Is a slice 2nd serve more effective than kick against players better than you?

[EddieBrock]

I'd say my game is very low 4.5 or high 4.0 and when I play 4.0 and 4.5 players my 2nd serve usually works in getting the point started. Not a lot of missed returns, but neither one of us usually gets ahead much in the point.

When I've played a few 5.0 players they destroy my kick 2nd serve most of the time. They take it off the bounce before it gets up high and have it right in their wheelhouse and crush return winners or offensive shots I can barely get my racket on. The only time I stand a chance with it is if I mix it up better by going close to the lines or right into their body.

With a slice 2nd serve it stays low and even though they'll hit an aggressive return I think the fact they have to hit up means they're not hitting as many outright winners although they're still putting me on defense.

Is this true for most players playing against a player a level or more better than you? Does that mean my kick serve is still comparatively weak? I know Berdych did a kick 2nd serve to the backhand 99% of the time and most pros do that more often than not and they're not eating the returns the way I am.

Most of the time when you see high level player male players their kick 2nd serve gets the point to neutral, right? How do they keep their opponent from crushing their kick 2nd serves?

 

[eah123]

Kick serve is the slowest serve. Slice is relatively faster. So not surprising that kick is easiest to attack and this is true at the pro level as well.

At the higher levels you really need to mix both serves in as second serves to avoid being predictable and getting either one crushed. Of course, the harder you can hit each serve, the better. Also, throw in some flat serves with a little spin for second serves, which can prevent your opponent from camping out inside the baseline on second serves.

 

[zaph]

My reading on this is you slice is just better than your kick serve. That is assuming you're not double faulting with it and effectively hitting more of a first serve with your slice.

I am not convinced that the kick serve is any easier to attack. I mean if you don't get enough on it, it is going to sit up and that will be easy for a good player to deal with. However the same is true of the slice. Assuming you're a righty, if you don't put enough on it it is going straight into the forehand, which is also asking for trouble.

 

[zaph]

Kick serve is the slowest serve. Slice is relatively faster. So not surprising that kick is easiest to attack and this is true at the pro level as well.

At the higher levels you really need to mix both serves in as second serves to avoid being predictable and getting either one crushed. Of course, the harder you can hit each serve, the better. Also, throw in some flat serves with a little spin for second serves, which can prevent your opponent from camping out inside the baseline on second serves.

For a second serve? The slice serve is fundamentally less reliable because it has less net clearance. Sure you can hit harder but a second serve has to go in, so most of us will have to take something off it to achieve that. The thing about the kick/topspin serve, is the harder you hit, the safer it should be. At least in theory. The harder you hit, the more topspin to bring it down.

You're not trying to beat your opponent with pace, you're trying to do them with spin, like a slower bowler in cricket. A ball that comes at shoulder height or above, especially if it has some side on it, it isn't easy to attack.

 

[Idaho MEP]

At 4.0, a mediocre kick in the middle of the box is a decent 2nd serve. Moving up...

1. More action on the kick
2. Occasional slice to keep them off balance
3. More precise placement

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

My reading on this is you slice is just better than your kick serve. That is assuming you're not double faulting with it and effectively hitting more of a first serve with your slice.

I am not convinced that the kick serve is any easier to attack. I mean if you don't get enough on it, it is going to sit up and that will be easy for a good player to deal with. However the same is true of the slice. Assuming you're a righty, if you don't put enough on it it is going straight into the forehand, which is also asking for trouble.

I agree, without more information. There are kick serves that are "no pressure" and relaxing to return and there are kickers that are annoying to return. I think OP, you've figured out your slice is a better option for now.

 

[socallefty]

A kick serve will bother your higher level opponents if it kicks up enough higher than their optimal hitting zone, has enough pace where they can’t easily move in and crush it on the rise and you can locate it closer to the wide/T lines when needed if body serves are not working. You probably don’t have enough pace and location accuracy with your kick serve whereas maybe you are able to hit slice closer to the lines.

When I play better opponents who are crushing returns, I try to serve closer to the lines and deeper on body serves than I do at my level - in addition, on 1st serves, I try to hit a bit harder. I change my mix of spins and targets based on the particular opponent anyway as everyone has preferences on what serves they return the best.

I’ve posted previously that the biggest difference when you go up a level at advanced levels are the serve and returns getting more potent including 2nd serves/returns. Higher level opponents take control of the point pattern rightaway with their first shot. The nice thing about playing higher level opponents is that they expose flaws and give you a honest scorecard of the quality of each of your shots - Federer probably thought he had a good BH before he started playing Nadal and Djokovic.

