Lew II
G.O.A.T.
So you're saying that ATGs influence the level of play? I agree. That's why I think Federer's first 10 slams had weak competition.
Is Fed the most TALENTED player ever?
- Thread starter Nadalgaenger
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MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Well it balances out, Fed also had a head start. Outside of the FO he was a shoe in for every slam from 04-07. Without Rafa he may have very well won 10 straight slams
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
So you agree then that looking at slam wins is a bad way to judge longevity?
Otherwise I would have to conclude Fed was an early bloomer and Djokodal late bloomers.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Not at all, bc you have to be good enough to win them, and all 3 of them clearly are. Only a select few people in tennis history have won slams over the span of years that they have and it means something.
True greats slay for decades
These pics of Shawn are 20 years apart
RaulRamirez
Legend
If they were all the same age, then yes.
vex
Legend
Competition is irrelevant to a player’s own level of play.
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
Look at the stats Lew posted, Djokodal winning more slams post age 28 than Fed. Doesn't mean they have more longevity. Put 30 year old Fed with rivals Thiem and Medvedev instead of peak Djokodal and he racks up one slam after another, instead of just the 4 slams he won in his thirties.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
But Fed wasn't winning slams in his teens
Thiem would be a 2 time FO champ already without Nadal (and he'd have an AO without Novak) it's not like they are weak.
/origin-imgresizer.eurosport.com/2017/04/17/2064716-43289807-2560-1440.jpg)
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
But Fed wasn't winning slams in his teens
Thiem would be a 2 time FO champ already without Nadal (and he'd have an AO without Novak) it's not like they are weak.
It's not that they're weak, but they're far weaker than Prime Djokodal.
For me for Djokodal to match Fed's longevity, they will have to play a slam final near age 38. Let's wait and see, I'm not saying it's impossible (nothing surprise me anymore).
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
His fans will say yes, while fans of other players will probably say no. Lol. When you are talking about using your racket like a surgeon then Federer is at the top of the pile. There's nothing this guy can't do with a racket. However, talent manifests itself in multiple ways. Can he blast to his left and rip forehands down the line on the run like Nadal where the ball catches the line everytime? Can he slide to his left crushing backhands down the line like Djokovic? Can he volley like Mac? Serve under pressure like Pete? It's too subjective but the media kind of got into everyone's head 15 years ago with the way they worshipped his every move. Yes he is extremely talented but the most talented? I don't know.
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zagor
Bionic Poster
Yet he still had young Rafa to stop him at the FO. Soon after, Novak also arrived. There have been zero players with ATG potential in 2-3 gens in a row now, it's embarrassing and frankly unprecedented.
Who's better between the big 3 is largely subjective but no way will I ever buy Djokodal having better longevity than Fed to such a degree.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
The only reason they aren't winning slams though is bc the big 3 are wrecking them. They aren't as consistent as the big 3, but no one is.
With all his talent, Nastase lost to important finals to forty plus year old Rosewall and had an inferior H-H vs Ken. Physical talent is a great advantage but so is mental stability. I do think that Federer is probably, all round, the most talented player I ever saw. I will also say that Sampras was extremely talented, and much underrated in that respect. Roger's main advantage over Pete was physical stamina which accounts for his outstanding longevity.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Nah man, I respect your opinion but I disagree. Most of the time they're losing even before they reach big 3, they care more about Instagram than winning tennis matches.
Thiem is the only consistent force and the guy managed to win one big match in his career (against a 40 year old Fed) and he'll turn 27 this year.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
Philipoussis
Safin
Roddick
Hewitt
Roddick
Agassi
Baghdatis
Nadal
Roddick
Gonzo
Aside from Philipoussis and Baghdatis to mug it up, who else was there at the time? Sampras was gone. Those guys were the best of their era and Fed crushed them all. You can only beat the players you face.
His next two wins were over Nadal and Djokovic, so I can see why you didn't include them. lol
How is Rafa a late bloomer when he won the French on his first entry at 18/19?
