BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
But just think if he'd been meeting Djokovic in slam finals the last 10 years. Then Roddick would be a tennis God with skills greater than Borg, Laver, Sampras, Agassi, Fed and Rafa combined.
Is Alcaraz greater than Roddick?
- Thread starter Holmes
- Start date
NYTennisfan
Hall of Fame
Where are people coming up with this craziness that somehow 2023 Djokovic is this way past the prime has been?
He might not be quite what 2015 Djokovic was but he's not that far off. Movement isn't quite what it used to be but his serve is better than it was back then and he's more tactical now. He's really not that far off from peak Djokovic as much as the New Gen haters won't admit it.
He might not be quite what 2015 Djokovic was but he's not that far off. Movement isn't quite what it used to be but his serve is better than it was back then and he's more tactical now. He's really not that far off from peak Djokovic as much as the New Gen haters won't admit it.
NYTennisfan
Hall of Fame
I already addressed that. Djokovic retired that match and 2009 Djokovic before the diet change isn't as good as even current Djokovic. That was also quarterfinals, not nearly as big a moment as this Wimbledon finals was especially considering what was on the line.
Purestriker
Legend
Yes, Carlito is not a one trick pony.Alcaraz:
Weeks #1: 30
Year End #1s: 1
Slam titles: 2 (USO 2022 d. Ruud, Wimbledon 2023 d. Djokovic)
Titles: 12
Roddick:
Weeks #1: 13
Year End #1s: 1
Slams: 1 (USO 2003 d. Ferrero)
Titles: 32
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
So if someone is "pre-peak" it should be discounted but not if someone is "post-peak"? Roddick was already winning before Djokovic retired and beat him several times during those days, so it's not like he wouldn't have a chance if Djokovic was healthy. Roddick also beat Djokovic in Dubai 2008 when he had just won the AO and IW and was the best player the first half of the year (also beat Nadal that tournament and he was having the best season of his life probably).
Roddick won like 8 sets in a row vs Djokovic at the time, not even Federer and Nadal were doing that (not even close actually) and that was a Djokovic who had already won a slam and was constantly top 3. So even if it wasn't peak Djokovic it was not easy to beat him at all.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
His serve was godawful in the Wimbledon final. 100% taking his 2015 serve over that.
NYTennisfan
Hall of Fame
His serve, in general, is better than it ever has been. It wasn't great in the Wimbledon final but it's become a strength of his
NYTennisfan
Hall of Fame
Not discounting but he's a more complete player now than he was in '09. I think beating '23 Djokovic in the Wimbledon finals with everything that was in the line is more impressive than beating '09 Djokovic in the Aussie QF.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
There will never be a level to match 2004 first set Wimbledon final Roddick, unless it be 2007 USO quarterfinals straight set loss Roddick.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Novak had some pretty great droppers circa 2007
mike danny
Bionic Poster
mike danny
Bionic Poster
And yet lost to a 20 year old grass rookie.
RS
Bionic Poster
IMO they are.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Slams are open for anyone to win now cause only 36 year old Djoker keeps a vice grip on it. A GOAT for sure but an old GOAT nonetheless. 04-09 you still had to get around the prime or peak Nadal/Fed minefield. Thats why comparing eras is kind of pointless. In terms of who did what today compared to who did what 20-30 years ago. I dont see Carlos getting even one slam much less 2 back then because there is no possible way he beats Nadal at RG or Fed at Wimbledon or US Open
insideoutforehands
Semi-Pro
Since any 37 year old is past their prime. People don't want to admit Djokovic, and before him Serena (and to an even greater extent Nadal) are so far past their prime like anyone is at that age, since it would expose just how embarassingly bad the field in the mens has been for atleast 7 years and counting now, and for a long while was in the womens too when grandma-Rena was cleaning up (and notice once the womens field sort of became decent again she stopped winning simply as she was too old, chasing that elusive #24 for 4 years before retiring).
He still stuns one from time to time with his movement. His movement is still impressive.
Alcaraz legitimately returned better than Federer did that day. Alcaraz in this Wimbledon made a list of excellent servers look ordinary.
Sure Djokovic could have returned better, and the winds, a little lighter, but this is heavily on Alcaraz. Berrettini, Jarry, and Medvedev can attest to this.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Alcaraz returned splendidly, I’m not denying that—but both things can be true. Djokovic did not serve well, and Alcaraz returned well.
Sure, but my reasoning is that great returning results in poor serving from the opponent. Djokovic is no exception to this rule.