 

[LOBALOT]

I think you kind of answered your own question. If it is working for you stick with it. If not change.

If the kick works great. If not try the slice and if that works then great. If not try something else.

 

[jimmy8]

When their level is higher, they know they're going to win so they can go for return winners more than if they were playing their own level. Their serve, groundstrokes, volleys are all better than yours so they can go for it more. And they're 5.0, they know how to put away slow serves. You probably need more speed and maybe more spin. And you need to mix the spin, hit a half kick/half slice sometimes. Hit a slice sometimes. Mix up your placement. Or maybe stop playing 5.0s until you get to 5.0.

 

[PKorda]

yes your kick sounds weak but you are not alone here, it's difficult to hit a good kick serve. another option is hitting a top slice which is safer and maybe mixing that in with a regular slice.

 

[kayak4water]

If the strings skinned the ball from 8 to 2 instead of from 7 to 1,would you get some of that second serve safety and a lower-than-kick bounce? . This from one who's only played for three years and mostly Australian/regular doubles.

Humbly yours

 

[LeeD]

What serve you choose DEPENDS on not only your strengths, but just as importantly, on the strengths of your opponent.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

If the strings skinned the ball from 8 to 2 instead of from 7 to 1,would you get some of that second serve safety and a lower-than-kick bounce? . This from one who's only played for three years and mostly Australian/regular doubles.

Humbly yours

The old American Twist serve appears to have had a lower bounce than the modern kick serve. From what I understand, the American Twist had considerably less topspin that the modern kick. The brush angle may have been something like 8 to 2.

You might need to arc such a serve a bit higher to get the safety margin that you would get from a topspin or topslice serve.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Note that Nick contradicts himself in this video. Early on, he indicates the the Am Twist is identical to the kick and topspin serves. But then later in the vid, he makes an a distinction between Am Twist and kick / topspin serves

 

[Zodd]

It seems like, as you suggest yourself, that you are not getting enough action on your kick serve in order for it to be effective, esp. against that particular opponent or that level of opponents if others on his level also can take advantage of your kick serve in a similar manner

Also the opponent having to return your slice serve hitting up sounds like either you slice him out very wide or that you hit the slice 2nd with less pace.


With the caveat of not knowing your technique or how hard you hit your serves, two things you could try are:

1. Record yourself serving so that you see what angle (vertical / horizontal) you are hitting your kick serve - might be you need to hit up on quite a bit more for it to be effective as a kick serve. Could also be that you need more RHS.

2. Practice/experiment with hitting a faster pace 2nd serve (kick or slice) - not quite your 1st serve speed but at a safer percentage around 75-85 % basically - a good option to avoid the standard 1st/2nd serve pattern and great to have as an option for days when the serve is less dependable. This can also help you to find the amount of action needed for the kick to be effective.

I started out hitting my 2nd serves with more slice than top spin and it took me a long time of gradual improvement to hit up on my 2nd serve enough for it to really kick. Alongside that improvement it became much more dependable and also started getting me free points.

 

[Zodd]

For a second serve? The slice serve is fundamentally less reliable because it has less net clearance. Sure you can hit harder but a second serve has to go in, so most of us will have to take something off it to achieve that. The thing about the kick/topspin serve, is the harder you hit, the safer it should be. At least in theory. The harder you hit, the more topspin to bring it down.

+1

Due to the arc/net clearance (given that it's struck w path/angle enough down to up) the kick serve has so much more margin. When faced with a 2nd serve, I can go after a kick much more aggressively than a slice while still maintaining some margin of error.

 

[McGradey]

One consideration not often talked about is that the kick serve has high margin for error in terms of net clearance, but low margin for error in terms of quality, ie. a mediocre kick serve makes you instantly vulnerable. The slice serve is opposite in this regard; it’s easier to hit a slice serve that won’t be attacked, but it’s also a bit riskier because it doesn’t naturally dip over the net.

I use both types of serve on the second serve and I find more than anything that variety is what keeps me safe when facing a consistently aggressive returner. You’ve gotta change things up if they’re getting in the zone.

 

[socallefty]

I use both types of serve on the second serve and I find more than anything that variety is what keeps me safe when facing a consistently aggressive returner. You’ve gotta change things up if they’re getting in the zone.

Yes, variety is under-rated on serves. Nothing better as a returner than a server who has one type of 1st serve, one type of 2nd serve and serves to the same locations the whole match.

