Curious
G.O.A.T.
Glad to hear that! But I feel like it’s a combination of pronation and ISR.
Is Federer's forehand difficult to emulate?
- Thread starter Curious
- Start date
And how did the Dustin Brown serve-motion work-out for you? Did you serve any better than normal? Or worse? Why don't you take a few lessons from a real professional, it will cost but you will get great tips. And none of them will be to copy any random professional player 
.
I did take a few "lessons" 4-5 years ago when I played with a former ATP ranked player (ranked as "high" as 1500 https://www.atptour.com/en/players/vigneshwaran-ramesh/rd23/overview) and he gave my great tips, and playing with him was great workout, lots of high intensity drills, one was that he was at the net volleying on one half of the court. His objective was just to put the wolley back to me, my objective was to hit past him but only on the halfcourt side he was standing on...Impossible more or less. Match play was a big joke, his kick-ish serve was "difficult", and he managed to reach each and every single shot I made, and then made a winner .
.I did take a few "lessons" 4-5 years ago when I played with a former ATP ranked player (ranked as "high" as 1500 https://www.atptour.com/en/players/vigneshwaran-ramesh/rd23/overview) and he gave my great tips, and playing with him was great workout, lots of high intensity drills, one was that he was at the net volleying on one half of the court. His objective was just to put the wolley back to me, my objective was to hit past him but only on the halfcourt side he was standing on...Impossible more or less
. Match play was a big joke, his kick-ish serve was "difficult", and he managed to reach each and every single shot I made, and then made a winner .
Curious
G.O.A.T.
That bowing motion works great for some people, not for me though.
Hitting with a pro, you’re lucky to have an experience like that.
The highest level I played with would be around 5.0. Even that is quite something.
Bagel Boy
Rookie
@Curious
I'm watching this right now. At 5: 30..there's a slow motion shot I thought you may like. I think the trouble with watching some of the slow motion stuff is that it's hard to understand the player's shot intent. Something that the announcer points out.
Also, about the bowing...try not to think of the hip "sliding forward into the court". If you raise your tossing hand high enough, (reach for the sky) you'll feel the bow and movement they are referring to, it's slight and not as exaggerated as it seems.
I'm watching this right now. At 5: 30..there's a slow motion shot I thought you may like. I think the trouble with watching some of the slow motion stuff is that it's hard to understand the player's shot intent. Something that the announcer points out.
Also, about the bowing...try not to think of the hip "sliding forward into the court". If you raise your tossing hand high enough, (reach for the sky) you'll feel the bow and movement they are referring to, it's slight and not as exaggerated as it seems.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
A thing of beauty.
That’s very true. The main idea is to have a good shoulder tilt.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I’m rotating the shoulder, swinging the arm simultaneously. You got stuck there. Forget that for a moment. Does it look the same fundamentally?
Nope you are not rotating your hips at all and leave your back foot behind, basically you are doing way less then even Roger is doing.
On top of it, you don't drop the racquet head under the ball.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Which ball, mate?!
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
@Curious I'm also a bit obsessed with emulation because they are top pros for a reason, what people said is the best might not be the best for us, but at least we can borrow from the top pros to understand what is the essense and how to truly make a top groundstrokes.
I would think I am really comfortable with Fed's general strokes and his idea behind his strokes now, I am happy with the results that I have gotten so far.
So yea keep going you will find one that suits your gameplay style eventually
I would think I am really comfortable with Fed's general strokes and his idea behind his strokes now, I am happy with the results that I have gotten so far.
So yea keep going you will find one that suits your gameplay style eventually
Yes it was great to hit with a pro-ish player, but expensive too so I only played 4-5 hours (court-fee + fee to him of course, but still cheaper then hiring a personal trainer for 1 hour, paid around 450 SEK for an hour with him, approx 45$). My father is the lucky one, he is a member of a tennis-club in Växjö Sweden, and for some reason which I do not know, he got a present from the club, 1 hour of hitting with Stefan Edberg .
