Is Indian Wells a real-life test of Federer's ability to play on clay ?

Otacon

Hall of Fame
Of all non-clay events, Indian Wells has probably the closest surface to playing conditions on clay.

- Speed : I don't have this year's data, but IW's Court Speed Index for 2017 was 27.4, barely faster than the clay M1000 events (between 20.9 and 24.9).-

- Bounce : "On this surface especially, the ball bounces really high which suits my game." Kohlschreiber.

Of course, the ball travels much faster in the California desert and the movement is different than on red clay, but it's still an indication.

What do you think ?
 

snvplayer

Hall of Fame
Yes and no. There are other variables as well
The movement is different on these surfaces. The ball gets heavier quicker as it gathers dirt on clay.
 

Federer and Del Potro

Bionic Poster
The real life test of playing on clay is ...

Playing on clay.

1bqre6.jpg
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
No. No matter what anyone says, surfaces differ much more than simple court speed.
Well, I can tell you that Indian Wells this year is the slowest HC I have ever seen in my life. I include recreational or park courts as well. And everyone who says, "but the ball flies through the air so quickly here!" don't know what they're talking about. These courts are literally as slow as clay, with nearly as high of a ball bounce. Like Courier said yesterday, "I played for 20 minutes on a practice court and felt like I was in Rome, it's that slow."
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Fed's "ability of play on clay" has never been in doubt. He's one of the greatest clay court players of the past 20 years. And please explain how Fed is supposed to play on clay this year when he is not playing MC, Madrid or Rome because of proven prior commitments. He's just going to show up in Paris in May with no tune ups and play the event? Not happening, for the millioneth time.
 

MasturB

Legend
Miami plays slower than Indian Wells.

The Court Index for Court 1 is 28 again. Court 2 is 29 at Indian Wells.

Miami has humidity and sticky conditions so it plays much slower.
 
N

nikdom

Guest
What if Indian Wells were to become a clay court tournament - blue clay to be specific?

(Let’s see how much Nadal and Djokovic whine if Mr.Ellison makes that decision.)

Miami should be a har-tru tournament. Make these two part of the American clay court swing.
 

AiRFederer

Hall of Fame
Well, I can tell you that Indian Wells this year is the slowest HC I have ever seen in my life. I include recreational or park courts as well. And everyone who says, "but the ball flies through the air so quickly here!" don't know what they're talking about. These courts are literally as slow as clay, with nearly as high of a ball bounce. Like Courier said yesterday, "I played for 20 minutes on a practice court and felt like I was in Rome, it's that slow."
And still it wont be indicative of one's performance on clay.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
No. No matter what anyone says, surfaces differ much more than simple court speed.
Well, I can tell you that Indian Wells this year is the slowest HC I have ever seen in my life. I include recreational or park courts as well. And everyone who says, "but the ball flies through the air so quickly here!" don't know what they're talking about. These courts are literally as slow as clay, with nearly as high of a ball bounce. Like Courier said yesterday, "I played for 20 minutes on a practice court and felt like I was in Rome, it's that slow."

Ace rates in this tournament are about in-line with normal HC tournies. So, he has a point. Regardless of how subjectively slow it might feel, it doesn't play like clay. Not in any significant way, at least.
 
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Probably not because it's um.... a hard court

Fed hasn't lost his ability to play on clay - he is a great clay courter. He has just prefered to save his ageing body in recent seasons from what is the most physical of surfaces.
 

every7

Hall of Fame
Of all non-clay events, Indian Wells has probably the closest surface to playing conditions on clay.

- Speed : I don't have this year's data, but IW's Court Speed Index for 2017 was 27.4, barely faster than the clay M1000 events (between 20.9 and 24.9).-

- Bounce : "On this surface especially, the ball bounces really high which suits my game." Kohlschreiber.

Of course, the ball travels much faster in the California desert and the movement is different than on red clay, but it's still an indication.

What do you think ?

The real life test of playing on clay is ...

Playing on clay.

/Thread
 

Vrad

Professional
What if Indian Wells were to become a clay court tournament - blue clay to be specific?

(Let’s see how much Nadal and Djokovic whine if Mr.Ellison makes that decision.)

