game. having Played in a slightly higher nrtp rating doesn't mean anything.
     
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  37. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    Its not an insult. I just don't think it's going to benefit them in the way that they think its going to benefit them.

    They're free to buy as many as they want - its not my money they're spending.
     
  38. LOL!!! Wtf does anyone's tennis ranking have to do with anything related to this device or anything like it, or their freedom to buy it or have an opinion on it?

    That's enough internet for today i think for me, might go picket Teds Cameras and demand no one buy any new lenses.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2017
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  39. racket king

    racket king Banned

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    Like I've said already, they're free to buy whatever they want. As for opinions this thread is all about opinions, the most recent of which involves a discussion about its accuracy or otherwise.

    Why are levels important? Because it's typically newer players who are at the 2.5, 3.0 etc level and buy these sort of devices thinking that they're going to somehow take them to the next level.
     
  40. onehandbh

    onehandbh Legend

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    The more interesting question is whether this gadget will improve line calling.

    Remains to be seen.
     
  41. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    Racet King apologize and behave!

    :D
     
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  42. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    Is there an appropriate level to buy this device?
     
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  43. loosegroove

    loosegroove Hall of Fame

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    I can't wait to get this thing! With it by my side I'm probably going to jump 1 or 2 NTRP levels within a month or so....said no one in this thread.
     
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  44. Subaruvich

    Subaruvich Semi-Pro

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    The companion app is now available for download.
     
  45. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    Here’s the support/help page

    http://support.inout.tennis/software-ui

    So far it looks like October release has line calling for singles and recording of the matches. Stats and etc will be in future releases.

    This dampens my enthusiasm slightly as I was looking for at least some basic stats stuff to begin with. This may have to wait a bit
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  46. Crisp

    Crisp Professional

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    I'm one of the buyers on this. Not a 3.5 level.... Not that it matters. I buy tech I think will help either myself or my players.... Have never bought babolat pop or Zepp or the like as I couldn't see it working. I did have a babolat play as it was part of my sponsorship package at the time. I have an ace attack ball machine. Normatec recovery legs. Marc pro pain management device. IPad for video analysis. Indoor court. Clay court. All of which I bought early because I thought they had value to either myself or my players... I believe this will too and is much cheaper then most of the other things listed above.
     
  47. whorng

    whorng New User

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    If lighting, players, and other factors affect the accuracy of this machine it cannot be consistently accurate/inaccurate...
    And considering it has a generous margin of error I do not see this being used in serious matches.
    So far it looks like a gadget for recreational use only when lines calls are in question. And probably indoors where there are less variables.

    I'm sure some of these have been asked already, but:
    Can it handle being in the sun for hours?
    Seems to be made of plastics with a rubber sleeve.
    Will the plastic melt/warp, will the rubber degrade and become brittle?
    Can the camera components take the heat?
    Car dash cams are notorious for crapping out in the heat. The camera gets foggy overtime, etc. However cars are a much hotter environment.
    Hopefully it can take hits from fast tennis balls.
    Looking forward to the reviews them the guinea pigs. :D

    As an outsider that just read the recent comments it is clear racket king is making stuff up and insulting anybody that doesn't agree with their thoughts. Although he claims they are not insults... when obviously they are.
    It's not possible to have a discussion with keyboard warriors. Just leave him alone guys.
     
  48. ElMagoElGato

    ElMagoElGato Semi-Pro

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    You're right. It's very simple now. But I guess we need to start with the basic quality to track the ball. Once it proves to be OK, software can handle many things on top of it.
     
  49. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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    And it will become prove or unproven. Why can't people combine hobbies with their discretionary income for their enjoyment? No one likes angry retro grouches that insist on being condescending to anyone with a different view point. I will let you decide who those people are.
     
  50. Maximus XXIV

    Maximus XXIV Rookie

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    Something I think no one mentioned; just having video of your play will be beneficial from a feed back perspective.
     
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