Insane USTA Rule (Or maybe I am the insane one?)

[Lt_Dan4]

Hi all,

I wanted to get some feedback from the community regarding a discussion I've been having with USTA League Programs Director in Colorado.

I am a 4.0 player playing on a league based in Glenwood Springs, CO. We have 6 courts in our area currently due to 3 others being under repair. 3 of our courts are artifical grass that are poorly maintained with the carpet coming up. They are super slick and we had 2 falls last match. None of the players want to play on the surface. The other 3 courts plus the available courts in nearby Carbondale all have permanent pickleball lines.

Due to the USTA rule below, the courts with pickleball lines are not allowed to be used so we are forced by the USTA to play on the more dangerous artifical grass.

My question for the community, does this make sense? I understand the argument of preventing the placement of pickleball lines in the first place in an effort to keep some tennis courts for tennis only. However, what I don't understand is, once the lines are already there, why would you prevent tennis players who want to play tennis from using them?

The response I got from the Director was that I needed to go to my city and have them repaint the courts without lines.

Hoping someone can help me make sense of this. I'm not opposed to preventing pickleball lines but I am opposed to preventing tennis use once the lines are already there.

Anyone able to clarify? Maybe I just don't understand. Seems like USTA is discouraging the playing of tennis.


4.02A Match(es) Played on Unapproved Courts. All facilities are required to provide the minimum number of required courts (See 3.00) without pickleball lines. Teams may not be forced to use unapproved court(s). If an unapproved court is used, all players in the individual match shall be disqualified, only for that match, as it was played on an unapproved court.

 

[drivophd]

4.02A Match(es) Played on Unapproved Courts. All facilities are required to provide the minimum number of required courts (See 3.00) without pickleball lines. Teams may not be forced to use unapproved court(s). If an unapproved court is used, all players in the individual match shall be disqualified, only for that match, as it was played on an unapproved court.

I believe this is not a National rule but adopted only by certain Sections. You could go over the Director’s head to your Section’s Adult League Committee in an attempt to get an exemption, but there’s no guarantee of success there.

 

[Lt_Dan4]

Any insight on contacting that group/person?

 

[socallefty]

I guess players unused to playing on courts with PB lines find it very distracting and this rule is to protect them. For some reason my club decided to paint one court with paddle (or Pop) tennis lines to see if anyone would play it - no one plays Pop tennis and since then only coaches use that court for tennis lessons as no one else wants to play tennis on that court. I had to finish up a doubles match on that court once and did find the extra lines near the service box confusing.

 

[Lt_Dan4]

I guess players unused to playing on courts with PB lines find it very distracting and this rule is to protect them. For some reason my club decided to paint one court with paddle (or Pop) tennis lines to see if anyone would play it - no one plays Pop tennis and since then only coaches use that court for tennis lessons as no one else wants to play tennis on that court. I had to finish up a doubles match on that court once and did find the extra lines near the service box confusing.

The lines certainly can be confusing. But wouldn't you rather have that than a slippery dangerous court?

 

[drivophd]

Any insight on contacting that group/person?

There’s some info/contacts on this page, good luck: https://www.usta.com/en/home/about-...ntain/usta-intermountain-staff-directory.html

 

[McLovin]

My question for the community, does this make sense? I understand the argument of preventing the placement of pickleball lines in the first place in an effort to keep some tennis courts for tennis only. However, what I don't understand is, once the lines are already there, why would you prevent tennis players who want to play tennis from using them?

What’s really dumb about that rule is…why only pickleball lines? What about 10 & under lines? Our indoor courts have regular lines in white, and 10 & under lines in light blue.
Admittedly it took a little getting used to at first, but once the match starts, they fade into the background.

 

[Pass750]

The director needs to use some common sense. Trying to force people to play on unsafe courts makes no sense. Also, there very well likely could be a rule for this too. If both teams are willing to play on the courts with pickleball lines if there is no reasonable alternative, that should be ok for everyone.

