In praise of Kevlar/ZX hybrid!!!

[Shroud]

Following up on the ZXP vs 4G cross dilemma…

The 4G did end up notching a bit more than I’d like to see. Granted, the 16g Kevlar was already sawed through surprisingly quickly, but along the way I did notice that the 4G didn’t stay as dent-free as I would’ve hoped.

I’m going back to a ZXP cross as a result, because it stays totally notch-free. That said, I wish I could tame the power more on a Kev/ZXP setup (both strung at 60lbs because I don’t want a differential messing with hoop deformity on my flexible PT57As).

With this in mind, do you think it’s viable to take the setup up to 65/65lbs, instead of 60/60? The limiting factor is of course the 17g Zyex Pro being strung above 60lbs.

In summary, I’d love to stiffen up the stringbed even further, but:

1.) I don’t want to use a differential with tighter mains.
2.) I don’t want a poly cross due to denting.
3.) I’m not sure if I should be going up to 65lbs on the ZXP (someone else is stringing my racquets, so I don’t want to ask for a tension that could break on them regularly).

Apart from just winging it with the ZXP at 65lbs, or maybe trying the 65lbs with ZX 16g instead, I feel like I might just be out of luck?

Sad to say it but I ditched kev/zx because I could never get it firm enough…

 

[graycrait]

Sad to say it but I ditched kev/zx because I could never get it firm enough…

I get that with ZX, that is why I think nearly any reference tension in the 54-60lb arena really doesn't make much difference with a ZX cross to an Ash Kev main. It's taffy-like nature prohibits the same feel as strings that react more "normally" to specific ref tensions - I think. I've tried ZX fullbed, with nat gut, syn gut and poly and I don't like any of those.

 

[Shroud]

I get that with ZX, that is why I think nearly any reference tension in the 54-60lb arena really doesn't make much difference with a ZX cross to an Ash Kev main. It's taffy-like nature prohibits the same feel as strings that react more "normally" to specific ref tensions - I think. I've tried ZX fullbed, with nat gut, syn gut and poly and I don't like any of those.

I tried it at 70 or higher IIRC and it was ok for like 5 min. Then every hit after that point, the zx would just stretch and the tension got lower and lower. I also had a couple of polys behave like that.

 

[skydog]

Update on the Phantom 100G string 55 lb x 50 lbs:

I was initially concerned with the lower Kevlar tension as it’s the lowest I have ever strung it figuring it was going to start launching the ball. So far, after about 3 hours of play, it has remained controllable. I am actually enjoying plusher feel and enhanced ball pocketing with this set up so far. As long as it remains controllable, I do not feel the need to increase the Kevlar tension in this racquet and set up. I feel next week will be the true test as I get more hours on the stringbed.

 

[graycrait]

Update on the Phantom 100G string 55 lb x 50 lbs:

Normally I am not an advocate of stringing Ash Kev x ZX in such a low RA racket these days, but in a 100" 16x18 at your tensions I would give it a try based on your experience. Alas, having had over a dozen 100" 16x18s in the past I no longer have any. I'll have to try that in one of my Volkl 98s, either '08 C10 Pros or Tour 10 MidPlus's.

 

[skydog]

Normally I am not an advocate of stringing Ash Kev x ZX in such a low RA racket these days, but in a 100" 16x18 at your tensions I would give it a try based on your experience. Alas, having had over a dozen 100" 16x18s in the past I no longer have any. I'll have to try that in one of my Volkl 98s, either '08 C10 Pros or Tour 10 MidPlus's.

Other than an occasional play test racquet, all of my gamers strung with Kev/ZX have been RA 60 or lower (2015 Wilson Blade 104, Prince Tour 98 ESP, PK Black Ace 315, Head MG Radical OS, and now the Prince Phantom 100G). Of course, all were weight and balance modified to be at least 369 grams / 10 pts HL and not playing at stock weights. I love the feel and performance of this hybrid and the playing longevity is second to none. I have not seriously entertained trying any other string since I switched over to Kev/ZX.

 

[DariaGT]

Sad to say it but I ditched kev/zx because I could never get it firm enough…

Have you tried 25usd a roll PPs 1.20mm Concept on the crosses @ 33lbs and UC Mains @ 40lbs?
You can put the ball anywhere you like how you like.

