Is Federer's forehand difficult to emulate?

Curious

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I have been watching lots of his forehand videos lately after seeing my terrible looking forehand in videos, so much arming, jammed up swing just across the body with very poor extension. It particularly caught my attention how Federer swings the arm totally in sync with his torso/shoulder rotation having the wrist loose only. I used to think in the past that legs push, torso rotates and the arm and racket are dragged along hence power comes from the ground/big muscles etc. Completely wrong! He keeps the wrist loose and swings and rotates the torso and the arm as a single unit, arm definitely doesn't lag behind!!
The good thing about my swings in this video is that I can use it while hitting with live ball.

I think this is pretty much what he is doing. ( Maybe the loop is a little smaller but that's just a small detail )


 
I think it might just appear as if it's a single unit. In reality the arm is also lagging, but it's imperceptible from video. It appears as a unit because the loose arm gets locked from visible lag behind the upper body by ESR.
 
FedIsBoat said:
I think it might just appear as if it's a single unit. In reality the arm is also lagging, but it's imperceptible from video. It appears as a unit because the loose arm gets locked from visible lag behind the upper body by ESR.
Click to expand...
Yeah I thought so too for years although @ByeByePoly smartly pointed out a few times that that’s not what’s happening !

Show me a single shot here where his arm lags behind his torso/shoulders.
Interestingly enough I can show you many where his arm is in front of his torso.

 
Why bother wasting time trying to emulate Federer when your time could be better spent developing the revolutionary future gen 1” all arm and wrist fh technique.

imagine the thousands of hours of video you can shoot in your house demonstrating this new way of hitting a devastatingly powerful groundstroke!
 
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Curious said:
Yeah I thought so too for years although @ByeByePoly smartly pointed out a few times that that’s not what’s happening !

Show me a single shot here where his arm lags behind his torso/shoulders.
Interestingly enough I can show you many where his arm is in front of his torso.

Click to expand...
My point was that ESR is the expression of lagging. If his arm and body go as a unit, then why is the arm in ESR during the forward swing? The arm rotating back via ESR = lag.
 
FedIsBoat said:
My point was that ESR is the expression of lagging. If his arm and body go as a unit, then why is the arm in ESR during the forward swing? The arm rotating back via ESR = lag.
Click to expand...
I think it’s the inertia of the racket to force the arm to rotate externally and the wrist to extend(bend back) and also the forearm to supinate (rotate clockwise). All of these happen because of the forward swing and inertia of the racket.
 
Curious said:
I think it’s the inertia of the racket to force the arm to rotate externally and the wrist to extend(bend back) and also the forearm to supinate (rotate clockwise). All of these happen because of the forward swing and inertia of the racket.
Click to expand...

Yes and what supplies that inertia to the racquet? Body moving first!

If the arm was moving with the body, wouldn't need to rotate back like that. Arm is completely loose and because of the structure of the arm at the shoulder joint, that looseness is translated into ESR as the body moves ahead of the arm, but it's imperceptible as macro lag on video.
 
Curious said:
Body and the arm together :)
Click to expand...

Well you're actively propelling the body with muscles. And if you say body and arm are together, then you're also using force to hold the arm in line with the body. In this case the arm would not be loose and would not produce ESR.
 
I think his grip makes the forehand difficult to emulate. It's a semi-western style motion with an Easternish grip. I don't think most people can flex their wrist the way he can.
 
FedIsBoat said:
Well you're actively propelling the body with muscles. And if you say body and arm are together, then you're also using force to hold the arm in line with the body. In this case the arm would not be loose and would not produce ESR.
Click to expand...
Anyway, do you think my motion is fundamentally the same as his?
 
I would say the focus of Federer's forehand is not his primary arm, nor shoulder, nor footwork. As he demonstrated that he can hit rally without even doing anything that a normal coach would tell anyone to, like unit turn, take back, tap the dog. I would say finding the right way to optimize that wrist loose is key.
 
pencilcheck said:
I would say the focus of Federer's forehand is not his primary arm, nor shoulder, nor footwork. As he demonstrated that he can hit rally without even doing anything that a normal coach would tell anyone to, like unit turn, take back, tap the dog. I would say finding the right way to optimize that wrist loose is key.
Click to expand...
Heavy racket helps!
 
The take back and everything up to PTD looks identical. The forward motion bit seems to have the racquet face opening up too soon, with less forward drive.....
 