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Murray is a better player than 8/10 of them, let alone Big3.
Terry Tibbs
Hall of Fame
Rios and Nalbandian! Haha. Laughing my head off!
beast of mallorca
G.O.A.T.
Djokodal have each other...to answer your question
skaj
Legend
How embarrassing for you.
btsjungkook
Professional
Does he also have the biggest nose in tennis history?
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
Nice point on Nalbandian. He was a freakish talent.
An old friend of mine used to hit with him in Juniors. Dude would be able to hit very small targets with almost inhuman accuracy.
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
That's absolutely true, I'm very high on Murray, but he didn't make a Final until 2008.
So that's not included in the "first 10 Slams" comment I was responding to.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Not on the serve though I'm guessing.
I have a similar account about PETE's serve.
D
Deleted member 766172
Guest
I would think that yes, he is the most talented of all professional tennis players in history. At least that would be my best guess.
What's crazy to think is how many people there are in the world that were more talented than Federer who didn't have an opportunity to play tennis, or start playing young with adequate practice/facilities. Myself included. If I had started younger with better opportunities, no doubt I would have been the next Federer, no doubt at all.
What's crazy to think is how many people there are in the world that were more talented than Federer who didn't have an opportunity to play tennis, or start playing young with adequate practice/facilities. Myself included. If I had started younger with better opportunities, no doubt I would have been the next Federer, no doubt at all.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Never let that get in the way of assailing strawmen, is the strategy. Has been for a long time.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Not just Thiem, Medvedev too pushed Nadal all the way at US Open and Nadal still won. What did Fed do against Delpo, Berdych, Tsonga? Yeah. The years 30-31 were when he wasted maximum opportunities to win slams. I honestly think he got a little complacent for a while before realising Nole wasn't just going to be a Nadal-spoiler but a contender for the slam tally. That's when he woke up again in 2012. But those couple of years, the wasted MPs against Nole at both USO 2011 and Wimbledon 2019 all finally count when the next two are Nadal and Djokovic. Had he enjoyed Sampras' luxury...of having Agassi a whole Edberg/Becker behind him in slams, it would be different. Fed's 'luck' in 04-07 has been overcompensated by having two GOAT contenders right behind him. No previous GOAT anointee has dealt with that. In Laver's time, it was completing a grand slam in a year that counted and none of the younger guys who replaced him even got four in a career, let alone a year.
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, I genuinely think he is the most talented guy, as nebulous as that word is.
I think Nadal and Novak have a real edge in the mental game. You can say that's a talent as well.
But when it just comes to the technical capacity of producing high-level tennis, I do think Fed stands without peer. Say you put them on a practice court, take away the pressure of a major final, and I think Fed is the one capable of producing better pure tennis. When in full flight, I think he reaches a higher, more unplayable level. That's my genuine belief, though I respect that some wouldn't share it.
Nadal and Nole (and many other legends) are also extremely talented, and having the mental fortitude to perform your best in the tight moments is a legit part of the game of course.
I think Nadal and Novak have a real edge in the mental game. You can say that's a talent as well.
But when it just comes to the technical capacity of producing high-level tennis, I do think Fed stands without peer. Say you put them on a practice court, take away the pressure of a major final, and I think Fed is the one capable of producing better pure tennis. When in full flight, I think he reaches a higher, more unplayable level. That's my genuine belief, though I respect that some wouldn't share it.
Nadal and Nole (and many other legends) are also extremely talented, and having the mental fortitude to perform your best in the tight moments is a legit part of the game of course.
Start da Game
Hall of Fame
no he isn't........there a many flaws in his forecourt game and his backhand........
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Except no Fed fan has ever argued that.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Henin had more talent.
For example, if he were short he would've had no impact on the game.
For example, if he were short he would've had no impact on the game.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yeah, Nadal has been supreme competition to Djokovic with no wins off-clay in over 6 years and no sets won on HC for over 6 years.
