Is Diego Schwartzman's Serve Optimized?

The average first serve speed on the WTA is 105 mph, and the average height of WTA players is somewhere between 5'6'' and 5'8''.

Diego schwartzman's average first serve speed is between 100-105mph, and his listed height is 5' 7'', actual height probably between 5' 5'' and 5' 8''.

But here's the thing...

Diego Schwartzman is MALE.

And of all the strength imbalances between men and women, upper body strength is by far the biggest, and upper body strength plays a huge roll in serve velocity. Even the most conservative estimates of the leg drive vs upper body ratio still have the upper body contributing around 50% to a serve's velocity.

It seems like Diego should serve much, much harder than he does, given his physical profile, even being 5' 7''. There are tons of 5'8'' girls like Maria Sakkari that seem like they serve basically just as hard as he does (maybe I'm wrong about that). Given the rest of his game, we clearly know he possesses the requisite fast twitch muscle fiber density of other male professional athletes, so why can't he crack the serve harder?

When I bring this up to anyone, they always just mention his height, and when I mention the WTA, they just stutter and have no answer. It looks to me like he might be losing a little bit of the stretch shortening cycle of his shoulder by letting his racket drift behind his head before he initiates from the ground, but idk if that's just an illusion. His internal shoulder rotation through contact looks very muted compared to the great servers, both male and female, (like Maria Sakkari). I'm not sure if this is because he doesn't rotate his shoulder, or because upstream aspects of the swing cause the slower rotation at contact, since the ISR isn't completely volitional, or, again, if I'm just imagining it.

Does anyone have any real insight into this? The only thing I've learned from asking people so far is that no one knows anything, and they just have the "he's short lol" response as a defense because they can't explain it.

Also, if you want to take the position that "his serve isn't fast but it has spin and placement" I'd love an explanation of that with vidoes or something, because I genuinely want to know if Maria Sakkari has a comparable serve to Diego, or if Diego's really is substantially better and it's hard to tell because of the differing quality of returners.

Also, since this will be a discussion of biomechanics, I posted it in "tennis tips/instruction." Ultimately, I want to use the information gathered here to better understand the serve.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Does strength always correlate with speed though? I mean his leg drive, torso rotation, internal shoulder rotation speed. Can a body builder serve very fast?
 

Enga

Hall of Fame
@3:07 you can see how much spin and placement he puts on it


When you're 5'7" you're not really going to get much mileage out of trying to hit it flat, it's low percentage and probably easier to handle.

I don't know why in WTA they go mostly for flat serves, I guess this is just the best way to get the ball in and make it hard enough to react to.
 

BenC

Hall of Fame
Maybe it's a deliberate choice? As in his competition on the ATP aren't bothered enough by his flat serve to make it worth the effort/risk of hitting it regularly.

I recall a video with Nishioka (5'7") saying something to that effect (around 4:20):
 

toth

Hall of Fame
Does someone know, what are his service statistic ( compared to average top 100 players)?
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
It looks to me like he might be losing a little bit of the stretch shortening cycle of his shoulder by letting his racket drift behind his head before he initiates from the ground, but idk if that's just an illusion.
He doesn't have a clear pause to achieve a typical trophy pose. The concept of power leak people refer to about racquet dropping too early behind the head may not apply. I can see what you are describing. I think Diego's racquet head acceleration starts a bit late. Chas's video analysis will be very helpful in this case.
 
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nyta2

Legend
doesn't the WTA also use a lighter/faster ball?
i would attribute diego's slower serve to spin... especially the kicker.. to me it seems like the girls tend to slice their 2nd serve more? (if so, it tends to go faster)
 

Purestriker

Legend
The average first serve speed on the WTA is 105 mph, and the average height of WTA players is somewhere between 5'6'' and 5'8''.

Diego schwartzman's average first serve speed is between 100-105mph, and his listed height is 5' 7'', actual height probably between 5' 5'' and 5' 8''.

But here's the thing...