 

[Creighton]

The director needs to use some common sense. Trying to force people to play on unsafe courts makes no sense. Also, there very well likely could be a rule for this too. If both teams are willing to play on the courts with pickleball lines if there is no reasonable alternative, that should be ok for everyone.

I feel like this is the solution. If both teams agree with it then it’s fine.

The rule is probably intended to prevent forcing an opposing team to play on the surface.

 

[Lt_Dan4]

I feel like this is the solution. If both teams agree with it then it’s fine.

The rule is probably intended to prevent forcing an opposing team to play on the surface.

100% but he won't even consider it

 

[schmke]

I wrote about Intermountain having it out for pickleball lines a year ago, at the time this was the rule I quoted:

5.02A Match(es) Played on Unapproved Courts. If a home team is unable to provide the minimum number of required courts (See 4.02) without pickleball lines, the visiting team may refuse to play on the unapproved court(s) and claim a win by default for the impacted line(s). If the players agree to play on an unapproved court, the points played will stand.

This rule would allow the teams to agree to play on an unapproved court and the points played (and thus the match) would stand.

But for 2023, it appears they taken it to a new level with the language quoted above. Wow!

 

[Lt_Dan4]

I wrote about Intermountain having it out for pickleball lines a year ago, at the time this was the rule I quoted:

5.02A Match(es) Played on Unapproved Courts. If a home team is unable to provide the minimum number of required courts (See 4.02) without pickleball lines, the visiting team may refuse to play on the unapproved court(s) and claim a win by default for the impacted line(s). If the players agree to play on an unapproved court, the points played will stand.

This rule would allow the teams to agree to play on an unapproved court and the points played (and thus the match) would stand.

But for 2023, it appears they taken it to a new level with the language quoted above. Wow!

Yes, I saw they made the change. Their thinking is so illogical. It's almost like the USTA is trying to promote pickleball and discourage tennis.

 

[Cashman]

Hi all,

I wanted to get some feedback from the community regarding a discussion I've been having with USTA League Programs Director in Colorado.

I am a 4.0 player playing on a league based in Glenwood Springs, CO. We have 6 courts in our area currently due to 3 others being under repair. 3 of our courts are artifical grass that are poorly maintained with the carpet coming up. They are super slick and we had 2 falls last match. None of the players want to play on the surface. The other 3 courts plus the available courts in nearby Carbondale all have permanent pickleball lines.

Due to the USTA rule below, the courts with pickleball lines are not allowed to be used so we are forced by the USTA to play on the more dangerous artifical grass.

My question for the community, does this make sense? I understand the argument of preventing the placement of pickleball lines in the first place in an effort to keep some tennis courts for tennis only. However, what I don't understand is, once the lines are already there, why would you prevent tennis players who want to play tennis from using them?

The response I got from the Director was that I needed to go to my city and have them repaint the courts without lines.

Hoping someone can help me make sense of this. I'm not opposed to preventing pickleball lines but I am opposed to preventing tennis use once the lines are already there.

Anyone able to clarify? Maybe I just don't understand. Seems like USTA is discouraging the playing of tennis.


4.02A Match(es) Played on Unapproved Courts. All facilities are required to provide the minimum number of required courts (See 3.00) without pickleball lines. Teams may not be forced to use unapproved court(s). If an unapproved court is used, all players in the individual match shall be disqualified, only for that match, as it was played on an unapproved court.

Sounds like you don’t have any courts fit for league play

 

[Lt_Dan4]

Sounds like you don’t have any courts fit for league play

The hardcourts with PB lines are in fantastic shape. The PB players probably really enjoy not having to worry about tennis players taking them. However, we have 3 courts that will be completed at the end of June.

 

[Cashman]

The rule is probably intended to prevent forcing an opposing team to play on the surface.

Probably the rule is to prevent having to make local teams comply with the ITF rules for blended lines; i.e.

