In praise of Kevlar/ZX hybrid!!!

tennisbike said:
Interesting! You stated you made string from Kevlar reel. Do you mean you strung racket using the Kevlar reel?

I purchased and strung once with something similar. The claimed strength was 250lb, but super thin. Forgot what was the claimed thickness. No did not break, but I only strung it at 50 lb. or so. But I worked hard to press on the string to pull out the slacks on the outside of the frame. No, it did not break.
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Not exactly. I took 2 strands of the kevlar and added a 26g strand of steel wire and twisted it all together and coated it with teflon. I called it Shroudbite. He he.

It was actually soft and the teflon was gone in minutes. There was a thread but the picts are gone. It was a bear to string but it was soft and springy. I think most people would have liked its feel. Me? Not so much. Its still in a profile some place.
 
Shroud said:
Not exactly. I took 2 strands of the kevlar and added a 26g strand of steel wire and twisted it all together and coated it with teflon. I called it Shroudbite. He he.

It was actually soft and the teflon was gone in minutes. There was a thread but the picts are gone. It was a bear to string but it was soft and springy. I think most people would have liked its feel. Me? Not so much. Its still in a profile some place.
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Very interesting. How many people did you kill during this experiment?
 
Shroud said:
Not exactly. I took 2 strands of the kevlar and added a 26g strand of steel wire and twisted it all together and coated it with teflon. I called it Shroudbite. He he.
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I am impressed. You are the mad scientist among us. Well.. No.. but mad in a good way. Very cool!
Let's start a thread for In praise of Real hybrid - Shroudbite: Kevlar/steer main string.

But serious, the whole idea of "composite" is tricky. Adding 2 strands of Kevlar and steel does not mean the it would be 3 times stronger or anything like that. It sometimes breaks at the weakest link. So the whole frame + main strings + cross strings + weaving .. is difficult to come up with some sort of clear model. And then in the different hands, the feel then is completely open book.
 
tennisbike said:
I am impressed. You are the mad scientist among us. Well.. No.. but mad in a good way. Very cool!
Let's start a thread for In praise of Real hybrid - Shroudbite: Kevlar/steer main string.

But serious, the whole idea of "composite" is tricky. Adding 2 strands of Kevlar and steel does not mean the it would be 3 times stronger or anything like that. It sometimes breaks at the weakest link. So the whole frame + main strings + cross strings + weaving .. is difficult to come up with some sort of clear model. And then in the different hands, the feel then is completely open book.
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I strung it at 86 lbs as a full bed. I played with it a couple of times. Its still in the racquet. Doubt it would break with normal play any differently than kev

Thanks for acknowledging that I AM mad

Fwiw the steel was supposed to provide some texture and increase spin. It certainly didnt do that.

I think i have a pict somewhere.
 
I strung up one of my frames with hyper-g in the mains and monogut zx in the crosses both @ 57 (57/57).

I didn't pre-stretch the zx. Hopefully it doesn't massively lose tension when I hit with it.
 
bleno567 said:
I strung up one of my frames with hyper-g in the mains and monogut zx in the crosses both @ 57 (57/57).

I didn't pre-stretch the zx. Hopefully it doesn't massively lose tension when I hit with it.
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I don't think hope will will work, ZX has a tension loss of ~45%.
 
In my experience, once pre-tensioned, the ZXP loses very little tension through it playable life. The Kev mains do lose tension a bit over the first couple hours of play and then very gradually drop over 10s of hours. The ZXP eventually saws through the Kev.

I do notice a perceived loss of spin and an increase in 'softness' as the Kev/ZXP stringbed ages from use. But its very rarely to the point that I feel like I need to cut it out before the Kev breaks.
 
TypeRx said:
In my experience, once pre-tensioned, the ZXP loses very little tension through it playable life. The Kev mains do lose tension a bit over the first couple hours of play and then very gradually drop over 10s of hours. The ZXP eventually saws through the Kev.

