Is Agassi on the juice?

[Kevin Patrick]

From The Statesman: "A controversial new book, jointly written by former Swedish tennis star Magnus Norman and Swedish journalists Mr. Jonas Arnesen and Mr. Patrick Cederlund entitled Tennis off the Record claims that Andre Agassi could have perhaps figured among seven players, who tested positive in tests conducted between August 2002 and May 2003. However, the Association of Tennis Professionals pulled a curtain of silence over the tests in order to avoid a scandal of epic proportions and to protect a great tennis personage, the book claims...The authors will appear before an international sports conference in Copenhagen next month to put forth their controversial claims."

http://www.tennis-x.com/story/2005-10-10/d.php

 

[DashaandSafin]

Aww cmon KP. We all know the guy is probably the hardest worker on tour. Its pretty much common knowledge that he works extremly hard. Besides, if he did take 'roids, we all know Steffi would'nt be satisfied

 

[ChicagoJack]

Prune juice.

 

[Ravi]

...claims that Andre Agassi could have perhaps...[/url]

"Could have perhaps"?? Let that be the book title.

Could Norman perhaps be a scumbag? Signs point to yes.

 

[LendlFan]

Sounds like the guy that came out against Lance Armstrong and you see where that got him with all his credible evidence.

 

[FiveO]

"Could have perhaps"?? Let that be the book title.

Could Norman perhaps be a scumbag? Signs point to yes.

But weren't Americans saying the same thing about Jose Canseco (sp?) when he first started naming names in Major League Baseball's steroid scandal? At best, the evidence will be circumstantial or anecdotal but it isn't the first time AA and possible links to steroid use have come up. Magnus Norman played on the tour. He had, perhaps still has, access. Maybe he has an alterior motive. Maybe he's got an axe to grind. Maybe he's just telling what he knows. If he doesn't offer proof his "allegation" will be dismissed like Canseco's was initially. IF there is corroboration it will be another story. Many Argentine's were reputed to be some of the other "hardest workers on tour". Turns out they had a little help from their local pharmacists.

For AA and the sport's sake I hope it isn't proven to be true, but I've been disappointed before.

 

[Ravi]

Canseco didn't say anything as mealy-mouthed as "could have perhaps". He says that he personally injected McGwire, excuse my supersexy double-entendre.

 

[hoosierbr]

AA is tested as much, if not more than, anyone else on tour. With the new and ever-evolving technology that is being used to test for banned substances, trust me, he would have been caught by now. Besides, Andre's trainer, Gil Reyes, a former UNLV trainer, is one of the most respected in sports.

Sounds like Magnus is looking for some publicity now that his career is over. Sad. So sad.

 

[jhhachamp]

I would not be surprised at all to find out that AA has cheated.

 

[Grimjack]

AA is tested as much, if not more than, anyone else on tour. With the new and ever-evolving technology that is being used to test for banned substances, trust me, he would have been caught by now.

Nobody's saying he wasn't tested. In fact, they're saying he WAS tested, tested positive, and that tennis ignored it because they had more to lose by reporting it than by exposing it.

Now, whether there's any truth to that is a matter of conjecture at this point.

But consider:

1) This isn't the 70's any more. You don't see a lot of Rosewalls and Connorses playing till they're 40, because this is the era of mega-fitness pro sports. One can't get to -- or stay at -- the top any longer without taking training both on and off the court VERY seriously.

2) This not only separates the hard workers from the sloths in ways that tennis couldn't in years past. It's a simple human fact that it also separates the young from the old.

3) The precise age at which the inevitable decline in maximum physical output will occur is far from certain, far from guaranteed, and probably different in each sport. But the fact that in modern tennis you see VERY few people continue to excel much past 30 suggests that in our sport, that peak occurs no later than the late 20's, and the decline that inevitably follows is rapid.

4) Andre is succeeding at peak level WAY past that, in an era when nobody else does any more, and is doing so in conjunction with rumors of development of almost NFL-ish strength.

Is the evidence circumstantial? To be sure. Is it entirely without substance? Not in the least. One needn't look like a circus freak to be a juicer. There are benefits to the body -- and in particular to the recovery systems -- that go well beyond the ability to develop action figure musculature, and when somebody shows these benefits at a time when his biological clock suggests he shouldn't be able to, it might merit deeper investigation.

 

[hoosierbr]

Give me a break. I've worked in D.C. and I now work in Hollywood. There is no way, NO WAY, that if Andre tested positive that the ATP could have concealed it for this long. There is no such thing as a secret any more, espeically not of this magnitude. Not buyin' it. Sorry.

 

[hoosierbr]

I also wanted to add that I agree that most athletes don't last far past 30. But I just saw Roger Clemens pitch in the playoffs. He's past 40, still one of the elite and no one has accused him of doping,

 

[Yours!05]

I'd be interested to find out, more from the general doping angle. From what I see US athletics has probably protected stars, at least until very recently. And I don't see anything particularly different about tennis administration, back a few years.

