martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
After only Borg and Nadal. He has 1 less French than Wilander, Lendl, Kuerten, but blows them away in all other clay stats.
Is Djokovic the 3rd best clay courter ever
- Thread starter martinezownsclay
- Start date
Adv. Edberg
Legend
He’s not even top 10 mate. Wilander, Muster, Bruguera to name a few are way better. You have to take into account that Djoko plays in the weakest era ever compared to the early 90s which had a lot of actual clay specialists
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I think Lendl is ahead of Djokovic on clay.
I’ve been really impressed by Kuerten’s best matches but he’s not nearly as consistent as Djokovic and his longevity frankly doesn’t touch Novak’s. I also think his first RG run is a bit overrated and was greatly helped by poly.
Have not seen enough of Wilander to comment.
Novak is probably around top 4/5 all time on the surface. Maybe even 6th. He gets there on his consistency and longevity, but I’m inclined to rate a few other clay courters higher in terms of sustained peak.
I’ve been really impressed by Kuerten’s best matches but he’s not nearly as consistent as Djokovic and his longevity frankly doesn’t touch Novak’s. I also think his first RG run is a bit overrated and was greatly helped by poly.
Have not seen enough of Wilander to comment.
Novak is probably around top 4/5 all time on the surface. Maybe even 6th. He gets there on his consistency and longevity, but I’m inclined to rate a few other clay courters higher in terms of sustained peak.
Adv. Edberg
Legend
Lendl is closer to goat than Djoko will ever be. Even Henman said so during Wimbledon
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I think the 12 fewer Slams would be a bit of a tricky obstacle to overcome but you do you i suppose
game..set..match
Semi-Pro
How many of those guys can beat nadal at Roland garros ? I reckon none except djokovic which has been demonstrated already.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
xFedal
Legend
U don't think Ultron is top 3 clay? If not for king of clay Ultron would be king of clay lol.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Of course not.
Nadal, Borg, Rosewall the top 3 on clay.
Novak Djokovic might just about make the top 10.
Nadal, Borg, Rosewall the top 3 on clay.
Novak Djokovic might just about make the top 10.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
U don't think Ultron is top 3 clay? If not for king of clay Ultron would be king of clay lol.
All I did was put on some glasses
D
Deleted member 771911
Guest
Kuerten.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
3. Lendl
4. Djokovic
5. Wilander
6 Kuerten
7. Federer
8. Bruguera
9. Courier
10. Muster and Vilas (tied)
NonP
Legend
I've already explained to you jokers Novak's place among ATG dirtallers ad nauseam, but since I just posted my infallible GGOAT list here are the definitive rankings of GCOATs (read: multi-FOers) since the mid-'70s:
Peak:
Borg/Bull
Guga
Ivan/Sergi
Jim
Mats/Nole
Series (again over 3-5 yrs):
Borg/Bull
Ivan
Mats/Guga
Sergi
Jim/Nole
Overall (including career records):
Bull
Borg
Ivan/Guga
Mats
Sergi
Jim/Nole
And I'll do y'all a favor and proceed with the rest of the post-'76 rankings (similar to last year's list, with some minor changes):
Vilas*/Muster/Fred
Agassi/JFC
Panatta
Chang/Stan
Kafelnikov/Costa
Noah
Gómez/Moyá
Gaudio
*Willy is really impossible to rank due to the half draw in '77, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for his fully legit USO on green clay later that year and for several more dominant runs at RG only to be stopped by you-know-who.
You're welcome.
Peak:
Borg/Bull
Guga
Ivan/Sergi
Jim
Mats/Nole
Series (again over 3-5 yrs):
Borg/Bull
Ivan
Mats/Guga
Sergi
Jim/Nole
Overall (including career records):
Bull
Borg
Ivan/Guga
Mats
Sergi
Jim/Nole
And I'll do y'all a favor and proceed with the rest of the post-'76 rankings (similar to last year's list, with some minor changes):
Vilas*/Muster/Fred
Agassi/JFC
Panatta
Chang/Stan
Kafelnikov/Costa
Noah
Gómez/Moyá
Gaudio
*Willy is really impossible to rank due to the half draw in '77, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for his fully legit USO on green clay later that year and for several more dominant runs at RG only to be stopped by you-know-who.