Sure but my reasoning is that great returning results in favorably poor serving from the opponent. Djokovic is not an exception to this.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I’d agree with this for most other shots but the serve is almost completely isolated from the rest of the game. A good serve is going to be a good serve regardless of what the opponent does because the serve isn’t a response to another shot—it’s all on the server. There have been many examples of good servers maintaining their strong serving even in the presence of excellent returning. Fed did this in his famous 2015 SF against Murray, and Roddick did it in basically every Slam match he ever played against Federer.
Alcaraz's shots didn’t have too much to do with Djokovic hitting that many 80-90mph second serves, for instance. The pace he was putting on his serves was just not good at all. Djokovic wasn't just being punished by strong returning... he just collapsed.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Too bad he couldn't maintain his form in that final. Wonder why.
sportsfan1
Legend
Roddick beat Djokovic at the Australian open though, so still something for alcaraz to match.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
It all depends on context. Nole in 2009 AO retired and in 2010 AO lost a winning match vs tsonga. Those losses happened before Nole knew his gluten allergy. Roddick probably would be winless in slams.
Raz beat Djokovic who has dominated AO, grinded out RG. He has no physical issues in Wimby.
sportsfan1
Legend
It was a 4 set match and Djokovic actually started well winning a close first set 7-6 in tb.
3 of roddicks other wins were in m1000s at iw, canada and cinci, the last one in aug 2010. One at Dubai. All significant tournaments, especially at that stage of Novak's career when he was about 23 years old.
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
mike danny
Bionic Poster
You'd expect a 20 year old Alcaraz to do some things better than an old Fed like athletic ability and return.
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
Holmes
Hall of Fame
And all before he knew his gluten allergy. Want to know Roddick's tip for keeping a winning h2h against Novak? Retire.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Most of the narratives on the 2015 final are complete bonkers. A few points after having checked out the 2015 final somewhat recently:
1. Murray returned Federer's serve in the semifinal just as brilliantly as Djokovic did in the final, if not even better. This shouldn't be very surprising considering Murray is probably the best returner of Fed's serve out there (Djokovic had good days and bad days). Fed's perceived drop in service quality was not due to any vast improvement on return moving from Murray to Djokovic. I single out the word "return" here because the vast improvements came in other departments which I'll get to shortly.
2. Fed fans shouldn't be too upset at Federer not replicating his SF serving performance in the final. We're talking about a 76% first serve percentage here. That is borderline impossible to repeat in consecutive matches, no matter how good the serve is, because when it comes to something extreme like 76% first serve percentage, there's usually a bit of "luck" involved. Luck is perhaps the wrong word to use here but I think you get the point. This was a lightning-in-a-bottle serve performance.
3. I do believe that Fed's serve took a dip moving from the semifinal to the final. The first serve percentage alone says a lot: 76% ----> 66%. But it by no means approached mediocrity like Djokovic's serve did in the 2023 final. Fed's serving performance in the final was still very solid even if it didn't quite touch the unassailable heights of the SF. For this reason and because Djokovic did not return markedly better than Murray IMO, I would not call this dip a collapse, the descriptor I used for 2023 Wimbledon Djokovic.
4. As good as Murray was on the return, he posed little to no threat in all the other aspects of his game. From the back, he was way too passive and his shots just lacked bite, a common denominator in many of his matches after his injury troubles in 2014. Comparing this to the 2012 final, the difference in aggression seems quite clear to me. Basically, he just wasn't a good test of Federer's ground game. And that leads to the next point.
5. The 2015 SF is frankly overrated as an all-court showing from Federer. He was utterly brilliant on the serve, but the brilliance begins and ends there. He was just decent on the groundstrokes; enough to bully Murray around with the help of that tremendous serve, sure, but against a player with deep, penetrating shots like Djokovic, he was outclassed and the weaknesses in 2015 Fed's ground game were laid bare for everyone to see. The slower movement, the loopier, less violent forehand, and the weaker return--all aspects of the game that, on grass, Federer used to be able to count on--were thoroughly exposed all because Federer's serve dipped from godly to great and because he faced an actual threat on the baseline.
sportsfan1
Legend
Roddick did hang around until he was 30, unfit and quite injured limiting his serve and movement.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
I wonder if Novak's own game or performance had any influence in causing those aspects of Federer's game to perhaps seem worse than they were, as well as some impact on the dip in first serve %.
Murray did seem to be the best returner of Federer's serve out there, probably because he had a great stretch forehand return. To speak to the rest of your general point, of course he was nowhere near the threat to Federer that a peaking (performance-wise) Djokovic was but I'm not sure it's fair or true to ascribe Federer's brilliance in the semi as purely due to Murray mediocrity. Federer may just have been in great form and outplayed in the final.