BTW, Oz cycling is so dirty it's not funny...

 

[FiveO]

AA is tested as much, if not more than, anyone else on tour. With the new and ever-evolving technology that is being used to test for banned substances, trust me, he would have been caught by now. Besides, Andre's trainer, Gil Reyes, a former UNLV trainer, is one of the most respected in sports.

Sounds like Magnus is looking for some publicity now that his career is over. Sad. So sad.

A decent point. I AM NOT SAYING AA IS USING. However, there are at least two things to keep in mind when adopting the "he can't be because would have been caught by now" mindset:

1) Do you believe that the wave of players on tour suddenly being exposed as having abused performance enhancing drugs began using those drugs the week they got caught? Or do you believe that they had been using for a while and the regimen they had been using was finally detected by newer testing methods? Or maybe that they concluded that they could stay one step ahead of the testing even if they may have unofficially been warned to knock it off? And would someone with AA's resources in both cash and expertise (Reyes' knowledge) be better/worse positioned to stay ahead of that testing curve?

2) The ATP has done it's own testing to this point. The ATP is not only players it's the tournament owners/directors. It can be argued that the ATP has a vested interest in not "catching" a personality like Agassi because Agassi and a few other personalities=gate=money. "Catching" someone of Agassi's popularity and import to the game wouldn't seem to be in the best interest of the game as the ATP sees it.


For perspective, which of these statements works better for you:

a) Barry Bonds has never used steroids.

b) Barry Bonds has never been caught using steroids.

One is "correct" but many others believe the alternative is true.

 

[Chadwixx]

does the atp do their own tests or another orgainization for them?

i wouldnt be shocked if he was doping.

btw alot of ppl say clemens is doping, major league baseball (much like tennis and every other sport that brings in cash) wont tarnish their own image and risk losing money. if u think these guys put the sport above the business u have alot to learn.

why would they shoot themselves in the foot?

 

[Chadwixx]

Aww cmon KP. We all know the guy is probably the hardest worker on tour. Its pretty much common knowledge that he works extremly hard. Besides, if he did take 'roids, we all know Steffi would'nt be satisfied

have ever seen agassi show affection for graf? i dont keep up with his personal life but i wouldnt even know they were married if the announcers didnt mention it.

why is agassi the hardest worker on tour? because pmac says it over and over?

 

[hoosierbr]

A decent point. I AM NOT SAYING AA IS USING. However, there are at least two things to keep in mind when adopting the "he can't be because would have been caught by now" mindset:

1) Do you believe that the wave of players on tour suddenly being exposed as having abused performance enhancing drugs began using those drugs the week they got caught? Or do you believe that they had been using for a while and the regimen they had been using was finally detected by newer testing methods? Or maybe that they concluded that they could stay one step ahead of the testing even if they may have unofficially been warned to knock it off? And would someone with AA's resources in both cash and expertise (Reyes' knowledge) be better/worse positioned to stay ahead of that testing curve?

2) The ATP has done it's own testing to this point. The ATP is not only players it's the tournament owners/directors. It can be argued that the ATP has a vested interest in not "catching" a personality like Agassi because Agassi and a few other personalities=gate=money. "Catching" someone of Agassi's popularity and import to the game wouldn't seem to be in the best interest of the game as the ATP sees it.


For perspective, which of these statements works better for you:

a) Barry Bonds has never used steroids.

b) Barry Bonds has never been caught using steroids.

One is "correct" but many others believe the alternative is true.

1. I'm not saying that the players who have been caught started using them recently. I'm sure they were using them for months, even years. However, as much as people keep banging on about how AA is in a safer position b/c he's rich and famous you forget that it's people like AA that people MOST want to catch. The only thing better about building up a star is tearing him down. And I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that AA can hush people with his popularity, money and resources. You can't buy everybody. Someone, somewhere will talk and those results would have gotten out. Tournament promoters have more to lose by protecting an Agassi for so long b/c if he were caught the promoter's stock/credibility would go down the toilet. They couldn't promote or get money for anything for a long while after that. Better to get in front of the beast than get eaten.

2. The ATP has a vested interest in keeping the sport clean and its integrity in tact. Look at what's happened to baseball and Bud Selig. I don't know of anyone, fan or not, that doesn't see the the sport as dirty and the higher-ups as dirtbags for keeping their mouths closed and protecting their players. There's more to lose in the long run by keeping dirty players protected. And the long run will always be what matters. 10 years down the line, not 10 months down the line.

Finally, please stop throwing this Barry Bonds garbage around. It's an insult to Agassi, Lance Armstrong and every other CLEAN athlete to be associated with that sleaze.