And let's not forget the gazillion amount of 3 times Djokovic has had to beat Nadal in slams in the last 5 years.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Medvedev had one great run and still played terrible in the first two sets in the USO final, that doesn't make him a challenger/heir to the throne but simply a player that had a hot streak.
Don't think Fed got complacent, it was inevitable he's gonna suffer a lul/drop in form, no one can keep his intensity year after year for so long. ATGs in general usually suffer a letdown as they near 29-30, you could see it with Nadal in 2015/2016, Novak in 2017, Sampras in 2000/2001 etc. the difference with the big 3 is that they came back from it, re-tooled their games somewhat and returned to solid slam winning form.
And even Fed's luck in 2004-2007 is overstated really, he only had 2004 without a young lion chasing him and the field still had decent depth that year, I actually think Fed's been quite resilient in his 30s all things considered, pretty sure both Novak and Nadal would have also showed plenty of cracks in the same situation despite their tremendous mental fortitude.
If there has been one constant in tennis throughout its history, it's that young ATGs have a clear decisive age over the older ones (and for a good reason), it used to be the greatest competition a sportsman can have, the one from younger peers seeking to usurp him. It's only now with two failed generations in a row that it's suddenly "experience is the deciding factor", "player xy is playing better than EVAR in his 30s", "big 3 are the bestest ever" and similar drivel.
Yeah, somehow I don't see Dimitrov, Raonic and Nishikori being anymore than era fillers no matter which time period you transport them to. Ditto for the instagram gen. Blaming all on their failures on the supposed super evolved, tougher than ever big 3 is getting a bit tiresome when Djokodal can affored to play two terrible sets in a slam final and still end up smelling like roses.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Federer had some lulls at 29-30 like Djokodal had at the same ages, just not as severe.
Even if he hadn't had those losses to Berdych, Tsonga and co, he would have still had to contend with Djokodal afterwards, not Thiem and Medvedev.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I agree with much of this but which still doesn't square up with Fed losing to Berdych or Tsonga. See, 2010-11 was not a lull in the way 2015-16 was for Nadal or 2017 for Novak. The latter two's confidence was shot and they were playing awful those years. Fed wasn't. Fed GOAT-ed at AO 2010. Again at the RG 2011 semi. Won WTF both years. That was the frustrating thing about Fed in those years. He was still very much capable of his best tennis and even produced it often on the biggest stage, but still had those annoying losses. It seems harsh, again, to 'blame' him for that but that's what it comes down to vis a vis Nadal/Djokovic. The losses Fed suffered to Djokovic/Nadal in those years, I don't mind (though I do mind the original iteration of 40-15). But the losses against far lesser players when he was otherwise playing well have hurt his tally. I do agree by the way that Nadalovic haven't had younger ATGs challenge them the way Fed has had with, well, Nadal and Djokovic. But they have also not gone on a walkabout when playing well the way he often did in 2010-11. Even when they do, they are focused enough to find a way back into the match and win.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Again, for Djokodal, those lulls came through a loss of confidence. For Fed, it seemed to be overconfidence or complacency, which is why it stung.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
But why would Djokovic lose confidence.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Fed was ill/injured in 2010 hence some of his losses in that period. Especially during Wimbledon.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Maybe in trying to cope with tennis elbow without a surgery but Pepe Imaz new age theories.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Which injuries? Don't recall, but Fed has a track record of revealing the injury much later.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
That one reveled after the Berdych match.
Q. You beat him almost every time you played him. Was he any different?
ROGER FEDERER: Like I said, I think he was a bit more consistent than in the past. I lost to him in Miami this year, where it was a really tight match as well.
But from my end, obviously, you know, I'm unhappy with the way I'm playing. I couldn't play the way I wanted to play. You know, I am struggling with a little bit of a back and a leg issue. That just doesn't quite allow me to play the way I would like to play.
So it's frustrating, to say the least. Looking forward to some rest anyway.
