Is football and basketball really the reason why american tennis suffers?

D

dominikk1985

Legend
People always talk about american tennis declining because the athletes choose other sports (they always say that when americans don't win- for example in boxing where it might be more true because boxers and football players are both big unlike most tennis players).

however I'm not sure about that. soccer in europe is probably as popular as football and basketball combined in the USA.

also I think that soccer recruits more potential tennis stars than football and basketball does (as evidenced by many very good soccer playing tennis players like nadal, stich, federer and many others) because:

the tennis stars are all 5"10-6"3 160-190 lbs white suburban kids which is way to small to play NBA or NFL while that is ideal height and weight for soccer.

so why are some of the most dominant soccer countries like spain and france developing more tennis players than the US despite losing way more potential talent to soccer than the americans losing to football and basketball?
 
lowest economic barrier to entry. Soccer, Baseketball and Football at a local park requires 1 ball and 1 playing area for roughly 10 players or more. Tennis requires racquets, strings, balls for 2-4 players in the same area. Golf is even worse. The lower the barrier to entry the higher player pool you get giving you a higher percentage of potential top athletes.
 
Tennis is not a commercial sport. It's like fine art, if you want a lot of practitioners you need public investment. The private investment needed for success is wasted capital.
 
The primary financial incentive for tennis in this country is a free ride in COLLEGE, not in life. Most of the quasi-fanatic tennis parents I've met see a full scholarship as the main goal, no small thing with college running in the hundreds of thousands of dollars now. Most are not thinking about their kids making it on the tour. Most seem to realize that the odds of success as a touring pro are prohibitive.
 
what i don't quite understand is why white american suburban kids prefer to play baseball, rather than tennis? surely tennis is more action packed and fun?
 
There is definitely some truth to this. Consider that in the world, tennis is the 4th most popular sport. Yet in the US it isn't even top 10. Logically, in other countries more kids choose tennis whereas in US it is not one of the top options.

And yes, while soccer (football) is extremely popular in Europe, Tennis is still one of the top options after that so plenty of kids still pick that up as a sport. In the US, american football, basketball, baseball, etc, are all ahead of Tennis.
 
American kids tend to prefer team sports to individual sports. Individual sports tend to be really difficult, especially mentally, and less social.
 
FrontHeadlock said:
American kids tend to prefer team sports to individual sports. Individual sports tend to be really difficult, especially mentally, and less social.
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i can see that, yet, america is probably the most individualistic of societies! this is a true paradox you know. i would have thought that tennis is so perfectly suited to american culture, given the complete individualistic nature of the sport. (yes yes i know there are coaches etc. but that isn't the point. tennis is definitely way more individualistic than say baseball?!)
 
The percentage of athletic kids who pick tennis in Europe, while small compared to those who pick soccer, still dwarfs the percentage in the US where other than the two sports you mentioned, hockey, baseball, track and field, and golf all probably rank ahead of tennis. As a result we get clowns like Harrison and Sock as our top prospects who are so untalented compared to a Nadal or a Murray that they will still be losing to them when Nadal and Murray are in their 30's and they are in their primes.
 
President said:
The percentage of athletic kids who pick tennis in Europe, while small compared to those who pick soccer, still dwarfs the percentage in the US where other than the two sports you mentioned, hockey, baseball, track and field, and golf all probably rank ahead of tennis. As a result we get clowns like Harrison and Sock as our top prospects who are so untalented compared to a Nadal or a Murray that they will still be losing to them when Nadal and Murray are in their 30's and they are in their primes.
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This, exactly
 
ollinger said:
The primary financial incentive for tennis in this country is a free ride in COLLEGE, not in life. Most of the quasi-fanatic tennis parents I've met see a full scholarship as the main goal, no small thing with college running in the hundreds of thousands of dollars now. Most are not thinking about their kids making it on the tour. Most seem to realize that the odds of success as a touring pro are prohibitive.
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Good post, agree almost completely.
 
I hear the same thing a lot but these people are really missing the point.

Do you think Nadal would have been able to do well playing other sports such as soccer, football, etc? Given how good an athlete he is, a reasonable person might agree. However, would many of the top football and soccer players have been play tennis like Nadal, had they chose tennis? I highly doubt it.

Tennis is a skill sport and as such it requires different sets of talent, high quality coaching/competition, enormous individualized support structure, and so on. In addition, you have to be mentally strong and smart. Just ask yourself why other arguably more athletic and powerful players like Tsonga isn't #1 in tennis, where as Djokovic, Murray and others who may not be as good an athlete do better?