BTW, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? It seems that the name of the game is guilty until proven innocent. And if that doesn't work then we'll sling as much dirt, rumor and innuendo as needed to get people doubting.

 

[Kevin Patrick]

Here are some more details(any Swedes on the board read the book yet?)
When I read Canas' appeal last month, it cited an ATP official's past incident with Canas. Apparently quite a few players were testing positive for nandrolene in '02/'03. Ulihrach/Rusedksi were cleared because it was found that nandrolene was present in supplements atp trainers were giving players. Canas tested positive as well during this brouha. His levels were on the high side, but they let it go do to a number of players being positive.
It's likely that some players had positives due to supplements, & some were just on the juice, but got off because of this controversy.

"This latest controversy involving the book, which has been serialised in Svenska Dagbladet, a Swedish newspaper, comes days after the International Tennis Federation (ITF) announced that it would manage drugs tests in all men’s events from 2006.

The allegations in Tennis Off The Record, co-authored by Jonas Arensen and Patrik Cederlund, centre on the nandrolone controversy in the sport in 2003 and 2004. Analysis overseen by International Doping Tests and Management, a Swedish laboratory, found that a large number of players had been found positive for the anabolic steroid.

The book states that the ATP’s Anti-doping tribunal normally took about a year to reach a decision, but concluded in only five weeks that the ATP’s own staff had caused the adverse findings by inadvertently giving players contaminated supplements. The book states that the remaining tablets and drinks of the type handed out by the trainers were then cleared by laboratory analysis but the ATP had dropped the case.

Out of the seven positive findings, only one player, Bohdan Ulihrach, of the Czech Republic, was penalised and he was later exonerated.

An ATP spokesman said: “It is impossible for anyone to cover this up. Far too many people knew about the tests, there were too many cross-checks, and the World Anti-Doping Agency was informed. I cannot comment about the book because I have not read it.”


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5205-1818566,00.html

 

[Kevin Patrick]

Check out page 9 on this document:

"many players who in 02/03 experienced nandrolene readings which were not reported as analytical positives but were very close to being so"

http://www.atptennis.com/en/common/TrackIt.asp?file=/en/antidoping/canas_tribunal.pdf

 

[Aeropro joe]

Agassi is one the hardest trainers on tours, that's how he managed to stay in the game competively for so long. the juice doesnt do that for ya. also, agassi isn't known for his power, but for his great return of serves. probably the best that i can remember

 

[FiveO]

1. I'm not saying that the players who have been caught started using them recently. I'm sure they were using them for months, even years. However, as much as people keep banging on about how AA is in a safer position b/c he's rich and famous you forget that it's people like AA that people MOST want to catch. The only thing better about building up a star is tearing him down. And I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that AA can hush people with his popularity, money and resources. You can't buy everybody. Someone, somewhere will talk and those results would have gotten out. Tournament promoters have more to lose by protecting an Agassi for so long b/c if he were caught the promoter's stock/credibility would go down the toilet. They couldn't promote or get money for anything for a long while after that. Better to get in front of the beast than get eaten.

You missed my point. I'm not suggesting that AA has the POWER or MONEY to hush people. The potential hush would be self imposed by the ATP powers whose self interest is what is held closest to their hearts. I'm suggesting it could be a very symbiotic relationship in that the ATP could view it as what is good for the ATP is good for Agassi. If you recall the scuttlebutt regarding Michael Jordan's first retirement being somewhat motivated by his penchant for gambling. The theory then was by taking himself from the limelight at that time removed his personal habits, which may have included gambling on his own sport, from being under the microscope. Now, if true, who else had a vested interest in MJ not being exposed? The NBA. It was rumored that their internal security had the evidence. It wasn't MJ dictating the terms and I'm not suggesting AA could have extorted such a stance from the ATP. It could have been the ATP concluding it was the best stance for itself just as the NBA may have with MJ.

2. The ATP has a vested interest in keeping the sport clean and its integrity in tact. Look at what's happened to baseball and Bud Selig. I don't know of anyone, fan or not, that doesn't see the the sport as dirty and the higher-ups as dirtbags for keeping their mouths closed and protecting their players. There's more to lose in the long run by keeping dirty players protected. And the long run will always be what matters. 10 years down the line, not 10 months down the line.

This is not a transparent system in the least. Right now the ATP tests and if they must adhere to the new Health Privacy rules its probably by colated by number. I'd bet there are a very select few who would "know" one way or the other. Every tennis player is an island. The more successful the more isolation they can achieve. Agassi has had the same "inner circle" of two people for years. The potential for secrecy is about as good as it gets. He's got the money to stay at the cutting edge of anything including P.E. drugs if he chose to. If he were to obtain it through some doctor through prescription, its protected by physician/patient confidentiality=secret. If he chose to obtain P.E. drugs through illicit means I would venture to say that if someone as close to AA as say Reyes who procured a substance for him I doubt a guy like Gil would ever be the one to give AA up.