Miami should be a har-tru tournament. Make these two part of the American clay court swing.
Ellison is a Nadal fan. Slow courts at IW are not a coincidence.

He is not gonna make any decisions that make Nadal unhappy.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Of all non-clay events, Indian Wells has probably the closest surface to playing conditions on clay.

- Speed : I don't have this year's data, but IW's Court Speed Index for 2017 was 27.4, barely faster than the clay M1000 events (between 20.9 and 24.9).-

- Bounce : "On this surface especially, the ball bounces really high which suits my game." Kohlschreiber.

Of course, the ball travels much faster in the California desert and the movement is different than on red clay, but it's still an indication.

What do you think ?

27.4 is not BARELY faster than 20.9. Cincy at 33.6 feels a lot faster than IW for example. Further, you are talking about the slowest clay masters but Philippe Chatrier is slower still. You may be looking at a 10 point or so difference in court pace. Add to that the huge playing area at PC and it's an altogether different proposition. IW is huge too but it's still a hard court so the benefits of staying far back aren't the same as on the slowest clay court in the world.
 
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Deleted member 758553

Guest
Well, I can tell you that Indian Wells this year is the slowest HC I have ever seen in my life. I include recreational or park courts as well. And everyone who says, "but the ball flies through the air so quickly here!" don't know what they're talking about. These courts are literally as slow as clay, with nearly as high of a ball bounce. Like Courier said yesterday, "I played for 20 minutes on a practice court and felt like I was in Rome, it's that slow."

It can feel like Rome speed-wise but as Roger just mentioned Rafa is the best mover on clay and that can't be practiced/replicated on hard courts.
 

duaneeo

Legend
Of all non-clay events, Indian Wells has probably the closest surface to playing conditions on clay.

Of course, the ball travels much faster in the California desert and the movement is different than on red clay, but it's still an indication.

I say Miami is a better indication.

After 2006 Miami became Federer's worst Masters, with no finals made. That he won 5 difficult matches in 2017 and then smoked Nadal in the final (as Nadal had smoked him in the 2011 SF) is an indication that a confident Federer with a bigger racquet translates well on any surface.
 

AiRFederer

Hall of Fame
Ace rates in this tournament are about in-line with normal HC tournies. So, he has a point. Regardless of how subjectively slow it might feel, it doesn't play like clay. Not in any significant way, at least.
Besides, its so much more than actual match play. You have to take into consideration the weeks of preparation that comes before that.
 

smoledman

G.O.A.T.
No the real issue on clay is how Federer would have to arrange his training block for which events? I guess Rome & RG. Also he has to think about if he goes deep at both, how does that impact Wimbledon? His chances of winning Wimbledon if he skips the clay are off the charts. If he plays clay, he reduces his chances. First priority is win Indian Wells. Then he'll start thinking seriously about whether clay or not.
 

Shaolin

Talk Tennis Guru
By the way, does somebody know the Court Speed Index (CSI) of blue clay?
Also, how many blue clay courts have been built in the history of tennis?

I think it may have been the first blue clay court on the ATP ever but I have no confirmation of it.

I heard that it was slightly slippery (why it was hated on so much by a few players I won't name) so it may have been faster than normal clay by a bit.

I think it was a great idea, I like how it looked on TV and ball visibility was way better than watching red clay…I wish it wouldnt have been shot down so fast. :(
 
D

Deleted member 742196

Guest
Of all non-clay events, Indian Wells has probably the closest surface to playing conditions on clay.

- Speed : I don't have this year's data, but IW's Court Speed Index for 2017 was 27.4, barely faster than the clay M1000 events (between 20.9 and 24.9).-

- Bounce : "On this surface especially, the ball bounces really high which suits my game." Kohlschreiber.

Of course, the ball travels much faster in the California desert and the movement is different than on red clay, but it's still an indication.

What do you think ?

Two part answer:
1A: If Fed has a tight set/close match its sure evidence IW is the same as clay.

1B: If Fed breezes through matches at IW he still has no chance on clay, and shouldn't trouble himself with it.

Really, this whole clay thing is grating as everyone's declared their positions a 100 different ways already.

A minority here [myself included] want to see him on clay, and think he can do well on it.