 

[graycrait]

Have you tried 25usd a roll PPs 1.20mm Concept on the crosses @ 33lbs and UC Mains @ 40lbs?
You can put the ball anywhere you like how you like.

For how long at what level will this string bed last?

 

[DariaGT]

I get 6-8hrs of singles and 2X that in doubles then let them rest for a month and use same racquet which gives me another 2-3 hours each in doubles
They last a very long time before I restring them as I use other racquets for coaching. 200M PPs 1.20mm Concept $25 and 200M WC UC $99 last for years.
The Concept crosses have no wear or change in performance but UC does not snap back with the same velocity over 6 hours.
Now looking to do crosses first experiment as successfully done by Unorthodox Stringing.
https://unorthodoxstringing.blogspot.com/search/label/restringing mains or crosses


Breakdown......

78 cents for Crosses and $3.10 for Mains = $3.88 per racquet!

I initially got a roll of UC in 2016 after all the accolades which I hated as a full bed and dusted it out again to try it with
PPs concept from a tip off from a friend (uses it w/ Cyclone mains) saying it resembles BB or 4g but never wears or loses it qualities.
Combined the 2 and thought I was just having a good day but it was every day like it or I was possessed.

As a side fling got a 90" 18x20 Mizuno Lendl Type S (343g 340sw). So now looking for a 1.10mm version of PPs big of pearl magic
and will try either 1.15mm MSV Focus HEX SOFT 1.15 which is the closest to the properties, shape and stiffness of UC BUT no square

 

[Shroud]

Have you tried 25usd a roll PPs 1.20mm Concept on the crosses @ 33lbs and UC Mains @ 40lbs?
You can put the ball anywhere you like how you like.

Pros pros right? Its doubtful I will try it ever. If TW doesnt carry it it wont happen. Plus I have a reel of ashaway kevlar and 10+ packs of 4g.

And if I am complaining about zx as a cross because it cant be strung higher than 60lbs and I can never get it tight enough, why would I do 40lbs? No way that would be tight enough.

 

[DariaGT]

That is a pretty biased brand attitude but its up to you as I assumed you were one of the most open-minded experimenters?.
I still buy the best mains from TW like the UC, Cyclone or HG even though I have Dxxlop products as a sponsor.
I like to experiment with other things even play a recent charity event with wooden racquets.

The game has changed and even on Pro player Mannarino is using 23lbs with success with the stiffer poly offerings
What your aiming at 60lbs with ZX, can be replicated with some of the now incredible range of
polys like in my case with the peasant PPs Concept @ 33lbs which I was using at 35lbs for 2 years.

 

[Astonish]

Sad to say it but I ditched kev/zx because I could never get it firm enough…

That is sad to say…

…because I too wish the zx could be firmer than 60lbs, yet the 4G setup dented enough to decrease snapback of my kevlar mains.

If I can’t use a poly cross due to denting, and am therefore stuck with zx at <60lbs, then that means I have to start lowering my swingweight to reign in depth… which is not the tweak that I wanted to make

 

[Shroud]

That is sad to say…

…because I too wish the zx could be firmer than 60lbs, yet the 4G setup dented enough to decrease snapback of my kevlar mains.

If I can’t use a poly cross due to denting, and am therefore stuck with zx at <60lbs, then that means I have to start lowering my swingweight to reign in depth… which is not the tweak that I wanted to make

Havent tried it with zx, but when the crosses are more than the mains it always felt tighter.

 

[esgee48]

This may be an idiotic idea, but consider 16 Ga Kevlar mains and 17 Ga Kevlar crosses with strategically placed elastocrosses. Also do the crosses about 5# less than the mains. Both strings will hold/lose tension, but you can definitely do both strings at your max if desired.

 

[DariaGT]

Mannarino proving low tensions on polys is still overlooked

 

[skydog]

Phantom 100G update:

Still loving the Ash Kev/ZX 55 x 50 lbs in this frame. I was a bit worried going so low on the Kevlar, but the racquet has remained quite controllable. Love the feel and pocketing at this tension, my only concern is how long it will last before it becomes a bit too powerful. Put a 25% prestretch on both strings so tension loss has been minimal on the majority of my set ups, but I am usually in the high 50’s or low 60’s on the kevlar. If I can get some longevity out of this tension set up, I can see always having at least one 100G @ 55x50 in the bag for feel alone.