I do notice a perceived loss of spin and an increase in 'softness' as the Kev/ZXP stringbed ages from use. But its very rarely to the point that I feel like I need to cut it out before the Kev breaks.
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This is exactly what I observe as well.
 
I have a set of crossfire zx tour. I also have a half set of klip natural gut. I'm thinking of swapping out the monogut zx for the gut. Will this be a superior set up in terms of feel/comfort, or should I keep the monogut zx?
 
bleno567 said:
I have a set of crossfire zx tour. I also have a half set of klip natural gut. I'm thinking of swapping out the monogut zx for the gut. Will this be a superior set up in terms of feel/comfort, or should I keep the monogut zx?
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Would love to hear how this works! Please try it out and report back!

It is a more expensive setup than ZXP but NG would certainly add back feel into an otherwise muted stringbed. Doubt it would add comfort - ZXP is pretty much as the same as NG in this regard. I would be concerned that the Kev will wear down the NG quite a bit though and perhaps cause a shortened lifespan.
 
bleno567 said:
I have a set of crossfire zx tour. I also have a half set of klip natural gut. I'm thinking of swapping out the monogut zx for the gut. Will this be a superior set up in terms of feel/comfort, or should I keep the monogut zx?
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Kevlar/nat gut is what Agassi used for most of his career all through the 90s.

I’ve tried it a few times - it doesn’t feel or play that much differently than kev/nylon. It gives more of a locked stringbed.

Compared to kev/zx, kev/gut will give better launch angle control and touch, but less spin and comfort.


I think kev/gut is better in open pattern and OS frames. But in player’s frames I prefer a spinnier setup.
 
2ndServe said:
anyone use the 18g ashaway kevlar? I think I tried it in the past but it actually cut through the grommets after time
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It plays pretty much the same as larger gauges, but doesn’t last very long. 17g lasts about 3x as long as 18g, and 16g lasts about 3x as long as 17g.

The tension maintenance and playing characteristics are also more consistent over the stringbed life for the larger gauges, so I prefer 16g. That said, when 18g kevlar is used in kev/zx hybrid at the right tension, I was getting stupid eye-popping spin on twist serves for that short 2h window before it stretched out too much, as it allows more lateral main string movement.
 
TypeRx said:
Would love to hear how this works! Please try it out and report back!
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Will do!

travlerajm said:
Compared to kev/zx, kev/gut will give better launch angle control and touch, but less spin and comfort.
I think kev/gut is better in open pattern and OS frames. But in player’s frames I prefer a spinnier setup.
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Thanks for the response! That's actually super interesting that a locked string bed would work better for open pattern.
 
bleno567 said:
Will do!



Thanks for the response! That's actually super interesting that a locked string bed would work better for open pattern.
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The key with really open patterns is that it never completely locks with kevlar/nylon, so you can still get pretty good spin, while kevlar/zx or kevlar/poly can give excessive lateral mainstring freedom, which is great for spin but compromises control.
 
Ok. So just strung up my prestiges with crossfire zx tour at 62/48 with a 10% prestretch on the monogut zx. I'm gonna string up another one with kevlar/gut. What tension should I string that at for a good comparison? Keep the kevlar mains at 62, and maybe 55 for the gut?
 
bleno567 said:
Ok. So just strung up my prestiges with crossfire zx tour at 62/48 with a 10% prestretch on the monogut zx. I'm gonna string up another one with kevlar/gut. What tension should I string that at for a good comparison? Keep the kevlar mains at 62, and maybe 55 for the gut?
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why not keep it the same?
 
Shroud said:
why not keep it the same?
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I was thinking about that as an option as well. Gut will maintain it's tension better than monogut zx though, right? The idea is to let the monogut settle to balance out the high tension of the kevlar, correct? So maybe I string the gut at like 45?
 
bleno567 said:
I was thinking about that as an option as well. Gut will maintain it's tension better than monogut zx though, right? The idea is to let the monogut settle to balance out the high tension of the kevlar, correct? So maybe I string the gut at like 45?
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Ah. FWIW I never considered not prestretching the zx. Prestretched zx has a gut like tension maintence. But imho 10% prestretch is not a true prestretch...