Finally, please stop throwing this Barry Bonds garbage around. It's an insult to Agassi, Lance Armstrong and every other CLEAN athlete to be associated with that sleaze.

BTW, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? It seems that the name of the game is guilty until proven innocent. And if that doesn't work then we'll sling as much dirt, rumor and innuendo as needed to get people doubting.

You missed and made my point here. Firstly I included in both my prior posts that AA has in fact not been proven to have done anything wrong. Further, I hope AA hasn't cheated and I hope I won't be disappointed to learn otherwise. It was your premise (paraphrased here) that if he hasn't been caught by now he couldn't have done anything wrong, that I addressed in this thread.

Oh BTW, the purpose of mentioning Barry Bonds in this thread was to bait the response you gave. "That sleaze" has not been proven to have done anything wrong, either. However, it's easier for most (including yourself) to conclude Bonds did abuse P.E. drugs because, (a) he presents with the commonly understood effects of steroids, and (b) because we don't like him.

Most of us "like" Jordan, Armstrong and Agassi. Liking someone is not proof of anything but it does factor in the court of public opinion. Good for Jordan, Armstrong and Agassi, bad for Bonds.

 

[NoBadMojo]

If I was an ATP player and was playing clean, I would be pretty bent up about being beaten by a chemically enhanced opponent..thats for sure..either let them all do it if they wish to abuse themselves or make it so that nobody can do it...maybe Magnus is bent up because he played clean his whole career..who knows
The rumour about AA has been circulating for a long time amongst people who go deeper than their involvement on the TW board. I hope it isnt true, who knows if it is true, but I would not be surprised if he is a juicer..In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if he is the biggest juicer on tour. There is a huge benefit to have AA playing ATP tourneys and to have him get deep into the draw because of his drawing power, so wouldnt surprise me in the least if governing body(s) would turn a blind eye. other guys on the tour work as hard and are just as fit..you just happen to hear about Andres work regime because he's Andre and who knows if it is even true..i say this because i am good friends with a traner on the ATP and WTAtour and he tells me how hard some of these guys and girls work. saying Roger Clements can perform at a high level at an older age is nothing at all like a tennis player performing amongst the best in the world at an old age....a pitcher has a team behind him and 4 days rest after pitching...tennis plaers have to come back the next day..at 35, doubtful Andre could do that unaided in light of how the game is played these days. Also, I dont think we can dispute that Andre loves to compete and looks for every edge..look how he is alway tweaking his gear...wouldnt surprise me if he's been tweaking his body to a large degree chemically for a long time..wouldnt surprise me at all..it would be a sad day for tennis if he got caught..if his head strarts looking like your halloween pumpkin ala Barry Bonds, we may just have our answer

 

[joesixtoe]

you have to remember agassi has been training with gil for like 15 plus years now, so its not like he hasn't been training for a long time to reach the physical point he is at now. two he has already acomplished so much, why does he need the steriods? three, if he has been using them, well he is 35, so let him lol...

 

[callitout]

Canseco didn't say anything as mealy-mouthed as "could have perhaps". He says that he personally injected McGwire, excuse my supersexy double-entendre.[/QUOTE

Supersexy if the thought of 2 hairy steroid monsters shagging turns you on.
But like they say to each his own.

 

[STRman]

I can remember back when AA was being soundly thrashed by a lot of players and he was tearfully talking like his career was just about over. Then he teamed up with Gil the Gym man and BANG, within 8 months he had bulked up unbelievably. This was about the same time he dissapeared from the main tour and only played satelites. I thought back then he was on the juice but Balco and a few others proved that athletes could get away with it.

 

[tennis4losers]

You missed my point. I'm not suggesting that AA has the POWER or MONEY to hush people. The potential hush would be self imposed by the ATP powers whose self interest is what is held closest to their hearts. I'm suggesting it could be a very symbiotic relationship in that the ATP could view it as what is good for the ATP is good for Agassi. If you recall the scuttlebutt regarding Michael Jordan's first retirement being somewhat motivated by his penchant for gambling. The theory then was by taking himself from the limelight at that time removed his personal habits, which may have included gambling on his own sport, from being under the microscope. Now, if true, who else had a vested interest in MJ not being exposed? The NBA. It was rumored that their internal security had the evidence. It wasn't MJ dictating the terms and I'm not suggesting AA could have extorted such a stance from the ATP. It could have been the ATP concluding it was the best stance for itself just as the NBA may have with MJ.

