Is Djokovic better than Federer on every surface?

[ForehandCross]

2014-21 Djokovic > 2003-09 Federer

Federer won 1 more title but Djokovic's 3-0 in finals against Federer is huge.

Umm bigger than a R2 exit in 2016 and a QF exit in 2017?Add one more title to it and it becomes a little hard to bargain here.

 

[Madinolf]

Umm bigger than a R2 exit in 2016 and a QF exit in 2017?Add one more title to it and it becomes a little hard to bargain here.

Well Djokovic's 2014-21 includes the worst period of his career (2016 Shanghai to 2018 Roland Garros) which was not peak Novak at all.

 

[Kralingen]

On grass 2014-21 Djokovic > 2003-09 Federer

Federer won 1 more title but Djokovic's 3-0 in finals against Federer is huge.

Some of your posts are actually interesting and fact-based statistical arguments for Djokovic.

However this and the 'RG 2021 is the best Slam win ever' is pure BS and opinionated Fed-hating garbage a la Spencer Gore.

Yes, the guy who lost to Sam Querrey and Berdych is better than Federer who won 5 straight and only lost to a true ATG performance from Nadal in his best season ever. Please advise, this stuff hurts your reputation as I think you actually have some interesting perspective to offer. Saying things like this makes you no better than the trolls.

 

[ForehandCross]

Well Djokovic's 2014-21 includes the worst period of his career (2016 Shanghai to 2018 Roland Garros) which was not peak Novak at all.

Sorry I thought you were only talking of Wimbledon. I see you are talking of the entire performances.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Djokovic is worse than Federer grass until he reaches 8 titles. You can make the case for HC but it is very close and he is certainly greater than Federer on clay now.

 

[MichaelNadal]

 

[canta_Brian]

Djokovic is worse than Federer grass until he reaches 8 titles. You can make the case for HC but it is very close and he is certainly greater than Federer on clay now.

Djokovic is worse on grass than Federer full stop. Much as Federer is probably worse on grass than Sampras. Tennis is played against the field, stats/titles don’t tell the full story. If Sampras, Fed and Djok were all playing at the same time and age I can’t see Djok taking Wimbledon titles.

 

[CCPass]

Djokovic is worse on grass than Federer full stop. Much as Federer is probably worse on grass than Sampras. Tennis is played against the field, stats/titles don’t tell the full story. If Sampras, Fed and Djok were all playing at the same time and age I can’t see Djok taking Wimbledon titles.

As if it’s our problem that you are blind.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Djokovic is worse on grass than Federer full stop. Much as Federer is probably worse on grass than Sampras. Tennis is played against the field, stats/titles don’t tell the full story. If Sampras, Fed and Djok were all playing at the same time and age I can’t see Djok taking Wimbledon titles.

I disagree Federer is worse than Sampras on grass

 

[ForehandRF]

Some of your posts are actually interesting and fact-based statistical arguments for Djokovic.

However this and the 'RG 2021 is the best Slam win ever' is pure BS and opinionated Fed-hating garbage a la Spencer Gore.

Yes, the guy who lost to Sam Querrey and Berdych is better than Federer who won 5 straight and only lost to a true ATG performance from Nadal in his best season ever. Please advise, this stuff hurts your reputation as I think you actually have some interesting perspective to offer. Saying things like this makes you no better than the trolls.

I agree.Fed reached 7 finals in a row, winning 6 of them and that is second to none in the OE

 

[beard]

I understand your point, and can't say you are wrong...
But for me, if we compare two players with same number of slams, h2h is most important, specifically if they played so many finals. If both are in final it says both were inform...
Halle titles means absolutely nothing, same as Peking or Basel means nothing when determining hard court goat... Novak haven't bothered to play grass warm ups, that's how important it is...
I think more Wimbledon will be on the top of Novak's future goals, specially if grass field stay so poor...

Come on, this only shows that it usually takes the other GOAT candidate to beat Federer on grass. And 40-15 shows that Federer was as close as it gets. How this can be a tiebreaker AGAINST Federer is beyond me. I mean, the result already gave Djokovic one title more and Federer one title less. You want a double count for the CLOSEST possible result?

So yes, IF it’s even on titles, then of course additional finals (currently 4-1 for Federer) and additional other grasscourt titles (currently 10-1 for Federer) are the better tiebreaker.

