Interesting logo dispute development with Nike.

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
Federer might not need to anything and wait and watching now.
NBA player (Leonard) sues Nike today regarding on his personal logo.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/04/sport/kawhi-leonard-sues-nike-spt-intl/index.html

Nike will do whatever they need to win this battle otherwise they will screw so many things.
The case might not be exactly same as Federer but very close so if Leonard win this case, Federer will follow.
The Nike’s outside litigators will alway go for the offensive stance since that how they get paid by the hour! Just one precedent that is set does not make another case will follow it, especially in todays wacky court judges and hand picked jury! Everything seems to get appeal to the next level in the legal system in business litigation matters. This matter can keep going to the Supreme Court and 10+ years of legal in tanglements! Lawyers are the big winners in these cases.
 
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It looks like in this case, they’re arguing that Kawhi created the logo prior to signing with Nike, and let them use it. Fed is different because he was already under contract. The one avenue that he has is that they both used the logo for non Nike items/organizations while under contract.


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big ted

Hall of Fame
I don't see why Nike can't just give Roger the logo.. they can't really use it anymore anyway can they? plus there can't be too hard feelings he's still wearing their shoes.. at the very least let Nike use it for shoes and Uniqlo use it for clothing..lol. give the greatest of all time a break and let him have his initials back.. unless Nike thinks they're going to get him back some day...?
 

brinkeguthrie

Professional
I thought I had read she came up with the initial concept for an RF cologne, and that is indeed true.

NY Times 2009

The idea for a monogram emerged from the logo that Mirka Vavrinec, now Federer’s wife, and her father developed for his fragrance, RF-Roger Federer, introduced in 2003. The result was a freehand squiggle. If you knew what you were looking at, you saw the R and the F; if you didn’t, you didn’t. (A three-letter monogram was apparently never an option because Federer has no middle name.)

Federer liked the approach and suggested that Nike come up with a strategy along the same lines.

“For me, it’s important that a fan can buy something that is related to me,” he said. “Like in soccer, you buy a shirt and it’s got somebody’s name on the back. That’s kind of a cool thing.”

His intent was that a monogram would offer a connection as direct but not as literal as a team jersey.

From their first, Ralph Lauren-like crest, Nike “evolved the concept and made it more relevant to performance products, very modern and very sleek,” said Janet Lucena, the design director for Nike global tennis apparel. Letters are laser-cut instead of embroidered, for a more contemporary look and a lighter weight.

“They’ve eliminated the common element, the vertical stroke, so it’s only the horizontals that differentiate the two letters,” said Michael Bierut, a partner in the New York office of Pentagram, the international design consulting firm. “I think it’s a nice balancing act — the idea of tradition with this serif font and modernity with the missing parts of the letters, asking your mind’s eye to fill in what’s not there.”

The Federer monogram, Bierut said, “is not particularly remarkable as a logo, but within its genre and the overall landscape of sports graphics, I think it’s quite distinctive.”

“The ‘NY’ for the Yankees — that’s a monogram, too,” he continued. “But sports monograms are generally more forthright and blunt. The Federer monogram creates not a sports brand but a fashion brand.”

The font — a slightly redrawn version of Bodoni, which with its cousin Didot has been the basis for logos for Vogue, Giorgio Armani and Louis Vuitton — is “a signifier of fashion at the high end,” Bierut said, adding, “With the sort of enigmatic way it’s been drawn, Federer’s monogram is partaking of the cues of high design.”

Of the monogrammed items Nike has developed for Federer, the cap and the warm-up jacket are for sale. Despite an appeal that may seem limited at retail (attention, Ralph Fiennes: your monogram is waiting), the response has been strong, said a Nike spokeswoman who declined to divulge sales figures. Unlike athletes’ product lines branded with a symbol — René Lacoste’s trademark crocodile or Greg Norman’s shark — Federer’s monogram puts no neutral zone between him and the person wearing it.

“It’s easy for people who have no idea what that alligator means to wear a Lacoste shirt without thinking they’re contributing to the greater glory of another person,” Bierut said. But in Federer’s case, the product is burnishing his image: he is the brand.
 

EloQuent

G.O.A.T.
I thought I had read she came up with the initial concept for an RF cologne, and that is indeed true.

NY Times 2009

The idea for a monogram emerged from the logo that Mirka Vavrinec, now Federer’s wife, and her father developed for his fragrance, RF-Roger Federer, introduced in 2003. The result was a freehand squiggle. If you knew what you were looking at, you saw the R and the F; if you didn’t, you didn’t. (A three-letter monogram was apparently never an option because Federer has no middle name.)