You are a complete dumb fack


This is not a transparent system in the least. Right now the ATP tests and if they must adhere to the new Health Privacy rules its probably by colated by number. I'd bet there are a very select few who would "know" one way or the other. Every tennis player is an island. The more successful the more isolation they can achieve. Agassi has had the same "inner circle" of two people for years. The potential for secrecy is about as good as it gets. He's got the money to stay at the cutting edge of anything including P.E. drugs if he chose to. If he were to obtain it through some doctor through prescription, its protected by physician/patient confidentiality=secret. If he chose to obtain P.E. drugs through illicit means I would venture to say that if someone as close to AA as say Reyes who procured a substance for him I doubt a guy like Gil would ever be the one to give AA up.



You missed and made my point here. Firstly I included in both my prior posts that AA has in fact not been proven to have done anything wrong. Further, I hope AA hasn't cheated and I hope I won't be disappointed to learn otherwise. It was your premise (paraphrased here) that if he hasn't been caught by now he couldn't have done anything wrong, that I addressed in this thread.

Oh BTW, the purpose of mentioning Barry Bonds in this thread was to bait the response you gave. "That sleaze" has not been proven to have done anything wrong, either. However, it's easier for most (including yourself) to conclude Bonds did abuse P.E. drugs because, (a) he presents with the commonly understood effects of steroids, and (b) because we don't like him.

Most of us "like" Jordan, Armstrong and Agassi. Liking someone is not proof of anything but it does factor in the court of public opinion. Good for Jordan, Armstrong and Agassi, bad for Bonds.

 

[callitout]

Does anyone know where the specifics of the atp testing process is listed. Just wondering how steroid inhalers for asthma could potentially trigger a postive test and yet the cortisone or depomedrol shots agassi is receiving wouldnt.

Lots of people are talking as if Agassi having a motive to cheat (that he is competitve and wants to win) is evidence that he did cheat. We'll see if theres any hard evidence.

 

[FiveO]

You are a complete dumb fack

Evidently you have a different opinion. Why not state it?

 

[hoosierbr]

You missed my point. I'm not suggesting that AA has the POWER or MONEY to hush people. The potential hush would be self imposed by the ATP powers whose self interest is what is held closest to their hearts. I'm suggesting it could be a very symbiotic relationship in that the ATP could view it as what is good for the ATP is good for Agassi. If you recall the scuttlebutt regarding Michael Jordan's first retirement being somewhat motivated by his penchant for gambling. The theory then was by taking himself from the limelight at that time removed his personal habits, which may have included gambling on his own sport, from being under the microscope. Now, if true, who else had a vested interest in MJ not being exposed? The NBA. It was rumored that their internal security had the evidence. It wasn't MJ dictating the terms and I'm not suggesting AA could have extorted such a stance from the ATP. It could have been the ATP concluding it was the best stance for itself just as the NBA may have with MJ.



This is not a transparent system in the least. Right now the ATP tests and if they must adhere to the new Health Privacy rules its probably by colated by number. I'd bet there are a very select few who would "know" one way or the other. Every tennis player is an island. The more successful the more isolation they can achieve. Agassi has had the same "inner circle" of two people for years. The potential for secrecy is about as good as it gets. He's got the money to stay at the cutting edge of anything including P.E. drugs if he chose to. If he were to obtain it through some doctor through prescription, its protected by physician/patient confidentiality=secret. If he chose to obtain P.E. drugs through illicit means I would venture to say that if someone as close to AA as say Reyes who procured a substance for him I doubt a guy like Gil would ever be the one to give AA up.



You missed and made my point here. Firstly I included in both my prior posts that AA has in fact not been proven to have done anything wrong. Further, I hope AA hasn't cheated and I hope I won't be disappointed to learn otherwise. It was your premise (paraphrased here) that if he hasn't been caught by now he couldn't have done anything wrong, that I addressed in this thread.

Oh BTW, the purpose of mentioning Barry Bonds in this thread was to bait the response you gave. "That sleaze" has not been proven to have done anything wrong, either. However, it's easier for most (including yourself) to conclude Bonds did abuse P.E. drugs because, (a) he presents with the commonly understood effects of steroids, and (b) because we don't like him.

Most of us "like" Jordan, Armstrong and Agassi. Liking someone is not proof of anything but it does factor in the court of public opinion. Good for Jordan, Armstrong and Agassi, bad for Bonds.

I'm not going to bother to refute your arguments. I respect anyone that has a different opinion than I do, however, I am bothered by how quickly people want to jump on the bandwagon and start raising doubts about an athlete's integrity without proof. Just because they can and have nothing else better to do.

Oh, BTW, you're wrong about Bonds not being found guilty of taking steroids. He said in his grand jury testimony that he had "unknowingly" been using steroids in his training regimen. If he didn't know he was being juiced he either doesn't have a mirror in his house, is dense or is lying.

And finally, saying you made that statement about Bonds to "bait" my response is not only childish it also serves no purpose.

