Is Djokovic the greatest clay court player NOT to have won the French?

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
If you look at accomplishments (winning percentage and Masters titles on clay), Djokovic is ahead of Federer and in fact most other RG champions.

If he doesn't manage to win RG, would he be the greatest clay player not to have won it?
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
I'd like Djokovic's chances against the likes of Chang, Agassi, Muster, or Courier on the dirt. Not to take anything away from those guys, but they never had to deal with Nadal in a FO final.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic actually has 12 clay titles. And the answer is yes but be prepared for lots of Fed fans entering this thread saying no and that titans of the sport like Coria and Soderling were in fact greater. LMAO.

Prime Soderling was very dangerous, alot like Wawrinka last year. Coria was also a great clay courter but just didn't demonstrate adequate consistency.
 

90's Clay

Banned
Nadal alone is worth about equal to everyone Sampras faced on clay combined (considering Kuerten is excluded as he played zero matches vs Sampras on clay).


A tough draw riddled with MULTIPLE great clay talents and French Open champions is tougher than Nadal IMO. You can plan to play Nadal (And lets be really here, Nadal is the clay GOAT but he hasn't been Unbeatable since 2008 at the French really). The 90s brought so many different styles of guys to play against who were at their best on clay\


Nadal has also been very beatable on clay the last few years. Its not as though Novak has dealt with PEAK Clay Nadal at the French recently.


Regardless, Its easier to prepare for 1 guy in a semis or finals than it is deal with great players in both the 1st and 2nd week.
 

Tenez!

Professional
Djokovic is currently 6th all time in clay win percentage and he has 10 career clay titles!

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/fedex-performance-zone-career-clay-records
he has 12 titles, 8 Masters + 4 ATP250s (Dutch Open, Portugal Open, 2x Belgrade Open).
Amusingly Wawrinka leads him in finals on clay (1-2).

Its 10x tougher clay field than Nole has in terms of depth.. You can't argue that
Nadal alone is worth about equal to everyone Sampras faced on clay combined (considering Kuerten is excluded as he played zero matches vs Sampras on clay).
I was going to say that. Not a great fan of Nadal but this message is just dripping with bitterness at a certain recent withdrawal.
Nadal has 9 more clay titles than Muster, and more clay titles than Courier (5), Kafelnikov (3), Agassi (7), Medvedev (9) & Kuerten (14) together (=38)!
How on earth could you claim he was not the ultimate roadblock for Djokovic? Just because he finally solved Nadal after 2011, which Federer never did, doesn't make the Spaniard any less of a Cerberus.

As I once read, "the closest Sampras ever got to the Roland Garros crown is Charles de Gaulle airport".
 
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A tough draw riddled with MULTIPLE great clay talents and French Open champions is tougher than Nadal IMO.

In every year except 1996 Sampras either lost to the first strong clay courter he faced, or didnt even face a strong clay courter since he lost to someone who wouldnt even qualify as that. Thus for each year you are really only comparing one player in his case, not multiple. If you want to talk about someone who suffered from the 90s clay depth to begin with, they would have to first be better than Sampras on clay to have encountered the depth. Like say Agassi, Corretja, Rios, Mantilla, might have suffered from the clay depth, not Sampras.

1992: Agassi was first strong clay courter he faced and lost. Best opponent before that was the world #32 Carl Uwe Steeb.

1993: Bruguera was the first strong clay courter he faced and lost. Nadal > Bruguera obviously. His biggest win en route to Bruguera was unseeded clay court master Malivai Washington.

1994: Courier was the first strong clay courter he faced and lost. A past prime Courier too. Nadal > Courier (especialy 94 Courier). The only player he faced before that even in the top 100 was world #25 doubles specialist/fast courter Paul Haarhuis.

1995: Gilbert Schaller was the first person he faced and lost.

1996: his one strong performance where he might have suffered some from the deep clay field for the only time ever.

1997: lost in 3rd round to a nowhere near his prime Magnus Norman, the world #65. His best win in the 1st 2 rounds was world #31 Francisco Clavet, a decent clay courter, who never made a slam quarterfinal.

1998: lost in 1st round to Roman Delgado.

1999: lost in 2nd round to the world #100. In fairness to Sampras that world #100 ended up making the final here, but he also won overtime in a 5th set against a guy who retired without winning a single round in a grand slam his whole career the round before that.

2000: lost in the 1st round to the clay court great Mark Philipoussis.

you get the idea. Sampras did not suffer one bit from a strong clay field, other than maybe a bit in 96 where he scored big wins (for him on clay) over a slumping/back from injury Bruguera (who was 6-5 on clay for the year), Todd Martin, and a way past his prime Courier, before getting smoked by Kafelnikov. He never faced more than 1 good clay courter (apart from 96) as he never advanced past the 1st good clay courter he faced any other year. So each can be compared directly to Nadal, nobody else, and each is far weaker.

Nadal has also been very beatable on clay the last few years. Its not as though Novak has dealt with PEAK Clay Nadal at the French recently.

Yes I am sure Sampras would have had no problem dealing with 2010-2014 Nadal at RG. :D
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Djokovic actually has 12 clay titles. And the answer is yes but be prepared for lots of Fed fans entering this thread saying no and that titans of the sport like Coria and Soderling were in fact greater. LMAO.

Oh come on suge (;)), no Federer fan would argue that. Unless we're talking facetiously.
 

mightyrick

Legend
Absolutely. Djokovic is the best clay courter to not win the FO. I don't know how it can be argued.

I think Roddick might be the best grass court player to not win Wimbledon.
 

Fiero425

Legend
Absolutely. Djokovic is the best clay courter to not win the FO. I don't know how it can be argued.

I think Roddick might be the best grass court player to not win Wimbledon.

Some people have bad luck at an event! Look at Nadal at the YEC; lucky to make a couple finals! It happens; Borg at USO, Lendl at Wimbledon, and Sampras, Connors, and McEnroe at the FO! ;-/
 
He's no ATG; or ever will be! lol! I know full well his failures at the AO! BITE YOUR TONGUE putting him in the same sentence as these other great players! lol! :p

Murray on slow hard courts > Lendl on grass, McEnroe on clay, Connors on clay and >>> Sampras on clay. So what if he isnt an ATG, those guys sure as heck arent ATGs on those particular surfaces, not even close. I think Murray not winning the Australian Open of all those is probably the biggest misfortune given that caliber of hard court player he is (vs those not so great clay courters not winning the French).

In Sampras's own era it is a much bigger shame that guys like Rios and Corretja, WAY better clay courters than Sampras, didnt get a French title, than Sampras not getting one. Would add Medvedev, Mantilla, Berasetegui, Norman, Pioline, Mancini, Chesnokov, and possibly some others as players who were better clay courters to not get a RG title than Sampras too. Of course if he did it, it would have been awesome since he is the great Sampras, and everyone would have been happy to see it, even his non fans like me, but that he didnt get it isnt really a shame when he isnt that great a clay courter at all.
 
Sampras is a non entity on that surface.

I wouldnt be quite that harsh as he did win Rome 94 with some excellent clay court tennis, Davis Cup for the U.S in 95 on clay, and reached the semis of the 96 French with some good wins. Yes he was as much a non entity on the surface as such a great can be on any surface though.

As for comparing Sampras to Djokovic on clay, I should not have even joked about 90s clay doing that, since what was to come was inevitable.
 
V

VexlanderPrime

Guest
I don't see how this is even a question. The record and results speak for itself. He'd a be a multi-RG winner already if he wasn't blocked by the KoC. He's been KoC-blocked.
 
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