 

[Astonish]

Had some new test frames strung up, a 90” PT10 to compare with my 95” PT57s, both with Kev/ZXP at 60/60lbs… and I absolutely preferred the lower power that the 90” setup provided me. I’m not sure that I want to actually switch to the 90” PT10 though, so I’m back to frustratingly searching for lower power out of my 95” frames. This means, more poly cross exploration…

Even though 4G had great stiffness, it still dents so easily, so I’m moving on to polys with higher surface hardness. I’m looking at Head Hawk as well as Kirschbaum Max Power (both will be manually prestretched very thoroughly, of course). I’ve heard good things about these two, as crosses that resist denting (although those users were pairing them with gut mains). There were a couple people using Hawk crosses with Kev mains though, and they too reported positive findings in regards to denting.

I’m hoping one of these crosses will allow me to take the tension above 60lbs, unlike ZXP, while somehow staying dent free. If anyone knows which of these two resists denting better, I’d love to hear! I know some users used to do a “bend test” to see which might resist denting better. They would basically bend the end of a set (somewhere near the tip so as to not waste any) almost in half, and then straighten it back out. Strings that showed discoloration, or surface deterioration, were more likely to dent (so they said). If anyone has some Head Hawk, Kirschbaum Max Power, or any other hard surfaced poly lying around, I’d love to know how they hold up with this test!

I’ll of course report back with my own findings once I get around to stringing these crosses up in the future

 

[Lazuras_Long]

Mannarino proving low tensions on polys is still overlooked

no one’s overlooking it.

Its more that most of Manarino’s success with super low poly tension comes from his rather short and abrupt swings.

I would not advise amateurs to emulate Manarino’s swing paths except as a matter of last resort

 

[Astonish]

Final update on the dent testing I’ve been doing for zx crosses vs poly crosses…

I’ve now tried the following polys as a cross with kevlar 16g mains, in lieu of zx which wasn’t letting me take tension above 60lbs:

- Luxilon 4G
- Head Hawk
- Tecnifibre 4S
- Kirschbaum Max Power

Sadly, every single one of them has dented noticeably. When I say noticeably, my definition would be “enough that I can see visible dents during the first session, and also hear the mains audibly clicking (i.e. getting stuck) when I manually stretch them to test how they’ll snap back”.

It’s unfortunate, because I’ve enjoyed that poly lets me take the tension up to 70/65… but it’s just not worth the dented crosses. I know @travlerajm said Babolat Pro Xtreme (renamed to Pro Last) didn’t dent as a cross, but that string is only sold in reels, and at this point I honestly don’t have enough faith to try any extra poly crosses, lol.

So it seems I’ll be sticking with zyex crosses for my foreseeable future, despite the 60lb limit. I will say, I appreciated the higher tension so much so, that I’ll probably just say screw it and go for higher differentials with kev/zx now (70/60 or 80/60) in an attempt to get a tighter bed out of the 60lb zyex ceiling. I didn’t want to squash my PT57s, but the higher tension was just too beneficial for my game, while the dented poly was too harmful for my game… so, this will have to be the compromise.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in over the weeks that I was experimenting with this - I appreciate all of the thoughts you guys shared

 

[Astonish]

.

 

[DariaGT]

no one’s overlooking it.

Its more that most of Manarino’s success with super low poly tension comes from his rather short and abrupt swings.

I would not advise amateurs to emulate Manarino’s swing paths except as a matter of last resort

I have to disagree with you here on this alone as Macca, Ramesh Krishnan Jr, Mecir, Fognini, Giles Muller and Karatsev have and had great success.
Feel, craft and good timing make for better durability and longevity in a sport that requires ultra marathon stamina.
In the last 20 years you have more retirements and walk overs than ever from fatigue than pre circa 2000.

Nadal running Forehand and Feds bh flicks are almost like Mannarino for every stroke just more spin.
Ferrer used a longer softer stick and more spin generation and needed higher physicality yet had more margins for error.
An amateur just need to go out there and time the ball properly with a modern stick which requires less input than a heavy wooden noodle.

For what he has Mannarino feeds off todays higher bouncing balls efficiently and just hurt Goffin, who is a technically fluent gifted player with a beautiful game.
Todays racquets allow very compact swings or at least a good delivery with shorter ball time on the strings.
Wta vs Atp fh proves this but the swings does not fully reveal this aspect of lighter stiffer frames and strings with more snap back potential.