Diego Schwartzman is MALE.

And of all the strength imbalances between men and women, upper body strength is by far the biggest, and upper body strength plays a huge roll in serve velocity. Even the most conservative estimates of the leg drive vs upper body ratio still have the upper body contributing around 50% to a serve's velocity.

It seems like Diego should serve much, much harder than he does, given his physical profile, even being 5' 7''. There are tons of 5'8'' girls like Maria Sakkari that seem like they serve basically just as hard as he does (maybe I'm wrong about that). Given the rest of his game, we clearly know he possesses the requisite fast twitch muscle fiber density of other male professional athletes, so why can't he crack the serve harder?

When I bring this up to anyone, they always just mention his height, and when I mention the WTA, they just stutter and have no answer. It looks to me like he might be losing a little bit of the stretch shortening cycle of his shoulder by letting his racket drift behind his head before he initiates from the ground, but idk if that's just an illusion. His internal shoulder rotation through contact looks very muted compared to the great servers, both male and female, (like Maria Sakkari). I'm not sure if this is because he doesn't rotate his shoulder, or because upstream aspects of the swing cause the slower rotation at contact, since the ISR isn't completely volitional, or, again, if I'm just imagining it.

Does anyone have any real insight into this? The only thing I've learned from asking people so far is that no one knows anything, and they just have the "he's short lol" response as a defense because they can't explain it.

Also, if you want to take the position that "his serve isn't fast but it has spin and placement" I'd love an explanation of that with vidoes or something, because I genuinely want to know if Maria Sakkari has a comparable serve to Diego, or if Diego's really is substantially better and it's hard to tell because of the differing quality of returners.

Also, since this will be a discussion of biomechanics, I posted it in "tennis tips/instruction." Ultimately, I want to use the information gathered here to better understand the serve.
He is not 5"7.......not even close.
 

Merkaffe

Rookie
I find this thread peculiar. Diego has an amazing serve, especially considering his height. He puts a lot of spin/action on the ball.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Diego's serve is probably equal or better than Serena's.
His 105 has much more spin than any WTA 105 serve.
His fastest, not used in serious match play, is closer to 130.
His normal second serves of 75 has more spin than any WTA second serve...higher bounce and more bite.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
The men are used to serves in the 130's, so even if he regularly hit 115, it wouldn't make his serve that much tougher. He would miss his first serves more and would get punished more on his second serves as a result. With his current first serve, he usually at least starts at neutral which he wouldn't if he had to hit more second serves.
 

weelie

Professional
In the ladies’ game, hitting a flat 105 works and matters. If Diego hit a flat first serve, opponents would just tee off.
 

mightyrick

Legend
Schwartzman has a mediocre serve, but he's been playing with it since he was a child... so his second shot reflexes are other-worldly. Watch footage of how he moves to get the return ball. It's almost like Schwartzman just puts the ball in play and treats his opponent's return as if it were a serve. It's unreal. His ability to read the incoming return is pretty sickening.
 

jorjipy

Semi-Pro
Having seen the Schwartzmann serve live on an outside court, so right next to the court, the serve isn’t better than the good servers at your local club…..not even close.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Interesting thread.

Disregarding some of the height assumptions, let's examine one of the best servers on the WTA, Ash Barty. Imo she is, inch for inch and pound for pound, possibly the best women's server ever so that does put a little perspective on it. She is 5'5" and regularly hits 110-115 with spin (compare that to the disgusting action of Sara Errani, who is the same height). If Diego had her serve, wouldn't he do more damage than he currently does? I think so, but that is tricky to judge and I'm not completely convinced. If the answer is no, then it certainly isn't worth going for that extra pace at the cost of hitting more 2nd serves.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Pound for pound Diego is one of the hardest hitters on the tour. It always amazes me, given his size, how he hits the ball so hard and frequently plays long matches where he doesn’t seem to lose strength.