The reason why the American kids are not doing well are many folds. IMO, the main reason for this is because of lack of quality coaching and the commitment level on the part of kids and parents. Having more better athletes play tennis would help but that is not the main problem here.

Federer was taught his technique 15-20 years ago. Where can you go here in the US to learn that technique today? Where have major game-changing innovations in technique, training methods, equipment (Luxilon, Babolat PD, etc.) come from? That's where the answer lies.
 
It's always interesting to hear non-Americans comment on what is or isn't wrong with tennis (or anything else for that matter) in this country. To me, it doesn't have anything to do with the sheer number of sports and recreational pursuits that kids have at their disposal or the fact that many of the top athletes end up playing sports like football or basketball. I lay the blame with the USTA and a lack of world-view coaching. It's clear what kind of foundation is necessary to produce a world-class tennis champion, and the USTA (despite the gazillions in dollars) just isn't getting it done-especially on the men's side. IMO, the USTA is doing to need to bring in someone with a proven track record from another country to build things from scratch-kind of like Klinsman with the U.S. national soccer team.
 
Devilito said:
lowest economic barrier to entry. Soccer, Baseketball and Football at a local park requires 1 ball and 1 playing area for roughly 10 players or more. Tennis requires racquets, strings, balls for 2-4 players in the same area. Golf is even worse. The lower the barrier to entry the higher player pool you get giving you a higher percentage of potential top athletes.
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not to mention the cost of coaching. granted some of the best were coached by their parents: tiger,jimmy connors, venus and serena. but most are taught to believe they need expensive lessons.
 
TERRASTAR18 said:
not to mention the cost of coaching. granted some of the best were coached by their parents: tiger,jimmy connors, venus and serena. but most are taught to believe they need expensive lessons.
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agreed for soccer and basketball. but the overall cost for football and hockey definitely is on par with tennis, if not more.
 
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SystemicAnomaly said:
Consider that the top 600 players in baseball in the US are all making a salary that is more than a half million dollars. I do not believe that they are paying for their own coaching or for all of their travel and lodging expenses either. Compare this to tennis players that are outside of the top 200 in the world.

http://data.newsday.com/long-island/data/baseball/mlb-salaries-2013/?currentRecord=601
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not mention it's a system of progression in team sports- little league, then h.s ball, then college/minor leagues, then the pros. and all the time like you said it's subsidized. meanwhile in individual sports, you are like a independent contractor hoping to get earn enough to pay for coaches and accomodations for future tournaments.
 
objectivity said:
agreed for soccer and basketball. but the overall cost for football and hockey definitely is on par to tennis, if not more.
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but in football and hockey you don't necessarily pay out of pocket. the ppl who play hockey for the most part play in areas where their is a infrastructure inb place like canada, or northern states of the us.
 
TERRASTAR18 said:
not mention it's a system of progression in team sports- little league, then h.s ball, then college/minor leagues, then the pros. and all the time like you said it's subsidized. meanwhile in individual sports, you are like a independent contractor hoping to get earn enough to pay for coaches and accomodations for future tournaments.
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but america is such an individualistic society! shouldn't that encourage children to play more individualistic sports? and tennis is THE definitive individualistic sport!
 
objectivity said:
i can see that, yet, america is probably the most individualistic of societies! this is a true paradox you know. i would have thought that tennis is so perfectly suited to american culture, given the complete individualistic nature of the sport. (yes yes i know there are coaches etc. but that isn't the point. tennis is definitely way more individualistic than say baseball?!)
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individual doesn't necessarily mean alone. it just means standing out and it's easier to stand out and show off in a group setting as opposeed to a quiet tennis court with you and your coach.
 
Much ado about nothing, IMO. These things go in cycles. Tennis today is not appreciably less popular than it was 20 years ago. Maybe a little bit, but not appreciably so. There is plenty of fine coaching in the US and plenty of talent. Just keep in mind how difficult it is to become a STAR in any sport. We will have more stars in the coming years, it's just a matter of time.
 