 

[bcslice]

i agree with those on the board who think that agassi would have been caught and exposed by now. if lance armstrong, who is so universally admired (like agassi) has been accused (i would assume unfairly) by l'equipe of doping, it seems that if agassi had tested positive, then he would have been exposed. people are always more eager to tear people down rather than to protect them in these instances.

my guess is that norman is trying to grab some $$ by falsifying these sensationalist claims. seems like sour grapes from a has-been who has faded into oblivion after reaching the french open final in 2000.

 

[iscottius]

I also wanted to add that I agree that most athletes don't last far past 30. But I just saw Roger Clemens pitch in the playoffs. He's past 40, still one of the elite and no one has accused him of doping,

It is widely speculated and there are internet reports that claim Roger Clemens has tsted positive or is using juice

 

[Chadwixx]

Oh, BTW, you're wrong about Bonds not being found guilty of taking steroids. He said in his grand jury testimony that he had "unknowingly" been using steroids in his training regimen. If he didn't know he was being juiced he either doesn't have a mirror in his house, is dense or is lying.

that was the cream, a human growth hormone that cannot be tested for. not sure why ppl dont mention this when debating whether or not he has cheated.

 

[LendlFan]

I would not be surprised at all to find out that AA has cheated.

And why is that? Do you hold some ill will towards Agassi? Or are you simply amazed at his stamina at this stage of his career?

 

[LendlFan]

1. I'm not saying that the players who have been caught started using them recently. I'm sure they were using them for months, even years. However, as much as people keep banging on about how AA is in a safer position b/c he's rich and famous you forget that it's people like AA that people MOST want to catch. The only thing better about building up a star is tearing him down. And I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that AA can hush people with his popularity, money and resources. You can't buy everybody. Someone, somewhere will talk and those results would have gotten out. Tournament promoters have more to lose by protecting an Agassi for so long b/c if he were caught the promoter's stock/credibility would go down the toilet. They couldn't promote or get money for anything for a long while after that. Better to get in front of the beast than get eaten.

2. The ATP has a vested interest in keeping the sport clean and its integrity in tact. Look at what's happened to baseball and Bud Selig. I don't know of anyone, fan or not, that doesn't see the the sport as dirty and the higher-ups as dirtbags for keeping their mouths closed and protecting their players. There's more to lose in the long run by keeping dirty players protected. And the long run will always be what matters. 10 years down the line, not 10 months down the line.

Finally, please stop throwing this Barry Bonds garbage around. It's an insult to Agassi, Lance Armstrong and every other CLEAN athlete to be associated with that sleaze.

BTW, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? It seems that the name of the game is guilty until proven innocent. And if that doesn't work then we'll sling as much dirt, rumor and innuendo as needed to get people doubting.

Haven't interacted with you before so Welcome

I, agree 100% with your words and would have said them myself but you beat me to it. sure it's a good argument to consider Agassi's draw power but the Promoters & Sponsors have much more to loose (as you said) in allowing a pass. Nothing of that magnitude would stay quite. That's like asking Monica Lewinsky to keep a secret.

Curious though why someone would implement Mr. It's About The Kids Agassi.
But again like I said eariler, the same crap happened to Lance Armstrong. Kinda reminds me of the MacCarthy Era hunting down Communist.

 

[35ft6]

Agassi is one the hardest trainers on tours, that's how he managed to stay in the game competively for so long. the juice doesnt do that for ya. also, agassi isn't known for his power, but for his great return of serves. probably the best that i can remember

Yes, that's exactly what the juice would allow him to do -- to train harder. It helps you recover faster. People seem to think that steroids is only for creating ridiculous muscle mass, but basically it allows people to recover faster and work out harder.

Occam's Razor. If Agassi is juicing, it would certainly explain a lot. It would also explain his bond with Gil. I don't even think I'm being cynical, I don't have to worship Agassi in order to admire him. Hero's have flaws??? Wow. We've discussed this subject before on different threads and many good points were made, and most of them were more or less how does Agassi defy nature when Chang, Pete, Courier, and Lendl couldn't? Do people think he really just works that much harder? But that's not the incredible part, his work ethic. The incredible part is that a 35 yo's body shouldn't recover quickly enough to allow his insane workouts.

edit: and yes, hypothetically, if it were revealed that Agassi was juicing it would be a monumentally crippling blow to the sport of tennis... I'm trying to think of anything worse that could happen to tennis other than all the top players dying in a plane crash or something...

 

[35ft6]

But again like I said eariler, the same crap happened to Lance Armstrong. Kinda reminds me of the MacCarthy Era hunting down Communist.

Actually, it's more like the Holocaust. Come on, let's put this into perspective.

