Interesting happenings with NorCal 40+ 4.5+ Nationals representative

schmke

Hall of Fame
It does not show up on TennisLink yet, but I am hearing that the team currently listed is not the team that will be going. I do not know all the details, but apparently there were some goings on at Sectionals that resulted in the team that won Sectionals (team A) being disqualified and not allowed to advance to Nationals, the second place finisher (team B) going instead, but things were appealed to National and the decision was just made to reverse the section's decision and allow team A to go after all.

I may write more on my blog as I learn more, but it seems pretty significant for a section to consider something severe enough to disqualify the team, and then National to throw that decision out, especially just 10 days before the event starts.

We wonder why sections are hesitant to DQ/suspend players/captains for what appears to be incorrect self-rating, blatant sandbagging, and other rules or spirit of the rules violations, but perhaps they fear their decisions being overturned and so feel turning a blind eye to things is the easier course of action.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Please do share whatever details you feel you are comfortable in writing on your blog (http://computerratings.blogspot.com). This does sound like a very interesting story.

And I agree, if National is not backing up a reasonable effort by a Section to root out a problem, then there is really no hope that Sections are going to feel empowered to fix the blatent issues we are all seeing. I already feel that Sections are incentivized by their USTA League teams doing well at Nationals, even if those results were gained by nefarious means. (I bet there will be an article on the USTA website lauding the fact that Texas has been dominating Nationals this year on the men's side.)
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
BTW, NorCal's men's 40s 4.5+ team came within a couple points of winning the national title last year. They lost 13-11 in the 3rd set match breaker at 3rd doubles, with the team match tied at 2-2 and all of the teams and spectators watching. That final was one of the highest level matches and collection of talent I've ever seen in USTA League.

(Not that it's the same team, of course... but they have some insanely good talent in that NorCal Section.)
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
And so let me get this straight .... Team A got DQ'ed for some reason by the section, presumably weeks ago. Section says Team B is going to Nationals.

Most likely Team B got flights, hotels, etc. and was planning on going.

At the last minute Nationals says, nope, Team A is going and Team B is staying home ..... so who is going to reimburse Team B for flights, etc.?
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
Not surprising, NORCAL is the same Section that cheated at Nationals 10+ yrs ago and started with a lifetime ban that USTA then made only 5 yrs for worst offender. USTA just showing they just do not care about rules, if someone threatens a lawsuit.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
And so let me get this straight .... Team A got DQ'ed for some reason by the section, presumably weeks ago. Section says Team B is going to Nationals.

Most likely Team B got flights, hotels, etc. and was planning on going.

At the last minute Nationals says, nope, Team A is going and Team B is staying home ..... so who is going to reimburse Team B for flights, etc.?
The timing is right, can't say about the rest, but one would assume the travel plans you mention were done.
 

MaxTennis

Rookie
I have a few friends on the team (Foster City Edgewater Park) that got disqualified. Apparently, the other team (Tiburon) lied about the Foster City team receiving coaching and a spectator from Foster City was distracting Tiburon by throwing his arms around and screaming during the match.

Some people on the Tiburon team are on the NorCal grievance committee, so there is some corruption involved.
 

Vox Rationis

Semi-Pro
I have a few friends on the team (Foster City Edgewater Park) that got disqualified. Apparently, the other team (Tiburon) lied about the Foster City team receiving coaching and a spectator from Foster City was distracting Tiburon by throwing his arms around and screaming during the match.

Some people on the Tiburon team are on the NorCal grievance committee, so there is some corruption involved.
 

MaxTennis

Rookie
And so let me get this straight .... Team A got DQ'ed for some reason by the section, presumably weeks ago. Section says Team B is going to Nationals.

Most likely Team B got flights, hotels, etc. and was planning on going.

At the last minute Nationals says, nope, Team A is going and Team B is staying home ..... so who is going to reimburse Team B for flights, etc.?
Team B is full of wealthy, corrupt people anyway. Serves them right.
 
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OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
I have a few friends on the team (Foster City Edgewater Park) that got disqualified. Apparently, the other team (Tiburon) lied about the Foster City team receiving coaching and a spectator from Foster City was distracting Tiburon by throwing his arms around and screaming during the match.

Some people on the Tiburon team are on the NorCal grievance committee, so there is some corruption involved.
If that was the case, how incredibly petty and how can you have a grievance committee deciding something that directly involves them? That is plain nuts.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
I have a few friends on the team (Foster City Edgewater Park) that got disqualified. Apparently, the other team (Tiburon) lied about the Foster City team receiving coaching and a spectator from Foster City was distracting Tiburon by throwing his arms around and screaming during the match.

Some people on the Tiburon team are on the NorCal grievance committee, so there is some corruption involved.
You likely know more about it than I do, but I find it hard to believe that the GC would deem an entire team ineligible for Nationals because of coaching and a distracting spectator. Either of those should be handled at the event during the match and at most result in a DQ/reversal of that particular match, and from what I know that was not done. I suspect there was something more than this involved.