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True. But here I'm contextualising Djokovic's serving in this game by citing the pressure Alcaraz put on returns as a big reason.
sportsfan1
Legend
Before the wimby final, Djokovic was proclaimed in many threads/posts as having improved his game and fitness to reach a new peak higher than ever before, and consequently dominate a strong era.
The wimby final loss has changed the opinion to deem him past his prime.
Fwiw, visually it appears he's maintained excellent fitness and doesn't have any injuries that limit him during.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
But I've been told repeatedly that Djokovic is in better form now than Sampras was and no way would he lose to a 20 year old at Wimb.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
Better form than himself doesn't mean better form than Sampras, and yes, Alcaraz is a greater opponent sans Feddy than Nole has ever had to face in a Wimby final.
Andy Roddick was an excellent player on the tour. One of my favourite player personalities. I do not however, rate him as a great player, in the scheme of things.
If comparing his achievements with Alcaraz at age 20 to measure greatness, then the following facts are noteworthy.
2002- Houston / Memphis
By 30.08.2003 : Cincinnati / Montreal / Indianapolis/Queens/Saint Polten
AR did not win the US Open until age 21, on 07.09.2003. He remains the last American player to have a won slam, and that is a notable record.
His other 10 titles won before or at the age of 20 include: Umag 2021/ Rio 2022/ Miami 2022/Barcelona 2022/ Madrid 2022/ Argentina open 2023/ Indian Wells 2003 / Barcelona 2023 / Madrid 2023 and Queens 2023.
If the yardstick is personal preference, then those holding AR in higher esteem will no doubt have their basis for it. My preference is for CA's game.
If comparing his achievements with Alcaraz at age 20 to measure greatness, then the following facts are noteworthy.
- AR was born on 30.08.1982. At the age of 20, he held 10 titles, including:
2002- Houston / Memphis
By 30.08.2003 : Cincinnati / Montreal / Indianapolis/Queens/Saint Polten
AR did not win the US Open until age 21, on 07.09.2003. He remains the last American player to have a won slam, and that is a notable record.
- At age 20, Alcaraz has won 12 titles to date – he won’t be 21 until 05.05.2024.
His other 10 titles won before or at the age of 20 include: Umag 2021/ Rio 2022/ Miami 2022/Barcelona 2022/ Madrid 2022/ Argentina open 2023/ Indian Wells 2003 / Barcelona 2023 / Madrid 2023 and Queens 2023.
- On achievements, CA has surpassed AR’s tally of title wins aged 20, and if he continues to play well, could add to that haul as a 20 year old. That aside, it is the calibre of wins at age 20 or younger that is noteworthy too. He holds 2 grand-slams at age 20. AR held none. CA holds 4 Masters1000 titles. AR held 2 as a 20 year old.
If the yardstick is personal preference, then those holding AR in higher esteem will no doubt have their basis for it. My preference is for CA's game.
sportsfan1
Legend
Not sure about that, he was awful with umpires and lines people.
TheNachoMan
Legend
“male player“
Aestheticsaboveallelse
Legend
Great point we simply cannot tell because of this
Holmes
Hall of Fame
I would be lying if I said I didn't think of you and some other forum friends when I tapped "post thread"
Holmes
Hall of Fame
You clearly have not seen Roddick's breathtaking, unheralded, and to date unmatched 2007 USO quarterfinals performance. Federer was taken totally by surprise and lucky to squeak through in straight sets.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Hahahaha. First time I see someone boasting about a guy losing in straight sets.
NYTennisfan
Hall of Fame
It's a lack of respect for Alcaraz from a group of people that in general just can't accept that he's a superstar by trying to minimize his accomplishments. Djokovic pretty much carved through everybody for the most part, yes weak generation and all, the last 3 years until he ran up against Alcaraz. Maybe Alcaraz is just THAT good as opposed to Djokovic having turned into a MUG all of a sudden.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
I would think the rulerspan height difference would only cement Carlos's superiority. To have matched Andy's achievements at 5 foot would have been an impressive statement of talent, never mind doubling them.
abmk
Bionic Poster
he very well could and did. though Roddick BH wasn't very good, it wasn't as bad as made out by some here.
Every point in my previous post remains,.
abmk
Bionic Poster
the rest of your post is pretty good, but I'll have to disagree with this. Djokovic did return fed's serve clearly better from what I remember in Wim 15. He simply put more action/punishment/depth on the return than Murray while getting back at similar rate - adjusted for quality of serve.. ~31% unret for djoko in final compared to 40% for murray in the semi (on top of my head)
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