Gut will lock for sure with kev so 45 is probably about right maybe a bit lower.
 
Shroud said:
Gut will lock for sure with kev so 45 is probably about right maybe a bit lower.
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Oh really? Didn't think that Kev would "cut" into the gut and lock it up...wonder how long that process takes. Good point on the tension though -- I guess you would string NG at a similar tension as ZXP with a 20 lb+ Kev differential?

Something I will probably experiment with out of boredom. Kev/ZXP is boring...it is such a consistent performer for me that sometimes I just want to be reminded how much I like it relative to other setups. :-D
 
TypeRx said:
Oh really? Didn't think that Kev would "cut" into the gut and lock it up...wonder how long that process takes. Good point on the tension though -- I guess you would string NG at a similar tension as ZXP with a 20 lb+ Kev differential?

Something I will probably experiment with out of boredom. Kev/ZXP is boring...it is such a consistent performer for me that sometimes I just want to be reminded how much I like it relative to other setups. :-D
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Before I found this forum I was doing kev/gut in a POG 93 at 65/67 IIRC. Gut should lock in a few hits if you have any kind of stroke 5-10 min tops. Gut is soft and pretty much any main will lock it.

IMHO if you are using a locked cross you are not after what a zx cross will deliver so the tension differential is kind of useless with a gut cross.

Gut crosses will really show you how great zx is...
 
TypeRx said:
Oh really? Didn't think that Kev would "cut" into the gut and lock it up...wonder how long that process takes. Good point on the tension though -- I guess you would string NG at a similar tension as ZXP with a 20 lb+ Kev differential?

Something I will probably experiment with out of boredom. Kev/ZXP is boring...it is such a consistent performer for me that sometimes I just want to be reminded how much I like it relative to other setups. :-D
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012.jpg


Check out this full kevlar bed. I put in stringsavers and one flew out. Later I realized it and added one, but the damage was done. Kevlar will shred any locked cross even kevlar.
 
So I just hit with my 3 YT IG Prestiges I strung up:

1) Crossfire zx Tour at 62/48
2) hyper g mains and monogut zx crosses at 57/57
3) Natural gut mains and poly tour pro crosses 62/57

The good news is my elbow didn't even have a smidge of discomfort with any of them, so already that's a huge improvement over the full bed of hyper-g I had been using.

The bad news is the crossfire zx tour was my favorite of the 3, but the monogut zx snapped at the grommet about 10 minutes in, so I didn't get to hit with it much. Loved the dead feel of the kevlar.

Second favorite was #2 above. I get even more spin with this set up than a full bed of hyper g, and more comfort, so it's totally superior. This is the most spin friendly set up I've ever used. I had shots landing in that I couldn't believe didn't fly 5 feet long.

#3 was my least favorite. I think natural gut just might not be for me, which is well and good, since it's expensive anyway.
 
bleno567 said:
So I just hit with my 3 YT IG Prestiges I strung up:

1) Crossfire zx Tour at 62/48
2) hyper g mains and monogut zx crosses at 57/57
3) Natural gut mains and poly tour pro crosses 62/57

The good news is my elbow didn't even have a smidge of discomfort with any of them, so already that's a huge improvement over the full bed of hyper-g I had been using.

The bad news is the crossfire zx tour was my favorite of the 3, but the monogut zx snapped at the grommet about 10 minutes in, so I didn't get to hit with it much. Loved the dead feel of the kevlar.

Second favorite was #2 above. I get even more spin with this set up than a full bed of hyper g, and more comfort, so it's totally superior. This is the most spin friendly set up I've ever used. I had shots landing in that I couldn't believe didn't fly 5 feet long.

#3 was my least favorite. I think natural gut just might not be for me, which is well and good, since it's expensive anyway.
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nice report! Sad about the zx snapping. If the grommets are worn and they nick the zx, it will break. If its nicked in the stringing process, it will break.

