Infamous Sampras hater Rusedski: Federers's serve is in the category as Sampras

How good is Federer's serve

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  • Poll closed .
Heuristic said:
And still nowhere close to Roddicks. But maybe you think Roddick is a better tennis player overall and that's why he won 83% off his first serves.
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We just don’t know. Roddick faded so fast that any meaningful statistical like for comparison over their careers has been made redundant.

Yeah statistically you can argue that back in 03 and 04 Roddick was serving better than Fed, but that’s about it.
 
Heuristic said:
Nadal in 07 final is. Roddick in the first final is miles better than Goran. Federer's merits on grass are better.
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Yeah sure, better than Goran at the hot finals day of Wimbledon 94. Federer is better on the new grass, Sampras on the old grass. Simples. Meanwhile, you have moved the goalposts. You are now talking about 2007 and still comparing to youngpras. Federer did not face 2007 Nadal in his first three finals at Wimbledon, right? Anyhow, the point is there is no basis for you to suppose youngpras was so much better at USO, if at all, than Wimbledon. At USO, he was prepared to stay back at times, especially while receiving while he was far more aggressive on grass BECAUSE that's how grass played back then.
 
YetAnotherFedFan said:
Yeah statistically you can argue that back in 03 and 04 Roddick was serving better than Fed, but that’s about it.
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Lol. 05 was his biggest serving year. Federer won a mere 76% first serves on hard in 2005. Roddick won 83.3%

Roddick service games won on hard in 2005: 93.6% , Federer service games won on hard 2005: 91.2%

But again, Roddick is a superior player so that's why he wins more point off his first serve and aces more. In your bizzaro world
 
SaintPetros said:
Prime Djokovic's forehand return would be a liability in the 90s, especially with that extreme grip.
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If they can't use their their techniques on pre poly rackets, then the hypotethical is meaningless. Too different eras. It's only a guessing game then how they would hit their groundstrokes.
 
Heuristic said:
If they can't use their their techniques on pre poly rackets, then he hypotethical is meaningless. Too different eras. It's only a guessing game then how they would hit their groundstrokes.
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His forehand return was a liability against Fed in the 2019 final, and generally is whenever Fed serves well.
 
YetAnotherFedFan said:
That’s a cheap shot. Sampras was serving for glory on the seniors tour at 37.
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But that isn't even the first instance Fed has wasted match points. He did it in USO 2011 as well and he was 30 then. And er, if it is a cheap shot, what is talking up Fed's serve to such insane levels that it is compared to Sampras? Is it our fault if people like you can't distinguish between the hold game (which is undoubtedly one of the best ever as far as Fed goes) and the serve as a standalone shot? Sampras served way harder. He would go down the T, out wide, he would jam you, would go into your body. He could do as he pleased with that shot. Fed can as well but at a lower pace on average.
 
SaintPetros said:
His forehand return was a liability against Fed in the 2019 final, and generally is whenever Fed serves well.
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I don't know how that is in response to my question. Either they can use their techniques on outdated rackets or they can't

If they can't, then your guess is as good as mine who wins. Roger Federer would not be the Roger Federer we know.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
But that isn't even the first instance Fed has wasted match points. He did it in USO 2011 as well and he was 30 then. And er, if it is a cheap shot, what is talking up Fed's serve to such insane levels that it is compared to Sampras? Is it our fault if people like you can't distinguish between the hold game (which is undoubtedly one of the best ever as far as Fed goes) and the serve as a standalone shot? Sampras served way harder. He would go down the T, out wide, he would jam you, would go into your body. He could do as he pleased with that shot. Fed can as well but at a lower pace on average.
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I doubt anyone would argue that Federer is strong mentally. He was OK but not much more than that. When Del Potro got on a roll in the US Open final, and fed had problems with the referee, he just crumbled.
 
Heuristic said:
If they can't use their their techniques on pre poly rackets, then he hypotethical is meaningless. Too different eras. It's only a guessing game then how they would hit their groundstrokes.
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Well you can't generate the same spin on full gut so he would have to adjust his grip and probably go semi-western which is similar to his grip now. I don't think his grip is extreme though. That would be if he was full western which is about what Nadal is.
 