Given that, surely he can serve faster but has made a conscious decision not to. Maybe he was more inconsistent when he served faster or maybe he understood that the extra pace he generated was not good enough to make that big a difference and instead decided to conserve that energy for his groundstrokes. Given his size he has to conserve energy somewhere.
 

Hagberg

Rookie
Compare with Camila Giorgi who is slightly shorter than Schwarzman. She regularly hits 190 km/h first serves and sometimes more. At least, the laws of physics are not the limitation.

Another interesting serve fact about Giorgi is the second serve tactic. She hits with almost as much power and accepts more double faults. I wonder why not more players do that, especially in matches where they get almost no points on second serve but manage to get 60 - 70% first serves in. Simple math says it would be profitable.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Guys....
ATP is fully grooved into most 125 mph serves.
Around 135+....not so much.
Increasing serve speed from 105 to 120 does nothing to help Diego because his percentage goes down, and his second serve is under more pressure.
Diego is relying on consistent 1st serve, not big misses followed by being attacked on his 2nd.
 
Interesting. Thanks for all the comments. There appears to be a split consensus on the actual effectiveness of Diego's serve.

I'm fairly certain the "diego can hit 130 if he wants to" is nonsense, and the guy that says "his serve isn't much better than your quality club player's serve" is much closer to the truth, though still I'd assume Diego can more consistently hit his spots.

Watching Deigo get taken to church here:

His serve looks extremely underwhelming, especially the second serve. I swear I've played 5.0 guys with seconds serves that were bigger, (who also never double fault), and this is a court level view, so I don't think my perception is that far off.

I totally understand the point that Nishioka was making in that video about how a 125 mph serve that isn't close to the line doesn't matter on the ATP, but my point isn't exactly about speed itself. I understand that Diego slapping flat serves right to the returner wouldn't accomplish anything. My point was more about that, even given this, his serve stats seem underwhelming, especially when compared to those of female players with comaparable height, but, ostensibly, far inferior fast twitch muscle fiber density and upper body strength.
 

jorjipy

Semi-Pro
Now that’s a great post…..

I have seen the women serve up close, someone mentioned Giorgi, and she cracks the serve….it is frightening. Serena practicing her serve is scary too…..she doesn’t care where it goes, she misses 3 metres long sometimes, but the pace is impressive

Any good club player over 6’1” has a much, much better serve than than schwartzmann. Doesn’t every club have a giant guy about 6’4” that has a massive serve ?
 

jorjipy

Semi-Pro
Next I will be hearing how a 5’6” pro golfer drives it further than a 6’4” amateur long driving contestant! Diego’s serve is amateur, embarrassingly so but the guy might not even be 5’4” …..I forgive him
 
Recreational players talking about how the pros are not that good. A tradition like no other.

Players with bad serves. No one comes on here and says Federer's serve isn't good, or Roddick's serve isn't good. We have court level cameras now, we get a pretty realistic view of the serve.

I was at the US Open once and the guy playing Juan Martin (no idea who it was) was literally rolling in 70mph floaters on his second serve. There's nothing magical about being a "pro," there's a wide range of serve quality even on the tour.

I, and many posters on here, have a more effective second serve than the player playing Juan Martin that day. Does that mean I could win 8 games against Juan Martin like the guy did? Absolutely not, but it doesn't mean I don't have a better second serve, as heretical as that sounds.
 
Next I will be hearing how a 5’6” pro golfer drives it further than a 6’4” amateur long driving contestant! Diego’s serve is amateur, embarrassingly so but the guy might not even be 5’4” …..I forgive him
Lol, next we'll start the "how tall is schwartzman, really" debates.

It is, unfortunately, very important for particular topic, though, because the difference between 5' 4'' and his listed 5' 7'' is actually massive geometrically.

From what I've gathered from other threads, I think he's between 5'5'' and 5'6'' for real, so about the same height as Ash.
 

Aslan T

Rookie
Players with bad serves. No one comes on here and says Federer's serve isn't good, or Roddick's serve isn't good. We have court level cameras now, we get a pretty realistic view of the serve.