The majority don't want him on clay for one reason or another, and think he shouldn't bother.

It's as complicated and as simple as that.
 
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Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
Two part answer:
A minority here [myself included] want to see him on clay, and think he can do well on it.
The majority don't want him on clay for one reason or another, and think he shouldn't bother.
It's as complicated and as simple as that.
A new slogan for the Northern Hemisphere spring season:
“Let Federer Clay!”
To be seen in t-shirts, banners, billboards, etc.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
I say Miami is a better indication.

After 2006 Miami became Federer's worst Masters, with no finals made. That he won 5 difficult matches in 2017 and then smoked Nadal in the final (as Nadal had smoked him in the 2011 SF) is an indication that a confident Federer with a bigger racquet translates well on any surface.
I remember a time when Miami wasn't a guarantee for Federer to participate. It's hot, lack of success, Federer should skip etc. Everyone would say the same thing now if he hadn't won it last year.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
27.4 is not BARELY faster than 20.9. Cincy at 33.6 feels a lot faster than IW for example. Further, you are talking about the slowest clay masters but Philippe Chatrier is slower still. You may be looking at a 10 point or so difference in court pace. Add to that the huge playing area at PC and it's an altogether different proposition. IW is huge too but it's still a hard court so the benefits of staying far back aren't the same as on the slowest clay court in the world.
Not to mention that a slow HC will never be the same thing as a clay court. The speed isn't the only relevant thing involved, it's the movement too. Nadal will always move better on clay than on slow HC, otherwise he would have dominated slow HC as much as clay.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
feathery drop shots?....impossibly angled sliced backhands? ......"opening up" the court?

Have you ever played on a clay tennis court TMF? . Hold it, .let me rephrase that: . have you ever played tennis--period? . .
We are talking about clay, not grass. Unlike on grass, quality serve gets neutralize and there's hardly any free point. It's harder to hitting passing shot and serve/volley. Clay is not suit for aggressive and for net rusher as appose to grass, but rely on extended long rally from the distance. To win it will come down to a war of attrition. Do you ever watch Roger played on grass and clay?
 
Nice dodge. . I was talking about clay. . And you attempting to explain the nuances of clay-vs-grass play represents new heights of pretense. . While amusing, . your scholarship here could be best described as a few boilerplate "court surface" generalizations that everyone and their mother already knows.

Further, and more to the point: .have you ever played tennis on clay? Check that: . have you ever played tennis period?
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Nice dodge. . I was talking about clay. . And you attempting to explain the nuances of clay-vs-grass play represents new heights of pretense. . While amusing, . your scholarship here could be best described as a few boilerplate "court surface" generalizations that everyone and their mother already knows.

Further, and more to the point: .have you ever played tennis on clay? Check that: . have you ever played tennis period?

How is saying the difference between playing on grass and clay is a pretense? There's hardly any short point, and long rally suits for Nadal's endless grinding style and is 5 years younger. There's a reason why fans don't want Federer play on clay to preserve his body for the grass season. Whether you play tennis on clay still wouldn't give any clue about Federer's approach on clay and grass unless you really follow his game and watch many of his matches throughout his career.
 
You're still dodging. . Moving on...in today's watered-down tour, .Fed could wipe the pants off 95% of the clay-courters anyway. . And besides, .Nadal nowadays is no guarantee to win any tournament on any surface.

And I have followed his (RF) game - as do ALL fans of this great sport. . But alas, .I suppose it's the "big picture" universality of our perspective that's lost amidst the myopia of one-trick-pony TT cheerleaders.


my favorite male tennis idol !!!
I-Like-That.gif
 
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Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Clay and HC will always be vastly different surfaces no matter how much anybody thinks there are "similarities."

So no.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Well, I can tell you that Indian Wells this year is the slowest HC I have ever seen in my life. I include recreational or park courts as well. And everyone who says, "but the ball flies through the air so quickly here!" don't know what they're talking about. These courts are literally as slow as clay, with nearly as high of a ball bounce. Like Courier said yesterday, "I played for 20 minutes on a practice court and felt like I was in Rome, it's that slow."

Courier's full of it. No HC can be some sort of match practice for clay.
 
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