TERRASTAR18 said:
individual doesn't necessarily mean alone. it just means standing out and it's easier to stand out and show off in a group setting as opposeed to a quiet tennis court with you and your coach.
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but team sports also require group-play. and things like sacrifice. is that why americans just can't play soccer?
 
objectivity said:
but team sports also require group-play. and things like sacrifice. is that why americans just can't play soccer?
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I think Americans aren't good at soccer because it's just not that popular. For instance, my highschool didn't have a soccer team, but we did have golf, football, basketball, tennis, softball/baseball. This isn't all uncommon. Now soccer is currently gaining traction, a lot of kid's leagues are starting to sprout up and I guess we will see if that lends to our national team being better. It's just hard for a sport like tennis to compete with basketball and football, at least from my perspective. When I was in highschool the best athletes played basketball and football and maybe baseball. And they did this year around. Our basketball team would play summer leagues like AAU when it wasn't the actual season. Our football team would be in the weightroom and doing camps during the summer. Not much time or incentive to play something like tennis. In my area that aren't any tennis leagues for kids (or even adults for that matter) so there's really no way to get involved in the sport, unless you just go get a racquet, find a court and a friend and teach yourself. Me and my father did a tennis camp for like 7-13 years olds for a couple of summers, and we just got less and less kids that it didn't make sense to do it anymore...kids didn't want to play tennis.
 
mptennis said:
I think Americans aren't good at soccer because it's just not that popular.
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I think that pretty much sums it up. Kids play up through high school, but I think the enthusiasm dies out significantly during middle school. There just isn't the same fervor about the sport as there is in pretty much every other part of the planet. Kids just don't get excited about it the way they do about football, basketball, etc.
 
mptennis said:
I think Americans aren't good at soccer because it's just not that popular. For instance, my highschool didn't have a soccer team, but we did have golf, football, basketball, tennis, softball/baseball. This isn't all uncommon. Now soccer is currently gaining traction, a lot of kid's leagues are starting to sprout up and I guess we will see if that lends to our national team being better. It's just hard for a sport like tennis to compete with basketball and football, at least from my perspective. When I was in highschool the best athletes played basketball and football and maybe baseball. And they did this year around. Our basketball team would play summer leagues like AAU when it wasn't the actual season. Our football team would be in the weightroom and doing camps during the summer. Not much time or incentive to play something like tennis. In my area that aren't any tennis leagues for kids (or even adults for that matter) so there's really no way to get involved in the sport, unless you just go get a racquet, find a court and a friend and teach yourself. Me and my father did a tennis camp for like 7-13 years olds for a couple of summers, and we just got less and less kids that it didn't make sense to do it anymore...kids didn't want to play tennis.
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thanks for sharing. so why aren't kids interested in tennis in your opinion? doesn't tennis perfectly suit americans' inclination towards individual achievements and entrepreneurship?
 
objectivity said:
thanks for sharing. so why aren't kids interested in tennis in your opinion? doesn't tennis perfectly suit americans' inclination towards individual achievements and entrepreneurship?
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First of all, I think there is a healthy interest in the sport in the US, but there are two issues:

1) barriers to entry are a lot higher than other sports. Equipment, lessons, clinics, etc. are all much, much more expensive compared to, say, basketball, where all you really need is a ball which you can get for $20 at Walmart.

2) it just so happens that these other sports receive a lot more media coverage than tennis. Turn on ESPN on any given day in the US and it's full of basketball, football, baseball, etc. coverage. Rarely is there tennis coverage. These other sports occupy much more mindshare than tennis.
 
I'm going to say because it is not marketed well. Tennis feels like more of a you know someone is in it.

Where as the other major sports here in the US are everywhere. go to ESPN.com and its all baseball, basketball, football.

Monday Night Football and the Superbowl is huge!

It is going to take a recognizable highly marketable player from the US that will make the sport more appealing for the youth. (look at Tiger and golf, even before the incident his name was everywhere in skits, songs etc. Nike endorsement.)

If the US had a male tennis player that had a background from say like...Pittsburg, one of the burroughs of NY, LA, San Francisco...or some blue collar city that was flashy like an NBA player (Think Kevin Durant flashy) and sponsored by Nike or even better the first Jordan Brand Tennis athlete and had a swagger to him. Not an air of confidence, but a swagger of hunger determination(Kobe Bryant like. ) I guarantee Tennis could reach higher levels in the United States.
 
SCSI said:
I hear the same thing a lot but these people are really missing the point.

Do you think Nadal would have been able to do well playing other sports such as soccer, football, etc? Given how good an athlete he is, a reasonable person might agree. However, would many of the top football and soccer players have been play tennis like Nadal, had they chose tennis? I highly doubt it.