I was at the US Open once and the guy playing Juan Martin (no idea who it was) was literally rolling in 70mph floaters on his second serve. There's nothing magical about being a "pro," there's a wide range of serve quality even on the tour.

I, and many posters on here, have a more effective second serve than the player playing Juan Martin that day. Does that mean I could win 8 games against Juan Martin like the guy did? Absolutely not, but it doesn't mean I don't have a better second serve, as heretical as that sounds.

If you got to spend 5 minutes on court with Diego you'd be humiliated. The video would probably be quite entertaining. Maybe then you'd be more humble when talking about these things.
 
If you got to spend 5 minutes on court with Diego you'd be humiliated. The video would probably be quite entertaining. Maybe then you'd be more humble when talking about these things.

No, I don't think I would. At least, not in the context that matters here. If he only got one serve, and all I had to do was hit a solid return, and then we move on to the next rep, I think 5 minutes of that would look totally fine.

I'm not sure if you're claiming I wouldn't be able to effectively return his second serve, or if you're just pointing out the fact that he'd 0-0 me in a match as if it's in any way relevant to the discussion of his serve in isolation.
 

jorjipy

Semi-Pro
Having dealt with one particular poster, it’s like beating your head against a very dumb wall …. I wouldn’t bother, Tropical
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Compare with Camila Giorgi who is slightly shorter than Schwarzman. She regularly hits 190 km/h first serves and sometimes more. At least, the laws of physics are not the limitation.

Another interesting serve fact about Giorgi is the second serve tactic. She hits with almost as much power and accepts more double faults. I wonder why not more players do that, especially in matches where they get almost no points on second serve but manage to get 60 - 70% first serves in. Simple math says it would be profitable.
The hitting a 1st serve as a 2nd serve stats have been compiled based on relative win %ages for a lot of the men, and at the time it was done, only a select few would benefit, which is why you don't see it. This isn't the article with the men's stats but it addresses the topic (couldn't find that article sorry but it's probably 5 years old now anyway).

 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
Interesting. Thanks for all the comments. There appears to be a split consensus on the actual effectiveness of Diego's serve.

I'm fairly certain the "diego can hit 130 if he wants to" is nonsense, and the guy that says "his serve isn't much better than your quality club player's serve" is much closer to the truth, though still I'd assume Diego can more consistently hit his spots.

Watching Deigo get taken to church here:

His serve looks extremely underwhelming, especially the second serve. I swear I've played 5.0 guys with seconds serves that were bigger, (who also never double fault), and this is a court level view, so I don't think my perception is that far off.

I totally understand the point that Nishioka was making in that video about how a 125 mph serve that isn't close to the line doesn't matter on the ATP, but my point isn't exactly about speed itself. I understand that Diego slapping flat serves right to the returner wouldn't accomplish anything. My point was more about that, even given this, his serve stats seem underwhelming, especially when compared to those of female players with comaparable height, but, ostensibly, far inferior fast twitch muscle fiber density and upper body strength.
Please don't use Federer as an example to receive his serve. Federer is a genius. Also this is a practice match, they are not really going all out. You should use actual match footage instead.

Also, if Diego is bad, Federer wouldn't be practicing with him. Since it will make Federer's form bad. Think about it.
 
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pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
Interesting. Thanks for all the comments. There appears to be a split consensus on the actual effectiveness of Diego's serve.

I'm fairly certain the "diego can hit 130 if he wants to" is nonsense, and the guy that says "his serve isn't much better than your quality club player's serve" is much closer to the truth, though still I'd assume Diego can more consistently hit his spots.

Watching Deigo get taken to church here:

His serve looks extremely underwhelming, especially the second serve. I swear I've played 5.0 guys with seconds serves that were bigger, (who also never double fault), and this is a court level view, so I don't think my perception is that far off.