The back swings are really just a way to help the player time the ball and impart the force required for their needs.
As long as a player can rotate their shoulders and keep their head still with good footwork and balance the rest is up to them.

btw I dont like Mannarinos game and specially as an opponent would drive me nuts, but it works for him as it did for sleep therapy medicine Mr troll guru,,,G Simon

 

[Deleted member 775108]

Hi Kevlar/ZX fans

Ready to try this - some guidance would be appreciated.

Racket will be Prince Classic Graphite 107 (the final one marked "Tour Graphite") - 337.5g / 8HL / 320SW (with multi)

My stringer has a Alpha Ghost 2 which has maximum 10% prestretch. He said he can also pull at the lowest speed the machine will allow. Is this enough to get a good string bed?

Mains - Ashaway Kevlar - What gauge should I get? What tension (considering the limitations above)?
Crosses - Ashaway ZX Pro - What gauge should I get? What tension (considering the limitations above)?

Thanks

 

[jindra]

What you don't want to go through 56 pages?!

Anyway here's a summary:
- Manual pre-stretch for the ZX. Stretch it until it doesn't stretch anymore and immediately string it.
- Don't pre-stretch the Kevlar but you'll need to have a tension differential (+10-20lbs). The Kevlar will settle with hitting (or 1000 hits with a rubber mallet...).

For that racquet, the setup I liked more was 65/55. It's a stringbed I really like, but it's hard to convince stringers to do all this. I'll get back to it if I ever get into stringing.

 

[Deleted member 775108]

What you don't want to go through 56 pages?!

Anyway here's a summary:
- Manual pre-stretch for the ZX. Stretch it until it doesn't stretch anymore and immediately string it.
- Don't pre-stretch the Kevlar but you'll need to have a tension differential (+10-20lbs). The Kevlar will settle with hitting (or 1000 hits with a rubber mallet...).

For that racquet, the setup I liked more was 65/55. It's a stringbed I really like, but it's hard to convince stringers to do all this. I'll get back to it if I ever get into stringing.

Thank you @jindra for the quick detailed response

The stringer will do what his machine will do, nothing more. Is 10% prestretch on his machine at the slowest setting good enough or am i just wasting my time here?

 

[Trip]

@gold325 - IMHO, I'd skip the request for the large manual pre-stretch of ZX, both because it's a tall ask that most any stringer won't want to do, but also, and more importantly, because even though it will eliminate more tension loss over time, it's also excessive and removes a majority of the rebound characteristics that make ZX such a special cross in the first place. Don't listen to just us, though; that stance is backed up by Steve Crandall of Ashaway himself, so weigh all of that however you like. Even without the manual pre-stretch, from my experience you should still be able to get at least 20-30 very playable hours, with the first 10 or so being borderline magical.

For that Prince Classic Graphite 107 (link), I would go with 16 gauge in both MonoGut ZX and Ashaway Kevlar. Some stringers like to stay inside the tension range on the frame, which in this case is 57-67 pounds, and even if not, that's still a decent guide for this hybrid. Given that, I would max it out on the top end, then use a 10-pound differential of mains and crosses -- so 67 pounds kevlar mains, 57 pounds ZX crosses. If he/she is willing to go outside the range, I'd even bump it up to 70/60 (but NO higher on the ZX). Have your stringer use the 10% pre-stretch on the machine for both mains and crosses. For the kevlar mains, request two pulls each, normal speed. For the ZX crosses, a single pull at the slowest speed. When clamping ZX crosses, request at least 1/2" between the clamp and the grommet tip (to reduce the chance of snapping the ZX from too harsh a kink angle) and when tying off the ZX, hand-pulled Parnell knots only -- NO pliers or starting clamps for cinching (trust me, I learned that the hard way).

Do all of the above and you should be good to go for a solid litmus test, if nothing else. You can then always adjust your approach from there.

 

[Deleted member 775108]

@gold325 - IMHO, I'd skip the request for the large manual pre-stretch of ZX, both because it's a tall ask that most any stringer won't want to do, but also, and more importantly, because even though it will eliminate more tension loss over time, it's also excessive and removes a majority of the rebound characteristics that make ZX such a special cross in the first place. Don't listen to just us, though; that stance is backed up by Steve Crandall of Ashaway himself, so weight all of that however you like. Even without the manual pre-stretch, from my experience should should still be able to get at least 25-30 very playable hours, with the first 10 or so hours being absolute magic.