You're welcome.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Well if someone on the internet says it's definitive then I guess the war is over.
daggerman
Hall of Fame
Just curious: what would Wilander do to beat Djokovic in a Bo5 match on clay? How'd he go about it?
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Courier was better than djokovic on clay probably too. Djokovic is no slouch on the dirts however. Top 8-10 somewhere. He’s probably on par with bruguera. Nadal, borg, Rosewall, Muster, Courier, Lendl, Kuerten were better as their games just translated better on clay
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Not even top 10? Lol. There are only 9 men in the OE who even won at least 2 RG titles.
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Tennisfan339
Professional
Not many guys have won the FO Open more than twice in the Open Era. Borg, Nadal and maybe 2 other but that's it. don't know how many Masters1000 and how many FO Final, Semifinals,... these other guys had. These stats are important too. But I doubt any of them would've been able to beat Nadal there, let alone twice.
If there was no Nadal, Djokovic would already have the same number of FO as Borg. When I see how prime Nadal struggled against him in 2008 and then how he demolished Federer in the final, there is little doubt in my mind Djokovic would've beaten Federer and won FO 2008. Maybe also 2007, though it's debattable.
No way he would've lost to Ferrer in 2013 and he loses 3 times against Nadal in finals.
Obviously if it weren't for Nadal, Federer would also have minumum 4 or 5 French Open. IMO Djokovic and Federer are undoubtly the 2nd and 3rd best clay players of the century. Hard to compare them to Borg and former FO winners, on the other hand.
If there was no Nadal, Djokovic would already have the same number of FO as Borg. When I see how prime Nadal struggled against him in 2008 and then how he demolished Federer in the final, there is little doubt in my mind Djokovic would've beaten Federer and won FO 2008. Maybe also 2007, though it's debattable.
No way he would've lost to Ferrer in 2013 and he loses 3 times against Nadal in finals.
Obviously if it weren't for Nadal, Federer would also have minumum 4 or 5 French Open. IMO Djokovic and Federer are undoubtly the 2nd and 3rd best clay players of the century. Hard to compare them to Borg and former FO winners, on the other hand.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Winning % on clay
1. Nadal - 91.52%
2. Borg - 85.71%
3. Lendl - 81.03%
4. Djokovic - 80.53%
5. Vilas - 79.90%
Winning % in RG (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 97.22%
2. Borg - 96.08%
3. Djokovic - 84.38%
4. Wilander - 83.93%
5. Kuerten - 81.92%
6. Courier - 81.63%
7. Lendl - 81.54%
8. Federer - 81.11%
Winning % versus top 10 (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 81.67%
2. Borg - 72.13%
3. Lendl - 66.67%
4. Rosewall - 63.33%
5. Wilander - 61.54%
6. Djokovic - 58.44%
Winning % versus top 5 (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 79.71%
2. Borg - 73.33%
3. Lendl - 65%
4. Ramirez - 50% @RaulRamirez
5. Djokovic - 48.98%
Most RG titles
1. Nadal - 13
2. Borg - 6
3. Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten - 3
6. Kodes, Courier, Bruguera, Djokovic - 2
Most RG finals
1. Nadal - 13
2. Borg - 7
3. Djokovic - 6
4. Lendl, Wilander, Federer - 5
7. Vilas - 4
Most big clay titles
1. Nadal - 39
2. Borg, Djokovic - 12
4. Lendl - 9
5. Muster, Kuerten, Federer - 7
Djokovic is being underrated as usual. It looks like he's definitely somewhere in the top 10 although top 3 is kind of pushing it. He and Lendl are neck and neck, but Lendl is kind of edging him in some stats. Based on this, Djokovic is around #4 or #5 on clay in the Open Era.
