Is Federer's forehand difficult to emulate?

[Sir Weed]

It's a weird static, isolated tennis world you seem to experience. Plenty of shadow strokes and no other individual that creates situations for you to find answers for. Your tennis world lacks of creativity and play. Your analysis lacks of a more general approach.

IMHO.

Enjoy your journey.

 

[Fintft]

I second this:

When you make live ball drills focus on your right elbow. It should be much higher during take back.

 

[RajS]

@Curious : I was told that closing the face causes the racket head to drop more and thus produce more spin. There is a subtle difference in the racket head path that may give it a different feel (closer to the body, more in front, etc.). But in the end, whatever feels easier/simpler is probably the best way...

 

[Dragy]

Guys, I have one more question, to those who aren't sick of it yet.
I wanted to mention this before some folks jump to the keyboard after seeing my live ball hitting video tomorrow and start typing : hahaha your racket take back is not with closed racket face unlike Federer.
This is an important question, please watch till the end.

I find the main issue with this your demonstration is no-loop, "sliding" the backswing into the lag. This makes you reverse the rachquet movement instead of more smooth redirection with flip. Which makes this part of swing jerky, unstable and inflexible in terms of timing.
Your arm and racquet is supposed to be dropping as you start forward swing and flip happens into lag, or slot position. The farther you get it back (compare Verdasco to Rafa), the more pronounced drop you need:

If you supinate as you swing back (without Rafa-like compenating), you get your racquet even farther back. It's ok if your loop backswing overwhelms:

Actually, we highlighted that thing with your last move before flip being directed back, that you don't flip from dropping arm down, in your other videos posted before. Seems you didn't try to solve it.

 

[ubercat]

+1 dragy

By no means have this nailed but when it does work it works this way on a STD FH TS drive.

as I loop and drop the racket down I can feel my weight going backwards and you feel it loading quite strongly on the right hip.

That is the top half of the vertical circle.

Then the right hip rolls under and up as you straighten the front leg. That is the bottom half of the circle.

So the hips start moving fwd as the momentum of the upper body is moving back. With a relaxed arm that will produce the lag and flip.

When I do this I get a powerful shot without thinking about my arm at all. Sadly accuracy is a different matter.

 

[StringSnapper]

I would say the focus of Federer's forehand is not his primary arm, nor shoulder, nor footwork. As he demonstrated that he can hit rally without even doing anything that a normal coach would tell anyone to, like unit turn, take back, tap the dog. I would say finding the right way to optimize that wrist loose is key.

Ya I think loose wrist is key, but maybe more than this is the idea of hitting up on the ball and pushing it forward.

Recently (this year) I've finally got the hang of the lasso forehand. I use it similarly to fed, just when stretched / on the run/ the ball is really low. It's a really loose shot that depends on a lot of core rotation, since it's usually hit open stance and from a compromised body position. Placement is key, and you usually have a lot of spin to work with.

Anyway, hitting up on a fast ball hitting a lasso forehand can generate enormous power. The key for me is to focus on hitting it on the rise and hitting the top of the ball and "rolling" it forward on your strings.

Imo this is how Fed hits all sorts of shots and his wrist seems so flexible: he doesnt think of it! He's thinking of other things! It's like someone saying dont think of elephants, then all you can think of is elephants


Some more thoughts: feds fh seems so dynamic because of its variety. If you want to RIP a flat penetrating shot, it depends more on if the ball is over the net and if you can make contact above the net when the ball is still rising. You'll still be brushing up (I prefer ththe term "rolling the ball forward" on your strings) at contact, but not as much, you'll be hitting more square on for a flat ball. But anyway, this ball will be more of a spanked laser beam and your finish will be across the body most likely.

 

[StringSnapper]

I’m rotating the shoulder, swinging the arm simultaneously. You got stuck there. Forget that for a moment. Does it look the same fundamentally?

I think this is fine if you're struggling with pace. It sounds compact like a serve return, but not the best shot if your opponent hits no pace to you because you lose fluidity and looseness to rip the ball if its slow

 

[StringSnapper]

I actually have been tinkering with Fed ground strokes and movement and I really liked it because it suits my style of play. I came from table tennis and badminton background and Fed way of hitting reminds of those.