If both their careers are over, then Djokovic must have done something wrong against the rest of the field if he always beats Federer and yet hasn’t more titles. And tennis is about beating fields. So let’s see what happens. I wouldn’t say 3 more titles is impossible.

 

[Biotic]

He's obviously better on clay, the 2nd RG at 34 is a slam dunk, if 5 Rome titles already weren't. Federer was mostly a nonfactor on clay post 2011, all things considered Djokovic has a far bigger window. Even comparing prime years only, he is slightly better, numbers back it up as per NonP's analysis, one tight match with light balls isn't changing that. Throwing in peak Nadal doesn't tip the scales as some would like to think, as Djokovic was also stopped quite a few times in 2008-2009, admitedly pre prime, nontheless a contender, most notably 2008 Hamburg, 2008 RG, 2009 MC, 2009 Madrid, and consequential 2009 RG exit for both.

Fedr better on grass, clear as day, tho Djoko would get his fair share of wins over a longer period.

HC is debatable, always will be. Faster courts will favor Federer, slower Djokovic.

 

[Madinolf]

Some of your posts are actually interesting and fact-based statistical arguments for Djokovic.

However this and the 'RG 2021 is the best Slam win ever' is pure BS and opinionated Fed-hating garbage a la Spencer Gore.

Yes, the guy who lost to Sam Querrey and Berdych is better than Federer who won 5 straight and only lost to a true ATG performance from Nadal in his best season ever. Please advise, this stuff hurts your reputation as I think you actually have some interesting perspective to offer. Saying things like this makes you no better than the trolls.

Federer in 2015 said he was playing his best tennis ever, and he won zero Slams because Djokovic denied him 3 times in a row (WI15, UO15, AO16). So results don't tell everything.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

He's obviously better on clay, the 2nd RG at 34 is a slam dunk, if 5 Rome titles already weren't. Federer was mostly a nonfactor on clay post 2011, all things considered Djokovic has a far bigger window. Even comparing prime years only, he is slightly better, numbers back it up as per NonP's analysis, one tight match with light balls isn't changing that. Throwing in peak Nadal doesn't tip the scales as some would like to think, as Djokovic was also stopped quite a few times in 2008-2009, admitedly pre prime, nontheless a contender, most notably 2008 Hamburg, 2008 RG, 2009 MC, 2009 Madrid, and consequential 2009 RG exit for both.

Fedr better on grass, clear as day, tho Djoko would get his fair share of wins over a longer period.

HC is debatable, always will be. Faster courts will favor Federer, slower Djokovic.

Objectivity at last.

 

[Harry_Wild]

Ice, maybe Federer has a chance?

 

[NoleIsBoat]

> Federer better on grass
> loses 3/3 Wimbledon finals

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Nadal post 2013 was never the same on clay, even in 2014 he was clearly weaker although he won FO. Titles speak, so Djokovic will be considered the best clay player of the two. Im just saying its a very special case, because its only Nadal standing in their way. Federer only lost to Nadal at FO from 2005 to 2011, except in 2010 when he lost to everyone. Peak for peak, i dont consider Djokovic the better player on clay, i think its about even.

It's close, but Djokovic has the edge adding a new RG trophy and beating Nadal AGAIN there. Yes, after 2013 he was never the same, but Federer also had a Nadal which wasn't playing at his peak in 2005 or 2011 and didn't beat him or take him to 5. Neither Federer or Djokovic beats a 2008/2010 Nadal on clay.

 

[ForehandRF]

It's close, but Djokovic has the edge adding a new RG trophy and beating Nadal AGAIN there. Yes, after 2013 he was never the same, but Federer also had a Nadal which wasn't playing at his peak in 2005 or 2011 and didn't beat him or take him to 5. Neither Federer or Djokovic beats a 2008/2010 Nadal on clay.

2005 loss was not a bad one for Fed as he wasn't that good at the French in those times, but for the 2011 loss he has no excuse.He was playing some of his finest tennis on Chatrier, he also had the momentum on his side after the huge win the SF, plus Nadal wasn't at his best.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Djoker never beat a good version of Fed at Wimbledon.

Djoker has a losing slam finals record at one of the HC slams, Fed does not.