Federer liked the approach and suggested that Nike come up with a strategy along the same lines.

“For me, it’s important that a fan can buy something that is related to me,” he said. “Like in soccer, you buy a shirt and it’s got somebody’s name on the back. That’s kind of a cool thing.”

His intent was that a monogram would offer a connection as direct but not as literal as a team jersey.

From their first, Ralph Lauren-like crest, Nike “evolved the concept and made it more relevant to performance products, very modern and very sleek,” said Janet Lucena, the design director for Nike global tennis apparel. Letters are laser-cut instead of embroidered, for a more contemporary look and a lighter weight.

“They’ve eliminated the common element, the vertical stroke, so it’s only the horizontals that differentiate the two letters,” said Michael Bierut, a partner in the New York office of Pentagram, the international design consulting firm. “I think it’s a nice balancing act — the idea of tradition with this serif font and modernity with the missing parts of the letters, asking your mind’s eye to fill in what’s not there.”

The Federer monogram, Bierut said, “is not particularly remarkable as a logo, but within its genre and the overall landscape of sports graphics, I think it’s quite distinctive.”

“The ‘NY’ for the Yankees — that’s a monogram, too,” he continued. “But sports monograms are generally more forthright and blunt. The Federer monogram creates not a sports brand but a fashion brand.”

The font — a slightly redrawn version of Bodoni, which with its cousin Didot has been the basis for logos for Vogue, Giorgio Armani and Louis Vuitton — is “a signifier of fashion at the high end,” Bierut said, adding, “With the sort of enigmatic way it’s been drawn, Federer’s monogram is partaking of the cues of high design.”

Of the monogrammed items Nike has developed for Federer, the cap and the warm-up jacket are for sale. Despite an appeal that may seem limited at retail (attention, Ralph Fiennes: your monogram is waiting), the response has been strong, said a Nike spokeswoman who declined to divulge sales figures. Unlike athletes’ product lines branded with a symbol — René Lacoste’s trademark crocodile or Greg Norman’s shark — Federer’s monogram puts no neutral zone between him and the person wearing it.

“It’s easy for people who have no idea what that alligator means to wear a Lacoste shirt without thinking they’re contributing to the greater glory of another person,” Bierut said. But in Federer’s case, the product is burnishing his image: he is the brand.
If this is what it looked like originally, it's very different from what Nike eventually designed.
 

Subway Tennis

Hall of Fame
I thought I had read she came up with the initial concept for an RF cologne, and that is indeed true.

NY Times 2009

The idea for a monogram emerged from the logo that Mirka Vavrinec, now Federer’s wife, and her father developed for his fragrance, RF-Roger Federer, introduced in 2003. The result was a freehand squiggle. If you knew what you were looking at, you saw the R and the F; if you didn’t, you didn’t. (A three-letter monogram was apparently never an option because Federer has no middle name.)

Federer liked the approach and suggested that Nike come up with a strategy along the same lines.

“For me, it’s important that a fan can buy something that is related to me,” he said. “Like in soccer, you buy a shirt and it’s got somebody’s name on the back. That’s kind of a cool thing.”

His intent was that a monogram would offer a connection as direct but not as literal as a team jersey.

From their first, Ralph Lauren-like crest, Nike “evolved the concept and made it more relevant to performance products, very modern and very sleek,” said Janet Lucena, the design director for Nike global tennis apparel. Letters are laser-cut instead of embroidered, for a more contemporary look and a lighter weight.

“They’ve eliminated the common element, the vertical stroke, so it’s only the horizontals that differentiate the two letters,” said Michael Bierut, a partner in the New York office of Pentagram, the international design consulting firm. “I think it’s a nice balancing act — the idea of tradition with this serif font and modernity with the missing parts of the letters, asking your mind’s eye to fill in what’s not there.”

The Federer monogram, Bierut said, “is not particularly remarkable as a logo, but within its genre and the overall landscape of sports graphics, I think it’s quite distinctive.”

“The ‘NY’ for the Yankees — that’s a monogram, too,” he continued. “But sports monograms are generally more forthright and blunt. The Federer monogram creates not a sports brand but a fashion brand.”

The font — a slightly redrawn version of Bodoni, which with its cousin Didot has been the basis for logos for Vogue, Giorgio Armani and Louis Vuitton — is “a signifier of fashion at the high end,” Bierut said, adding, “With the sort of enigmatic way it’s been drawn, Federer’s monogram is partaking of the cues of high design.”