For that Prince Classic Graphite 107 (link), I would go with 16 gauge in both MonoGut ZX and Ashaway Kevlar. Some stringers like to stay inside the tension range on the frame, which in this case is 57-67 pounds, and even if not, that's still a decent guide for this hybrid. Given that, I would max it out on the top end, then use a 10-pound differential of mains and crosses -- so 67 pounds kevlar mains, 57 pounds ZX crosses. Have your stringer use the 10% pre-stretch on the machine for both mains and crosses. For the kevlar mains, request two pulls each, normal speed. For the ZX crosses, a single pull at the slowest speed. When clamping ZX crosses, request at least 1/2" between the clamp and the grommet tip (to reduce the chance of snapping the ZX from too harsh a kink angle) and when tying off the ZX, hand-pulled Parnell knots only -- NO pliers or starting clamps used to cinching (trust me, learned that the hard way).

Do all of the above and you should be good to go for a solid litmus test, if nothing else. You can then always adjust your approach from there.

Awesome detailed instructions! Another really nice TTW member sent me 1/2 set 17g Kevlar and 1/2 set Monogut ZX Pro. Would it be worth trying on this same frame? Or should I go down to a smaller head / tighter pattern frame? (I have many many rackets)

 

[Trip]

Very welcome! 17G in both will work, the string bed won't be quite as calm/controlled, you'll get a bit more trampolining and the kevlar will saw itself in half faster, but it will at least give you the same general idea of the kind of feel to expect. In a perfect world, if you could grab 16 gauge of each, that's what I would do; then throw the 17 kevlar and 17 zx pro into a tighter-pattern stick when the time arises.

 

[jindra]

@gold325 - IMHO, I'd skip the request for the large manual pre-stretch of ZX, both because it's a tall ask that most any stringer won't want to do, but also, and more importantly, because even though it will eliminate more tension loss over time, it's also excessive and removes a majority of the rebound characteristics that make ZX such a special cross in the first place. Don't listen to just us, though; that stance is backed up by Steve Crandall of Ashaway himself, so weigh all of that however you like. Even without the manual pre-stretch, from my experience you should still be able to get at least 20-30 very playable hours, with the first 10 or so being borderline magical.

For that Prince Classic Graphite 107 (link), I would go with 16 gauge in both MonoGut ZX and Ashaway Kevlar. Some stringers like to stay inside the tension range on the frame, which in this case is 57-67 pounds, and even if not, that's still a decent guide for this hybrid. Given that, I would max it out on the top end, then use a 10-pound differential of mains and crosses -- so 67 pounds kevlar mains, 57 pounds ZX crosses. If he/she is willing to go outside the range, I'd even bump it up to 70/60 (but NO higher on the ZX). Have your stringer use the 10% pre-stretch on the machine for both mains and crosses. For the kevlar mains, request two pulls each, normal speed. For the ZX crosses, a single pull at the slowest speed. When clamping ZX crosses, request at least 1/2" between the clamp and the grommet tip (to reduce the chance of snapping the ZX from too harsh a kink angle) and when tying off the ZX, hand-pulled Parnell knots only -- NO pliers or starting clamps for cinching (trust me, I learned that the hard way).

Do all of the above and you should be good to go for a solid litmus test, if nothing else. You can then always adjust your approach from there.

Are you one of those guys that loves poly under 35lbs?

 

[Trip]

Are you one of those guys that loves poly under 35lbs?

Nah. I usually like my poly in the upper 40's, low-mid 50's.

Believe it or not, I do have some experience with this hybrid, including having tried it with a 20+" manual ZX pre-stretch a few times, and yeah, it does keep tension better. But given @gold325's situation, I think what I proposed is a pretty reasonable compromise. That's where most of the reply came from -- going with what would best fit his situation, including a stringer who may not want to monkey around with heavy manual pre-stretching.

 

[jindra]

Nah. I usually like my poly in the upper 40's, low-mid 50's.

