Info on CPI & rally length evolution over the years?

[Ipsen]

Does anyone have anything of the sort?

I've been looking into CPI data for current and former courts, but the information seems extremely difficult to come by - it's pretty much non-existent for the early 2000s.

Also, I found a very interesting post here about rally length evolution between 1978-2016, but it was based on tennisabstract data and they focused exclusively on GS finals. Would there be a website with rally length stats for the QF/SF matches of Grand Slams in the last 15-20 years?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, though I know how difficult it can be to find such data. Thanks everyone.

 

[slice bh compliment]

Consumer price index.
kidding.

court pace index.
interesting stuff. Watching this thread.

 

[Ipsen]

Consumer price index.
kidding.

court pace index.
interesting stuff. Watching this thread.

Yep, the info is extremely hard to find (probably doesn't even exist prior to 2010) so I'm not surprised by how unsuccessful this thread is turning out to be.

There was data such as ITF classification of different surfaces by then, but even that info was deleted from their website.

 

[Bambooman]

I don't think that's the deciding factor in rally length.

 

[Ipsen]

I don't think that's the deciding factor in rally length.

It is one of them, alongside string technology and ball size.

 

[Bambooman]

It is one of them, alongside string technology and ball size.

What sort of pattern are you looking for?

 

[Ipsen]

What sort of pattern are you looking for?

Not looking for patterns, just want to see how rallies evolve up until today. In an ideal scenario, I'd like to get stats from QF/SF matches from the 4 GS and the Masters Cup since the early 90s, but that's likely impossible.

I'm also looking for CPI index info on older surfaces at the slams and how they evolved.

 

[Ipsen]

Bump

 

[intrepidish]

Bump

So almost the only information I can find on this (and I have looked many times in many languages) is from screen captures from Tennis TV through the years.

I have some but as you might guess, it's not complete and it is of the Masters 1000s.

 

[Ipsen]

So almost the only information I can find on this (and I have looked many times in many languages) is from screen captures from Tennis TV through the years.

I have some but as you might guess, it's not complete and it is of the Masters 1000s.

Don't worry, I'm focused on Grand Slams and ATP Finals, but I understand it's extremely difficult data to find. I will keep bumping the post anyway

 

[intrepidish]

Don't worry, I'm focused on Grand Slams and ATP Finals, but I understand it's extremely difficult data to find. I will keep bumping the post anyway

Please make sure to post whatever you find. I try to keep track of this data but there's no good place to go with it all collected and available, unfortunately. Often, the little information which one sees online about court speed is similar to this sort of thing from Ultimate Tennis Statistics:

Court Speed - Court Speed Index (1 - 100): 80 * cube-root(Ace % * (Service Points Won % - 50%) * (Service Games Won % - 50%)) - 56, where statistics figures are adjusted with server's and returner's relative figure difference averaged by season and surface

 

[Ipsen]

Please make sure to post whatever you find. I try to keep track of this data but there's no good place to go with it all collected and available, unfortunately. Often, the little information which one sees online about court speed is similar to this sort of thing from Ultimate Tennis Statistics:

Court Speed - Court Speed Index (1 - 100): 80 * cube-root(Ace % * (Service Points Won % - 50%) * (Service Games Won % - 50%)) - 56, where statistics figures are adjusted with server's and returner's relative figure difference averaged by season and surface

Yeah, but they don't actually compare the different courtspeeds of the same event throughout the years (or I've been unable to find such comparison), hence their formula becomes irrelevant for our purpose here...

I did find some data from the ITF itself suggesting AO became slower after changing from Rebound Ace to Plexi, and some rumours of the same thing happening at Wimbledon once they changed the grass in 2002, but not a lot more.

 

[Ipsen]

Bump

 

[DMP]

Does anyone have anything of the sort?

I've been looking into CPI data for current and former courts, but the information seems extremely difficult to come by - it's pretty much non-existent for the early 2000s.

Also, I found a very interesting post here about rally length evolution between 1978-2016, but it was based on tennisabstract data and they focused exclusively on GS finals. Would there be a website with rally length stats for the QF/SF matches of Grand Slams in the last 15-20 years?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, though I know how difficult it can be to find such data. Thanks everyone.

I calculated this some years ago. This thread gives a summary and list the original thread where I explained how I did it

Grass and clay are now more similar?

Over 1000s of serves in a tournament, it’s actually a fairly large effect size. Tennis analytics are rudimentary, but often you look for only slightly over 50% in many metrics in say baseball or hockey to find players that will help you win over the long term It's not matching the advantage...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[kevin qmto]

I think speculation is as far as we’re gonna get in this thread.

 

[Ipsen]

I calculated this some years ago. This thread gives a summary and list the original thread where I explained how I did it

Grass and clay are now more similar?

Over 1000s of serves in a tournament, it’s actually a fairly large effect size. Tennis analytics are rudimentary, but often you look for only slightly over 50% in many metrics in say baseball or hockey to find players that will help you win over the long term It's not matching the advantage...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Thanks a lot for the reply. I've been bery busy recently and couldn't answer your comment, my apologies. IIRC, these data were take only from GS finals? Or did you also have data from semifinals and QF? I found the thread very helpful the first time, although using just the final might not be a very representative indicator. Thank you very much.


PS: I wouldn't mind doing a complete analysis myself, could even share the graphs here. The only problem is, I can't find the information I need. Even if we start back in 2000, there's no data besides finals, and sometimes not even those.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

My hunch is that rally length substantially longer than in the 1990s due to multiple factors:
1) Slower HC and grass (clay supposedly faster than before)
2) Superior Speed/defense/athleticism (Big 3 have redefined what this means).
3) Less aggressive tactics (due to above factors and improved racket and string technology charging net much less viable as a strategy).

 

[Ipsen]

My hunch is that rally length substantially longer than in the 1990s due to multiple factors:
1) Slower HC and grass (clay supposedly faster than before)
2) Superior Speed/defense/athleticism (Big 3 have redefined what this means).
3) Less aggressive tactics (due to above factors and improved racket and string technology charging net much less viable as a strategy).

We do have evidence about 3) and 2), but do we have actual evidence of courts slowing down? Besides Wimbledon, of course. That's something I'm looking for, specially when it comes to HC. AO for example was slow af during the 2010-2015 period, but specific data is hard to find. Even comparisons between rebound ace (the surface used at AO until 2007) and plexicushion are hard to come by, except for player reports complaining about how slow the new surface felt.

 

[Ipsen]

Bump bump bump

 

[Ipsen]

Bumpy bump bump