If you don't nick it it will last a long long time.
 
bleno567 said:
So I just hit with my 3 YT IG Prestiges I strung up:

1) Crossfire zx Tour at 62/48
2) hyper g mains and monogut zx crosses at 57/57
3) Natural gut mains and poly tour pro crosses 62/57

The good news is my elbow didn't even have a smidge of discomfort with any of them, so already that's a huge improvement over the full bed of hyper-g I had been using.

The bad news is the crossfire zx tour was my favorite of the 3, but the monogut zx snapped at the grommet about 10 minutes in, so I didn't get to hit with it much. Loved the dead feel of the kevlar.

Second favorite was #2 above. I get even more spin with this set up than a full bed of hyper g, and more comfort, so it's totally superior. This is the most spin friendly set up I've ever used. I had shots landing in that I couldn't believe didn't fly 5 feet long.

#3 was my least favorite. I think natural gut just might not be for me, which is well and good, since it's expensive anyway.
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I thought Crossfire ZX Tour didn't have Kevlar mains?

Ashaway Crossfire ZX Tour 16L/1.27 String | Tennis Warehouse

www.tennis-warehouse.com www.tennis-warehouse.com
 
A couple quick points to add to this thread.
  • I've previously said I don't notice much difference between 17g and 16g Ashaway Kevlar. I think @travlerajm has indicated 16g is preferable as it provides better durability and perhaps tension maintenance. I am inclined to believe that and will order 16g with my next reel.
  • I am continuing to reuse ZXP regularly with absolutely no detriment to playability, duration, whatever. The string just lasts forever and the benefit is you don't need to pre-stretch if reusing. The downside is that you need to use 2 segments to string the next time and have to be comfortable with tying off and starting the second segment at places in the frame not specifically recommended by the racket mfg. But in my experience it works just fine.
  • I have recently noticed a slight dropoff in spin potential and also a slightly lower launch angle as the stringbed gets over 20 hours. I hit with a lot of topspin and margin over the net so these minor changes in stringbed performance are enough for me to want to use a more fresh setup for important matches.
  • I've really been noticing it lately...I am absolutely shredding the felt on the ball. At the end of the a 2-3 hour session, my ankles and shoes have a noticeable amount of felt covering them. Of course you can see fuzz floating in the air as well. This is especially noticeable with more fresh strings. FYI, I only use Pro Penn Marathon Extra Duty and Wilson US Open Extra Duty balls. Conclusion -- this string setup is really spin friendly while maintaining comfort and having inherent power when you want it.
Enjoy your tennis guys!
 
TypeRx said:
A couple quick points to add to this thread.
  • I've previously said I don't notice much difference between 17g and 16g Ashaway Kevlar. I think @travlerajm has indicated 16g is preferable as it provides better durability and perhaps tension maintenance. I am inclined to believe that and will order 16g with my next reel.
  • I am continuing to reuse ZXP regularly with absolutely no detriment to playability, duration, whatever. The string just lasts forever and the benefit is you don't need to pre-stretch if reusing. The downside is that you need to use 2 segments to string the next time and have to be comfortable with tying off and starting the second segment at places in the frame not specifically recommended by the racket mfg. But in my experience it works just fine.
  • I have recently noticed a slight dropoff in spin potential and also a slightly lower launch angle as the stringbed gets over 20 hours. I hit with a lot of topspin and margin over the net so these minor changes in stringbed performance are enough for me to want to use a more fresh setup for important matches.
  • I've really been noticing it lately...I am absolutely shredding the felt on the ball. At the end of the a 2-3 hour session, my ankles and shoes have a noticeable amount of felt covering them. Of course you can see fuzz floating in the air as well. This is especially noticeable with more fresh strings. FYI, I only use Pro Penn Marathon Extra Duty and Wilson US Open Extra Duty balls. Conclusion -- this string setup is really spin friendly while maintaining comfort and having inherent power when you want it.
Enjoy your tennis guys!
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For those who have never seen @TypeRx play, when he says he hits with a lot of topspin, he is actually being modest. He hits with rpm level in the 99.9th percentile of all rec players. There are better players out there, but when it comes to pure topspin rpm, he can match anyone! The kevlar/zx works well for his high-rpm heavy-spin style of play.