Believe it or not, it just so happens that I think this hybrid plays best without the manual pre-stretch, of which I've tried several times. Yeah, it doesn't retain tension as well. I wouldn't debate that for a second. Still, and given @gold325's situation with his stringer, I think it's a beyond-reasonable compromise to forgo it. YMMV I guess.

I tried to have a racquet strung with no instructions and just tensions. It was a huge trampoline.

Also I think max tension on the ZX is 55lbs.

 

[Trip]

I tried to have a racquet strung with no instructions and just tensions. It was a huge trampoline.

Sorry to hear that. A lot of variables involved there, but I would call into question the detail of instructions given and of course the stringer's ability (or choice) to follow them. Often hard to pinpoint after the fact.

Also I think max tension on the ZX is 55lbs.

Max recommended tension is 60 pounds, per the Monogut ZX product page (link). Under the "Specifications" portion of the info table: "Stringing tension: Up to 60 lbs (27 kgs)"

 

[jindra]

Tour level stringer.

Also look up ZX, it's not a poly. Pre-stretching it doesn't have the same effect as pre-stretching poly.

 

[Trip]

Very interesting that it was a tour-level stringer.

Understood on PEEK not being similarly effected by stretching as polyester. My recommendation still holds, per playtesting both manually pre-stretched and not. Not sure of what else can be said there. That said, always interested in other people's takes, the previous 55 pages included.

 

[travlerajm]

The “original” kevlar/zx guy here.

I’ll try to dig up the thread with some of my original experiments that predated this thread by a few years, as some of them I think are really interesting. It’s still my go-to stringbed for player’s frames. These are my current recommendations:

Start with 16g ashaway kevlar for best stringbed stability and durability. 17g or 16g zx both ok. 17g black is my favorite. Black and red are slightly slicker and slightly more ductile than natural.

1. I prestretch the 20-foot kevlar piece manually, using doorknob method. Length grows by 2-3” perm elongation.

2. string mains, tie off only one side, clamp other side (or tension with dropweight), but don’t tie off yet. Pound all mains with fist or mallet. Then transfer all slack created from the beat-down from tied end to other end (by walking tension across stringbed with finger pulls) and pull tension. Then tie off.

3. Prestretch 20-foot zx piece manually. Using doorknob method. Length grows by 20-24” perm elongation. Important: Don’t stop until you get at least 20”.

4. string crosses at same ref tension as mains.

5. save scrap zx. When kevlar breaks, you can harvest zx cross and re-use in next racquet. I’ve recycled 6 or more times with the kevlar always breaking and the zx still smooth. Recycled zx doesn’t need a prestretch. Use scrap to finish last two crosses.

6. Enjoy for many months until kevlar breaks.

 

[Trip]

@travlerajm - Thanks. I know you've been a long time supporter of manually pre-stretching the Zyex to 20"+. Would you still think it would be worth @gold325 having his stringer use it if the manual pre-stretch were not available?

 

[tlm]

i would suggest to forget the springy ZX as a cross and go with poly or my favorite Head Rip control. I use 16 gauge Ashaway and 16 Rip Control at 60 lbs and for me this is much better than Kevlar with ZX.

 

[graycrait]

i would suggest to forget the springy ZX as a cross and go with poly or my favorite Head Rip control. I use 16 gauge Ashaway and 16 Rip Control at 60 lbs and for me this is much better than Kevlar with ZX.

I thought I had tried all the options, but you gave me another, bravo!

 

[graycrait]

Oh crap, Rip Control is 12 bucks a set! I'll try some Prince Diablo poly x Ash Kev mains.

 

[tlm]

Oh crap, Rip Control is 12 bucks a set! I'll try some Prince Diablo poly x Ash Kev mains.

A poly cross with Kevlar main is a nice set up, but I much prefer the rip control cross. Makes string bed much more comfortable and the control is hard to match.

 

[travlerajm]

@travlerajm - Thanks. I know you've been a long time supporter of manually pre-stretching the Zyex to 20"+. Would you still think it would be worth @gold325 having his stringer use it if the manual pre-stretch were not available?

This is good question.

First, it depends on what the stringbed will be used for.

I personally would never want to string my own racquet without a full manual prestretch, regardless of string type, because I consider stringing a bit of a chore, and I want a fire-and-forget stringbed that plays great for months that I can trust not to break or deteriorate in performance mid-match. I’m slow on my dropweight stringing machine, takes me an hour, so adding an additional 10 minutes on top of that is well worth it for me if it gives me a great playing stable stringbed. It means I can go at least 5 times as long between stringings, long enough that I can never remember how long ago the last time I strung was.