Tennis is a skill sport and as such it requires different sets of talent, high quality coaching/competition, enormous individualized support structure, and so on. In addition, you have to be mentally strong and smart. Just ask yourself why other arguably more athletic and powerful players like Tsonga isn't #1 in tennis, where as Djokovic, Murray and others who may not be as good an athlete do better?

The reason why the American kids are not doing well are many folds. IMO, the main reason for this is because of lack of quality coaching and the commitment level on the part of kids and parents. Having more better athletes play tennis would help but that is not the main problem here.

Federer was taught his technique 15-20 years ago. Where can you go here in the US to learn that technique today? Where have major game-changing innovations in technique, training methods, equipment (Luxilon, Babolat PD, etc.) come from? That's where the answer lies.
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This is a very underrated comment.

People like to say so-and-so could be successful at any given sport because they're athletic, which isn't always true. As an example, I can't tell you how many kids I saw with great athletic abilities not reach their potential in a sport like wrestling, because it's so demanding mentally, and can be very isolating. Not every kid can wake up on his own every morning and drill takedowns for hours, while also having to be on weight all the time. Success in individual sports doesn't always translate to similar success in team sports and vice versa.
 
Bartelby said:
Tennis is not a commercial sport. It's like fine art, if you want a lot of practitioners you need public investment. The private investment needed for success is wasted capital.
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Bingo.

This sport is absolutely ridiculous in terms of investment/payout.

I was reading that Halep's parents spent thousands of dollars on her per year when she was a kid learning the ropes of tennis and once she got into the junior stage of her career that figure rose to tens of thousands(with travel fees, coach fees, physical trainer etc.).

And based on recent interviews following Simona's success this year, only NOW have they started to see some of the initial investment coming back money-wise. Consider that Simona is 21 years old and has broken the top 20.

She started tennis at 4 years old so you do the math money wise. She is a success story but what about the people in tennis hanging around the 200-300 spot or worse? They are barely breaking even. You just don't get that in any other major sport. Heck, in my relatively poor country, in our mostly mediocre football(soccer) league, an average footballer makes tens of thousands of euros per month and he gets payed regardless of performance(heck, he can even stay benched most of the time).

I love this sport but I don't know if I would want my kid picking pro tennis player as a profession. If he's already got the money to go into this career(which doesn't really pay out unless you are really really good) then he could venture into other areas(not necessarily sports wise) that would pay A LOT better. I read an article with a Romanian tennis coach who said that, if at 15 or so, your parents can't guarantee a couple of thousand euros per year to get you to tourneys and such, then you might as well forget about tennis as a career.
 
objectivity said:
agreed for soccer and basketball. but the overall cost for football and hockey definitely is on par with tennis, if not more.
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Well speaking as a person who actually played Tennis, Basketball, and Football in High school, I can definitively say that tennis was a MUCH more expensive sport.
 
While tennis may/may not be down in the USA, I can truly say that it's picking up in Canada, especially this year. I don't know if it's just because of Raonic, but I have never seen public courts this busy, they used to be empty just last year.
 
CoachSubway said:
First of all, I think there is a healthy interest in the sport in the US, but there are two issues:

1) barriers to entry are a lot higher than other sports. Equipment, lessons, clinics, etc. are all much, much more expensive compared to, say, basketball, where all you really need is a ball which you can get for $20 at Walmart.

2) it just so happens that these other sports receive a lot more media coverage than tennis. Turn on ESPN on any given day in the US and it's full of basketball, football, baseball, etc. coverage. Rarely is there tennis coverage. These other sports occupy much more mindshare than tennis.
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thanks for sharing. i wasn't in the US back in the 70s and 80s, but was support/coverage of tennis much more back then? i am asking because america still produced the likes of agassi and pete.

i just find it really weird why such a collectivist-minded sport like baseball -- where sacrifice for the greater good is such a key feature of the sport -- is favored over tennis? of course there is the fact that baseball is an "american" sport... but for a society that is so opposed to any notion of collective action, i find it tough to explain why baseball can be more "popular" than tennis.
 
Praetorian said:
Well speaking as a person who actually played Tennis, Basketball, and Football in High school, I can definitively say that tennis was a MUCH more expensive sport.
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don't the armor paddings etc cost a tonne too?

is the cost of tennis largely due to coaching? because equipment wise, it really isn't THAT expensive... especially with TW's bargain section, haha.
 