I hadn't been using zx crosses for awhile, but my friend just gave me 40 feet of scrap from the end of his reel. I used it to string up my superdense pattern Ultra Tour with kevlar/zx for a test at 56/50. I pre-wove the kevlar mains prior to tensioning, and this time used a metal tack hammer method to prestretch before tie-off. Prestretched the zx pro black crosses manually about 20". Unfortunately I have a calf injury so it might be a few weeks before I can test it.
 
bleno567 said:
I'm sure this has already been covered, but is there any noticeable difference between the natural and black colors?
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The surface of the black is a little bit more lubricious, based on my impression. This may or may not affect playability, depending on the tensions and pattern.
 
travlerajm said:
For those who have never seen @TypeRx play, when he says he hits with a lot of topspin, he is actually being modest. He hits with rpm level in the 99.9th percentile of all rec players.
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o_O:-D:-D

There are better players out there,
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(n)(n)(n)(n) Fake news.

Unfortunately I have a calf injury so it might be a few weeks before I can test it.
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Shoot - rest it up and hope you get back on the courts soon!
 
bleno567 said:
I'm sure this has already been covered, but is there any noticeable difference between the natural and black colors?
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tenor.gif


I prefer black ZXP as it plays a bit softer/more powerful to me and I've also had less on-stringer breakage with black. While that is completely anecdotal, the aesthetics aren't to be contested ;)

Many users of the natural color ZXP say it better approximates NG in terms of feel. I dunno. It just seemed stiffer to me at the same tension as the black.
 
Shroud said:
OMG. Did Booney say "plush"? The kevlar police will NOT be happy.

Great job @TW Staff on the review!!
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And he was using a PC95+!! Such a great racquet for that setup, I originally had mine as well as my Kev/4G setups in a very highly leaded up Pure Control 2014 (I posted a little more about that in the spinoff thread).
 
graycrait said:

Well, there goes the neighborhood. Now it will no longer be a "cult" string, embraced by a few, scorned by the ignorant, soon to be embraced by the masses driving prices up to natural gut levels. 15-20hrs of comfort and control, balderdash! I had better order some more before the rush/price increase.
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I doubt they did a great prestretch. Huge advantage of kev/zx is that it pretty much plays unchanged after the first 30-1hour....if you do a solid prestretch, especially on the zx.
 
I just hit some balls outdoors against the wall, and rallied a little too, with my leaded-up Ultra Tour strung with kev/zx.

I had forgotten how pleasant a hitting experience this setup can be. The comfort level was super comfy (much more so than the same racquet with kevlar/poly I think. Really grippy, nice spin and soft feel, nice control. Can’t say much about volleys as I didn’t really try these, but wow groundies were nice.
 
tlm said:
Kevlar and 4G is a sweet set up.
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I thought that until my wrist said, "NO!" Ash Kev x 4G felt so sexy for about 3 weeks in both "light" and "heavy" Head Radical OS 18x19 107's.

Now I am going to restring all my Ash Kev x 4G rackets with either Ash Kev x ZX or Ash Kev x Multifeel.
 
graycrait said:
I thought that until my wrist said, "NO!" Ash Kev x 4G felt so sexy for about 3 weeks in both "light" and "heavy" Head Radical OS 18x19 107's.

Now I am going to restring all my Ash Kev x 4G rackets with either Ash Kev x ZX or Ash Kev x Multifeel.
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You won’t get anywhere near as good control with those set ups, I would go with the Multifeel over the ZX.
 