I think I supinate a little too much during the forward swing. Probably because I’ve been using semi western grip for a long time with which you tend to lead more with the heel pad of the hand ie in a more supinated position.
 
Try delaying full supination - letting the racquet pull your arm back as you go into the forward swing - that should improve the synchronization..

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Mate from 20 years of martial arts I can guarantee u there will be a lag. Power comes from the ground, is directed by the hips and manifested through the hands. That's how tai chi retrains u to move.
 
Curious said:
Between SW and Eastern.
Click to expand...
Looking at your video again, I can see that your legs and hips aren't coming through the swing. Your upper body is rotating, but your lower body stays more or less in its original position. That would account for part of the contact point being behind where it should be.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
 
ubercat said:
Mate from 20 years of martial arts I can guarantee u there will be a lag. Power comes from the ground, is directed by the hips and manifested through the hands. That's how tai chi retrains u to move.
Click to expand...
Mate, IMO the only two things that lag are the hand and the racket.
 
saiclone said:
Looking at your video again, I can see that your legs and hips aren't coming through the swing. Your upper body is rotating, but your lower body stays more or less in its original position. That would account for part of the contact point being behind where it should be.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
But the arm is attached to the shoulder not to the hip or the legs! 8-B
 
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Wow, your forehand's a nice one to watch. I think you have much of the Federer motion down, and I'm sure those tree leaves deserved a beating.

I'm not super qualified, so anything after this point is more or less hypothetical!

I think you can come even closer to the Federer forehand if you:
1. Pronate a bit more on the takeback
2. Accelerate the racquet more along its long axis on the takeback (which would result in that "dragging the racquet" motion that's so special about the Federer forehand).

But that's not super relevant since your mechanics are pretty great as is.

Anyway, you were actually right about how the power starts with the larger muscle groups from the ground up, but it happens a lot faster than that - so much that the arm will look like it's in sync with the torso. With Federer, it may look like his arm swings in sync with his torso, but you'll notice at the end of his backswing, the legs do a hard twitch before his arm starts moving forward at all. This gives a hint as to how inhumanly quick the kinetic chain happens - almost instantaneously.

Anyway, the reason why he hits with his arm in front (any good forehand, really) is because each part of the kinetic chain stops rotating once it has transferred its energy to the next part of the chain, subsequently coming to the end of its range of motion - you'll see that after Federer has finished unwinding his hips as far as flexibility allows and his hips are finally still, his shoulders keep rotating. And after his shoulders stop rotating, his arm finishes across his body. It's like a multistage rocket, with each part gradually contributing to racquet acceleration. Pretty fascinating stuff!

A note: The lag doesn't occur from his shoulder to his arm. It's a lag in muscle tension. People seem to be thinking that the arm physically lags behind the torso and for sure, that doesn't happen unless you've got abnormal horizontal shoulder abduction flexibility.
 
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Of course you can move other ways it's just not the peak efficiency. And we are talking about the lord high Federer.

It's the principle behind the tai chi push. I m 110 kg. I ve been propelled 3 metres through the air by a 5 foot nothing skinny Malaysian Chinese sifu. And I have a suspicion he was going easy on me.

your form looks great it's going to be a fantastic shot which is all that matters

Back in the muck of rec tennis it wouldn't matter lag or one unit. we would never have the foot work or timing to control the maximum power generated by either. One unit is easier to time so start with that.
 
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ubercat said:
One unit is easier to time so start with that.
Click to expand...
Yes, the whole kinetic chain in proper sequence confuses me at this stage, especially the hip drive part. I think I can do the leg drive relatively easily. I’m happy to drive mostly with the shoulder/torso at the moment. I feel like another very crucial element that clicked nicely last night is the realisation that he uniquely throws his hand at the ball and the racket just catches up. That I found very critical In swinging forward/ extending enough. That fixed my across the body swing instantly.
 
ionlyplaysquash said:
2. Accelerate the racquet more along its long axis on the takeback (which would result in that "dragging the racquet" motion that's so special about the Federer forehand).
Click to expand...
I didn’t really understand this part.
ionlyplaysquash said:
People seem to be thinking that the arm physically lags behind the torso and for sure, that doesn't happen unless you've got abnormal horizontal shoulder abduction flexibility.
Click to expand...
Yeah, a little misconception there.
 