1. Nadal - 91.52%
2. Borg - 85.71%
3. Lendl - 81.03%
4. Djokovic - 80.53%
5. Vilas - 79.90%
Winning % in RG (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 97.22%
2. Borg - 96.08%
3. Djokovic - 84.38%
4. Wilander - 83.93%
5. Kuerten - 81.92%
6. Courier - 81.63%
7. Lendl - 81.54%
8. Federer - 81.11%
Winning % versus top 10 (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 81.67%
2. Borg - 72.13%
3. Lendl - 66.67%
4. Rosewall - 63.33%
5. Wilander - 61.54%
6. Djokovic - 58.44%
Winning % versus top 5 (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 79.71%
2. Borg - 73.33%
3. Lendl - 65%
4. Ramirez - 50% @RaulRamirez
5. Djokovic - 48.98%
Most RG titles
1. Nadal - 13
2. Borg - 6
3. Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten - 3
6. Kodes, Courier, Bruguera, Djokovic - 2
Most RG finals
1. Nadal - 13
2. Borg - 7
3. Djokovic - 6
4. Lendl, Wilander, Federer - 5
7. Vilas - 4
Most big clay titles
1. Nadal - 39
2. Borg, Djokovic - 12
4. Lendl - 9
5. Muster, Kuerten, Federer - 7
Djokovic is being underrated as usual. It looks like he's definitely somewhere in the top 10 although top 3 is kind of pushing it. He and Lendl are neck and neck, but Lendl is kind of edging him in some stats. Based on this, Djokovic is around #4 or #5 on clay in the Open Era.
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Mediterranean Might
Professional
Djokovic is 4th for me behind Lendl as well, but with the numbers above you can make the argument for a potential #3 since he was constantly blocked by the God-King of clay
I do think Djokovic’s peak level on clay is underrated on here, as he demonstrated it against Rafael Nadal and I hate to say it, no one like the Kuerten, Lendl, Bruguera, Couriers in history have played someone of peak Nadal’s level. There has never been a more difficult player to play against on clay than Rafa either imo in terms of disrupting your game and getting undisputed winners back.
I am truly cracking up at the idea of Muster being better than Djokovic on clay by the way. He was the King of Clay but has far fewer achievements on the surface than Djokovic and made the QFs at Roland Garros only THREE times. Pete has 4, for reference. That’s laughably bad, and I’m not making that statistic up. Look it up.
I am truly cracking up at the idea of Muster being better than Djokovic on clay by the way. He was the King of Clay but has far fewer achievements on the surface than Djokovic and made the QFs at Roland Garros only THREE times. Pete has 4, for reference. That’s laughably bad, and I’m not making that statistic up. Look it up.
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MadariKatu
Hall of Fame
I consider both Federer and Djokovic to be clay ATG. But for that I have in higher regard what Djokovic did during Nadal's peak, than beating him in 2015 or 2021.
The same Lendl that couldn't beat Chang on one leg???