(Appendix IX)
When sanctioning bodies approve so called “Blended Lines” on courts the following guidelines must be followed:

Colour:

• Within the same colour family as the background playing surface.
• Lighter than the background playing surface.
• Limit on colour variation of +22 points on the L* scale (Add ≤25% by volume of white paint to the background colour)

Pace:

• Within 5 CPR of the playing surface

Dimensions:

• 1.0-1.5 cm narrower than the standard lines.

Marking:

• Terminate 8 cm from intersection with white playing lines.

https://www.itftennis.com/media/7221/2023-rules-of-tennis-english.pdf

Those rules are quite onerous and it is realistically not something that local tennis clubs can enforce where they are not the ones putting down the alternate markings

 

[Lt_Dan4]

Probably the rule is to prevent having to make local teams comply with the ITF rules for blended lines; i.e.

https://www.itftennis.com/media/7221/2023-rules-of-tennis-english.pdf

Those rules are quite onerous and it is realistically not something that local tennis clubs can enforce where they are not the ones putting down the alternate markings - so I would suggest maybe USTA has just banned it outright to save your club the trouble of ensuring compliance

Sounds possible but the other team also agrees that they'd rather play on the courts with the PB lines than the slick dangerous artifical grass ones.

 

[WYK]

Hi all,

I wanted to get some feedback from the community regarding a discussion I've been having with USTA League Programs Director in Colorado.

I am a 4.0 player playing on a league based in Glenwood Springs, CO. We have 6 courts in our area currently due to 3 others being under repair. 3 of our courts are artifical grass that are poorly maintained with the carpet coming up. They are super slick and we had 2 falls last match. None of the players want to play on the surface. The other 3 courts plus the available courts in nearby Carbondale all have permanent pickleball lines.

Due to the USTA rule below, the courts with pickleball lines are not allowed to be used so we are forced by the USTA to play on the more dangerous artifical grass.

My question for the community, does this make sense? I understand the argument of preventing the placement of pickleball lines in the first place in an effort to keep some tennis courts for tennis only. However, what I don't understand is, once the lines are already there, why would you prevent tennis players who want to play tennis from using them?

The response I got from the Director was that I needed to go to my city and have them repaint the courts without lines.

Hoping someone can help me make sense of this. I'm not opposed to preventing pickleball lines but I am opposed to preventing tennis use once the lines are already there.

Anyone able to clarify? Maybe I just don't understand. Seems like USTA is discouraging the playing of tennis.


4.02A Match(es) Played on Unapproved Courts. All facilities are required to provide the minimum number of required courts (See 3.00) without pickleball lines. Teams may not be forced to use unapproved court(s). If an unapproved court is used, all players in the individual match shall be disqualified, only for that match, as it was played on an unapproved court.

It sounds like your courts are terribly maintained. We have only had one major incident in 7 years on our synthetic courts, and it occurred in near freezing weather in December(and the members are informed not to play in such conditions as a matter of course now). They need to be cleaned every year, if not twice a year, and sanded once a month during peak season. You should not be forced to play on dangerous courts.

Here's my local in Ireland the other day:

 

[Lt_Dan4]

It sounds like your courts are terribly maintained. We have only had one major incident in 7 years on our synthetic courts, and it occurred in near freezing weather in December(and the members are informed not to play in such conditions as a matter of course now). They need to be cleaned every year, if not twice a year, and sanded once a month during peak season. You should not be forced to play on dangerous courts.

Here's my local in Ireland the other day:

In the years I've been here, I've never seen them cleaned or sanded. Yours look nice!

 

[J_R_B]

I loathe pickleball as much as anyone, but this seems stupid. They're punishing players because a club or town made the decision to cater to the pickleballers. That's the wrong target.

 

[darkhorse]

Maybe try contacting all of the other captains and poll them if they have have an issue with playing on the courts w/ PB lines. If they all agree that it's OK then I would present that to the LC, and if that doesn't work go to the section.

