Is Alcaraz already greater than Andy Murray?

[clout]

Carlitos at 22 now has 5 slams won vs Murray who has 3 slams won. Murray does have a better non-slams resume than Carlos (for now) though, as he won 14 Masters, 2 Olympic gold medals, 1 YEN1, 1 YEC, and 41 weeks at number one all while playing in the big 3 era compared to Carlos who has won 7 Masters, 1 Olympic silver medal, 0 YEC, 1 YEN1, and 36 weeks at number one.

However, 2 more slams is a lot....not to mention Carlos has won a major on every surface, and he's only 22

 

[heninfan99]

Carlos is the GOAT.

 

[The Devil probably]

Not yet.

 

[GrassMasters]

Murray is the GOAT.

 

[weakera]

Clearly a way higher level outside of fast HC

 

[Mainad]

Carlos failed to beat Djokovic at the Olympics. Therefore.....no.

 

[DSH]

Murray is the GOAT.

The GOAT of Queens.

 

[Razer]

Easily Carlos is greater, he was even greater with 4 slams, now he has 5, so yes he is greater than Murray, Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Stanimal and JMDP.

 

[Deleted member 827468]

yes

 

[Cramerica]

Randy Murray was basically a professional pusher.

Paella > beans for breakfast

 

[Mainad]

Randy Murray was basically a professional pusher.

Paella > beans for breakfast

Randy Murray???

 

[Martin J]

Back to back Wimbledon titles, baby. Though he lost sets to Djoko, unlike Muri GOAT, so...it's a tough call.

 

[Cramerica]

Back to back Wimbledon titles, baby. Though he lost sets to Djoko, unlike Muri GOAT, so...it's a tough call.

And Randy Murray did beat Djokovic in straight sets at Wimbledon in his prime.

 

[Martin J]

And Randy Murray did beat Djokovic in straight sets at Wimbledon in his prime.

Randy it is then.

 

[nolefam_2024]

If world ends today, they are tied..but raz will be ahead most likely by end of this year.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Achievements-wise, yes...so, no.

But that can and almost certainly will change.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Clearly a way higher level outside of fast HC

Fast outdoor HC, non-Daytime Miami slow HC, indoor HC, grass ('12-'13 Murray > ).

 

[TheFifthSet]

@Mainad we must hold the line. The stakes are too high not to. Much hangs in the balance.

 

[Rebel-I.N.S]

Randy Murray was basically a professional pusher.

Paella > beans for breakfast

 

[jackson vile]

Already was

 

[MeatTornado]

I still don't think it's a fair comparison with how much bigger Andy's body of work is. It's inevitable that Alcaraz will have the better career, but he simply hasn't played long enough yet to do everything Murray did.

2 slam lead isn't worth 7 extra Masters, 2 Oly golds, 1 YEC and an extra 8 slam runner-ups. Also Andy has a more legitimate YE1.

 

[Kralingen]

Murray received much better coaching from Ivan Lendl so it’s an unfair comparison.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Real talk though...focusing on form as opposed to results I don't see it all, but am open to having my mind changed (syk I'm pretty immovable).

Lets look at the five biggest tournaments in tennis:

AO - Alcaraz has done nothing but underachieve, whereas Murray has 5 AO finals to his name and brought Prime Djoko to his knees in '12…there are probably 3-4 editions where Murray’s play would’ve made him a deserving champ in a median year.

RG - Raz wins, but it didn't help Murray to have Prime Nadal in his way twice, once when in good form, as well as Prime Djoko 2x.

Wimby - In '12 he beats Karlovic, Cilic and Tsonga to make the final without needing a 5th, then matches an exceptional Federer (who is obviously much better than '23 Djokovic) in the first two sets. In '13 he beats a fatigued but still-better-than-'24-Djokovic in straights. Ignore '10, '15, '16 Wimby, all of the Queens titles, the Olympics and Murray still wins the "Peak Form" comparison on grass.

USO - Lets say '22 > '08 due to Murray's flatness in the final, that still leaves '12 which is >> '22. Neither did much outside of that.

WTF - Nothing of note here from Carlos, whereas Murray won this tournament and had another good run, '10 (though perhaps '23 Raz beats '10 Nadal, who knows).


-

We're left with M1000's Oly's, smaller tournaments...and Murray leads in all of those. If you're a slams-and-results fundamentalist I get the vote for Raz, truly I do, but those that aren't: what's the case? Is it the inevitability of Alcaraz lapping Murray; are y'all just skipping ahead?

 

[Tennfan123]

He’s also defended two slams on different surfaces in back to back years. He also has impressive young records like no.1 and equalling nadal at the age to win five slams. Not for Carlos having to lose first four slam finals and then take no.1 when biggest rivals slump. Carlos is a born champion not a trained one.

 

[Cramerica]

No one cares about the Olympics, I think we can all agree on that. They had to offer points just to get players to play there and even then half of them don't bother.

Now that we've gotten summer camp parlor games out of the way, it would be unfair to compare Alcaraz to Randy Murray because Rand had to directly or indirectly face prime Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic at basically every tournament. Who's Alcaraz facing? Sinner? Sure, that's one guy. Old Djokovic who relies on uppers and mid-match painkillers? Get outta here. Zverev? You're becoming a joke now. Don't you dare say Fonseca.

 

[NoleFam]

I voted yes but it doesn't seem fair to rate him over Murray, yet. They're probably like even tbh considering how many big tournaments Murray has. However, Slams weigh a ton and much more than any other tournament.

 

[legcramp]

Murray wasn't even on that animated poster/picture.