Does anybody remember the story about Rios witnessing a strange event at a tournament once where Agassi was asked to do an on the spot drug test and Andre claimed his kids were being kidnapped and ran out of the room? It's been posted before, translated from a Spanish magazine or something. But I'm sure the "innocent until proven guilty" people will take the liberty of calling Rios a liar.

 

[FiveO]

...Oh, BTW, you're wrong about Bonds not being found guilty of taking steroids. He said in his grand jury testimony that he had "unknowingly" been using steroids in his training regimen. If he didn't know he was being juiced he either doesn't have a mirror in his house, is dense or is lying.

And finally, saying you made that statement about Bonds to "bait" my response is not only childish it also serves no purpose.

For the record you've misinterpreted almost everything I said. Never said that AA used P.E. drugs. There is no proof he has. There is also no proof to the contrary. The onus is not on Agassi to prove it to anyone. I'm not on anyone's anti-Agassi bandwagon. My point was the fact that he has never tested positive for a P.E. drug, is not proof he hasn't used, that you made it out to be. I merely offered any opinion of how it could happen that way. You disagree. That's fine.

Your response to Bonds was my point. Bonds has not been convicted of anything. In fact the Federal Government was not even able to gain an indictment, try as they did. Bonds never admitted knowingly (as you said) taking steroids to the grand jury. He admitted taking "the clear" and "cream". Federal prosecutors told Bonds they were in fact an undetectable steroid and human growth hormone. Bonds denied knowing they were steroids or other illegal performance enhancing substances. Yeah, do I believe he took the crap knowingly? Sure. Which is why you, I and most everyone else has convicted him in the court of public opinion. The Grand Jury testimony was leaked which is the only way we know what he said. The Balco defendants refused to testify against any athletes and now with the plea arrangement they made we will never know the full truth. Bonds has never tested positive and he has never admitted it.

As far as mirrors go, muscle size is not the exclusive proof of steroid use. Petr Korda was suspended from the ATP tour for testing positive for steroids and he was a human stick figure.

I apologize if you were offended by me baiting the answer from you I feel most people would give. The point is most of us believe Bonds is guilty yet there isn't a test result out there that shows he is.

Again, is Agassi guilty of anything? No. Is there proof one way or another. No. Is it possible? I think there is a plausible scenario in which it could be. You think otherwise. Again, that's okay too.

 

[hoosierbr]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Barry Bonds thing.

But after reading this post I think we agree on most of the issues. Sorry if I was a hothead. AA is one of my guys, even though I don't know him, and I take it personally when someone trashes him without proof, especially "journalists" who don't need facts these days to write a story.

 

[LendlFan]

Let's assume for a moment the worse. If there is some sort of undeniable proof regarding Agassi, what would be his punishment? Lifetime banishment from Tournaments? Two Year suspension? Non-Admittance into the Hall of Fame?

Andre Agassi is at the doorstep of retirement as we speak. I was thinking that if he had won the USO he might have called it a day. But Agassi knows he has a good chance at the AO to maybe get one more Major. If he is successful, then he's probably going to bow out. But again, I would think Andre would want the USO Crowd to be his Swan Dance or song whatever...

So a 2yr. suspension what probably equal to lifetime for Andre since that would put him at 37. Also, I do not believe he would be banished from the Hall of Fame regardless. Although a guilty verdict (of sorts) would make any such ceremony shallow at best.

 

[Ronaldo]

This guy is no TO, http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=51998234&cdi=0

 

[couch]

I think Agassi does a lot more "training" than most players these days. He doesn't play that many tournaments any more because his body can't take it. He has said this many times. He has said he knows how to hit a tennis ball because he's been doing it his whole life. The thing that is important right now is making sure he is in the best shape he can be in.

And if you remember, Agassi has taken a lot of time off in his career so as far as the Changs, Couriers, etc. not playing as long, I think that has a lot to do with it.

 

[GregOz]

Good time to remember that no-one has said categorically what those players tested positive for. The list of banned substances is quite a lengthy one and people have returned a positive result for standard cold and flu remedies. So, to presume that we're talking about performance enhancing drugs isn't necessarily the case.

In my limited understanding drugs can enhance performance by aiding power, endurance or recovery. Certainly useful to get a player back up again for their next match but by no means essential. In days gone by certain players were able to withstand the rigours of playing almost 52 weeks a year on the old pro tour and over 5 sets per match. A few of them - Rosewall, Gonzalez, Ulrich, Segura - were able to compete at the highest level way past Agassi's age. Key ingredients were a good run with injury and a simple game style.

In other sports, notably Australian Rules - which is a far more physically demanding sport (aerobically and anaerobically) than most others- there have been a few exceptional players who managed to compete into their 40's at the highest level without the suggestion that they used anything other than a very fortunate set of genes. If it can happen there, it can happen in other sports as well.