I totally understand the point that Nishioka was making in that video about how a 125 mph serve that isn't close to the line doesn't matter on the ATP, but my point isn't exactly about speed itself. I understand that Diego slapping flat serves right to the returner wouldn't accomplish anything. My point was more about that, even given this, his serve stats seem underwhelming, especially when compared to those of female players with comaparable height, but, ostensibly, far inferior fast twitch muscle fiber density and upper body strength.
Also court level view is not the same as actual in person. The framerate, camera distance and zooming and other stuff will change your perspective of how fast and how high the ball really goes.

If you really film yourself in that distance you will know what I mean. Btw, they are hitting in real arena, those courts are huge. This camera probably already zoomed in a lot to get them in view given their height, I would say they are filming inside the front row seats, which is still very far away and also very high above the ground. If you think the ball bounce low, it is because the camera is far far above ground.
 

Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
The average first serve speed on the WTA is 105 mph, and the average height of WTA players is somewhere between 5'6'' and 5'8''.

Diego schwartzman's average first serve speed is between 100-105mph, and his listed height is 5' 7'', actual height probably between 5' 5'' and 5' 8''.

But here's the thing...

Diego Schwartzman is MALE.

And of all the strength imbalances between men and women, upper body strength is by far the biggest, and upper body strength plays a huge roll in serve velocity. Even the most conservative estimates of the leg drive vs upper body ratio still have the upper body contributing around 50% to a serve's velocity.

It seems like Diego should serve much, much harder than he does, given his physical profile, even being 5' 7''. There are tons of 5'8'' girls like Maria Sakkari that seem like they serve basically just as hard as he does (maybe I'm wrong about that). Given the rest of his game, we clearly know he possesses the requisite fast twitch muscle fiber density of other male professional athletes, so why can't he crack the serve harder?

When I bring this up to anyone, they always just mention his height, and when I mention the WTA, they just stutter and have no answer. It looks to me like he might be losing a little bit of the stretch shortening cycle of his shoulder by letting his racket drift behind his head before he initiates from the ground, but idk if that's just an illusion. His internal shoulder rotation through contact looks very muted compared to the great servers, both male and female, (like Maria Sakkari). I'm not sure if this is because he doesn't rotate his shoulder, or because upstream aspects of the swing cause the slower rotation at contact, since the ISR isn't completely volitional, or, again, if I'm just imagining it.

Does anyone have any real insight into this? The only thing I've learned from asking people so far is that no one knows anything, and they just have the "he's short lol" response as a defense because they can't explain it.

Also, if you want to take the position that "his serve isn't fast but it has spin and placement" I'd love an explanation of that with vidoes or something, because I genuinely want to know if Maria Sakkari has a comparable serve to Diego, or if Diego's really is substantially better and it's hard to tell because of the differing quality of returners.

Also, since this will be a discussion of biomechanics, I posted it in "tennis tips/instruction." Ultimately, I want to use the information gathered here to better understand the serve.

1. The serve is actually the most gender-neutral shot. Women come closer to men's serve speeds than they do to their groundstroke speeds. I think it was Lisicki that hit one like 135?

2. Diego looks/sounds much closer to 5'3" to me (I'm also a little guy)
 

denoted

Semi-Pro
Interesting. Thanks for all the comments. There appears to be a split consensus on the actual effectiveness of Diego's serve.

I'm fairly certain the "diego can hit 130 if he wants to" is nonsense, and the guy that says "his serve isn't much better than your quality club player's serve" is much closer to the truth, though still I'd assume Diego can more consistently hit his spots.

Watching Deigo get taken to church here:

If you watch that whole thing, you'll note that Diego wins the practice set.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Who's the short ATP guys?
Rochus? Only saw him on tv, no big serves.
My era, Harold Solomon...5'7", averaged about 105 first and very slow, huge spin seconds. No need for him to try flat serves. His percentage would suffer, and his 2nd attacked. I'm sure he could serve 125, but maybe 40% in....not good enough at ATP level.
 