Q. How do those physical things affect you the most?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, when you're hurting, it's just a combination of many things. You know, you just don't feel as comfortable. You can't concentrate on each and every point because you do feel the pain sometimes. And, uhm, yeah, then you tend to play differently than the way you want to play.
Under the circumstances I think I played a decent match, you know. But I've been feeling bad for the last two, three matches now. It's just not good and healthy to play under these kind of conditions, you know.
So if there's anything good about this it's I'm gonna get some rest, that's for sure.
Q. Some of these big, flat hitters seem to be having an effect on you. Do you need to alter your game to adjust to that?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, if I'm healthy I can handle those guys, you know. Obviously it's a pity that Del Potro is not around, because I think he would have a run at world No. 1 or a run at another Grand Slam. It's unfortunate for him.
But, you know, he's been playing well, and these guys do play very well. I played these guys 10 times. They're not going to reinvent themselves in a year, you know.
But I'm definitely struggling at the moment. That's a bit disappointing.
Q. When did you first start feeling the problems?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, the leg came in the finals of Halle. That kind of never really quite got away from me. Came back a little bit after the first-round match, and then went away again and just kept creeping back sometimes during the matches.
The back's been feeling stiff the last five days, six days really badly. Also in the finals of Halle. It's just something that's been lingering on the grass. It's normal that the back tends to get stiff, you know, in the grass court season because you have to, uhm, go for many more lower shots.
I've had that for many years. I think many players have it. But it's not just not nice when it doesn't go away and you can't play freely. That's what I was missing today.
But from my end, obviously, you know, I'm unhappy with the way I'm playing. I couldn't play the way I wanted to play. You know, I am struggling with a little bit of a back and a leg issue. That just doesn't quite allow me to play the way I would like to play.
So it's frustrating, to say the least. Looking forward to some rest anyway.
Q. How do those physical things affect you the most?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, when you're hurting, it's just a combination of many things. You know, you just don't feel as comfortable. You can't concentrate on each and every point because you do feel the pain sometimes. And, uhm, yeah, then you tend to play differently than the way you want to play.
Under the circumstances I think I played a decent match, you know. But I've been feeling bad for the last two, three matches now. It's just not good and healthy to play under these kind of conditions, you know.
So if there's anything good about this it's I'm gonna get some rest, that's for sure.
Q. Some of these big, flat hitters seem to be having an effect on you. Do you need to alter your game to adjust to that?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, if I'm healthy I can handle those guys, you know. Obviously it's a pity that Del Potro is not around, because I think he would have a run at world No. 1 or a run at another Grand Slam. It's unfortunate for him.
But, you know, he's been playing well, and these guys do play very well. I played these guys 10 times. They're not going to reinvent themselves in a year, you know.
But I'm definitely struggling at the moment. That's a bit disappointing.
Q. When did you first start feeling the problems?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, the leg came in the finals of Halle. That kind of never really quite got away from me. Came back a little bit after the first-round match, and then went away again and just kept creeping back sometimes during the matches.
The back's been feeling stiff the last five days, six days really badly. Also in the finals of Halle. It's just something that's been lingering on the grass. It's normal that the back tends to get stiff, you know, in the grass court season because you have to, uhm, go for many more lower shots.
I've had that for many years. I think many players have it. But it's not just not nice when it doesn't go away and you can't play freely. That's what I was missing today.
ASAP Sports Transcripts - Tennis - 2010 - WIMBLEDON - June 30 - Roger Federer
ASAPSports FastScripts, a system using state-of-the-art technology created to produce verbatim FastScripts of press conferences and player/team interviews at sporting events around the globe.
www.asapsports.com
Lung infection sidelines world number one Federer - CNN.com
World number one Roger Federer is suffering from a lung infection and has pulled out of this week's $2 million ATP tournament in Dubai.
edition.cnn.com
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Ah, didn't know of these, thanks.That one reveled after the Berdych match.
Q. You beat him almost every time you played him. Was he any different?And his post-AO lung infection halted his momentumROGER FEDERER: Like I said, I think he was a bit more consistent than in the past. I lost to him in Miami this year, where it was a really tight match as well.