Anyway, when it comes to emulate I believe we all try to pick up tips from the pros. But copy? NO! I also look at the pros like "Look at Wawrinkas forehand, his grip is really western when he hits those big ones", or "I need to swing through more like XXX". Tips are great, trying to copy is a bad idea. Take the best feature from each player and make your own forehand a real killer.
. Anyway, when it comes to emulate I believe we all try to pick up tips from the pros. But copy? NO! I also look at the pros like "Look at Wawrinkas forehand, his grip is really western when he hits those big ones", or "I need to swing through more like XXX". Tips are great, trying to copy is a bad idea. Take the best feature from each player and make your own forehand a real killer
.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I think today was the biggest breakthrough in my tennis as I really understood how Federer hits his forehand!!
As a result I was able to hit with Eastern grip and a lot of topspin. I should have taken the role of ISR and pronation into contact more seriously and much earlier. That’s Federer’s main trick.
As a result I was able to hit with Eastern grip and a lot of topspin. I should have taken the role of ISR and pronation into contact more seriously and much earlier. That’s Federer’s main trick.
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
I am interested to see a video of you actually hitting a live ball.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Absolutely. Should be able to take a video on the weekend.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Welcome to the ttw fray ...
I agree, Fed is indeed Goat ... is that the same as boat.
First ... a point of clarification ... I now state that as "the hand travels with the shoulder line in ATP FHs". I make that distinction now because in the course of video review, some bent arm FHs will have the elbow ahead of the shoulder line in the forward swing. The constant across straight arm FHs and bent arm FHs was the hand travels with the shoulder line. The reason for these previous discussions was the false assumption many of us had here when we heard the term "lag". We thought "arm lag", not "racquet lag" ... and certainly not ESR/ISR arm rolling lag. The SSC is not my thing ... brother @Dragy loves him some SSC .... at age 61 SSC becomes STSC (stretch tear shortening cycle).
My old thread on shoulder/arm/hand moving in sync ( https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lbow-hand-move-in-sync-prove-me-wrong.587454/ )
I actually don't agree with the implication it takes effort and tension to keep the arm in line with the body ... in fact I think it is it's natural state/position:
I'm aware of advanced techniques of ESR shoulder/arm locking for forward swing ... but put that to the side for a second. Let's talk about an average adult rec FH with no ESR locking:
The upper arm is attached to the shoulder joint ... it comes along with the shoulder/torso rotation forward for free ... no choice. I don't hit a ESR locking FH ... and I don't consciously make the upper arm come with the shoulder line, and I don't consciously make my hand travel with shoulder line rotation. I actually think it would take conscious effort to make it do something else. If I turn my shoulders back in the unit turn, than my upper arm and hand come with the uncoiling.
I also think the "tension" thing is a bit of a fictional narrative. If our arm was tension-less during a FH swing, our arm and hand and racquet would be hanging down beside our body. We maintain arm/hand structure/location with effort. Very relaxed effort ... don't notice it because it's muscle memory, but it's not all gravity free. Fed doesn't get down to pat the dog without some arm/hand muscle effort. My take is just keep the arm relaxed ... no death grip ... and proper timing of 1) shoulder/torso rotation ... followed by 2) arm added effort going into contact .... leads to smooth easy power.
Hip/torso/shoulder/arm rotation:
On a semi open FH unit turn with hips turned max past feet, and shoulders turned max past hips ... the torso/shoulders will come immediately with hip turn. It has to ... that is what max means ... no hip -> shoulder lag left to let hips go first and leave shoulders in place. That doesn't mean you couldn't turn shoulders less than max past the hips ... which would allow initial hip turn with shoulders left in place soon to follow. Or .. no shoulder turn at all ... and introduce shoulder turn in forward swing (One of our great past posters SinjinCooper said that is how advanced players often hit their neutral weight tranfer FHs ... introduce shoulder turn in the step forward).
There you go @Curious ... you sneaky guy .... sucked me in.