TERRASTAR18 said:
not mention it's a system of progression in team sports- little league, then h.s ball, then college/minor leagues, then the pros. and all the time like you said it's subsidized. meanwhile in individual sports, you are like a independent contractor hoping to get earn enough to pay for coaches and accommodations for future tournaments.
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Excellent points.

SystemicAnomaly said:
Consider that the top 600 players in baseball in the US are all making a salary that is more than a half million dollars. I do not believe that they are paying for their own coaching or for all of their travel and lodging expenses either. Compare this to tennis players that are outside of the top 200 in the world.

http://data.newsday.com/long-island/data/baseball/mlb-salaries-2013/?currentRecord=601
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Also consider that baseball players are earning these huge sums in a season that is about 6 months long (Spring to Fall). The regular season for NBA players consists of 82 games in a season that is about 6 months. OTOH, Pro tennis players (and high-level competitve junior players) are playing 10-12 months out of the year.

Note that athletes in these other sports are receiving guaranteed salaries. Many are also receiving income from endorsements. Tennis players repy on prize money rather than guaranteed salaries. Some are also receiving income from endorsements. If players outside of the top 200 are receiving endorsements, I would suspect that it is not very substantial.

Currently, the ATP pros around #200 have won about $30k in prize money (or less than $40k) this year. The year-to-date earnings of WTA players around #200 have earned about $20k or less in prize money. From this we see that the attraction for earning potential is much greater for other sports in the US than it is for tennis.
 
objectivity said:
thanks for sharing. so why aren't kids interested in tennis in your opinion? doesn't tennis perfectly suit americans' inclination towards individual achievements and entrepreneurship?
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I really don't think that American stereotype really pertains to sports. Obviously I can only speak from my experience, but IMO kids lean towards sports like basketball and football for two reasons. 1. They are pushed towards it & 2. They are more easily accessible.

Let me elaborate.

1. In America, basketball and football is on TV year-round. Football incredibly so. The NFL season ends in February, but then the media is showcasing the NFL Draft, NFL Training camps, college camps, then pre-season stuff, it's literally year-round. Basketball less-so, but still on TV at least 6 months out of the year. You rarely if ever see tennis on ESPN outside of when they are showing tournaments. But football and basketball is always mentioned all day on all the talk shows on there, and I think this pushes a lot of kids to not be aware of tennis.

2. Moreso than media popularity, at least in my area tennis isn't really accessible. To play tennis you need to have the court, racquets, balls and string minimum. To play football you just need the ball and to play basketball you just need the ball and a hoop you can buy for $50. So most kids don't find themselves wanting to play it because no one pushes them towards it. On top of that, tennis is a skill that is much harder to begin than basketball or football. Kids can watch a basketball player shoot a 3 pointer on TV, go outside and even if they have no technically solid fundamentals, they can throw the ball at the home from the same distance and eventually it will go in. Kids can't recreate the tennis they see on TV. They see these guys smashing the ball and think "that looks fun" and then they go out, hit the ball as hard as they can, never get it in, and based on that one experience they say tennis isn't for them. Americans just aren't patient enough to really learn to love tennis.

Also, parents don't push their kids towards it. Parents push their kids toward basketball and football. Put them in leagues at the age of 5, camps every summer, etc. I don't know a single person whose parent introduced them to tennis, let alone encouraged them to play it.
 
the high cost with little chance of ever getting any return thing is true but that applies to europe too. for that reason tennis has always been an upper class sport that wasn't different in macs or connors days.

so why did it work out then and why does it work out in some european countries?

the money and marketing thing is all true but this is nothing unique to the US. even federer while being a huge star is not causing a tennis hysteria in switzerland (skiing and other sports are much more popular there). so why is it worse in the US?
 
dominikk1985 said:
the high cost with little chance of ever getting any return thing is true but that applies to europe too. for that reason tennis has always been an upper class sport that wasn't different in macs or connors days.

so why did it work out then and why does it work out in some european countries?

the money and marketing thing is all true but this is nothing unique to the US. even federer while being a huge star is not causing a tennis hysteria in switzerland (skiing and other sports are much more popular there). so why is it worse in the US?
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Because those other sports in the US are flashier and more popular, and will garner you much more attention from adults and your peers.
 
Basketball, tennis, and football are all very tough sports to become masters at, but I think tennis is the hardest to be good at from the start. There's a reason why so many pro basketball players start late, but why it's very difficult to be a pro tennis player if you don't start super early. Tennis costs more money, it takes more individual work early on (they even out eventually), and it's much more reliant on talent.