Of the monogrammed items Nike has developed for Federer, the cap and the warm-up jacket are for sale. Despite an appeal that may seem limited at retail (attention, Ralph Fiennes: your monogram is waiting), the response has been strong, said a Nike spokeswoman who declined to divulge sales figures. Unlike athletes’ product lines branded with a symbol — René Lacoste’s trademark crocodile or Greg Norman’s shark — Federer’s monogram puts no neutral zone between him and the person wearing it.

“It’s easy for people who have no idea what that alligator means to wear a Lacoste shirt without thinking they’re contributing to the greater glory of another person,” Bierut said. But in Federer’s case, the product is burnishing his image: he is the brand.
This is the logo you are referring to:

This is different from the Nike property.

If Roger wants to use Mirka's Eau De toilette logo I'm sure it's available lol.

If he wants the logo Nike's team designed and owns, he can, and SHOULD, pay for it.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Federer might not need to anything and wait and watching now.
NBA player (Leonard) sues Nike today regarding on his personal logo.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/04/sport/kawhi-leonard-sues-nike-spt-intl/index.html

Nike will do whatever they need to win this battle otherwise they will screw so many things.
The case might not be exactly same as Federer but very close so if Leonard win this case, Federer will follow.
I would love to see the huge RF logo with uniqlo products. It would look really good. I think it could boost their sales by 3000 %
 

Rhino

Legend
Really expected to see Fed back with his logo by now, it's been over a year since he stepped out in Uniqlo.
 

Subway Tennis

Hall of Fame
What did people think of the Federer shirts from a while back that had a tasteful treatment of the Federer signature and Uniqlo logo in a branding design lockup together?

I didn't mind that, and I thought it could be used very effectively in the short term in lieu of the Nike RF logo.
 

MasturB

Legend
Fed just needs to make a new logo.

I was never a fan of that logo. I'm not even a Nadal fan but I bought 2 of his hats because the Bull logo wa actually really cool. I've never liked any logos that have letters/initials in them. The RF, ND, and AM logos are so boring.

Jumpman Logo is classic because you KNOW it's Jordan's silhouette. The Bull logo is great because it symbolizes Nadal perfectly.

A blended mix of the letters R and F were completely uninspiring. He needs something better.
 

mpournaras

Hall of Fame
Fed just needs to make a new logo.

I was never a fan of that logo. I'm not even a Nadal fan but I bought 2 of his hats because the Bull logo wa actually really cool. I've never liked any logos that have letters/initials in them. The RF, ND, and AM logos are so boring.

Jumpman Logo is classic because you KNOW it's Jordan's silhouette. The Bull logo is great because it symbolizes Nadal perfectly.

A blended mix of the letters R and F were completely uninspiring. He needs something better.
It was fresh when he did it FIRST. AM and ND are weak ass copies

Its elegant and visually symmetrical even though it isn't really. Very good logo whether you like him or not.
 

MasturB

Legend
It was fresh when he did it FIRST. AM and ND are weak ass copies

Its elegant and visually symmetrical even though it isn't really. Very good logo whether you like him or not.
It was ok when it came out but it has not aged very well at all.

For a player as elegant, classic, and historic as Roger he deserves something new to symbolize his greatness.
 

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
Fed just needs to make a new logo.

I was never a fan of that logo. I'm not even a Nadal fan but I bought 2 of his hats because the Bull logo wa actually really cool. I've never liked any logos that have letters/initials in them. The RF, ND, and AM logos are so boring.

Jumpman Logo is classic because you KNOW it's Jordan's silhouette. The Bull logo is great because it symbolizes Nadal perfectly.

A blended mix of the letters R and F were completely uninspiring. He needs something better.
The bull logo you think is so cool was stolen from Jack Links beef jerkey. Google it and you'll see it's almost identical.
 

AMGF

Professional
I believe Nike deserve to keep the RF logo if they want to. Companies invest millions on top players sponsorships, it's their stuff. Athletes get money in exchange for their name, face etc. When Federer decided to go with Uniqlo he also gave up the rights on Nike proprietery logo. He decided to leave Nike.