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Heuristic said:
If they can't use their their techniques on pre poly rackets, then the hypotethical is meaningless. Too different eras. It's only a guessing game then how they would hit their groundstrokes.
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I think rather than grips, the salient point is grass in the 90s and without poly put the serve at a premium. The guys who challenged Sampras on grass were other big serving guys/serve volleyers, namely Ivanisevic, Krajicek and Rafter. Stich would have caused him problems as well had he not dropped off so soon. On the other hand, Sampras absolutely ran through Agassi at 99 Wimbledon. Remember 99 was Agassi's best year on the tour and he got straight setted there. It was tough generally being a baseliner on grass and hats off to Agassi for being able to win a slam there at all. With Djokovic's terrible net game, he would certainly be exposed on grass. For Nadal, the return position would be a liability on old grass.
 
Heuristic said:
I don't know how that is in response to my question. Either they can use their techniques on outdated rackets or they can't

If they can't, then your guess is as good as mine who wins. Roger Federer would not be the Roger Federer we know.
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Didn't know you asked a question. I was making the point that Djokovic's forehand return nowadays is vulnerable under pressure from Fed's serve.
Also, who says they can't use their techniques on outdated rackets? I just said his grip would be considered extreme back then. The fact is, he would have had a hard time, meaning not that he couldn't use his technique, just that players would exploit it on medium to fast surfaces.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
I think rather than grips, the salient point is grass in the 90s and without poly put the serve at a premium. The guys who challenged Sampras on grass were other big serving guys/serve volleyers, namely Ivanisevic, Krajicek and Rafter. Stich would have caused him problems as well had he not dropped off so soon. On the other hand, Sampras absolutely ran through Agassi at 99 Wimbledon. Remember 99 was Agassi's best year on the tour and he got straight setted there. It was tough generally being a baseliner on grass and hats off to Agassi for being able to win a slam there at all. With Djokovic's terrible net game, he would certainly be exposed on grass. For Nadal, the return position would be a liability on old grass.
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Still, Agassis lifetime record grass was equal to clay... Just about any Federer win at Wimbledon trumphs that one.
 
SaintPetros said:
His forehand return was a liability against Fed in the 2019 final, and generally is whenever Fed serves well.
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Not really. It definitely wasn't a liability in 2015 and I thought Federer served pretty well that day. His whole game was off that day so hard to draw conclusions from that.
 
Heuristic said:
Still, Agassis lifetime record grass was equal to clay... Just about any Federer win at Wimbledon trumphs that one.
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That's a different point altogether. I wasn't comparing Fed to Agassi. I was referring to the argument about Djokovic. Fed showed he can STILL S&V on grass and against the world's best returner at that. I don't think he would be as discomfited on old grass as Nadal or Djokovic. As such, 90s conditions would hurt Djokovic the most. Rebound Ace would not be to his liking as far as movement goes. He would still do well at USO whereas it would be harder for Nadal there than it has been in the current era.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
I think rather than grips, the salient point is grass in the 90s and without poly put the serve at a premium. The guys who challenged Sampras on grass were other big serving guys/serve volleyers, namely Ivanisevic, Krajicek and Rafter. Stich would have caused him problems as well had he not dropped off so soon. On the other hand, Sampras absolutely ran through Agassi at 99 Wimbledon. Remember 99 was Agassi's best year on the tour and he got straight setted there. It was tough generally being a baseliner on grass and hats off to Agassi for being able to win a slam there at all. With Djokovic's terrible net game, he would certainly be exposed on grass. For Nadal, the return position would be a liability on old grass.
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Nadal might or might not do well in the 90s grass, same for Djokovic. They are both fantastic retrievers, which is a nightmare for serve and volleyers. Regardless, Federer beat someone before that who we know would have done well.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
But that isn't even the first instance Fed has wasted match points. He did it in USO 2011 as well and he was 30 then. And er, if it is a cheap shot, what is talking up Fed's serve to such insane levels that it is compared to Sampras? Is it our fault if people like you can't distinguish between the hold game (which is undoubtedly one of the best ever as far as Fed goes) and the serve as a standalone shot? Sampras served way harder. He would go down the T, out wide, he would jam you, would go into your body. He could do as he pleased with that shot. Fed can as well but at a lower pace on average.
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I recall us having a similar discussion previously. I guess we are just going to disagree on this.