Fed is not known for its powerful ground strokes but freedom of shot making and volley and half volley.

Therefore I would say as long as you can use ground strokes to set up your next moves then that would be a success in my opinion

I've been playing both lately lol. Imo the lasso forehand in tennis is super similar to the table tennis fh

 

[StringSnapper]

The core motion is the same and it’s nothing more than a table tennis topspin forehand. As someone who’s played table tennis for ages I should have thought about this much sooner.
All pronation and ISR right into contact, in other words, windshield wiper motion forwards not right to left. That’s all about it.
That’s how the genius GOAT can hit with Eastern grip and still put tremendous amount of top spin on the ball probably laughing at the rest of the world who try all sorts of wonky looking extreme grips to create spin!

Hmm I feel like table tennis fh is forward, but I'd describe it more up and forwards, like a lasso forehand. A drive tennis fh is more forwards (and through, I guess)

 

[StringSnapper]

Like this?

I’m actually not all about SSC here, at least not like in serving motion. There clearly are some in ESR-ISR flip. But key stuff for me would be big muscle engagement to power torso rotation (and some body lift), strong shoulder linkage to efficiently transfer big power produced, and timing to sequence all that rotation => centrifugal arm propelling => slow down at torso facing forward => racquet “release” with active/SSC ISR.

Now for lock vs muscles in chest area: if a player is hitting with med effort and with long swing, not trying to put all the drive he can produce with his legs and core against a fast ball with little time to prepare and execute, it’s perfectly ok to use that pec-involved structure. Seen both in rec and lower-RHS pro shots. Do it as long as it keeps up with the duty.

It looks like that image is for a certain type of ball, I.e. one that is low

 

[dawwe]

This thread is nothing without a video showing the forehand in real play, were time is taken away from you and you don't have one hour to prepare the shot. I have no idea how my forehand looks compared to anyone else's, all I know is that I can hit a decent forehand, and that I have at least 4-5 different swing-paths depending on how (bad most likely) I'm positioned and/or how late/early I hit the ball. And YES, I have also looked how some pros hit (Wawrinka the most), but I'm just visualizing his forehand and then visualizing my own looking similar. I do not try to copy or do "shadow swing practicing", visualizing is what works for me. And my forehand looks nothing like Wawrinkas, in any respect. You have so much to think about when trying to copy Federer that your forehand will most likely be not natural for you. You should have picked just ONE of many details in Federers forehand and focus on that, and my suggestion would have been focus on relaxing your arm as much as you can. As it looks now almost every muscle in your arm will be under tension in order to try to emulate Federer.

 

[Curious]

This thread is nothing without a video showing the forehand in real play, were time is taken away from you and you don't have one hour to prepare the shot. I have no idea how my forehand looks compared to anyone else's, all I know is that I can hit a decent forehand, and that I have at least 4-5 different swing-paths depending on how (bad most likely) I'm positioned and/or how late/early I hit the ball. And YES, I have also looked how some pros hit (Wawrinka the most), but I'm just visualizing his forehand and then visualizing my own looking similar. I do not try to copy or do "shadow swing practicing", visualizing is what works for me. And my forehand looks nothing like Wawrinkas, in any respect. You have so much to think about when trying to copy Federer that your forehand will most likely be not natural for you. You should have picked just ONE of many details in Federers forehand and focus on that, and my suggestion would have been focus on relaxing your arm as much as you can. As it looks now almost every muscle in your arm will be under tension in order to try to emulate Federer.

On the court at the moment. Camera recording, don’t worry.

 

[Curious]

Here it is, guys. In 1080p 240fps so you can see every detail of what I'm doing.
Two things I'm happy about:
Hitting out in front/extension is usually there.
I'm not taking the racket behind my back as I did before.

Unfortunately I'm still not dropping the racket low enough in a relaxed way if I don't focus on that.
I hit so many balls high in the fence if I don't do the ISR and pronation into contact with this grip ( By the way I thought it was completely Eastern but looks a little close to SW in the video ).