 

[Bud]

Low slice is a better serve unless you have an excellent kick serve. They are way more difficult to attack since you have to come way under the ball and lift it up.

I always tell beginning players to keep the serve low with a straight trajectory. Soft serves with an arc over the net and a high bounce are sitters begging to be hit hard.

 

[Dragy]

Low slice is a better serve unless you have an excellent kick serve. They are way more difficult to attack since you have to come way under the ball and lift it up.

Typical slower slice serve still bounces high enough to take it from at least 2' well inside the court. To stay lower, it must be really low over the net, and have pure sidespin or a notch of underspin. It comes down to expecting it - and take control with a FH.

Factors that favor using slice second serves against :
- being able to vary it and disguise, if just a bit
- opponent tending to run around his BH a lot, opening FH corner
- fast low bounce courts
- great consistency with faster lower slice, which you can execute throughout the match and not DF
- particular opponent having issues handling slice serves

 

[EddieBrock]

It seems like, as you suggest yourself, that you are not getting enough action on your kick serve in order for it to be effective, esp. against that particular opponent or that level of opponents if others on his level also can take advantage of your kick serve in a similar manner

Also the opponent having to return your slice serve hitting up sounds like either you slice him out very wide or that you hit the slice 2nd with less pace.


With the caveat of not knowing your technique or how hard you hit your serves, two things you could try are:

1. Record yourself serving so that you see what angle (vertical / horizontal) you are hitting your kick serve - might be you need to hit up on quite a bit more for it to be effective as a kick serve. Could also be that you need more RHS.

2. Practice/experiment with hitting a faster pace 2nd serve (kick or slice) - not quite your 1st serve speed but at a safer percentage around 75-85 % basically - a good option to avoid the standard 1st/2nd serve pattern and great to have as an option for days when the serve is less dependable. This can also help you to find the amount of action needed for the kick to be effective.

I started out hitting my 2nd serves with more slice than top spin and it took me a long time of gradual improvement to hit up on my 2nd serve enough for it to really kick. Alongside that improvement it became much more dependable and also started getting me free points.

I think something between my normal 1st (slice or flat) and kick 2nd is good for variety. I remember the look of surprise on my opponents face when I did a slice down the T on the ad side.

Based on what I've read here I need to keep working on my kick serve as well as mix up my 2nd serve more against better opponents. At 4.0/4.5 my 2nd serve was almost like a no brainer just kick to the BH every time and I got the point started.

 

[optic yellow]

Yes, variety is under-rated on serves. Nothing better as a returner than a server who has one type of 1st serve, one type of 2nd serve and serves to the same locations the whole match.

It's just like pitching.

 

[LuckyR]

I'd say my game is very low 4.5 or high 4.0 and when I play 4.0 and 4.5 players my 2nd serve usually works in getting the point started. Not a lot of missed returns, but neither one of us usually gets ahead much in the point.

When I've played a few 5.0 players they destroy my kick 2nd serve most of the time. They take it off the bounce before it gets up high and have it right in their wheelhouse and crush return winners or offensive shots I can barely get my racket on. The only time I stand a chance with it is if I mix it up better by going close to the lines or right into their body.

With a slice 2nd serve it stays low and even though they'll hit an aggressive return I think the fact they have to hit up means they're not hitting as many outright winners although they're still putting me on defense.

Is this true for most players playing against a player a level or more better than you? Does that mean my kick serve is still comparatively weak? I know Berdych did a kick 2nd serve to the backhand 99% of the time and most pros do that more often than not and they're not eating the returns the way I am.

Most of the time when you see high level player male players their kick 2nd serve gets the point to neutral, right? How do they keep their opponent from crushing their kick 2nd serves?

This is exactly my experience. Likely less because of the lack of pace of kick serves but rather their flight trajectory being loopy, which is great for consistency but less so for fending off aggressive returns.

 

[mental midget]

Low slice is a better serve unless you have an excellent kick serve. They are way more difficult to attack since you have to come way under the ball and lift it up.

I always tell beginning players to keep the serve low with a straight trajectory. Soft serves with an arc over the net and a high bounce are sitters begging to be hit hard.

100%. kick serves are only good…if they’re good, and it’s probably the thing you see the least of, even up to the 5.0 level. if a guy can hit a true, whizzing kick with a ton of movement in the air and a somewhat off-center bounce, then sure. but most kick attempts i see are as you said, just slow, arcing things with a reasonable bounce—perfect for absolutely teeing off on.

if you’ve got a good slice with some pace, that’s great. aim it into the body and you’ll get very few aggressive returns.