You know @Dragy is about to go all SSC on us now.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
The core motion is the same and it’s nothing more than a table tennis topspin forehand. As someone who’s played table tennis for ages I should have thought about this much sooner.Which Fed FH or you trying to mirror? He hits 100 different ones.
All pronation and ISR right into contact, in other words, windshield wiper motion forwards not right to left. That’s all about it.
That’s how the genius GOAT can hit with Eastern grip and still put tremendous amount of top spin on the ball probably laughing at the rest of the world who try all sorts of wonky looking extreme grips to create spin!
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Plus Federer!We are the only two that "get it" ... video review savants.
5263
G.O.A.T.
I'd say you are spoiling the racket face in the area of the contact zone
Curious
G.O.A.T.
That’s correct. For some reason I open the racket face up somewhere in the middle of the forward swing. I literally spent hours to understand and try to fix this issue, including the use of instant feedback from slow motion videos. It drives me crazy. The forearm just wants to supinate no matter how hard I try to prevent it. Is it the weight of the racket/me trying to lift it up too early/racket head being level or above my hand instead of being lower than hand( more inertia of racket pulling it down rather than back) that’s forcing the supination, I don’t know.
Federer’s racket stays slightly closed to vertical all throughout the swing. How come his forearm is not forced to supinate despite his explosive swing?!
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5263
G.O.A.T.
I think it has to do with you being to "allowing" and even encouraging a bit of the snap, from the 'lag & snap' concept (which I believe is a crock btw) JY has written about it and so have I ....how you should restrict the wrist from snapping out ...and while it can be allowed out some (more or less) for different kinds of shots, there is always a type of restriction instead of letting or pushing the racket head out. The Rh should be trying to come forward due to the swing shape, but how much should be metered by you. I think in this way you can avoid the racket face changing so much thru the contact zone where it should be largely quite stable.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
To be honest it is still really hard to do full eastern when hitting against a top player who do a lot of top spin because your contact point will be very high (above waist) and ISR would be harder to time
so I still need to figure out how tohit against those type of balls consistently which is common on the field
so I still need to figure out how tohit against those type of balls consistently which is common on the field
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
Like this?
I’m actually not all about SSC here, at least not like in serving motion. There clearly are some in ESR-ISR flip. But key stuff for me would be big muscle engagement to power torso rotation (and some body lift), strong shoulder linkage to efficiently transfer big power produced, and timing to sequence all that rotation => centrifugal arm propelling => slow down at torso facing forward => racquet “release” with active/SSC ISR.
Now for lock vs muscles in chest area: if a player is hitting with med effort and with long swing, not trying to put all the drive he can produce with his legs and core against a fast ball with little time to prepare and execute, it’s perfectly ok to use that pec-involved structure. Seen both in rec and lower-RHS pro shots. Do it as long as it keeps up with the duty.
I think consistency comes if you keep your swing path unchanged regardless height of the ball. You only take the ball at a different point on the swing path. High balls you take closer to the end of the swing path , so you have to start your swing earlier. ( off topic , sorry everyone )
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Lag and snap has to happen in a way unless you have the racket tip pointing back fence even further behind you at the start of the forward swing aka WTA forehand.
It's ok to have a hobby to emulate different pro forehands, but not ok for someone to say it's a waste of time? If you make your hobby public info, others will voice their opinion, like it or not. For some, both are a waste of time - emulating and commenting on it.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Like this?
I’m actually not all about SSC here, at least not like in serving motion. There clearly are some in ESR-ISR flip. But key stuff for me would be big muscle engagement to power torso rotation (and some body lift), strong shoulder linkage to efficiently transfer big power produced, and timing to sequence all that rotation => centrifugal arm propelling => slow down at torso facing forward => racquet “release” with active/SSC ISR.
Now for lock vs muscles in chest area: if a player is hitting with med effort and with long swing, not trying to put all the drive he can produce with his legs and core against a fast ball with little time to prepare and execute, it’s perfectly ok to use that pec-involved structure. Seen both in rec and lower-RHS pro shots. Do it as long as it keeps up with the duty.