 

[ptuanminh]

good hit. but looks like you are golfing though. one shot and rest. should you be getting ready for incoming ball after the hit?

 

[Curious]

good hit. but looks like you are golfing though. one shot and rest. should you be getting ready for incoming ball after the hit?

Easy pace, just trying a new stroke.

 

[Dragy]

Here it is, guys. In 1080p 240fps so you can see every detail of what I'm doing.
Two things I'm happy about:
Hitting out in front/extension is usually there.
I'm not taking the racket behind my back as I did before.

Unfortunately I'm still not dropping the racket low enough in a relaxed way if I don't focus on that.
I hit so many balls high in the fence if I don't do the ISR and pronation into contact with this grip ( By the way I thought it was completely Eastern but looks a little close to SW in the video ).

Swings look good. Racquet angle contact can be adjusted by more pronounced ISR. Once you get it down, with such a swingpath, you’ll get good spin and shape on those shots. Keep it up!

 

[Curious]

Swings look good. Racquet angle contact can be adjusted by more pronounced ISR. Once you get it down, with such a swingpath, you’ll get good spin and shape on those shots. Keep it up!

Yes, lack of ISR ( and pronation IMO ) results in ball flying to the fence. I have realised today if your torso is not sideways during the forward swing, it's very difficult to do the ISR and also swing forward at the same time. This is very hard to explain actually.

 

[dawwe]

Actually to be honest, it looks good. Keep it up! In my opinion you need to relax your arm a lot more and then "the drop" will come naturally, together with a faster more "whippy" swing, that would be my focus point, everything else will then fall in place in a way that suits you. Looks to be summer where you live !

 

[Dragy]

It looks like that image is for a certain type of ball, I.e. one that is super low

Cmon man, nothing "super", just a lowish ball they want to shape with topspin:

You either get it, try it, use it, or you ignore it and swing with rigid posture.
All that changes for higher balls is they get arm propelled up and out with centrigugal force at earlier point of the drop. The key is not having arm "dangling" straight down in the shot, lol. It's all about having arm carried and straightened with swing forces from rotation, not dominantly with shoulder and arm muscles.

 

[Curious]

Actually to be honest, it looks good. Keep it up! In my opinion you need to relax your arm a lot more and then "the drop" will come naturally, together with a faster more "whippy" swing, that would be my focus point, everything else will then fall in place in a way that suits you. Looks to be summer where you live !

I noticed that, too. But I get a weird feeling that I will lose control if I relax my arm too much. Also timely drop of the racket is not that easy.
Yes, it’s severely summer here in Melbourne!
37 degrees today, 43 tomorrow

 

[dawwe]

You don't need to control the racket head/face that much if you hit with enough swing-speed. I'm hardly trying to control the face/head when I hit my forehand (but yes there are exceptions), I try to use swing-speed (and swingpath) as my control mechanism, and with that said I have a hard time hitting soft-ish topspin forehands during warm-up inside the serve-lines, more or less only way I can hit a topspin FH then is to "force it".

 

[Curious]

You don't need to control the racket head/face that much if you hit with enough swing-speed. I'm hardly trying to control the face/head when I hit my forehand (but yes there are exceptions), I try to use swing-speed (and swingpath) as my control mechanism, and with that said I have a hard time hitting soft-ish topspin forehands during warm-up inside the serve-lines, more or less only way I can hit a topspin FH then is to "force it".

I see what you mean. That’s exactly what I feel on the serve, I’m not worried about control when I swing fast but at this stage I can’t say the same for forehand.
Probably because toss and timing are under my control on the serve. Too many other variables on forehand.

 

[StringSnapper]

Cmon man, nothing "super", just a lowish ball they want to shape with topspin:

You either get it, try it, use it, or you ignore it and swing with rigid posture.
All that changes for higher balls is they get arm propelled up and out with centrigugal force at earlier point of the drop. The key is not having arm "dangling" straight down in the shot, lol. It's all about having arm carried and straightened with swing forces from rotation, not dominantly with shoulder and arm muscles.