RG? It's marginal, so who cares.

Lol. So Fed made three Wimbledon finals and had MP in 2019 but wasn’t “good.”2015 Fed was dominant until the final, where I fear nerves played a role.

 

[T007]

F

Modern surfaces - yes.

I think Federer would do better on faster grass and carpet

Old Federer still dominated Prime djokovic faster surfaces like Cincinnati and Sanghai.

Rest of Medium paced Hardcourts they are equal. Slower Hardcourts with high bounce djokovic is better.

 

[canta_Brian]

I understand your point, and can't say you are wrong...
But for me, if we compare two players with same number of slams, h2h is most important, specifically if they played so many finals. If both are in final it says both were inform...
Halle titles means absolutely nothing, same as Peking or Basel means nothing when determining hard court goat... Novak haven't bothered to play grass warm ups, that's how important it is...
I think more Wimbledon will be on the top of Novak's future goals, specially if grass field stay so poor...

Head to head with a 32 year old v a 37 year old. If you don’t understand how that match actually builds Fed’s resume rather than Djok’s then you are beyond help.

 

[abmk]

On grass 2014-21 Djokovic > 2003-09 Federer

Federer won 1 more title but Djokovic's 3-0 in finals against Federer is huge.

utter Djoko looney.
Fed ROFLSTOMPS on djokovic on grass peak to peak.
easily better at USO/fast HC, indoors as well
better on clay as well (even if Djokovic has achieved more due to more favorable circumstances)

2003-07 fed > best 5 years of DJokovic at Wimbledon both serving stats and returning stats worse.

Djokovic just ultra lucky with ~33 or older Federer.
past his prime fed beat prime djoko convincingly in Wim 12.

 

[abmk]

Some of your posts are actually interesting and fact-based statistical arguments for Djokovic.

However this and the 'RG 2021 is the best Slam win ever' is pure BS and opinionated Fed-hating garbage a la Spencer Gore.

Yes, the guy who lost to Sam Querrey and Berdych is better than Federer who won 5 straight and only lost to a true ATG performance from Nadal in his best season ever. Please advise, this stuff hurts your reputation as I think you actually have some interesting perspective to offer. Saying things like this makes you no better than the trolls.

He is a clueless Djokonatic who doesn't know sh*t about tennis before 2014 or so. Similar to Lew and Spencer Bore as far as lunacy/BS/hate goes.

 

[jm1980]

utter Djoko looney.
Fed ROFLSTOMPS on djokovic on grass peak to peak.
easily better at USO/fast HC, indoors as well
better on clay as well (even if Djokovic has achieved more due to more favorable circumstances)

2003-07 fed > best 5 years of DJokovic at Wimbledon both serving stats and returning stats worse.

Djokovic just ultra lucky with ~33 or older Federer.
past his prime fed beat prime djoko convincingly in Wim 12.

Peak Fed couldn't "stomp" baby Nadal at Wimbledon but yeah he's going to stomp Djokovic peak to peak, LOL

07 pre-prime Djokovic blew 6 SPs against Fed at the USO, or that could have easily been a 5 setter

But sure, "easily better" as always with Fed fans

 

[Crocodile]

Right now in the current situation you would have to say that Novak has the goods on all surfaces over Roger.
However, if Roger was at his best at the same time that Novak is then Roger would be better on grass,

 

[abmk]

Peak Fed couldn't "stomp" baby Nadal at Wimbledon but yeah he's going to stomp Djokovic peak to peak, LOL

07 pre-prime Djokovic blew 6 SPs against Fed at the USO, or that could have easily been a 5 setter

But sure, "easily better" as always with Fed fans

Fed bagelled Nadal in the 1st set and took the 4th set with a double break in Wim 06.

07 USO - even if Djokovic had won the 1st set, Federer would have raised his level then and taken it in 4 sets probably.
Lopez actually took the 1st set vs Fed (while playing well in sets 2 and 4 as well). Roddick played significantly better than Djokovic did, just that Fed was significantly better in the QF, hence Roddick couldn't take a set.
But yeah "easily" a 5-setter vs Djokovic. LOL!