Now none of that is to suggest one way or the other that a certain player isnt using a performance enhancing drug.

It's just playing devil's advocate and putting out a few other possibilities, instead of leaping to blindly criticise or defend.

 

[jhhachamp]

And why is that? Do you hold some ill will towards Agassi? Or are you simply amazed at his stamina at this stage of his career?

I have nothing against AA, in fact I love watching him play. I would definitely say I am amazed at his stamina at this stage in his career though, and that is why it wouldn't surprise me. I agree with most of what Grimjack and FiveO have said on this matter.

From what I have read on steroid use in baseball, it seems that the juicers are almost always one step ahead of the testers. They are always coming out with new undetectable versions of the illegal stuff. Because of this, I feel it is likely that many many athletes have cheated, much more than the amount that got caught. I am not saying that doping in tennis compares to that of baseball. The tennis system of testing is much better. However, no system is perfect, and I think that many tennis players and athletes in all other sports have cheated and will never be caught.

 

[whistleway]

Seriously, If you run ATP and your most famous star on the dope, what would you do?

I am not saying, he is or he is not. Just saying that it is not improbable as some posts imply.

 

[LendlFan]

Hey Gang ~ Let's not forget Agassi is getting some cortazone shots and probably other stuff related to his back problems. I wonder if anything that's going into him right now might be causing concern amongst other Players?

OR .. maybe something he's taking is on the list? As for Chang & Courier, I really have no clue as to way those guys walked away. Especially Courier, who I in great shape and still to this day can compete with the best of them. I do not believe it has anything to do with not being physically capable of competing.

I, for one will not believe it even if I hear news of it in the Press. And by the way, this Board is all I've heard of this. Something that big regarding Andre Agassi would be a Breaking News Flash every five minutes.

 

[BaseLineBash]

I think this thread is ridiculous. Agassi has been a lot of things, but a cheater? C'mon! I seriously doubt Andre would cheat himself, tennis and the fans.

 

[Aeropro joe]

Yes, that's exactly what the juice would allow him to do -- to train harder. It helps you recover faster. People seem to think that steroids is only for creating ridiculous muscle mass, but basically it allows people to recover faster and work out harder.

Occam's Razor. If Agassi is juicing, it would certainly explain a lot. It would also explain his bond with Gil. I don't even think I'm being cynical, I don't have to worship Agassi in order to admire him. Hero's have flaws??? Wow. We've discussed this subject before on different threads and many good points were made, and most of them were more or less how does Agassi defy nature when Chang, Pete, Courier, and Lendl couldn't? Do people think he really just works that much harder? But that's not the incredible part, his work ethic. The incredible part is that a 35 yo's body shouldn't recover quickly enough to allow his insane workouts.

edit: and yes, hypothetically, if it were revealed that Agassi was juicing it would be a monumentally crippling blow to the sport of tennis... I'm trying to think of anything worse that could happen to tennis other than all the top players dying in a plane crash or something...

im not so sure that that is true, i used to be into bodybuilding and would read up on body building encyclopedia's and steriods dont add stamina, just muscle, and they also add unwanted weight,(fat) something that agassi definitely would not want. there are two types of muscle fast twitch and slow twitch and the kind that athletes want is slow twitch this is the muscle that has endurance that can only be strenghtened with high rep, low weight weight training, this is the kind of muscle that a body builder wants, to sculpt a beatiful physique not a block of meat. the fast twitch fibers have extreme power but no endurance, they wouldnt last a grueling tennis match, these can only be trained by powerlifting, maxing out, and super-sets. only power-lifters want this, this muscle has no definition and is just blobs. they dont care what it looks like they just want power, and these are he ones that use steriods the most. bodybuilders rely more on strict diets to try to get their muscle striations to show up better. so i dont think that agassi wouls benefit from taking steriods because his endurance would not be enhanced

 

[big ted]

the sports bigger then any player these days if agassi were on something he would have been outed. mabye before the 90's before the atp began they might protect players ( like they protected mac and connors from being defaulted for behaving badly during matches) but not anymore. they get tested at tournaments , at home, theres no way to do drugs and get away with it on the atp tour as far as i know

 

[yvp]

To answer the question of this post;yes,Agassi is on juice,cranberry juice.

 

[35ft6]

im not so sure that that is true, i used to be into bodybuilding and would read up on body building encyclopedia's and steriods dont add stamina, just muscle,

I'm talking about muscles recovering faster, not cardiovascular benefits.

so i dont think that agassi wouls benefit from taking steriods because his endurance would not be enhanced

His muscles would recover faster, allowing him to develop higher muscular endurance. I read a lot of bodybuilding magazines too, and you don't get super huge on steroids unless you follow a very strict regiment. For tennis players it wouldn't be about gaining huge size so much as about being able to recover quicker and maybe preventing injuries.