The Sampras serve myth does raise some interesting questions on string and racket technology. I mean if he could do all the things you say he could the corollary is that it seems strange that players had less baseline ability given the power, speed, spin and placement they were able to achieve with their serves...
 
YetAnotherFedFan said:
I recall us having a similar discussion previously. I guess we are just going to disagree on this.

The Sampras serve myth does raise some interesting questions on string and racket technology. I mean if he could do all the things you say he could the corollary is that it seems strange that players had less baseline ability given the power, speed, spin and placement they were able to achieve with their serves...
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The conditions and coaching mentality of the game were completely different back then. It favored serve and volley, or aggressive hard court baseline tennis, of which we see little to none of today.
It's like saying it's amazing how little net ability the players of today have given how much pace they can get on their serves.
 
NoleFam said:
Not really. It definitely wasn't a liability in 2015 and I thought Federer served pretty well that day. His whole game was off that day so hard to draw conclusions from that.
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I didn't think Fed's wide serve was clicking particularly well that match. Remember the Cincinnati final?
 
Heuristic said:
Lol. Philipoussis whopped Sampras ass in 99 before he had to retire from injury.
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99 Philippousis=/=2003 Philippoussis who had 2 knee surgeries and hadn't won a title in two years, unless you want to compare 2002 Roddick's US Open performance against Sampras and draw conclusions on that?
I thought not.
 
YetAnotherFedFan said:
I recall us having a similar discussion previously. I guess we are just going to disagree on this.

The Sampras serve myth does raise some interesting questions on string and racket technology. I mean if he could do all the things you say he could the corollary is that it seems strange that players had less baseline ability given the power, speed, spin and placement they were able to achieve with their serves...
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It's not an IF. I have watched him do all the things I mentioned. Here, Techtribal has done a highlights reel of just his second serve aces. I repeat, second serve ACES.


Now, as to why the forehand lagged behind the serve in the 90s is something a coach can answer. If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that it's because you hit the serve from standstill and on edge whereas the forehand is struck on the move and from the outside.
 
SaintPetros said:
99=/=2003, unless you want to compare 2002 Roddick's US Open performance against Sampras and draw conclusions on that?
I thought not.
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He had competitive Wimbledon matches before that too, against Sampras. Roddick beat Philipoussis in 58 minutes at Queens, 2005.
 
Heuristic said:
He had competitive Wimbledon matches before that too, against Sampras. Roddick beat Philipoussis in 58 minutes at Queens, 2005.
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Again, younger Philippousis could be a threat. 2003 Philippousis coming off an injury setback and 2 knee surgeries without winning a title in 2 years isn't comparable.
 
SaintPetros said:
I didn't think Fed's wide serve was clicking particularly well that match. Remember the Cincinnati final?
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Well he served about 67% which is a pretty good number. In Cincy that year he only served 57%. Djokovic returned like a madman in that Wimbledon final so maybe it appeared that Federer didn't serve well.
 
SamprasisGOAT said:
Nadal standing so far back against Sampras would end so badly for nadal. I genuinely think Sampras destroys nadal everywhere but clay. Nadal is made for Sampras. There head to head would be more one sided then Sampras Agassi 20-14.
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I think PETE may even do better than vulturer did on clay vs Rafa. At least he’d go out on his own terms, extreme S&V. Throw the kitchen sink at him etc.
 