Curious said:
I have been watching lots of his forehand videos lately after seeing my terrible looking forehand in videos, so much arming, jammed up swing just across the body with very poor extension. It particularly caught my attention how Federer swings the arm totally in sync with his torso/shoulder rotation having the wrist loose only. I used to think in the past that legs push, torso rotates and the arm and racket are dragged along hence power comes from the ground/big muscles etc. Completely wrong! He keeps the wrist loose and swings and rotates the torso and the arm as a single unit, arm definitely doesn't lag behind!!
The good thing about my swings in this video is that I can use it while hitting with live ball.

I think this is pretty much what he is doing. ( Maybe the loop is a little smaller but that's just a small detail )


Click to expand...
You contract your chest muscles from the very beginning and lack the “drag” phase completely. Fed has a very brief “drag” phase in that video, it’s common to him to have it that way for warmup hitting. The difference would be when you go for more power. Fed would go with more pronounced drag
Rolex+Paris+Masters+Day+Six+7dx6e9-fxpMx.jpg

AthleticBelatedCopepod-small.gif


while your swing would require more chest tension to keep up with increased force, which would hamper consistency and repeatability, and finally (if you went with max load and uncoil) would limit power delivery, or break down under impact of those forces.
 
Dragy said:
You contract your chest muscles from the very beginning and lack the “drag” phase completely. Fed has a very brief “drag” phase in that video, it’s common to him to have it that way for warmup hitting. The difference would be when you go for more power. Fed would go with more pronounced drag
Rolex+Paris+Masters+Day+Six+7dx6e9-fxpMx.jpg

AthleticBelatedCopepod-small.gif


while your swing would require more chest tension to keep up with increased force, which would hamper consistency and repeatability, and finally (if you went with max load and uncoil) would limit power delivery, or break down under impact of those forces.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that one should be strong enough to hit Federer forehand or I’m not doing it the right way and if so where’s the issue in your view?
I’m swinging the arm simultaneously with the torso rotation, getting the racket lag, obviously I’m not expected to be as explosive as Federer to create the same amount of racket drag. No?
 
Curious said:
Are you saying that one should be strong enough to hit Federer forehand or I’m not doing it the right way and if so where’s the issue in your view?
I’m swinging the arm simultaneously with the torso rotation, getting the racket lag, obviously I’m not expected to be as explosive as Federer to create the same amount of racket drag. No?
Click to expand...
You are expected to get your arm into ESR while lining up the shot and before major acceleration, go through arm “drag” phase and pass the momentum via arm “release” as torso rotation slows down chest facing the net. If you want to hit gently with low level of power, you can swing as you demonstrate in that video. But there’s no sense, Federer forehand style is adopted to deliver significant power to rapidly accelerate hefty racquet with compact and short-in-time preparation. You don’t need one to hit against weak slow balls. You don’t need one to hit gentle balls. You need it to hit hard and spinny against challenging balls, take them on the rise to keep your ground, hit them running side-to side and deliver back a strong shot.
 
Dragy said:
You are expected to get your arm into ESR while lining up the shot and before major acceleration, go through arm “drag” phase and pass the momentum via arm “release” as torso rotation slows down chest facing the net. If you want to hit gently with low level of power, you can swing as you demonstrate in that video. But there’s no sense, Federer forehand style is adopted to deliver significant power to rapidly accelerate hefty racquet with compact and short-in-time preparation. You don’t need one to hit against weak slow balls. You don’t need one to hit gentle balls. You need it to hit hard and spinny against challenging balls, take them on the rise to keep your ground, hit them running side-to side and deliver back a strong shot.
Click to expand...
If that was true shouldn’t most pro players be hitting like him? There’s a huge diversity in terms of compactness and ‘lagginess’ of their forehands.
 
Curious said:
If that was true shouldn’t most pro players be hitting like him? There’s a huge diversity in terms of compactness and ‘lagginess’ of their forehands.
Click to expand...
All top pros hit key checkpoints. Not all are as smooth. Not all play so many on-the-rise shots. Some are claycourters used to having more time to set up big cuts, and utilizing bigger backswings for easier lining up. Also contact height matters.
Is Roger actually that compact?
vJV26dV_d.jpg

Nadal is more compact. Fognini uses very direct takeback. Roger warmup videos trick people to much.
 
denoted said:
I think his grip makes the forehand difficult to emulate. It's a semi-western style motion with an Easternish grip. I don't think most people can flex their wrist the way he can.
Click to expand...

I feel like a lot of people would destroy their wrists trying it out. I don’t know how Fed those it, especially with such a heavy racquet.


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