That, and the media. You see how ripped Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Tom Brady, Adrian Peterson, etc are in commercials, how celebrated they are during sports events like the superbowl or the Finals at sports bars, how much more football and basketball are played in schools recreationally instead of tennis, etc. Just so much more room for error with trying to get a kid to play tennis as opposed to football or basketball
 
Crose said:
Basketball, tennis, and football are all very tough sports to become masters at, but I think tennis is the hardest to be good at from the start. There's a reason why so many pro basketball players start late, but why it's very difficult to be a pro tennis player if you don't start super early. Tennis costs more money, it takes more individual work early on (they even out eventually), and it's much more reliant on talent.

That, and the media. You see how ripped Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Tom Brady, Adrian Peterson, etc are in commercials, how celebrated they are during sports events like the superbowl or the Finals at sports bars, how much more football and basketball are played in schools recreationally instead of tennis, etc. Just so much more room for error with trying to get a kid to play tennis as opposed to football or basketball
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agreed for all these sports. but how about baseball? why is it more popular than tennis?
 
objectivity said:
agreed for all these sports. but how about baseball? why is it more popular than tennis?
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As someone who really doesn't like baseball, I often ask the same question. But baseball has a heritage in this country. Fathers often encourage their kids to play baseball at least for little league in their young ages. To my knowledge that doesn't happen for tennis.
 
Just a few thoughts from an American:

The mindset toward certain sports is just different in the US. I think that parents tend to put their kids in team sports to socialize them, teach them teamwork, and provide less exposure to their weaknesses. It's amazing how prevalent this is with parents these days. No one wants to see their kids fail or be told by a coach that they just aren't talented enough. If a kid just doesn't have a lot of athletic ability, he or she can ride the bench on a team and still be a part of it.

Regarding the "skill sport" label on tennis, I completely agree. One parallel between tennis and baseball is the pitcher. Prototypical pitchers tend to be 6'-6'5, must possess a tactical mind, and have the game "on their racquet". I suspect that a large number of great baseball pitchers would also be physically and mentally fit for success on the tennis court. We, as a nation, lose TONS of kids who want to play baseball and pitch because it's sort of the best of both worlds... an individualistic role within a team sport. The quarterback in American football is similar for some of the same reasons.

My last observation as a multi-sport athlete who was born and raised in the US is the popular notion that soccer is where the parents put kids who aren't coordinated enough to play baseball or who are too small/weak for football. Soccer just doesn't have the same kind of prestige or early age coaching infrastructure that these other sports have here (neither does tennis, for that matter). I'm not bashing soccer because I know it's far more complex than it looks but, to many parents in the US, a soccer game is just a swarm of kids in two different uniforms chasing after a ball on the ground where they're hoping that their kid ends up kicking the ball into the goal. To them it's just organized chaos. The nuances of tennis and soccer are lost on most people here and they simply have no reason to explore these sports because baseball, football, basketball, and hockey aren't going anywhere.
 
The size of a football field can support 24 players to play single, or even 48 people if double.

The key is lack of support from school, community, and goverment.
 
Readers said:
The size of a football field can support 24 players to play single, or even 48 people if double.

The key is lack of support from school, community, and goverment.
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I think the lack of support is just a symptom of the lack of interest/enthusiasm due to more attractive alternatives for male athletes. There are public tennis courts all over the place here in southern California (unlike many other areas of the US, I'm sure) and people still would rather play baseball, football, or basketball.
 
SoCalJay said:
Just a few thoughts from an American:

The mindset toward certain sports is just different in the US. I think that parents tend to put their kids in team sports to socialize them, teach them teamwork, and provide less exposure to their weaknesses. It's amazing how prevalent this is with parents these days. No one wants to see their kids fail or be told by a coach that they just aren't talented enough. If a kid just doesn't have a lot of athletic ability, he or she can ride the bench on a team and still be a part of it.

Regarding the "skill sport" label on tennis, I completely agree. One parallel between tennis and baseball is the pitcher. Prototypical pitchers tend to be 6'-6'5, must possess a tactical mind, and have the game "on their racquet". I suspect that a large number of great baseball pitchers would also be physically and mentally fit for success on the tennis court. We, as a nation, lose TONS of kids who want to play baseball and pitch because it's sort of the best of both worlds... an individualistic role within a team sport. The quarterback in American football is similar for some of the same reasons.

