Is Alcaraz disproportionately benefiting from coaching?

P

power_backhand

Rookie
I've never liked allowing coaching. It seems to me like Alcaraz is benefiting much more than his rivals (Sinner, Hurkacz, Tsitsipas, etc) from coaching. First of all, his coach is a former number one and has a much better understanding of tennis. Secondly, his coach talks to Alcaraz WAY more than the other coaches, especially on critical points and Alcaraz actually listens. The Hurcacz match today is a perfect example. In the second set tiebreak, Alcaraz is getting coaching after every point from Juan Carlos. And on Hurkacz's side, not a word. Alcaraz comes back and wins. Clearly, Juan Carlos is telling him to play to the Hurcacz forehand. I don't like how coaching benefits the more coachable player with a better coach. Hurcacz would have absolutely won that set if there was no coaching.
 
I think it’s fine (from a fairness perspective) that coaching benefits the coachable player. However, I think it’s lame that you should win more because you are a good little tennis player who does what they are told. I also think it’s bad for the same from an equity standpoint. Richer players win with more expensive (better?) coaches.

not even a fed fan but it’s pretty epic of Fed to have dominated without a coach, looking back
 
power_backhand said:
I've never liked allowing coaching. It seems to me like Alcaraz is benefiting much more than his rivals (Sinner, Hurkacz, Tsitsipas, etc) from coaching. First of all, his coach is a former number one and has a much better understanding of tennis. Secondly, his coach talks to Alcaraz WAY more than the other coaches, especially on critical points and Alcaraz actually listens. The Hurcacz match today is a perfect example. In the second set tiebreak, Alcaraz is getting coaching after every point from Juan Carlos. And on Hurkacz's side, not a word. Alcaraz comes back and wins. Clearly, Juan Carlos is telling him to play to the Hurcacz forehand. I don't like how coaching benefits the more coachable player with a better coach. Hurcacz would have absolutely won that set if there was no coaching.
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not his fault Juan is so much better coach. Ferrero was called Mesquito... but his brain is much larger....

Juan-Carlos-Ferrero-008.jpg
 
power_backhand said:
I've never liked allowing coaching. It seems to me like Alcaraz is benefiting much more than his rivals (Sinner, Hurkacz, Tsitsipas, etc) from coaching. First of all, his coach is a former number one and has a much better understanding of tennis. Secondly, his coach talks to Alcaraz WAY more than the other coaches, especially on critical points and Alcaraz actually listens. The Hurcacz match today is a perfect example. In the second set tiebreak, Alcaraz is getting coaching after every point from Juan Carlos. And on Hurkacz's side, not a word. Alcaraz comes back and wins. Clearly, Juan Carlos is telling him to play to the Hurcacz forehand. I don't like how coaching benefits the more coachable player with a better coach. Hurcacz would have absolutely won that set if there was no coaching.
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Yeah I don’t like it. But idk if it would make a difference honestly. Who knows.
 
WeekendTennisHack said:
Had to be allowed so it would even the playing field against cheaters who got coaching when it wasn't allowed. See Nadal.
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From one Hack to another... I agree.

It wasn't just Nadal. Literally every player that had a coach on their staff was getting coaching during the matches. They just had to hide the signals and use code words to communicate with their players before the rules were changed.
 
reaper said:
You've got to love the complex strategy a coach can bring to a player. In this case it was hit it to his forehand. At other times it will be hit it to his backhand. How can anyone compete against that?
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Yes, tennis really is a pretty simple sport, so certainly the strategies don't have to be complex. That said, tennis is a mental game and sometimes a player can get so wrapped up in their emotions that they can't see the obvious.

That's where having that third-party voice to say "hey, hit it to his forehand, idiot" or "why don't you step back a bit and cover the backhand more when your opponent serves on the ad side?" I believe that was what JCF was barking to Alcaraz today, and it worked.
 
If coaching didn't work it wouldn't be done. I especially blame the Raffers camp for its unfortunate, game-debasing prevalence.
 
Jack the Hack said:
Yes, tennis really is a pretty simple sport, so certainly the strategies don't have to be complex. That said, tennis is a mental game and sometimes a player can get so wrapped up in their emotions that they can't see the obvious.

That's where having that third-party voice to say "hey, hit it to his forehand, idiot" or "why don't you step back a bit and cover the backhand more when your opponent serves on the ad side?" I believe that was what JCF was barking to Alcaraz today, and it worked.
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Yes, I agree it should be up to the player to figure it out. Just because the WTA chose to embarrass itself by having exclusively male coaches come on court to give simple instructions to apparently dumb girls, it doesn't mean the ATP should follow suit.
 
power_backhand said:
First of all, his coach is a former number one and has a much better understanding of tennis.
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That part isn't unfair at all. Zverev had his chance with JCF and he threw him away.

I doubt JCF has a better understanding of tennis than any of the other top coaches anyway. Probably just seems that way since his student is so good. Do we really think he knows more than say Cahill, who is coaching Sinner?
 
If I remember correctly this was the point Federer was making against coaching years ago. It helps the top players even more. I didn't mind the rule change, because everyone else seems to either be quiet or just making comments from time to time. I don't know if they put a mic in front of JCF or what's the deal with him, but whenever Carlos is playing we're getting a full podcast.
 
dr. godmode said:
I think it’s fine (from a fairness perspective) that coaching benefits the coachable player. However, I think it’s lame that you should win more because you are a good little tennis player who does what they are told. I also think it’s bad for the same from an equity standpoint. Richer players win with more expensive (better?) coaches.

not even a fed fan but it’s pretty epic of Fed to have dominated without a coach, looking back
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Once in a lifetime GOAT talent
 
MeatTornado said:
That part isn't unfair at all. Zverev had his chance with JCF and he threw him away.