No SSC boy
... not like that. They "put" their arms there with some spacing from their legs. But if that observation doesn't blow your skirt up ... think of the act of raising arm and hand from there to hit topspin. That is indeed some magic monkey drum arm/hand/rope muscle-less pixie dust to get that arm to rise without a wee bit of muscle, and dare I say tension.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Where the ball should be, presuming that you'd strike it at the right height. Anyhow you probably get my point, that your racquet head doesn't drop bellow your hand.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Dragy
G.O.A.T.
That’s exactly where I wanted you to go. There’s no way they get their arms up that fast with pure shoulder muscle effort. Of course there is muscle effort, but also a great degree of centrifugal force. I won’t claim any exact ratio, but it works magically:
- one lifts arms and racquet with muscle effort, relatively slowly, in advance;
- one splits arms, completes the high takeback with hitting arm and starts the drop;
- one guides the drop, obviously with muscle effort, yet rather minor;
- one initiates torso rotation without tensing up the arm; big force comes into play, centrifugal force provides arm staying straight and getting propelled away from axis (and therefore lifted);
Now here’s the fun. If you inject low power into shot production, you cannot swing like Rafa, from hip to shoulder high contact and over the head into finish. All-arm lift would be too weak, or worse, at max shoulder muscle effort, inconsistent and injury (overuse) prone.
However, with less leg power effort you can hit more straight. You might need more arm effort to initially set the arm farther apart and behind the ball to then swing more level into a chest height ball. Possibly more effort to guide the swing with less help of centrifugal force - less balanced optimum effortless stuff, more arming.
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acintya
Legend
you cant teach something that demands a lot of feel. either you understand the basics of physics and you get that natural wrist/racquet lag or you are just a robot trying to copy something that isnt meant for copying / and you break apart the whole swing which is not meant to be broken apart.
develop your own natural stroke. i dont even know why there is so much fuzz about his forehand - its extremely compact/basic/natural.
develop your own natural stroke. i dont even know why there is so much fuzz about his forehand - its extremely compact/basic/natural.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
About the feel, what I do at times, is to ask my friends to do a FH shadow swing without a racquet, to see if their hand lags?
And more often then not, they can't do that, b/c basically they can't relax the arm.
acintya
Legend
yeah,this is how i was hitting when i didnt had a clue about tennis.
its all about relaxation and letting gravity doing the work. this is extremely difficult to explain to somebody who doesnt know about what exactly you are talking about
e x t r e m e l y
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
“but also a great degree of centrifugal force”
DUH!!! That lever from left shoulder to right hand
Will read rest of your post soon .. breakfast with my mommy
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
What is a "hand lag"? Hand bent back? Extension?
I think most skilled golfers, tennis players, pitchers, quarterbacks learn the following:
1) tension kills ... arms and hands/grip
2) don't add much arm effort at start of forward swing/rotation
3) add arm effort closer to contact jumping on existing momentum
Said another way ... when I compare my rec friends strokes what interests me most is the guys that hit good pace with effortlessly looking swings. In my age group, that has hardly ever meant "racquet lag". If we could measure McEnroe 's and Connors "arm/hand/grip" tension, I bet it was off the chart relaxed. I think the big mistake most rec players make is "arm muscling too early" right at the start of the forward swing/rotation. These are the players that look like they are swinging hard but their pace is no harder than the smoother strokes. It only takes a little torso/shoulder rotation to hit smooth shots ... just enough to catch a ride on some rotation momentum prior to arm effort. If you want to be able to generate your own significant pace ... than yeah ... for most of us that would mean big hip and torso/shoulder rotation.
Sorry for another golf example ... but I think it makes my point. For the golfers ... have you ever hit a drive 20+ yards further than your consistent drive yardage? Same swing, even felt like you swung easier... as far as I know not any more center of the club. I have ... and it wasn't a change in arm tension or grip pressure. I have always played golf and tennis with light grip pressure. My theory ... it's the timing of "arm effort" at precisely the right time (and obviously in golf the unc..o..c..king of the hands/wrist).