07-09 USO - fed lost 1 set combined in 3 matches vs Djokovic.
In contrast peakest version of Djokovic had to save 2 MPs vs fed at his 7th best USO in 2011. So yeah, fed's easily better at the USO.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Fed bagelled Nadal in the 1st set and took the 4th set with a double break in Wim 06.

07 USO - even if Djokovic had won the 1st set, Federer would have raised his level then and taken it in 4 sets probably.
Lopez actually took the 1st set vs Fed (while playing well in sets 2 and 4 as well). Roddick played significantly better than Djokovic did, just that Fed was significantly better in the QF, hence Roddick couldn't take a set.
But yeah "easily" a 5-setter vs Djokovic. LOL!

07-09 USO - fed lost 1 set combined in 3 matches vs Djokovic.
In contrast peakest version of Djokovic had to save 2 MPs vs fed at his 7th best USO in 2011. So yeah, fed's easily better at the USO.

 

[Krish0608]

I think I can give an objective answer.

Lol. No you cannot.

 

[Spencer Gore]

Sad as it is for us Nadal fans, Djokovic is on his way to being the undisputed greatest of the poly-era. One only needs to re-watch Federer shanking the ball like a parks player, even throughout his "peak", or see Nadal constantly delivering short balls that barely clear the service box (if that!), to see how far Djokovic has progressed the game from the mid-2000s. He has consistency and controlled power that the other two -good as they are -can only dream of.

At their best, on all surfaces, Djokovic beats the other two -apart from Nadal on clay.

 

[RS]

Roddick of the USO 07 QF was on a similar level to Djokovic of the USO 15 final and better than Djokovic of the USO 07 final.

The only thing that is questionable about the post is USO 2011 is 6th best Federer at the USO IMO but everything else is correct.

 

[Kralingen]

Roddick of the USO 07 QF was on a similar level to Djokovic of the USO 15 final and better than Djokovic of the USO 07 final.

The only thing that is questionable about the post is USO 2011 is 6th best Federer at the USO IMO but everything else is correct.

USO Federer > Djokovic pretty clearly.

This is mainly due to muggy losses to Murray, Nadal, and Nishikori in successive prime years. Djokovic only has himself to blame, and honestly his peak level at the USO isn't that high (he was hurt or not 100% in 2011/15 though).

The USO is basically the thing holding back Djokovic from a strong GOAT resume.

 

[Biotic]

USO Federer > Djokovic pretty clearly.

This is mainly due to muggy losses to Murray, Nadal, and Nishikori in successive prime years. Djokovic only has himself to blame, and honestly his peak level at the USO isn't that high (he was hurt or not 100% in 2011/15 though).

The USO is basically the thing holding back Djokovic from a strong GOAT resume.

So, his "GOAT resume" is weak/not strong? Whose is stronger and why?

 

[Forehanderer]

Tough news for you rookie. Federer beat Djokovic on Federer's worst surface in Djokovic's prime. This is the deal

 

[RS]

USO Federer > Djokovic pretty clearly.

This is mainly due to muggy losses to Murray, Nadal, and Nishikori in successive prime years. Djokovic only has himself to blame, and honestly his peak level at the USO isn't that high (he was hurt or not 100% in 2011/15 though).

The USO is basically the thing holding back Djokovic from a strong GOAT resume.

Djokovic USO 11 SF > Roddick USO 07 QF ~ Djokovic USO 15 final > Djokovic USO 07 final.

 

[Kralingen]

So, his "GOAT resume" is weak/not strong? Whose is stronger and why?

It’s certainly not undisputed, if he had won two more USOs I think it would be close to undisputed.

 

[Biotic]

It’s certainly not undisputed, if he had won two more USOs I think it would be close to undisputed.

It wouldn't be even if he had 25. I thought that should be clear by now. Who cares? There's no goat anyway. But, it would be nice to know he's more successful than Federer, won more slams, beat him at his own game, with the rules being set by Federer himself (along with his fans lol).

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Djokovic USO 11 SF > Roddick USO 07 QF ~ Djokovic USO 15 final > Djokovic USO 07 final.

Great bait.

 

[RS]

Great bait.