I'm not debating the decision to DQ the team or reverse the DQ, I don't know which is/was correct, but why does it take 3 months to arrive at a decision, just 10 days before the event. That isn't fair to either team. I can't imagine there is new information available now that changed the situation that wasn't available 2+ months ago.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
I have a few friends on the team (Foster City Edgewater Park) that got disqualified. Apparently, the other team (Tiburon) lied about the Foster City team receiving coaching and a spectator from Foster City was distracting Tiburon by throwing his arms around and screaming during the match.

Some people on the Tiburon team are on the NorCal grievance committee, so there is some corruption involved.
Oh, the horror! Some spectator was trying to distract players on the other team by throwing his arms around and screaming?

 

MaxTennis

Rookie
You likely know more about it than I do, but I find it hard to believe that the GC would deem an entire team ineligible for Nationals because of coaching and a distracting spectator. Either of those should be handled at the event during the match and at most result in a DQ/reversal of that particular match, and from what I know that was not done. I suspect there was something more than this involved.

I'm not debating the decision to DQ the team or reverse the DQ, I don't know which is/was correct, but why does it take 3 months to arrive at a decision, just 10 days before the event. That isn't fair to either team. I can't imagine there is new information available now that changed the situation that wasn't available 2+ months ago.
That match (D2) was in fact DQ'ed/reversed initially, which is how Tiburon got 3-2.

I think the USTA Nationals committee or whatever had the good sense to realize how silly Tiburon's argument was.

I was not at the match. Just repeating whatever my buddies on Edgewater Park said.
 

MaxTennis

Rookie
Also, this reaffirms my belief that tourneys > league.

League sounds like a farce because of all the corruption, sandbagging, gamesmanship, etc.
 

sam_p

Professional
And so let me get this straight .... Team A got DQ'ed for some reason by the section, presumably weeks ago. Section says Team B is going to Nationals.

Most likely Team B got flights, hotels, etc. and was planning on going.

At the last minute Nationals says, nope, Team A is going and Team B is staying home ..... so who is going to reimburse Team B for flights, etc.?
Let's really get this straight - Team A won on the court in July, there were officials at courtside during whatever supposedly happened and DID NOT THINK THERE WAS A PROBLEM. The grievance committee decided there was a problem based on the losing team's accounts despite the officials contemporaneous and eyewitness accounts and the winning team's accounts.

Then it went through an obviously screwed up and legalistic appeals process back and forth three more times before there was finally recourse to Nationals after all appeals exhausted in Norcal...that is why it was decided this week.

And, Team A had also bought their flights and reserved rooms after winning and being initially cleared in the first grievance (before appeals), so shed no tears for Team B...
 

MaxTennis

Rookie
Let's really get this straight - Team A won on the court in July, there were officials at courtside during whatever supposedly happened and DID NOT THINK THERE WAS A PROBLEM. The grievance committee decided there was a problem based on the losing team's accounts despite the officials contemporaneous and eyewitness accounts and the winning team's accounts.

Then it went through an obviously screwed up and legalistic appeals process back and forth three more times before there was finally recourse to Nationals after all appeals exhausted in Norcal...that is why it was decided this week.

And, Team A had also bought their flights and reserved rooms after winning and being initially cleared in the first grievance (before appeals), so shed no teams for Team B...
Congrats on Nationals @sam_p ! You guys rightfully deserve it.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Let's really get this straight - Team A won on the court in July, there were officials at courtside during whatever supposedly happened and DID NOT THINK THERE WAS A PROBLEM. The grievance committee decided there was a problem based on the losing team's accounts despite the officials contemporaneous and eyewitness accounts and the winning team's accounts.

Then it went through an obviously screwed up and legalistic appeals process back and forth three more times before there was finally recourse to Nationals after all appeals exhausted in Norcal...that is why it was decided this week.

And, Team A had also bought their flights and reserved rooms after winning and being initially cleared in the first grievance (before appeals), so shed no tears for Team B...
I was anticipating an epic tale of ratings chicanery involving assumed identities, foriegn nationals, and payoffs to key officials. Instead, it was about a whiny team that couldn't handle distractions, got their ass beat, and then tried to find a back door way to Nationals via a grievance over minor issues... and the failure of the Sectional USTA organization to decisively handle the situation in a prompt manner.

If this was 18s 3.0 or something... I guess I wouldn't be as surprised. But 40 and over 4.5+? That's the highest level in 40s and all of these players should be tournament tough and experienced. Come on guys, time to grow up and win or lose like men. I bet there is some sort of rivalry here, but it sounds like Team A earned it.

 

2ndServe

Hall of Fame
USTA screwed up, why did it take so much time to decide. 4.5+ sectionals was probably 4-5 months ago. That's almost half a year. People booked flights and hotels many moons ago so now they are out that money and another team has to suddenly change their plans to go? They need more competent officials there or some clubs/courts have cameras.
 

sam_p

Professional
match played in mid-July (because districts was delayed due to weather)

grievance filed, decision to clear team in august (Foster City buys tix and gets hotels)

appeal filed and decided late August and sent back to GC for further deliberation.

GC overturns match early September, more documents submitted mid September for appeal

appeal decided late september against FC

team appeals to national USTA (can only happen after local appeals exhausted) documents submitted last week, decision overturned early this week - National USTA has ENTIRE record.