Now, maybe he thought Nike would give him (and consequently Uniqlo) their RF logo. That was foolish of Roger. It's a business, he should know, he got a fortune out of that deal. Or maybe he thought Nike had no rights over that logo because it's his initials. Nike doesn't own initials, it owns the RF logo. Or maybe he thought, hey I made Nike a ton of money, they'll be cool with me leaving for a competitor that just offered more money even if Nike supported me for all my carreer. Whatever he thinks, I believe Nike will win. They own the logo and if Roger really wanted to keep that logo, he had to think about it before signing with Uniqlo.

He can now maybe buy the logo back from Nike, or deal with Uniqlo to give back royalties for the logo. Or man up, assume his decision and forget about that logo. I'm sure any student in design could make a cooler, new RF/Roger/Fed logo and move on.
 

Subway Tennis

Hall of Fame
It was a while ago now, but the most transparent explanation of who had control of the RF logo for all practical purposes came from Roger himself.

"The RF logo is with Nike at the moment, but it will come to me at some point. I hope rather sooner than later, that Nike can be nice and helpful in the process to bring it over to me."

Nike may want to retain control. Who knows? Nike can retain it as a commercial property and use it to launch a heritage line with Roger if he were to return to Nike once he has run out his Uniqlo contract.
 

AMGF

Professional
Your premise is that Nike is the clear owner of the logo. Is there any proof that that is the case?

:cool:
Well Nike knows for sure and don't seem to want to let it go. Even if they can't profit from it anymore. So my guess is yes they own it.

Roger is an awesome player, but I don't believe he has designed the logo himself. The only thing that might go for him is if he drew a rough design back then and Nike clean it up to get the actual logo. Then maybe Roger has a snowball chance in hell to recover it. But proving that will be hard, while Nike can probably give the name of the employees that worked on that as well as the many iterations and all the data/knowledge surrounding it. I'm curious to see how it turns out, but I believe it will be on Nike's terms.
 

AMGF

Professional
It was a while ago now, but the most transparent explanation of who had control of the RF logo for all practical purposes came from Roger himself.

"The RF logo is with Nike at the moment, but it will come to me at some point. I hope rather sooner than later, that Nike can be nice and helpful in the process to bring it over to me."

Maybe Nike will want to hold onto it? Nike can hang onto that commercial property and use it to launch a heritage line with Roger if he were to return to Nike once he has run out his Uniqlo contract.
If Federer actually said that, he basically confirms Nike owns the logo rights.
Yeah I'm sure Nike will be nice and and helpful in helping Uniqlo profit from a design Nike pushed and promoted for years. I don't believe it will happen unless Uniqlo/Roger pay for it.
 

blablavla

Semi-Pro
If Federer actually said that, he basically confirms Nike owns the logo rights.
actually it doesn't.

You don't know what was the agreement.
Nike could have licensed the logo for a certain period.
And they could in theory write there, that in order to switch the logo to another company before end of the agreement, a compensation has to be paid.
If you want to sell something, you need to promote it. I doubt that it is enough to put the logo.
There was PR made, it has a cost.
There were sales efforts, it has a cost.
Administration, to manage the financial flows between Nike and retail and manufacturing.
And so on.
So, Federer can be the owner of the logo, but he might not be ready to pay that compensation.
And Uniqlo might have agreed that they pay him in bulk, and stay away from the logo dispute.

But as I haven't seen the deal, I can only make assumptions why Federer says that currently the logo is with Nike and why he is so confident that sooner or later it will be his.
 

kimguroo

Legend
Nike registered RF logo trademark and RF logo is belong to Nike.

Samething with Kawhi.
Very similar case.
Kawhi created his logo initially but Nike refined then registered his logo.
Nike countersued to block use of Kawhi’s logo.

Mirka might create initial RF logo but probably Nike refined RF logo then registered RF logo.
Nike spent time and money to develop RF logo so RF logo should not be free.
Uniqlo will not pay for it and I don’t think Federer will pay for it.
RF logo will be a good negotiating tool for Nike after Uniqlo contract in my opinion.
After uniqlo contract, a few free millions from Nike will not be bad for Federer too.
 

Subway Tennis

Hall of Fame
If Federer actually said that, he basically confirms Nike owns the logo rights.
Yeah I'm sure Nike will be nice and and helpful in helping Uniqlo profit from a design Nike pushed and promoted for years. I don't believe it will happen unless Uniqlo/Roger pay for it.
Agree
 

AMGF

Professional
actually it doesn't.