NoleFam said:
Well he served about 67% which is a pretty good number. In Cincy that year he only served 57%. Djokovic returned like a madman in that Wimbledon final so maybe it appeared that Federer didn't serve well.
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Could be. I remember the wide serve bringing out weak returns from the Djokovic forehand in the Cinci final. Don't remember it at Wimbledon, but could be because of great returning from Djokovic. I don't remember that match too well because it seemed like it was over really quick.
 
TheFifthSet said:
For serve as a stand-alone shot, historically:

Karlovic
Isner
Ivansievic
Raonic
Arthurs
Becker
Krajicek
Stich
Tanner
Gonzales
Muller
Anderson
Querrey
Ljubicic
Kyrgios
Roddick
Scud
Opelka
Groth
Tilden
Kramer
Johansson
Rusedski
McEnroe
Vines
Guccione

26 off the top of my head, think there’s a few more that I haven’t thought of.

Fed’s is better than lots of big servers though, like Cilic (too erratic, 56.1% career first serves landed) JMDP (big guy with a pedestrian serve for his height actually), Soderling/Tsonga unless they’re redlining etc because what he lacks in pace he makes up for in just about everything else. I’d say his serve is a borderline ATG one.
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You missed Philipoussis too.
 
Heuristic said:
Still a lot of big servers in that top 20..
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No question about it. I don't think Federer's serve strength is pace. Federer's serve isn't interesting at all from a pace perspective. But his slice serve is really good. It swings really good and he can hit it whenever he wants. His placement is really incredible.

His ability to accurately hit the T-serve with a flat serve opens up that wide serve. On the deuce side, the guy can be absolutely lethal.

His big serve weakness is ad-side serving. His wide serve on the ad-side is very "meh". Quite frankly, I think that's why he's blown so many match points on his serve in his career. I wish he'd elect to hit the wide serve on the ad-side as a wide slice serve (which curves into the body of righties)... as opposed to that "meh" kick serve he does.
 
mightyrick said:
No question about it. I don't think Federer's serve strength is pace. Federer's serve isn't interesting at all from a pace perspective. But his slice serve is really good. It swings really good and he can hit it whenever he wants. His placement is really incredible.

His ability to accurately hit the T-serve with a flat serve opens up that wide serve. On the deuce side, the guy can be absolutely lethal.

His big serve weakness is ad-side serving. His wide serve on the ad-side is very "meh". Quite frankly, I think that's why he's blown so many match points on his serve in his career. I wish he'd elect to hit the wide serve on the ad-side as a wide slice serve (which curves into the body of righties)... as opposed to that "meh" kick serve he does.
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Most big servers are proficient at pace, spins, and placement too. That's why it's hard to argue for Fed's serve against anyone of them. But in the list compiled he seems to come in around 17 or 18th greatest server, if we haven't missed anyone. So he is barely top 20 then.
 
mightyrick said:
No question about it. I don't think Federer's serve strength is pace. Federer's serve isn't interesting at all from a pace perspective. But his slice serve is really good. It swings really good and he can hit it whenever he wants. His placement is really incredible.

His ability to accurately hit the T-serve with a flat serve opens up that wide serve. On the deuce side, the guy can be absolutely lethal.

His big serve weakness is ad-side serving. His wide serve on the ad-side is very "meh". Quite frankly, I think that's why he's blown so many match points on his serve in his career. I wish he'd elect to hit the wide serve on the ad-side as a wide slice serve (which curves into the body of righties)... as opposed to that "meh" kick serve he does.
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His deuce side slice serve has always been amazing, it's weird that it failed him twice against Novak in match point situations.
 
In no particular, better serves than Fed :Karlovic, Isner, Harrison, Raonic, Anderson, Querrey, Roddick, Arthurs, Sampras, Scud, Rusedki, Rosset, Ivanisevic, Kyrgios, Krajicek, Opelka, Becker. Fed could make the top 20 but just barely.
 
Red Rick said:
Lol at the poll.

The only poll question is if his serve is better than Safin's or not.

Any of the bottom 5 options are laughable
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Top option isn't too bad, either. But both the top two options, while overall reasonably sensible and plausible, suffer from the problem that they don't make it clear who counts as a big server.
 
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