Jono123
Hall of Fame
He wasn't 'great' at the end of it either.
Is Alcaraz already greater than Andy Murray?
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Mainad
Bionic Poster
Well, I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion (however bizarre or ill-informed).
Jav
Semi-Pro
Is Alcaraz already greater than Murray?
Well, getting to twice his GS count at age 22 will surely make it now, right? 2 of them against a fellow ATG during this very same season. Unless you rate all them less than 0.5 compared to 2013-16’s because we lack certain players now like *checks notes* elder Delpo, Wawrinka, injured Rafa or an out of form Roger.
Cheers to the doubters
Well, getting to twice his GS count at age 22 will surely make it now, right? 2 of them against a fellow ATG during this very same season. Unless you rate all them less than 0.5 compared to 2013-16’s because we lack certain players now like *checks notes* elder Delpo, Wawrinka, injured Rafa or an out of form Roger.
Cheers to the doubters
TennisGrandpA
Legend
People should stop overrating Murray and compare him to a guy who is on his way to win more than 10 slams
@TheFifthSet Curious about your Carlos 25 vs. Novak 08 take now (which looks like was mentioned on the previous page, though I seem to remember a more detailed breakdown elsewhere).
This felt like a very 08 Australian kind of run, as far as sheer dominance goes. Does that finally get Alcaraz even with (or perhaps even ahead of??) 08ovic?
This felt like a very 08 Australian kind of run, as far as sheer dominance goes. Does that finally get Alcaraz even with (or perhaps even ahead of??) 08ovic?
Jav
Semi-Pro
Mind you, that was not his take.
His take was (as well as @abmk) more along the lines of 08’ Novak’s superiority on HC >>> 25’ Carlitos’ edge on natural in an hypothetical h2h between both (he called RG a “toss-up”).
I had a long discussion with them both, these were not even their boldest ones. They just tend to exaggerate on everything for the better or the worse pretending to square the circle. No amount of cooking and “coping” can challenge the 1 vs 6 GS count at the same age though.
TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
I think Djoko’s run of form in the first half of the year was better (even if he ate more losses), but Raz has given a great account of himself from Wimby onward. Djokovic ended the year strong with the YEC, and I still think even briefly separating yourself in a field populated by Prime Fedal is more impressive, but Alcaraz has got him beat in consistency + finally notched a wire-to-wire dominant slam run.
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Match_Point
Rookie
From a career perspective its a yes. Young age, 6 slams already to Andy's 3.
However Andy Murray's competition was against the big3 from the get-go, coinciding largely with their peaks/prime.
He lost against Roger at USO08 (1st slam final) then at AO10 (2nd slam final). He lost to a peak Nole at AO11, followed by post prime fed at WB12. He then went 2-4 against peak/prime Nole across AO/WB/FO. It doesn't get any rougher than this. The one free lunch was his last slam.
If you put Carlos in Andy's shoe, im not sure if he fairs any better tbh. You have Federer/Djokovic ruling the HC/grass and then you got Nadal/Djokovic on clay..
Its hard to compare the two because Carlo's competition is in the form of old Djokovic, lost 90s gen and prime Sinner (i consider him a lesser version of Djokovic for now). I think if you put Andy instead of Carlos, he might be seeing alot more success given the level of competition.
Level wise I do think Carlos edges Andy in this department but its not a massive gap. Although time will tell to see if Alcaraz goes beyond what he is doing now and dishing out clinical perfs over the next 5 years.
However Andy Murray's competition was against the big3 from the get-go, coinciding largely with their peaks/prime.
He lost against Roger at USO08 (1st slam final) then at AO10 (2nd slam final). He lost to a peak Nole at AO11, followed by post prime fed at WB12. He then went 2-4 against peak/prime Nole across AO/WB/FO. It doesn't get any rougher than this. The one free lunch was his last slam.
If you put Carlos in Andy's shoe, im not sure if he fairs any better tbh. You have Federer/Djokovic ruling the HC/grass and then you got Nadal/Djokovic on clay..
Its hard to compare the two because Carlo's competition is in the form of old Djokovic, lost 90s gen and prime Sinner (i consider him a lesser version of Djokovic for now). I think if you put Andy instead of Carlos, he might be seeing alot more success given the level of competition.
Level wise I do think Carlos edges Andy in this department but its not a massive gap. Although time will tell to see if Alcaraz goes beyond what he is doing now and dishing out clinical perfs over the next 5 years.
gamelovergold
Hall of Fame
3 slam lead is more than enough for whatever short comings Alcaraz has with murray resume.
Alcaraz now enters the ATG category where there will be always debate over Andy being a ATG.
Alcaraz now enters the ATG category where there will be always debate over Andy being a ATG.
tennnisfanatic
Rookie
He was greater than Murray by the end of 2024. He's only added more distance between the two this year. Murray was a distance, distance 4th in his own era. Carlos is the best of his generation so you have to take this into account as well.
Pheasant
Legend
I didn’t vote until today. It was close enough before. Murray had all of those extra Masters titles + the WTF + tougher competition. But the 2025 USO clinched the deal for Alcaraz. His performance was stellar. And now, his 6 slams are too much.
It’s now obvious that Alcaraz leads Murray.
It’s now obvious that Alcaraz leads Murray.
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gamelovergold
Hall of Fame
Is there still remain some doubt after RG miracle and USO clinical .
Alcaraz has levels which murray could only dream only.
Murray whole masters tally can not pass 3 slam lead.
And ALCARAZ has long way to go . His comparision has to be made against AGASSI .
Alcaraz has levels which murray could only dream only.
Murray whole masters tally can not pass 3 slam lead.
And ALCARAZ has long way to go . His comparision has to be made against AGASSI .
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
I voted for Murray back when I voted for Murray. Not going to change the result to get in line with the Talk Tennis big shots. My goodness, what a thought.
TheFifthSet
G.O.A.T.
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lol
I explicitly said Alcaraz wins the age-for-age comparison over Federer and Djokovic:
And I now think a good case can be made for ‘25 Raz over ‘08 Djokovic. Even in July, I said the margin was small.
As mentioned in the other thread, I’d be fine with us having a long-form discussion, so long as I no longer need to hold your hand on stuff like this (talking layups, empty nets and overheads here man. Seriously, it shouldn’t be this hard to follow a convo).
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