You don't know what was the agreement.
Nike could have licensed the logo for a certain period.
And they could in theory write there, that in order to switch the logo to another company before end of the agreement, a compensation has to be paid.
If you want to sell something, you need to promote it. I doubt that it is enough to put the logo.
There was PR made, it has a cost.
There were sales efforts, it has a cost.
Administration, to manage the financial flows between Nike and retail and manufacturing.
And so on.
So, Federer can be the owner of the logo, but he might not be ready to pay that compensation.
And Uniqlo might have agreed that they pay him in bulk, and stay away from the logo dispute.

But as I haven't seen the deal, I can only make assumptions why Federer says that currently the logo is with Nike and why he is so confident that sooner or later it will be his.
I agree. No one here knows the details surounding this. No one really knows what Roger meant exactly or why he felt confident to get the logo rights back.
 

AMGF

Professional
1-I am also surprised that you speak in detail about what Nike can or cannot do when there is no public information about how the logo was even created. The only available info is that Federer said that he expects that the logo returns to him in the future. What that phrase means is unclear.

2-I didn't get your whole passage about anyone giving anything to someone else for free. I don't believe that any of the sides in that matter has even hinted at something like that.

3-As for whether Federer created the logo: that is also unknown, but I suspect that that would mean little, if he cannot prove it and Nike patented it. Of course, Nike has created many logos, so them creating it wouldn't also surprise anyone.
I added numbers just so it is easier to reply.
1- I don't have any details. I just went with different ways Nike could decide to act upon Roger's request to get his logo back. Nike could surprise many of us and just give the logo to Roger. I'm only speculating on the different outcomes.

2- It's just the way Roger phrased the "The logo is with Nike at the moment but it will come back to me at some point." I understand this at it is not mine but it will come back to me as I believe I can get an agreement. If he wanted to buy it back, he'd probably say, it is not mine at this point, but we will try to get it back from Nike. Or maybe something like we're in discussion with Nike to get the rights back. Maybe I'm reading wrong and maybe the logo gets back to him by contract somewhere down the line as blablavla suggested.

3-Totally agree. I would suspect that there was an army of lawyers at Nike that took all necessary measures to protect Nike from these kind of things. Unless specified otherwise, I'm pretty sure Nike doesn't give any logo to any athletes. The Kawhi deal is gonna be interesting to watch.

I do believe it would be easy to come up with some kind of logo that wouldn't infringe with Nike's "RF" should Roger/Uniqlo really wanted it.
 

kimguroo

Legend
If fed wants new logo, he should spend money to make his own new logo.
Adidas made a logo for Djokovic then he moved to ST.
ND created his own logo and use the logo with uniqlo and Lacoste since it’s own by Djokovic.

That will be easiest solution. There are many designers who have brilliant ideas.
Honestly if I were Fed, I won’t pay attention too much on his own logo. Just let it go and concentrating on GS title.
I think that’s what happens now.
He is not Dimitrov who cares too much of what he wears instead of matches.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
Well Nike knows for sure and don't seem to want to let it go. Even if they can't profit from it anymore. So my guess is yes they own it.

Roger is an awesome player, but I don't believe he has designed the logo himself. The only thing that might go for him is if he drew a rough design back then and Nike clean it up to get the actual logo. Then maybe Roger has a snowball chance in hell to recover it.
Doesn't matter who designed it. Federer was a superstar by the time it came along so he wouldn't have entered into any deal that didn't leave him with a ton of leverage, part-ownership of it, and an agreed way to handle any end of deal situation like we have since had.

The logo has no value for Nike since without Federer they can't use it at all. It has value for Federer since it can be used as his personal stamp on ranges of clothing/gear. That gap in value is where their discussions would be.

My guess is Federer could use the logo now, or soon, but they're creating a period of non-use of it so that when they do eventually use it there will be a clearer distinction from it's life at Nike, and also more built up demand for it.

Additionally. I'd also guess that any previous deal would factor in that ranges are designed over a year ahead of time, and production is even done 6-9 months ahead depending on the product, so any logo usage deal would have to factor that in so when he left there would be a gap for Nike to sort any changes and sell existing ranges. It's a reasonable expectation imo.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
If Federer actually said that, he basically confirms Nike owns the logo rights.
Yeah I'm sure Nike will be nice and and helpful in helping Uniqlo profit from a design Nike pushed and promoted for years. I don't believe it will happen unless Uniqlo/Roger pay for it.
Not so. He said it's "currently with Nike..." To me that could easily mean - and this has been discussed at-length previously here - that Nike has the rights to it's use and that those rights would lapse eventually, hence Federer's phrasing.
 
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