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Palm lags (like the rh) if the arm is relaxed.
Bollettieri told me(on tennis.com) years ago "no tension in your arm nor in your grip". And about early prep.
5263
G.O.A.T.
Imo not really...I guess you can call it that although it would be a poor name. The racket lags in the slots, drags towards contact, uses the hand's change of direction to position (not snap) to address the ball, then pulls up and across in a relatively stable manner (as to opening or closing of the face)
5263
G.O.A.T.
but do remember, the amount of lag will vary based on several factors.....mainly flexibility in the forearm.
5263
G.O.A.T.
I don't agree with the SSC part and think that misleads too many down the lag and "snap" mistake. For true SSC the response time is very limited and much less than what we see with the lag into the slot to the "allowing" the hand to reposition.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
It’s like I’m swinging my hand(not the racket) to the ball. A very fine detail though, I’m swinging the part of the hand that connects with the wrist(you know the meaty part of the thumb side) and quite naturally the racket flings back if my grip is loose enough. Simple as that. Why is this “flinging back” of the racket so rare in rec players? That’s only because the loose grip is also very rare! By the way I believe pulling the racket forward is a complete myth. Federer swings his hand forward so fast that with his very loose grip and wrist the racket ‘looks like’ being pulled, dragged forward.
BounceHitBounceHit
Legend
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
A stretch-shortening cycle (SSC) is an active stretch (eccentric contraction) of a muscle followed by an immediate shortening (concentric contraction) of that same muscle(wiki)
soundofatrain
Rookie
Agreed, could you upload a video on the court hitting balls..?
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Guys, I have one more question, to those who aren't sick of it yet.
I wanted to mention this before some folks jump to the keyboard after seeing my live ball hitting video tomorrow and start typing : hahaha your racket take back is not with closed racket face unlike Federer.
This is an important question, please watch till the end.
I wanted to mention this before some folks jump to the keyboard after seeing my live ball hitting video tomorrow and start typing : hahaha your racket take back is not with closed racket face unlike Federer.
This is an important question, please watch till the end.
You won't loose anything in your game if you prepare with the "neutral" palm position.Asking me I suppose
video coming tomorrow anyway. Just be patient
When you make live ball drills focus on your right elbow. It should be much higher during take back.
On the video above your right elbow constantly disappears behind the body ( sometimes even the handle of the racket hides behind the body ).
While from this camera angle the elbow should be always visible. The harder you want to hit, the higher elbow goes up away from the body.
The palm remains neutral, but the racket head will be changing angle.
There is a video on Youtube with Federer practice shot from different angles. ( search "federer multicam" ). Watch where his right elbow on the fh.
( it is not specific to him you can watch any pro player)
here, from 6:30
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Guys, I have one more question, to those who aren't sick of it yet.
I wanted to mention this before some folks jump to the keyboard after seeing my live ball hitting video tomorrow and start typing : hahaha your racket take back is not with closed racket face unlike Federer.
This is an important question, please watch till the end.
I think you have to much glare to watch that TV in that awesome sunroom.
Didn't all of this get covered in the Limpin flip academy in a previous lifetime? Don't make me post Bill Murray Groundhog movie clips.
From my Limpin flip academy memory ... with BBP paraphrasing added in for free:
- no arm roll ... ain't no flip even if you lag big
- racquet face direction or grip doesn't define flip ... arm roll does
- to be a real flip ... and not a girly man flip ... must, in this order:
1) isr or pronate or both (varies per pro and grip)
2) esr or supinate or both
3) isr or pronate or both
BBP protest during the academy:
- well, it appears Del Potro has a girly man flip because he only does 2 and 3 ... hard to make the case a rec player with the girly man flip needs to hide in shame.
So isn't your "neutral" question really "to flip or not to flip ... that is the question".
From a selfish standpoint wanting/needing to see Curious sunroom shadow swing videos ... I say stick to the 100% Fed FH replication holy grail quest.
If you are trying to arrive at 60 the best 60 year old player you can be ... more neutral and more matches and more cones and more cowbell.