I doubt JCF has a better understanding of tennis than any of the other top coaches anyway. Probably just seems that way since his student is so good. Do we really think he knows more than say Cahill, who is coaching Sinner?
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For JCF and Alcaraz, it's not so much that JCF has some secret tennis knowledge that other coaches don't have... rather, I think it's that their personalities connect, Alcaraz respects JCF like a father or older brother, and they share the same native language. JCF would be a fine coach for many players, but he's got a special and mutually beneficial opportunity with Carlos.
 
power_backhand said:
I've never liked allowing coaching. It seems to me like Alcaraz is benefiting much more than his rivals (Sinner, Hurkacz, Tsitsipas, etc) from coaching. First of all, his coach is a former number one and has a much better understanding of tennis. Secondly, his coach talks to Alcaraz WAY more than the other coaches, especially on critical points and Alcaraz actually listens. The Hurcacz match today is a perfect example. In the second set tiebreak, Alcaraz is getting coaching after every point from Juan Carlos. And on Hurkacz's side, not a word. Alcaraz comes back and wins. Clearly, Juan Carlos is telling him to play to the Hurcacz forehand. I don't like how coaching benefits the more coachable player with a better coach. Hurcacz would have absolutely won that set if there was no coaching.
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YES!
 
I do not support coaching during play. It was disappointing that the ATP allowed it. However, coaching took place during matches by some despite being illegal before the rule change. At that time it was tantamount to cheating.

Players with integrity, such as Federer, did not engage in it but several of his rivals did.
That was unfair and I can see how, by making it legal, it becomes an option for all players. In this regard it is a level playing field.

The premise of this thread is flawed. CA cannot dictate which player's coach should give coaching and if that player's coach is silent that is a matter for him. Quite why this is somehow deemed CA's fault / to state the lack of coachng by the opponent's coach is unfair beause CA's coach does his job and they don't is just nonsense.

Does coaching make CA the outstanding player that he is? No. Would it make HH less prone to losing matches? No. Could it assist players regarding tactics during a match? Possibly.

If being a great player is about doing what your coach says during a match there would be a flood of great players. There is no flood. The fact is that this thread raises a red herring. Happy fishing.
 
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This is silly.
Coaching is allowed.
How is it unfair is someone chooses not to use it?

And nevermind Alcz innate skills and abilities, all court weapons, point construction and court IQ...etc.
All coaching.
 
Eureka said:
I do not support coaching during play. It was disappointing that the ATP allowed it. However, coaching took place during matches by some despite being illegal before the rule change. At that time it was tantamount to cheating.

Players with integrity, such as Federer, did not engage in it but several of his rivals did.
That was unfair and I can see how, by making it legal, it becomes an option for all players. In this regard it is a level playing field.

The premise of this thread is flawed. CA cannot dictate which player's coach should give coaching and if that player's coach is silent that is a matter for him. Quite why this is somehow deemed CA's fault / to state the lack of coachng by the opponent's coach is unfair beause CA's coach does his job and they don't is just nonsense.

Does coaching make CA the outstanding player that he is? No. Would it make HH less prone to losing matches? No. Could it assist players regarding tactics during a match? Possibly.

If being a great player is about doing what your coach says during a match there would be a flood of great players. There is no flood. The fact is that this thread raises a red herring. Happy fishing.
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Fairest take yet
 
Nostradamus said:
not his fault Juan is so much better coach. Ferrero was called Mesquito... but his brain is much larger....
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Juan has shown great chemistry with Carlos and their relationship is growing by the tournament.

There are all kinds of different coaches, some are more vocal than others, some gesture more than others and some just sit there. You must take their culture into consideration and in the case with Juan, he is Spanish and is quite vocal. There is lots of chatter but who knows how much of that is actual coaching and how much is simple encouragement.

Coaching is here and it's plain to see just how different coaches are in their approach.
 
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if coaching is now allowed, then Hubi needs to change to a coach that can actually coach him better in a match
 
power_backhand said:
I've never liked allowing coaching. It seems to me like Alcaraz is benefiting much more than his rivals (Sinner, Hurkacz, Tsitsipas, etc) from coaching. First of all, his coach is a former number one and has a much better understanding of tennis. Secondly, his coach talks to Alcaraz WAY more than the other coaches, especially on critical points and Alcaraz actually listens. The Hurcacz match today is a perfect example. In the second set tiebreak, Alcaraz is getting coaching after every point from Juan Carlos. And on Hurkacz's side, not a word. Alcaraz comes back and wins. Clearly, Juan Carlos is telling him to play to the Hurcacz forehand. I don't like how coaching benefits the more coachable player with a better coach. Hurcacz would have absolutely won that set if there was no coaching.
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Djokovic and Nadal didn't?
 
Some players get distracted and lose their focus with constant coaching. Alcaraz seems to be well receptive to coaching and able to implement the instructions. Djokovic has used illegal coaching for many years, and so did probably half of the tour. It shouldn’t be allowed, but there is no way to stop it efficiently so better allow it in my opinion. I would do the same with doping.
 
Arak said:
Some players get distracted and lose their focus with constant coaching. Alcaraz seems to be well receptive to coaching and able to implement the instructions. Djokovic has used illegal coaching for many years, and so did probably half of the tour. It shouldn’t be allowed, but there is no way to stop it efficiently so better allow it in my opinion. I would do the same with doping.
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The tour did a perfectly good job of minimising coaching and even doping even if they could have been stricter on the likes of Djokovic.It's cheap and easy to police compared to doping.
 
Bartelby said:
The tour did a perfectly good job of minimising coaching and even doping even if they could have been stricter on the likes of Djokovic.It's cheap and easy to police compared to doping.
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The key word is minimising though, but I agree with you.
 
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