 

[Lt_Dan4]

Maybe try contacting all of the other captains and poll them if they have have an issue with playing on the courts w/ PB lines. If they all agree that it's OK then I would present that to the LC, and if that doesn't work go to the section.

The other captain is "Rules are rules no matter what"

 

[Lt_Dan4]

I loathe pickleball as much as anyone, but this seems stupid. They're punishing players because a club or town made the decision to cater to the pickleballers. That's the wrong target.

Yep, punishes tennis

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

If you can get the other captains/teams to agree, just use the pickleball line courts and report the scores, USTA will never know. DOH, already tried that, you've got bigger issues than picke ball l ines if the cptains are that strange , yikes.

 

[Airspun]

Just play on whatever courts you want at any time.

 

[Creighton]

If you can get the other captains/teams to agree, just use the pickleball line courts and report the scores, USTA will never know. DOH, already tried that, you've got bigger issues than picke ball l ines if the cptains are that strange , yikes.

It appears the problem is one of his opponents is refusing to agree to play there.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

It appears the problem is one of his opponents is refusing to agree to play there.

Yes, I read that after I typed, sounds frustrating

 

[PurcellPower]

Cancel the league, request the refunds for all the players in the league from the USTA and just have zero play for your district. When they ask, explain why there is no league play citing this rule. If no one can agree to play based on terrible conditions or good conditions with some extra ping pong lines, then there is no point in the league.

Play with ping pong lines > No play in my opinion even though the lines suck.

 

[Lt_Dan4]

If you can get the other captains/teams to agree, just use the pickleball line courts and report the scores, USTA will never know. DOH, already tried that, you've got bigger issues than picke ball l ines if the cptains are that strange , yikes.

That would be a great solution. However, our local coordinator is a captain and would never bend a rule for any circumstance.

 

[Lt_Dan4]

It appears the problem is one of his opponents is refusing to agree to play there.

Opponent was fine with it until she read the USTA. Has no issue with the lines. Just can't do it since against the rules

 

[Lt_Dan4]

Cancel the league, request the refunds for all the players in the league from the USTA and just have zero play for your district. When they ask, explain why there is no league play citing this rule. If no one can agree to play based on terrible conditions or good conditions with some extra ping pong lines, then there is no point in the league.

Play with ping pong lines > No play in my opinion even though the lines suck.

The other captains would rather play on the dangerous courts than violate a rule.

 

[Chalkdust]

Hi all,

I wanted to get some feedback from the community regarding a discussion I've been having with USTA League Programs Director in Colorado.

I am a 4.0 player playing on a league based in Glenwood Springs, CO. We have 6 courts in our area currently due to 3 others being under repair. 3 of our courts are artifical grass that are poorly maintained with the carpet coming up. They are super slick and we had 2 falls last match. None of the players want to play on the surface. The other 3 courts plus the available courts in nearby Carbondale all have permanent pickleball lines.

Due to the USTA rule below, the courts with pickleball lines are not allowed to be used so we are forced by the USTA to play on the more dangerous artifical grass.

My question for the community, does this make sense? I understand the argument of preventing the placement of pickleball lines in the first place in an effort to keep some tennis courts for tennis only. However, what I don't understand is, once the lines are already there, why would you prevent tennis players who want to play tennis from using them?

The response I got from the Director was that I needed to go to my city and have them repaint the courts without lines.

Hoping someone can help me make sense of this. I'm not opposed to preventing pickleball lines but I am opposed to preventing tennis use once the lines are already there.

Anyone able to clarify? Maybe I just don't understand. Seems like USTA is discouraging the playing of tennis.


4.02A Match(es) Played on Unapproved Courts. All facilities are required to provide the minimum number of required courts (See 3.00) without pickleball lines. Teams may not be forced to use unapproved court(s). If an unapproved court is used, all players in the individual match shall be disqualified, only for that match, as it was played on an unapproved court.