Djokovic USO 11 SF - 9.5/10
Roddick USO 07 QF - 8.5/10
Djokovic USO 15 F - 8.5/10
Djokovic USO 07 F - 7.5/10

 

[TMF]

Peak Fed couldn't "stomp" baby Nadal at Wimbledon but yeah he's going to stomp Djokovic peak to peak, LOL

07 pre-prime Djokovic blew 6 SPs against Fed at the USO, or that could have easily been a 5 setter

But sure, "easily better" as always with Fed fans

Peak Nole was hanging on a shoestring against a 38 years old Federer on a slow grass. It would be ugly if they both met prime-prime, especially if the grass was like in 2003.

38 years old Federer also beat Nadal at Wimbledon, so you bringing up Nadal holds no water.

 

[jm1980]

Peak Nole was hanging on a shoestring against a 38 years old Federer on a slow grass. It would be ugly if they both met prime-prime, especially if the grass was like in 2003.

Hohoho you mean the grass that hasn't changed since 2001?

38 years old Federer also beat Nadal at Wimbledon, so you bringing up Nadal holds no water.

26 year old Federer lost to Nadal at WImbledon

 

[TMF]

Hohoho you mean the grass that hasn't changed since 2001?
I'm talking about the difference in speed and the height of the bounce. 2003 conditions was much suitable for Federer.

26 year old Federer lost to Nadal at WImbledon

So what. Djokovic lost to journeyman Querrey in 2016 3rd round is a far worse loss. The Final Federer/Nadal match was a great match that was decided by 1 or 2 points.

 

[jm1980]

So what. Djokovic lost to journeyman Querrey in 2016 3rd round is a far worse loss. The Final Federer/Nadal match was a great match that was decided by 1 or 2 points.

So? Federer lost to journeyman Stakhovsky in the 2nd round

 

[jm1980]

I'm talking about the difference in speed and the height of the bounce. 2003 conditions was much suitable for Federer

Your proof: Jim's Personal Blog

 

[TMF]

So? Federer lost to journeyman Stakhovsky in the 2nd round

You miss the forest for the trees.

Your proof: Jim's Personal Blog

Don't shoot the messenger. The BBC is the proof.

 

[jm1980]

You miss the forest for the trees.

Actually that's the specialty of Federer fans, who pick and choose his wins to "prove" Fed is the better player, while dismissing his losses due to age, homogenisation, or a number of other excuses

Don't shoot the messenger. The BBC is the proof.

Already debunked a million times, due to a number of issues:

It's not even one year, it's just one serve. If your intent is to show this is part of a deliberate effort to slow down the court, this is problematic for a number of reasons:

1. They are not the same serve: even if the serves are hit at the same initial speed, different spin rates or types of spin (eg: more topspin vs flatter) would result in a different bounce height and resulting speed at the baseline
2. Small sample size: It's one serve. The sample size is so small that it's not statistically significant at all. All kinds of things can happen when dealing with just one serve. Maybe it hit a bad patch of grass. Maybe the balls were fresher in one serve vs the other.
3. Ignores weather conditions: grass as a living surface is affected the most by the weather. Notoriously, rain prior to and during the tournament can make the surface play faster. Even if the conditions were truly slower, this could have happened just because of the weather rather than deliberate human intervention

But more important of all is, this contradicts the official stance from Wimbledon that there have been no changes to the surface since 2001.

Of course @TMF will continue to ignore all these problems and hold on to a throwaway graphic as if it were gospel

But it also contradicts the official position from Wimbledon and of respected journalists like Steve Tignor, and the players themselves:

Lol, I have Wimbledon's official website, Steve Tignor, a respected tennis journalist, and players like Nadal and Henman backing up my argument

You... You have Jim's personal blog

"Courts are sown with 100 per cent Perennial Ryegrass (since 2001) to improve durability and strengthen the sward to withstand better the increasing wear of the modern game. Perceived speed of a court is affected by a number of factors such as the general compacting of the soil over time, as well as the weather before and during the event. The ball will seem heavier and slower on a cold damp day and conversely lighter and faster on a warm dry day. There have been no changes to the specification of the ball since 1995, when there was a very minimal alteration in compression." - Wimbledon, 2021