 

[gamelovergold]

Murray played in big 3 era but that has nothing to do with carlos acheivement.
2 slam is very huge gap.
You can not discount it easily.

 

[RS]

Murray received much better coaching from Ivan Lendl so it’s an unfair comparison.

Errrrr

 

[StrongRule]

I still don't think it's a fair comparison with how much bigger Andy's body of work is. It's inevitable that Alcaraz will have the better career, but he simply hasn't played long enough yet to do everything Murray did.

2 slam lead isn't worth 7 extra Masters, 2 Oly golds, 1 YEC and an extra 8 slam runner-ups. Also Andy has a more legitimate YE1.

Show me a player who would trade 2 slams for these.

 

[Martin J]

Show me a player who would trade 2 slams for these.

I'm not sure even Gaudio would trade his RG trophy for Zed's career. Winning Slam is the ultimate price for players.

 

[gamelovergold]

Show me a player who would trade 2 slams for these.

If it came to such desparation maybe novak would have traded 1 slam for gold medal . But as we all know nobody will give 2 slams for even 10 runner up trophy and 10 masters trophy .

 

[nolefam_2024]

Guadio type players is why I trust stats. They are freaking lucky.

 

[Barton]

One more Slam wasn't enough for Alcaraz to be ahead of Murray, but two more Slams is probably enough.

 

[Martin J]

Guadio type players is why I trust stats. They are freaking lucky.

Now, go and cry somewhere else.

 

[Barton]

I'm not sure even Gaudio would trade his RG trophy for Zed's career. Winning Slam is the ultimate price players.

 

[Martin J]

Lol, still a popular place for gathering?

 

[junior74]

Murray received much better coaching from Ivan Lendl so it’s an unfair comparison.

How many slems for Carrot if Ivan made a man out of him?

 

[Barton]

Lol, still a popular place for gathering?

It's actually Wonderull Caffe lately.

 

[Martin J]

It's actually Wonderull Caffe lately.

Haven't heard of it, but have fun anyway.

 

[Rattie]

Comparing Andy’s achievements after his career has ended with Carlos’s who is near the start. False equivalence.

 

[Incognito]

Carlos failed to beat Djokovic at the Olympics. Therefore.....no.

Sir Andy is the Olympic GOAT. Nobody can take that away.

But with 2 majors more, Carlos is overall greater.

 

[GoatNo1]

i think they are pretty even but will check with my point system.

YE#1=slam=50 weeks=100p
WTF=OG=40p
M=20p
MM=5p

nobody has CGS, GM and other staff for bonus points

their no1 stats are similar but razs is asterisked due W22 points and deportation and bans to nole who was clearly the best player that year where raz got to no and YE#1!

raz has 500+7x20=640p
muzza 300+14x20+2x40=300+280+80=660p

to close so pretty even. if not for covid BS political influence raz would never be no1 player and muzza would be clearly greater but it is what it is!

 

[T&M Returns]

Majors are really the only thing that counts. So, yes.

 

[SonnyT]

Are you kidding? The only one comparable WAS Djokovic!

 

[Incognito]

i think they are pretty even but will check with my point system.

YE#1=slam=50 weeks=100p
WTF=OG=40p
M=20p
MM=5p

nobody has CGS, GM and other staff for bonus points

their no1 stats are similar but razs is asterisked due W22 points and deportation and bans to nole who was clearly the best player that year where raz got to no and YE#1!

raz has 500+7x20=640p
muzza 300+14x20+2x40=300+280+80=660p

to close so pretty even. if not for covid BS political influence raz would never be no1 player and muzza would be clearly greater but it is what it is!

Lol, you probably feel inside that someone one day will win more than 25 slams so you put more weight on weeks at one

 

[GoatNo1]

Lol, you probably feel inside that someone one day will win more than 25 slams so you put more weight on weeks at one

i had the same system for pretty long time. in fact both roger, nole and sampras (3 last GOATs said that no1 s greater nad more important achievement that slam)!

 

[NYTennisfan]

Murray received much better coaching from Ivan Lendl so it’s an unfair comparison.

Somehow I knew this post was coming lol

And to answer the question, of course Alcaraz is a better player than Murray if we're talking peak play but has a bit of a ways to go to achieve his entire career accomplishments. 14 Masters, 13 Slam Finals appearances, 2 Gold Medal wins is quite a career so some work for Alcaraz to do to get to that level even though he leads in the most important category, 5 slam wins to 3.

 

[Incognito]

i had the same system for pretty long time. in fact both roger, nole and sampras (3 last GOATs says that no1 s greater nad more important achievement that slam)!

Lol it all about the majors. You have the most majors, you are the most accomplished. The rest are tiebreakers.

Lol had Djokovic retired with 19 majors and 10 times year end number 1, nobody would ever put him above Fedal, except in serbia.

 

[Razer]

Lol it all about the majors. You have the most majors, you are the most accomplished. The rest are tiebreakers.

Lol had Djokovic retired with 19 majors and 10 times year end number 1, nobody would ever put him above Fedal, except in serbia.

Thats right and I would say even the tie breakers are a bit overrated.

Lets say Novak has 22 slams and 400 weeks at 1 while Nadal has 22 slams and 200 weeks at 1, while one might say Novak has more weeks at 1, we forget that Nadal's 14 french opens is a unique record ... So technically the slam counts being tied means they are tied, rest of it can be a tie breaker but those things could be argued in diff ways.... So slams lead is a must to be ahead... it is truly all about slams like you said and I agree, it has always been that way.