RaulRamirez
Legend
Nice shout-out to my screen name.Winning % on clay
1. Nadal - 91.52%
2. Borg - 85.71%
3. Lendl - 81.03%
4. Djokovic - 80.53%
5. Vilas - 79.90%
Winning % in RG (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 97.22%
2. Borg - 96.08%
3. Djokovic - 84.38%
4. Wilander - 83.93%
5. Kuerten - 81.92%
6. Courier - 81.63%
7. Lendl - 81.54%
8. Federer - 81.11%
Winning % versus top 10 (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 81.67%
2. Borg - 72.13%
3. Lendl - 66.67%
4. Rosewall - 63.33%
5. Wilander - 61.54%
6. Djokovic - 58.44%
Winning % versus top 5 (at least 25 matches)
1. Nadal - 79.71%
2. Borg - 73.33%
3. Lendl - 65%
4. Ramirez - 50% @RaulRamirez
5. Djokovic - 48.98%
Most RG titles
1. Nadal - 13
2. Borg - 6
3. Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten - 3
6. Kodes, Courier, Bruguera, Djokovic - 2
Most RG finals
1. Nadal - 13
2. Borg - 7
3. Djokovic - 6
4. Lendl, Wilander, Federer - 5
7. Vilas - 4
Most big clay titles
1. Nadal - 39
2. Borg, Djokovic - 12
4. Lendl - 9
5. Muster, Kuerten, Federer - 7
Djokovic is being underrated as usual. It looks like he's definitely somewhere in the top 10 although top 3 is kind of pushing it. He and Lendl are neck and neck, but Lendl is kind of edging him in some stats. Based on this, Djokovic is around #4 or #5 on clay in the Open Era.
itrium84
Hall of Fame
Wait wait wait, being blocked by clay GOD is weakest era ever!?
StannisTheMannis
Hall of Fame
Look at these copers. You people have lost yourselves. Look in the mirror and understand it’ll be ok supporting the second best
None of these guys lost 3 RG finals to Nadal 3 times in RG finals, and beat him 2 other times. Yeh, the weakest era had by far the best clay player in history. That makes perfect sense, only to you!
I'd say Djokovic is the 3rd best clay courter in history!
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Sounds right. His clay game is very good. He or Lendl.
NoleIsBoat
Hall of Fame
I think he is 3rd. Lendl has the RG, but Djokovic has way more clay masters in a stronger era, plus 2 more RG finals and way more SF.
Is Federer even top 10? 0 traditional clay court masters (Rome or MC), pitiful record against Nadal, vultured only RG vs Del potro and Soderling.
Is Federer even top 10? 0 traditional clay court masters (Rome or MC), pitiful record against Nadal, vultured only RG vs Del potro and Soderling.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Really? Care to back up this assertion? Anyone with 3 FO's is above Djokovic.
Lendl: 3 RG's, 28 clay titles
Wilander: 3 RG's, 20 clay titles
Kuerten: 3 RG's 17 clay titles
Djokovic: 2 RG's, 17 clay titles
Honorable mention:
Muster: 1 RG, 42 clay titles
Vilas: 1 RG, 46 clay titles
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
MrFlip
Professional
Observation.
Federer would beat Lendl, Keurten etc. Not saying Lendl and Borg etc are slow, but older players don't match up with the speed and skill of todays slam winners. Lendl and Borg etc could beat most of the non-slam winners for sure.
I think it's acknowledged that Federer would have won all the RGs he lost against Nadal if Nadal wasn't around.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
This is possible. But Federer never made a final after 2011, he was not even 30 in 2011. So his results shouldn't be exaggerated.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
I was thinking things like Masters titles, RG finals, RG semis. Those are the most important clay stats outside of RG titles, not tiny clay tournaments.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
I mean I see many argue on here Federer is 5th or 6th on clay, and I am pretty sure Djokovic 100% has to be higher than wherever Federer is on the surface.
Rosewall career wise is obviously much better, but I am just talking Open Era and hardly any of Rosewall's greatness on anything is on the Open Era, a bit of it on clay but not much of it.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
one comes to TTW for the fun and memes. Not for tennis knowledge
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
If Djokovic could time travel with his equipment he would simply destroy players like Borg or Lendl at the FO. I’m talking 6-0,6-0, 6-0.We really need to stop with this whole worship of past players. Tennis technology and training has moved on. You look at some of the points from the FO Borg-Lendl final and it looks like something you see in a weekend match in your local courts.
what could a wooden racquet wielding Borg do against a player like Novak? in what area could he even compete? Not serve, not return, not speed in the court. You need to imagine an alternative reality where Borg trains as a child with modern equipment.
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