"At the same time, though, these arguments are presented as if Wimbledon just slowed the grass down last weekend, and that it's busy slowing it down even more every night while you're sleeping. The truth is that the surface has been the same composition for 10 years, enough time so that you would think we could call what's played on it these days "grass-court tennis." In 2001, groundskeeper Eddie Seaward, who is retiring this year, changed the mix that was laid down, from 70 percent rye/30 percent fescue to 100 percent rye. He wanted more durability and firmness, and he got it. The all-rye was also cut a little higher, and the bounce was a little higher and slower. Henman noticed the difference right away that year, and it's been that way since. This year, in defending the current grass game, Rafael Nadal said that he first played here in 2002, and the surface hasn’t changed in that time." - Steve Tignor, 2011

Tim Henman, a serve-and-volley player, made four Wimbledon semifinals, but says the new grass forced him to alter his natural game midcareer. "I remember sitting at a change-over in 2002 in utter frustration and thinking 'What on earth is going on here? I'm on a grass court and it's the slowest court I've played on this year. - Tim Heman via TIME magazine

 

[TMF]

Actually that's the specialty of Federer fans, who pick and choose his wins to "prove" Fed is the better player, while dismissing his losses due to age, homogenisation, or a number of other excuses

No, this thread is strictly about Federer vs. Nole on grass. You were the one who brought up Nadal with a different dynamic match up. I play along and came up with Querrey.

6 years apart is a long time for a physically demanding sport like tennis. This is not dart, or billiard. You have to be intellectually dishonest if you think H2H at different age is not a factor.

Already debunked a million times, due to a number of issues:

No you haven't. All of your rambling are base on speculation, a poor attempt to discredit the BBC for their effort and time for investigating the grass speed and bounce between 2003 and 2008. You have no proof, just whine.

But it also contradicts the official position from Wimbledon and of respected journalists like Steve Tignor, and the players themselves:

There are numerous number of players, commentators and experts have stated that tennis court speed were gradually slowing down. Grass is one of them. Federer was so dominant, slowing down the court stop the bleeding.

The BBC put a final nail in the coffin !

 

[jm1980]

No, this thread is strictly about Federer vs. Nole on grass. You were the one who brought up Nadal with a different dynamic match up. I play along and came up with Querrey.

6 years apart is a long time for a physically demanding sport like tennis. This is not dart, or billiard. You have to be intellectually dishonest if you think H2H at different age is not a factor.

It's not Djokovic's fault Federer constantly loses matches at Wimbledon to him.

No you haven't. All of your rambling are base on speculation, a poor attempt to discredit the BBC for their effort and time for investigating the grass speed and bounce between 2003 and 2008. You have no proof, just whine.



There are numerous number of players, commentators and experts have stated that tennis court speed were gradually slowing down. Grass is one of them. Federer was so dominant, slowing down the court stop the bleeding.

The BBC put a final nail in the coffin !

You have no idea what the word "investigation" even means. A throwaway graphic put up by an intern is not an investigation nor is it "proof." You also repeatedly claim I have no proof, even though the utmost authority on the matter, i.e.: Wimbledon themselves, have repeatedly denied any further changes to the grass have been made since 2001. That is the ultimate proof. To dispute this, you have a BBC graphic and Jim's personal blog.

From where I'm standing, it looks like all the "whining" comes from the Fed fanbase, constantly whining about imagined slow downs of the grass that aren't backed up by a shred of actual evidence.

 

[canta_Brian]

Serve: Fed
Forehand: Fed
Backhand: Fed (ohbh = prettier, thbh = what you do if you’re not good enough to ohbh)
Volleys: Fed
Smash: (close one this ) Fed
Doing the splits: Djokovic
Pushing: Djokovic
Faking injuries: Djokovic
Smashing racquets: Djokovic
Inspiring devotion from creepy people on internet: Djokovic

Anything I’ve missed?

 

[Biotic]

Serve: Fed
Forehand: Fed
Backhand: Fed (ohbh = prettier, thbh = what you do if you’re not good enough to ohbh)
Volleys: Fed
Smash: (close one this ) Fed
Doing the splits: Djokovic
Pushing: Djokovic
Faking injuries: Djokovic
Smashing racquets: Djokovic
Inspiring devotion from creepy people on internet: Djokovic

Anything I’ve missed?

Yes.

Inducing psychotic tendencies among other fanbases: Djokovic.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Yes.

Inducing psychotic tendencies among other fanbases: Djokovic.

being psychotic: Djokovic