@graycrait has advocated on this thread a method of stringing kevlar zx that circumvents the extra pre-stretch steps. He essentially strings the zx cross at a really high reference tension, and strings the kev main at an even higher reference tension, and then assumes that the tensions will drop a large amount and settle in a comfortable range with nice performance after a couple of hitting sessions to break it in. For a POG OS, I recall he recommended 70/60 lbs. I think this is a viable approach for someone who is mostly using it for rallying for fun, doesn’t mind going through a couple break-in sessions to get there, and doesn’t clobber the bejeezus out of the ball (heavier hitters will cause faster tension drop).

When I have let high level players try racquets strung by me with fully prestretched kevlar/zx, they always love it. One atp pro immediately wanted to order some of it after testing it and asked me for exact product names on court.
He was used to full poly, he strings tight, and the kevlar/zx provided him with a more predictable launch angle and grabbier easy-to-trust feel than he was used to.

On the other hand, when I tried to give a different self-stringing atp pro my formula over-the-phone for preparing kev/zx, it didn’t go that well. He apparently wasn’t able to get the prestretch done thoroughly enough without me showing him in person. I also think he had some clamp slipping issues when he strings kevlar. He says the stringbed started out a bit tight in warmup, then gave him 15 minutes of the most blissful stringbed he’s ever used, then after that it started to soften too much and eventually became mush (so for him, a heavy hitting atp grinder, it was still behaving as if not prrstretched).

 

[Trip]

@travlerajm - Thank you for the expansive, detailed reply. Definitely sets a good context for most player types and what they can expect.

Do you find heavily pre-stretched Zyex exhibits less suppleness, dwell, pocketing and/or resilience than non-pre-stretched? If there is any difference, then I presume you make up for it by simply stringing at lower tension? Is there a typical amount lower reference tension that you recommend for stretched Zyex, versus non-stretched, either by percentage or otherwise?

Thanks again.

 

[graycrait]

and doesn’t clobber the bejeezus out of the ball (heavier hitters will cause faster tension drop)

If this is aimed at me I am deeply offended, Not really Funny though, the local college stringer and I were talking strings and tensions for the poly the whole team uses earlier this week and he asked my thoughts about that string and various tensions. I flat told him my racket head speed and style is so different than a 20 yr old UTR 10 and up that my comments would be meaningless. Heck, they're pretty much meaningless anyway in the grand scheme of things

The year I strung the young D1 lady's racket who went 19-3 duals that year I always prestretched her Ash Kev and ZXP. I used the winch on the Ash Kev and did the body bounce with the ZXP, generally pulling about 18" of permanent elongation. For me personally I grew tired of prestretching both. I don't mind taking my time frittering around stringing a racket in 30 minutes, which I consider quite a leisurely pace, but the added time with prestretching didn't seem to add anything to my own dwindling game.

 

[travlerajm]

If this is aimed at me I am deeply offended, Not really Funny though, the local college stringer and I were talking strings and tensions for the poly the whole team uses earlier this week and he asked my thoughts about that string and various tensions. I flat told him my racket head speed and style is so different than a 20 yr old UTR 10 and up that my comments would be meaningless. Heck, they're pretty much meaningless anyway in the grand scheme of things

The year I strung the young D1 lady's racket who went 19-3 duals that year I always prestretched her Ash Kev and ZXP. I used the winch on the Ash Kev and did the body bounce with the ZXP, generally pulling about 18" of permanent elongation. For me personally I grew tired of prestretching both. I don't mind taking my time frittering around stringing a racket in 30 minutes, which I consider quite a leisurely pace, but the added time with prestretching didn't seem to add anything to my own dwindling game.

I think your story of the experience with the D1 lady having great success with prestretched kev/zx helps answer the question. It’s viable for high level players, as long as they have an experienced stringer who knows what he’s doing.

 

[graycrait]

helps answer the question.

However, it would have been useful for that young lady to have played with my "lazy man's" method to cement this prestretching madness At that time I was all about prestretching and with the winch I could make Ash Kev play like a board. Then one day I just pulled unprestretched Ash Kev mains, 3X on each pull and for me that worked, especially with the speed of the lockout. With the Wise I am even lazier, I just set the Wise at the slowest pull speed and string that Ash Kev like a normal string.