My last observation as a multi-sport athlete who was born and raised in the US is the popular notion that soccer is where the parents put kids who aren't coordinated enough to play baseball or who are too small/weak for football. Soccer just doesn't have the same kind of prestige or early age coaching infrastructure that these other sports have here (neither does tennis, for that matter). I'm not bashing soccer because I know it's far more complex than it looks but, to many parents in the US, a soccer game is just a swarm of kids in two different uniforms chasing after a ball on the ground where they're hoping that their kid ends up kicking the ball into the goal. To them it's just organized chaos. The nuances of tennis and soccer are lost on most people here and they simply have no reason to explore these sports because baseball, football, basketball, and hockey aren't going anywhere.
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Good post.
 
SoCalJay said:
Just a few thoughts from an American:

The mindset toward certain sports is just different in the US. I think that parents tend to put their kids in team sports to socialize them, teach them teamwork, and provide less exposure to their weaknesses. It's amazing how prevalent this is with parents these days. No one wants to see their kids fail or be told by a coach that they just aren't talented enough. If a kid just doesn't have a lot of athletic ability, he or she can ride the bench on a team and still be a part of it.

Regarding the "skill sport" label on tennis, I completely agree. One parallel between tennis and baseball is the pitcher. Prototypical pitchers tend to be 6'-6'5, must possess a tactical mind, and have the game "on their racquet". I suspect that a large number of great baseball pitchers would also be physically and mentally fit for success on the tennis court. We, as a nation, lose TONS of kids who want to play baseball and pitch because it's sort of the best of both worlds... an individualistic role within a team sport. The quarterback in American football is similar for some of the same reasons.

My last observation as a multi-sport athlete who was born and raised in the US is the popular notion that soccer is where the parents put kids who aren't coordinated enough to play baseball or who are too small/weak for football. Soccer just doesn't have the same kind of prestige or early age coaching infrastructure that these other sports have here (neither does tennis, for that matter). I'm not bashing soccer because I know it's far more complex than it looks but, to many parents in the US, a soccer game is just a swarm of kids in two different uniforms chasing after a ball on the ground where they're hoping that their kid ends up kicking the ball into the goal. To them it's just organized chaos. The nuances of tennis and soccer are lost on most people here and they simply have no reason to explore these sports because baseball, football, basketball, and hockey aren't going anywhere.
Click to expand...

great post. your points are very insightful.
 
objectivity said:
what i don't quite understand is why white american suburban kids prefer to play baseball, rather than tennis? surely tennis is more action packed and fun?
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perhaps they prefer team sports and one that requires more skill than tennis. I doubt many young athletes who agree with your assertion that any individual sport is more "fun" than a team sport...and if they did I'd suspect it's a kid whose parents pushed them into tennis or golf so they wouldn't get hurt playing other sports. Regardless, baseball is passed down from legions of generations of families covering a century+ across all major American ethnicities...white, black, Hispanic, Japanese, pretty much everyone who isn't Chinese, Indian, or from the Middle East. Tennis is passed down typically only from a small segment of white affluent families. Tennis is also unpopular among most minority groups which account for roughly 37% of the country.

Let's also not pretend that in a typical public US high school, tennis isn't looked at as a sport for girls and skinny armed males who couldn't hack it in a more physical sport in the same manner that a typical soccer kid is basically ignored athletically aside from his fellow soccer playing peers. It's not my opinion of the sport but where I grew up (Chicago) that's what it is. If you weren't competent in one of the main four - football, baseball, basketball, or even hockey, you didn't matter athletically speaking. You have the baseball kids who play the hardest sport to succeed at. You have the tall, lean, and natural athletes in basketball, you have the more physically imposing football players, and the hockey kids were the crazy ones because we were always beaten, bruised, and cut up. Then here come the tennis kids with pastel polo shirts and tender elbows. Where are the girls going to gravitate to? Unless they're into tennis, you may as well be assembling the school yearbook.
 
dominikk1985 said:
People always talk about american tennis declining because the athletes choose other sports
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That's a fallacy. Tennis has always been a 2nd or even a 3rd tier sport in the US. And yet, the US still managed to have a decent number of very successful players until recently.

American tennis is in decline because, to put it bluntly, the player development programs suck. They have fallen far behind countries like France and Spain in that regard.