LuckyR

Legend
The OP is asking why Schwartzman can't hit his serve harder (meaning faster), from a biomechanical standpoint. The answer is he can, from a biomechanical standpoint. He chooses to put his racquethead speed energy into more spin than pace since his game does not depend on aces, service winners nor serve + 1 winners. He is seeking placement first then action on the serve to lead to consistancy, not pace. It's more about preventing return winners and just starting the point. Rafa used to view the serve that way before he won the US Open the first time. He changes his serve philosophy (and his serve itself) in order to win the Open.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Also court level view is not the same as actual in person. The framerate, camera distance and zooming and other stuff will change your perspective of how fast and how high the ball really goes.
I think court level is far more representative of actual speed than aerial footage or TV coverage (which really disguises the speed of the ball), but yeah, still some variables that you mention to consider.
Rafa used to view the serve that way before he won the US Open the first time. He changes his serve philosophy (and his serve itself) in order to win the Open.
Sure, but Rafa also had some technical issues earlier in his career that meant he struggled to hit bombs and get them in (maybe in part because he isn't a natural lefty??). He's made improvements over the years, as you mention, that allow him to hit harder with more consistency, so I don't think it was just a philosophy holding him back.

I don't want to release the kraken, since it would appear there is quite a bit of p1ssing in the cornflakes already going on, but someone mentioned church (that's a joke for those who might misinterpret my tone), so here goes!

 

pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
I think court level is far more representative of actual speed than aerial footage or TV coverage (which really disguises the speed of the ball), but yeah, still some variables that you mention to consider.

Sure, but Rafa also had some technical issues earlier in his career that meant he struggled to hit bombs and get them in (maybe in part because he isn't a natural lefty??). He's made improvements over the years, as you mention, that allow him to hit harder with more consistency, so I don't think it was just a philosophy holding him back.

I don't want to release the kraken, since it would appear there is quite a bit of p1ssing in the cornflakes already going on, but someone mentioned church (that's a joke for those who might misinterpret my tone), so here goes!

Rafa doesn't seems to use this guy's teaching, perhaps not visibly though
 

Hagberg

Rookie
In yesterdays Monte Carlo quarter final between Schwarzman and Tsitsipas, I think we got an excellent sample of Diegos serve tactics.
He kept placing his first and second serve with high precision, time after time, high on the Tsitsipas backhand, thus setting the stage for a longer rally where he could keep the initiative.
The match was close and Tsitsipas looked really exhausted afterwards (compared to Schwarzman).
Schwarzman tries to win with his legs combined with reliable, accurate and hard ground strokes. The stats shown afterwards said he hits just as hard (121Kmh vs 122) as Tsitsipas on forehand and harder on backhand (116 vs 109).

From this match, the second serve is clearly the problem, not the first. Again, if he would have served another first serve instead of a second, and produced the same first serve stats, math says he would have won.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Rafa doesn't seems to use this guy's teaching, perhaps not visibly though

Oh I'm not saying that guy fixed his serve, hence the kraken comment, since it is controversial to say the least. The toss arm is still basically the same as always, and his pinpoint stance is still kinda odd where he bends down first like a platform server and then steps, but the one thing he has changed is a move away from that straight arm trophy position way way off the body.

Here is 2021 slowmo. Definitely bending the arm into trophy quicker than the old days, so that part has stuck and seems to be the most important for a good serve imo (based on this at least).

 

Aslan T

Rookie
Oh I'm not saying that guy fixed his serve, hence the kraken comment, since it is controversial to say the least. The toss arm is still basically the same as always, and his pinpoint stance is still kinda odd where he bends down first like a platform server and then steps, but the one thing he has changed is a move away from that straight arm trophy position way way off the body.

Here is 2021 slowmo. Definitely bending the arm into trophy quicker than the old days, so that part has stuck and seems to be the most important for a good serve imo (based on this at least).


Just crazy how little external rotation his serve has.
 
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