These days when I string Ash Kev: everything 100" and smaller 62lbs, bigger gets 65-68, depending on how big. I only string unprestretched ZXP crosses at 59lbs, never more, never less regardless of racket head size.

 

[tlm]

I’ve tried the prestretched Kevlar and ZX and didn’t notice any difference. Maybe I didn’t pre stretch it enough but for me it was a waste of time. Plus if this was so fantastic then the pro players would be doing it.
I much prefer a newer string job, I don’t care how much you pre stretch it will never compare to a new string bed.

 

[Astonish]

Personally, I notice a substantial difference when the kevlar and zx have been manually prestretched vs. not. On 20’ segments, I average 3 inches of prestretch on the kevlar, and around 27-29” on the zyex. I’ve directly A-B’d prestretched vs. not, and it’s a night-and-day difference in control + tension maintenance. FWIW, I string at 70lbs for the kevlar mains and 60lbs for the zyex crosses, always in low-powered dense-patterned 18x20 frames (PT57As, Prestige Mids, Phantoms, etc.)

I’ve also tried poly crosses with ~7” of permanent elongation (per 20’ segments), but found every single poly cross to dent. I’m sure the 70/60 lb setup doesn’t help with the denting, but in any case this can be better avoided by just sticking with zx. Still, prestretching the poly crosses helps tremendously with tension maintenance.

For my needs, I’m not sure I can ever go back to stringing without thorough manual prestretches.

 

[Astonish]

On that note… do any of my fellow prestretch nerds have advice on permanently elongating natural gut mains? I’m doing some testing to compare with my Kevlar/ZX hybrids, and I want to prestretch the gut mains as well. I know that given natural gut’s strong tension maintenance, a prestretch is probably only needed just to remove coil memory… but rather than having the mains drop a few lbs on me, I’d like to do a manual prestretch instead, the same way that I prestretch my kevlar/zyex/poly. I’m just not sure how many inches I should be looking for, given a 20’ half set. I also don’t want to apply too much body weight and snap the natural gut, so if anyone here has experience with this, I’d love some advice Thanks in advance!

cc: @travlerajm @graycrait @esgee48 @Shroud

 

[Deleted member 775108]

However, it would have been useful for that young lady to have played with my "lazy man's" method to cement this prestretching madness At that time I was all about prestretching and with the winch I could make Ash Kev play like a board. Then one day I just pulled unprestretched Ash Kev mains, 3X on each pull and for me that worked, especially with the speed of the lockout. With the Wise I am even lazier, I just set the Wise at the slowest pull speed and string that Ash Kev like a normal string.

These days when I string Ash Kev: everything 100" and smaller 62lbs, bigger gets 65-68, depending on how big. I only string unprestretched ZXP crosses at 59lbs, never more, never less regardless of racket head size.

Hi again @graycrait

Im excited to try this setup on 3 racquet 1) Latest POG from TW 2) Original Diablo MP and if it it what I am hoping in thest two a powerful racquet like a classic APD (i bought 2 sets of grommets already before I found a suitable Babolat)

Do you pull the ZXP multiple times as well? I know you dont prestretch but do you think I will I mess up the crosses if I asked my stringer to pull ZXP with 10% prestretch at the lowest speed pull setting (stringer has an Alpha Ghost 2 which only does 10% max)??

 

[graycrait]

Do you pull the ZXP multiple times as well? I

No, I do not pull ZX or ZXP multiple times. Although I am sure you could. Just don't pull too fast. If a stringer is used to clamping off at the frame on every cross "good luck" because I think that is an issue with ZX. Sometimes ZX will snap midway through the crosses. To prevent that I do not prestretch and clamp off away from the frame so that the ZX has room to stretch between the clamp and two 90 degree turns through the grommet.

The thing about ZXP or ZX is that no matter how you prestretch it when you string it up you will likely have 2' or more left at the end. And the gauge will narrow considerably. Use a digital caliper and see. Watch that you don't nick the ZX with the caliper.

 

[graycrait]

@Astonish , I have no clue about prestretching nat gut. I have strung it up quite a few times but never prestretched it manually or with a stringing machine function.