The rule itself I can understand, insofar as opponents should not be "forced" to play competitive matches on courts with what they might consider distracting/confusing markings.

However there needs to be some common sense and discretion applied by the local USTA. The USTA rep should look at the courts in question (or a photo) to determine how distracting the PB lines are - I've seen some that are relatively unobtrusive, and some that are hideous. And also, the opposing captain(s) should be given an opportunity to see the courts and decide if they are ok playing on them. If they are, then it would be insane for USTA to enforce the rule.

In your position I would refuse to use the dangerous courts. End of story. I would not want to feel in any way responsible should someone hurt themselves playing on courts I know are dangerous.
So the only options are (1) use the good courts with PB lines, or (2) you don't run a team this season.
I would let the USTA rep and the other captain(s) know where I stand, and then it is what it is.

 

[Chalkdust]

The other captains would rather play on the dangerous courts than violate a rule.

If they would rather not play at all than play on courts that they actually think are ok but that "violate a rule", then you just need to bow out gracefully.
This is rec tennis, meant to be played for enjoyment. Does not seem like the other captains got that memo. You don't need to be humoring them.

 

[Chalkdust]

Dup post

 

[PurcellPower]

The other captains would rather play on the dangerous courts than violate a rule.

Let the other teams play first and get hurt. Then hopefully the other captains will understand that your concerns were legit and that the league needs to revisit the court conditions. Or pull out of the league, citing the reason. Sucks but you are thinking clearly if the conditions are as bad as you claim.

 

[Lt_Dan4]

Let the other teams play first and get hurt. Then hopefully the other captains will understand that your concerns were legit and that the league needs to revisit the court conditions. Or pull out of the league, citing the reason. Sucks but you are thinking clearly if the conditions are as bad as you claim.

Sadly, that might be how it goes. Was still hoping USTA would've agreed to prevent an injury..

 

[romano]

Hi all,

I wanted to get some feedback from the community regarding a discussion I've been having with USTA League Programs Director in Colorado.

I am a 4.0 player playing on a league based in Glenwood Springs, CO. We have 6 courts in our area currently due to 3 others being under repair. 3 of our courts are artifical grass that are poorly maintained with the carpet coming up. They are super slick and we had 2 falls last match. None of the players want to play on the surface. The other 3 courts plus the available courts in nearby Carbondale all have permanent pickleball lines.

Due to the USTA rule below, the courts with pickleball lines are not allowed to be used so we are forced by the USTA to play on the more dangerous artifical grass.

My question for the community, does this make sense? I understand the argument of preventing the placement of pickleball lines in the first place in an effort to keep some tennis courts for tennis only. However, what I don't understand is, once the lines are already there, why would you prevent tennis players who want to play tennis from using them?

The response I got from the Director was that I needed to go to my city and have them repaint the courts without lines.

Hoping someone can help me make sense of this. I'm not opposed to preventing pickleball lines but I am opposed to preventing tennis use once the lines are already there.

Anyone able to clarify? Maybe I just don't understand. Seems like USTA is discouraging the playing of tennis.


4.02A Match(es) Played on Unapproved Courts. All facilities are required to provide the minimum number of required courts (See 3.00) without pickleball lines. Teams may not be forced to use unapproved court(s). If an unapproved court is used, all players in the individual match shall be disqualified, only for that match, as it was played on an unapproved court.

Not the case in NORCAL. Below is a Q&A from the Rules FAQ's for Captains and Players:

Q: May matches be played on courts that are painted with youth tennis/“under 10” lines or on courts marked with pickle ball lines?
A: Yes

 

[tennis3]

The other captain is "Rules are rules no matter what"

Pull out the rulebook and see if you can find some nonsense rules to cause issues for this captain. Just to make their life difficult. If you have the time and energy for this type of nonsense yourself.