I didnt say anything super about it, just said a specific type. And ya it will need more of a whippish low to high movement etc

 

[Dragy]

I didnt say anything super about it, just said a specific type. And ya it will need more of a whippish low to high movement etc

Really?

one that is super low

 

[Nostradamus]

Yeah I thought so too for years although @ByeByePoly smartly pointed out a few times that that’s not what’s happening !

Show me a single shot here where his arm lags behind his torso/shoulders.
Interestingly enough I can show you many where his arm is in front of his torso.

you have to have eastern grip to hit this forehand. if you have semiwestern, it won't work

 

[StringSnapper]

Really?

You're editing my quotes now?!

 

[Curious]

you have to have eastern grip to hit this forehand. if you have semiwestern, it won't work

I actually thought about that today. But I thought it could be used with semi western grip, too. Why do you think it won’t work?

 

[Dragy]

You're editing my quotes now?!

Bad joke.

 

[Nostradamus]

I actually thought about that today. But I thought it could be used with semi western grip, too. Why do you think it won’t work?

yea I suppose you are right. but with Semi western grip,, this Tremendous power that this motion creastes really tears apart your wrist and shoulder

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Here it is, guys. In 1080p 240fps so you can see every detail of what I'm doing.
Two things I'm happy about:
Hitting out in front/extension is usually there.
I'm not taking the racket behind my back as I did before.

Unfortunately I'm still not dropping the racket low enough in a relaxed way if I don't focus on that.
I hit so many balls high in the fence if I don't do the ISR and pronation into contact with this grip ( By the way I thought it was completely Eastern but looks a little close to SW in the video ).

The hand mechanics itself look pretty ok but this stance is not very conducive for the Fed forehand (or the modern topspin forehand in general). You get too side on and your feet get parallel to each other. Ideally you want them to make an angle so you get a wider radius to swing through. This way your right foot will pivot around as you swing from outside the line of the ball into it. You'd then also need an earlier point of contact than what you're hitting at the moment. Your contact point isn't really out in front of you. Also, don't drop off the non hitting arm so soon. Let it stay up; it will aid your rotation into the ball.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Here it is, guys. In 1080p 240fps so you can see every detail of what I'm doing.
Two things I'm happy about:
Hitting out in front/extension is usually there.
I'm not taking the racket behind my back as I did before.

Unfortunately I'm still not dropping the racket low enough in a relaxed way if I don't focus on that.
I hit so many balls high in the fence if I don't do the ISR and pronation into contact with this grip ( By the way I thought it was completely Eastern but looks a little close to SW in the video ).

Actually looks good ... smooth... even my 84 year old mother ex-player and current critic gave you a reluctant thumbs up.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Cmon man, nothing "super", just a lowish ball they want to shape with topspin:

You either get it, try it, use it, or you ignore it and swing with rigid posture.
All that changes for higher balls is they get arm propelled up and out with centrigugal force at earlier point of the drop. The key is not having arm "dangling" straight down in the shot, lol. It's all about having arm carried and straightened with swing forces from rotation, not dominantly with shoulder and arm muscles.

"It's all about having arm carried and straightened with swing forces from rotation, not dominantly with shoulder and arm muscles."

Sort of ... I do not think Fed's arm gets straightened from rotation. I think he straightens it himself going to pat the dog, and then I think he uses "enough" muscles to maintain that structure (hand in line with shoulders) at the start of the forward swing. The arm/hand is catching a ride on the torso/shoulder rotation ... but with the arm/hand/racquet structure of his choosing.

Edit:

The hand travels at the path of our choosing ... not at the path of centrigugal force's choosing ... otherwise Fed, Joker and Kyrgios have discovered 3 different centrigugal forces. I still have no idea what force Sock is experiencing.

 

[ptuanminh]

Easy pace, just trying a new stroke.

It doesn't really matter what stroke you are using. Things like getting ready for incoming shots are the fundamentals. you should always do them, practice or compete.

 

[Curious]

Nice and simple explanation of forehand fundamentals.

 

[Dragy]

Nice and simple explanation of forehand fundamentals.

I like Stef forehand videos nowadays, because he’s not a perfect smoothyman, yet he demonstrates very observable elements. With his rather big backswing and arguably flattish shots, it’s remarkable how his swing goes through low and close to hip before rising to contact.