Canada is starting to have success because for the past 7 years, they have essentially tried to copy (on a smaller scale) the French system. This started in 2006, when Tennis Canada hired Louis Borfiga (Director of Coaching - Tennis, at INSEP in France) to be Director of Elite Player Development. And he brought with him Guillaume Marx, a top coach responsible for development of elite juniors there. Borfiga created an entire structure/system introducing: higher standards in coaching, a training center for players 12 and under, sports/study programs for 15+ players, and another program for "transition players" (19-22), etc... And last December, Borfiga got another top French coach to join him at Tennis Canada, Frédéric Fontang, former coach of Jeremy Chardy.

I don't know what the heck the USTA is doing, but you cannot develop elite players without a system and without high standards in coaching. No wonder Landsdorp bashed academies and (poor) coaching...
 
SoCalJay said:
Just a few thoughts from an American:

The mindset toward certain sports is just different in the US. I think that parents tend to put their kids in team sports to socialize them, teach them teamwork, and provide less exposure to their weaknesses. It's amazing how prevalent this is with parents these days. No one wants to see their kids fail or be told by a coach that they just aren't talented enough. If a kid just doesn't have a lot of athletic ability, he or she can ride the bench on a team and still be a part of it.

Regarding the "skill sport" label on tennis, I completely agree. One parallel between tennis and baseball is the pitcher. Prototypical pitchers tend to be 6'-6'5, must possess a tactical mind, and have the game "on their racquet". I suspect that a large number of great baseball pitchers would also be physically and mentally fit for success on the tennis court. We, as a nation, lose TONS of kids who want to play baseball and pitch because it's sort of the best of both worlds... an individualistic role within a team sport. The quarterback in American football is similar for some of the same reasons.

My last observation as a multi-sport athlete who was born and raised in the US is the popular notion that soccer is where the parents put kids who aren't coordinated enough to play baseball or who are too small/weak for football. Soccer just doesn't have the same kind of prestige or early age coaching infrastructure that these other sports have here (neither does tennis, for that matter). I'm not bashing soccer because I know it's far more complex than it looks but, to many parents in the US, a soccer game is just a swarm of kids in two different uniforms chasing after a ball on the ground where they're hoping that their kid ends up kicking the ball into the goal. To them it's just organized chaos. The nuances of tennis and soccer are lost on most people here and they simply have no reason to explore these sports because baseball, football, basketball, and hockey aren't going anywhere.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of this but I don't think it's the nuances that are being lost in soccer or even tennis. Soccer is simply too low scoring and often boring with teams who play defense first styles in the same manner that people here dislike the pusher tennis style. Not to mention how fragmented the pro leagues are. Am I supposed to care about MLS, EPL, or La Liga, Mexican leagues etc. The game's stars are spread across a handful of leagues in various countries. Too many pro leagues to keep up with, and then factor in the time differences in Euro soccer and you have games starting here at 7 AM. It's just never going to fully work. And let's not forget the diving, rolling around on the ground in pain after getting tripped etc. Flip the channel to football or hockey and guys are getting freight trained on a big hit, or Jason Heyward taking a 95 MPH fastball off of his jaw. Everyone can play soccer to a certain level and relate to the flow of the game because we all played it in gym class at school. Very few can relate to getting a bat on a Clayton Kershaw curveball or taking a hit from a guy who is 6'3 and can bench 500 LBs or a guy carrying a bladed stick as a potential weapon with razor blades taped to his feet traveling at 30+ mph looking to cave in your organs on a big open ice hit inside a partially enclosed frozen playing surface. There's a certain factor of watching something the average schlub can't do or has never experienced while watching sports. Sure I can't dribble a ball like Messi, but I can take a pass from Landon Donovan or score a goal on Tim Howard with a few penalty kick opportunities. I can't score a goal on Henrik Lundquist in a shootout, and if you can't ice skate, you're done without an attempt. Even though I was decent enough to play D1 college baseball, I'm not getting a bat on Arodis Chapman's fastball even if I was spotted 12 pitches. You have a guy throwing 100 MPH where 25% of the ball's trajectory is already on you before you even recognize the ball coming out of his hand and another .2 -.3 of a second to determine if you're actually going to swing. A minute segment of the world's population possess that type of hand-eye coordination so the average joe is sitting there thinking...yeah I can't do that. I'll pay money or watch to see if Andrew McCutchen can.

Tennis is even more simple. To anyone under 35 it's simply an old man's game. It's boxing and horse racing. There isn't a video game that matters, and there's no real interactive experience like fantasy tennis to prop it up to the country's youth who might be casual fans and could learn something about the players from the video games or fantasy tennis like they often do with the other sports.
 
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