There is obviously more detail but do you think National USTA would overrule if not for egregious problems in local GC and AC procedure?

USTA screwed up, why did it take so much time to decide. 4.5+ sectionals was probably 4-5 months ago. That's almost half a year. People booked flights and hotels many moons ago so now they are out that money and another team has to suddenly change their plans to go? They need more competent officials there or some clubs/courts have cameras.
 
Is it certain there were officials at the match?
Nationals and some sections are moving away from having roving officials and instead having a lone referee.
One would think if there were roving officials, then there should be an unbiased account of events at the match.
 

sam_p

Professional
Is it certain there were officials at the match?
Nationals and some sections are moving away from having roving officials and instead having a lone referee.
One would think if there were roving officials, then there should be an unbiased account of events at the match.
two officials at court at time of incident, both submitted statements at the time. One of them gave further details in a follow up statement. These statements were available at every stage of grievance, you’d think that would settle the issue in a fair process...
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
I have a few friends on the team (Foster City Edgewater Park) that got disqualified. Apparently, the other team (Tiburon) lied about the Foster City team receiving coaching and a spectator from Foster City was distracting Tiburon by throwing his arms around and screaming during the match.

Some people on the Tiburon team are on the NorCal grievance committee, so there is some corruption involved.
You're saying that there are active players sitting on the grievance committee?
And in this case, wouldn't they need to recuse themselves since the case involves a team that they are currently playing for?
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
USTA screwed up, why did it take so much time to decide. 4.5+ sectionals was probably 4-5 months ago. That's almost half a year. People booked flights and hotels many moons ago so now they are out that money and another team has to suddenly change their plans to go? They need more competent officials there or some clubs/courts have cameras.
I was talking to some guy on a 3.5 team that qualified for nationals.
He told me they were having hard time convincing players to make the trip. Think he said about half of their starters would not travel.
 

christo

Hall of Fame
Not surprising, NORCAL is the same Section that cheated at Nationals 10+ yrs ago and started with a lifetime ban that USTA then made only 5 yrs for worst offender. USTA just showing they just do not care about rules, if someone threatens a lawsuit.
I remember this well, I think that team was from Fremont, it was in Hawaii and the whole team "forgot" their i.d. That's because they were all scrubs. USTA doesn't care, only about the Benjamins.
 

kylebarendrick

Professional
I've seen several grievances filed over the last few years in NorCal where the decisions seemed to directly contradict the written rules and past precedents. In each case the grievance committee found in favor of the team from the larger club. I have absolutely no faith in their impartiality and am not surprised that national overruled them in this case.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

Tiafoe

Rookie
That whole NorCal thing sounds like a case of team B wanting to make life difficult for team A because team B was really angry about losing and team A's antics. It would be great to see team A win Nationals after that.
 

tennis4me

Hall of Fame
9 of their 22 4.5s are Appealed ratings including 7 of their top 8 if I found the correct team.
In all three sectional matches, there were at least 4 to 5 Appeal-rated players out of the 8 ppl in the lineup. Perhaps this was also a 'hidden' contributing factor to team B's motivation in filling grievance? I'm curious to see the lineup of the other section winners.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
In all three sectional matches, there were at least 4 to 5 Appeal-rated players out of the 8 ppl in the lineup. Perhaps this was also a 'hidden' contributing factor to team B's motivation in filling grievance? I'm curious to see the lineup of the other section winners.
Middle States' 4.5+ team has 1 4.5A player. He's an older guy (55+) who is a lifelong 4.5 and got bumped last year after a good season and appealed back down to his level.

I was a little surprised this team (DE) won sectionals, but the NJ team underachieved (relative to my expectations anyway) at sectionals and DE beat the Philly team in a really close match. Poster Dizzlmcwizzl is a member of the team that won, although he didn't play in sectionals. I haven't seen him around in a while.
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
Well on the bright side the guys from Tiburon can afford the cancelled reservations. :whistle:
Wasn't there a time in this country, in the good old days, long before 9-11 -- in a time where passengers were not groped by airport security -- where Team A could simply sell their tickets to Team B.

:(
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Wasn't there a time in this country, in the good old days, long before 9-11 -- in a time where passengers were not groped by airport security -- where Team A could simply sell their tickets to Team B.

:(
Doesn't sound like there is going to be a lot of cordiality between these two teams. LOL.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
This is adult recreational tennis right? Travel? Hotels? What???? Why? Just play tournaments if you want to compete.

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norcal

Hall of Fame
This is adult recreational tennis right? Travel? Hotels? What???? Why? Just play tournaments if you want to compete.

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Assuming the guys are friends it sounds like it would be blast. I've gone on surf trips, camping trips, concert trips, etc with guy friends and it's great.
Assuming they are friends lol.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Assuming the guys are friends it sounds like it would be blast. I've gone on surf trips, camping trips, concert trips, etc with guy friends and it's great.
Assuming they are friends lol.
What? Teams at Nationals have rosters that are friends? I thought they were all handpicked mercenaries from all parts of the local area, pulled together by a captain that researched, recruited, and planned going back to 2017?
 
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