But from my end, obviously, you know, I'm unhappy with the way I'm playing. I couldn't play the way I wanted to play. You know, I am struggling with a little bit of a back and a leg issue. That just doesn't quite allow me to play the way I would like to play.
So it's frustrating, to say the least. Looking forward to some rest anyway.
Q. How do those physical things affect you the most?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, when you're hurting, it's just a combination of many things. You know, you just don't feel as comfortable. You can't concentrate on each and every point because you do feel the pain sometimes. And, uhm, yeah, then you tend to play differently than the way you want to play.
Under the circumstances I think I played a decent match, you know. But I've been feeling bad for the last two, three matches now. It's just not good and healthy to play under these kind of conditions, you know.
So if there's anything good about this it's I'm gonna get some rest, that's for sure.
Q. Some of these big, flat hitters seem to be having an effect on you. Do you need to alter your game to adjust to that?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, if I'm healthy I can handle those guys, you know. Obviously it's a pity that Del Potro is not around, because I think he would have a run at world No. 1 or a run at another Grand Slam. It's unfortunate for him.
But, you know, he's been playing well, and these guys do play very well. I played these guys 10 times. They're not going to reinvent themselves in a year, you know.
But I'm definitely struggling at the moment. That's a bit disappointing.
Q. When did you first start feeling the problems?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, the leg came in the finals of Halle. That kind of never really quite got away from me. Came back a little bit after the first-round match, and then went away again and just kept creeping back sometimes during the matches.
The back's been feeling stiff the last five days, six days really badly. Also in the finals of Halle. It's just something that's been lingering on the grass. It's normal that the back tends to get stiff, you know, in the grass court season because you have to, uhm, go for many more lower shots.
I've had that for many years. I think many players have it. But it's not just not nice when it doesn't go away and you can't play freely. That's what I was missing today.
ASAP Sports Transcripts - Tennis - 2010 - WIMBLEDON - June 30 - Roger Federer
ASAPSports FastScripts, a system using state-of-the-art technology created to produce verbatim FastScripts of press conferences and player/team interviews at sporting events around the globe.www.asapsports.com
Lung infection sidelines world number one Federer - CNN.com
World number one Roger Federer is suffering from a lung infection and has pulled out of this week's $2 million ATP tournament in Dubai.
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
The only recent slam where he didn’t beat Fedal was 2018 USO.
skaj
Legend
I wouldn't say that's a talent, it has more to do with your character and therefore your upbringing or personal development.
zagor
Bionic Poster
He did have that lung infection in 2010 but regardless of that he was a mess physically in 2010 Wimbledon, had a thigh injury and was on the ropes against Falla in the 1st round. Was in no shape to duke it out with Nadal at Wimbledon again.
I can see 2011 Wimbledon as a missed opportunity, Jo was treeing with his serve but Fed was annoyingly passive in that match, he certainly could have put more pressure. Rest of the slams was Novak in superlative form in 2011 AO and having to beat two ATGs in their athletic peaks back-to-back at 2011 FO and 2011 USO, that was always gonna be a longshot. Of coursed he'd have to do that at Wimbledon as well if he had gotten past Novak but grass is grass.
2012 USO can be argued to be a missed shot as well but Berdman a was tough cookie for Fed in those days, dating back to 2009 AO actually where he was up 2-0 against Fed int he 4th round (IIRC).
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Not by any stretch of the imagination in a world where Laver above all others and McEnroe (John) existed.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Such a shame for the Tsonga loss. If there is any slam where Fed can beat Djokodal back to back, it's Wimb. 2011 Fed was still significantly better than 2014 and 2015 Fed. A shame for that choke.
beast of mallorca
G.O.A.T.
You obviously did not get the point. Did Rafa not stopped Djokovic from winning more French Opens ? Does he have a channce to do that at the
USO ? Did Djokovic not stopped Rafa from winning more AOs ? Wimbledon? If both meet again, does Rafa have a chance ?
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