I had compared Crossfire zx pro (62/48) with a hyper-g / monogut zx hybrid (57/57), and I much prefer the latter, as I got better spin, a little nicer sound of the bed, and it was a little more lively.

Perhaps I strung the crossfire too tightly in the mains, but it's really dead, and that's coming from someone who likes dead feeling strings. I still have one other set, and I think I'm going to put it in my prince longbodies since that frame can be hard to tame.
 
bleno567 said:
I had compared Crossfire zx pro (62/48) with a hyper-g / monogut zx hybrid (57/57), and I much prefer the latter, as I got better spin, a little nicer sound of the bed, and it was a little more lively.

Perhaps I strung the crossfire too tightly in the mains, but it's really dead, and that's coming from someone who likes dead feeling strings. I still have one other set, and I think I'm going to put it in my prince longbodies since that frame can be hard to tame.
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I don't think 62 lbs is too high at all especially considering you like hyperG at 57 lbs (you are crazy LOL!). However, the overall stringbed does become less boardy and more lively after the first couple hours of play so just make sure to give it several hours of play before full assessment. I have never used ZX with hyperG but based on my experience with other polys, ZX crosses will break the mains within a few hours.

One caveat is that I've never used the Kevlar+ that is in the Crossfire pack -- not sure how its characteristics really differ vs. regularly Ashaway Kevlar.
 
TypeRx said:
I have never used ZX with hyperG but based on my experience with other polys, ZX crosses will break the mains within a few hours.
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Funny you say that. The main did break in about 3-4 hours. Why does ZX chew through mains like that? I'd have thought he slippery nature of it would keep it from eating in and making notches.
 
bleno567 said:
Funny you say that. The main did break in about 3-4 hours. Why does ZX chew through mains like that? I'd have thought he slippery nature of it would keep it from eating in and making notches.
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While the ZX monofilament is brittle and can be difficult to string, once strung, I don't think there is another string available (besides ZX itself) that can actually notch it. It is simply too hard. It will notch and break just about any poly main very quickly. It is slippery, but the constant zagging of the mains against it rapidly weakens them.
 
tlm said:
You won’t get anywhere near as good control with those set ups, I would go with the Multifeel over the ZX.
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I've been using Ash Kev 16g x ZX Pro for around 5 years. I currently have approx 17 rackets with Ash Kev x ZX right now. I do agree that Ash Kev x 4G gives more control but it is more nuance that anything. It depends on how you prep the Ash Kev and ZX, then it is tension. I haven't used many multi crosses with Ash Kev so I am going to give Multifeel a whirl just for fun.

I only play one day a week with folks who think winning is more important than just getting out and having fun. And I am getting bored with that. At my age I just don't get it with the desire to "win" any more when just leaving the court vertically is a win:) I normally play 5-6 days a week with an enormously wide variety of skill levels, from my weekly doubles night with a 30 yr D1 coach as my partner to hitting with "old" ladies my age to tune up their 3.0 doubles nite. Heck, even high school kids call me up to give them a hit. I really enjoy hitting with the college players but Covid has cut into that this year.

Covid has even cut into our informal "Smack Talk League." We had folk from 24-80 yrs old in that "league." Smack talk is required and graded, sort of like Olympic Figure Skating. We had a former hi speed Czech junior now a brilliant business woman, retired Uni Math prof, West Point grad former MI high school hall of fame tennis player, two guys from different eras who played for Hawaii Pacific, an engineer from Brazil, and an operations manager from S. Korea and the list goes on. Much laughter required and diversity in all aspects appreciated. One night I was playing and looked over the 4 nearby courts, mine and the 3 adjacent and said to myself, I am the only "old" white male out here, tennis is so fun. Reminded me of an earlier career where I would find myself in some odd place and have to shout out, "Anyone speak English?" Crazy as it may sound I found someone every time who could.
 
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Ordered a set because of Boonie! :) gonna try 55/45lbs first... will ask stringer to prestretch on machine

p.s what do I tell the stringer to prestretch the kevlar or the cross string ? and how much ??
 
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