Is it a mystery how Nadal has won more US Opens than Djokovic?

Jokervich

Hall of Fame
Djokovic is a much better hard court player than Nadal, yet Nadal has won it 4 times to Djokovic's 3 times. That's despite Nadal missing the tournament 3 times compared to only 1 time for Djokovic. How has Nadal won more US Opens? I'm confused.
 

USO

Banned
Djokovic is a much better hard court player than Nadal, yet Nadal has won it 4 times to Djokovic's 3 times. That's despite Nadal missing the tournament 3 times compared to only 1 time for Djokovic. How has Nadal won more US Opens? I'm confused.
No but it’s a mystery that Djokovic won more Wimbledons since Nadal has a much better slice and is much better at the net. But Djokovic’s luck like a roof with no rain, 40-15, etc. made the difference.
 

ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
Federer v Djokovic at USO = 6 meetings
Federer v Nadal at USO = 0 meetings

Djokovic would have picked up USO 07, 08 and 09 without Federer standing in his way. But, it is what it is.

The stupid 2020 incident is all on Djokovic though.
Don't forget about 2016, that was a winnable one.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Don't forget about 2016, that was a winnable one.
In honesty, if Djokovic had won that one, it would have been daylight robbery, with two walkovers and one match ending with an injury, Novak sleepwalked his way to the final, and didn't face anyone who could expose his weakened level. Monfils was so pathetic in the semis, that was just embarassing from him. All the in form players, like Murray, Nishikori, Wawrinka, Del Potro etc were all on the other side.
 

BauerAlmeida

Professional
Djokovic was very unlucky in the finals he played there, he has 11 SFs against Nadal's 8 in the tournament and 8 finals against Nadal's 5. He's been obviously more consistent but for different reasons, he was unable to get more titles. In 2007 he was in his first slam final and nerves let him down, in 2012 the wind and the schedule screwed him, in 2013 he had that awful choke in the 3rd and a much tougher draw to get to the final, etc. The one he has himself to blame the most for is 2014, he had an easy path in SF and F and lost to a far inferior player without even taking it to 5. Nonetheless, since 2006 the only two times he didn't make the SF was because of an injury and a disqualification, so he's bound to get another trophy there with his consistency at the event. He did get lucky in 2011, but he had far more bad luck than good luck there.

Federer v Djokovic at USO = 6 meetings
Federer v Nadal at USO = 0 meetings

Djokovic would have picked up USO 07, 08 and 09 without Federer standing in his way. But, it is what it is.

The stupid 2020 incident is all on Djokovic though.
This is another fair point, he's had tougher draws than Nadal.

No but it’s a mystery that Djokovic won more Wimbledons since Nadal has a much better slice and is much better at the net. But Djokovic’s luck like a roof with no rain, 40-15, etc. made the difference.
The difference is Djokovic has THREE more Wimbledon titles, while Nadal has only one extra USO.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
No but it’s a mystery that Djokovic won more Wimbledons since Nadal has a much better slice and is much better at the net. But Djokovic’s luck like a roof with no rain, 40-15, etc. made the difference.
Because Djokovic wasn't letting players outside the top 100 clobber him year after year. So much for the better slice and being better at the net, at least Djokovic was not subjected to that on an annual basis.

Get a grip on your statements.
 

daphne

Hall of Fame
Federer v Djokovic at USO = 6 meetings
Federer v Nadal at USO = 0 meetings

Djokovic would have picked up USO 07, 08 and 09 without Federer standing in his way. But, it is what it is.

The stupid 2020 incident is all on Djokovic though.
Amen!
 

daphne

Hall of Fame
No.

Djokovic
5 = IW
6 = Miami
2 = Cincinnati
4 = Canada
3 = USO

Nadal

3 = IW
0 = Miami
1 = Cincinnati
5 = Canada
4 = USO

Overall it is Djokovic, Nadal doesn't have any wins in Miami. You cannot be better, if you haven't even got all the trophies and your rival does.
When you multiply with 0 you get 0 so Nadl is out of competition.
 

topher

Hall of Fame
Federer v Djokovic at USO = 6 meetings
Federer v Nadal at USO = 0 meetings

Djokovic would have picked up USO 07, 08 and 09 without Federer standing in his way. But, it is what it is.

The stupid 2020 incident is all on Djokovic though.
It’s not just Fed. Which year Rafa won it could Fed have stopped him? Or if Novak from 07, 08, or 09 played Rafa in the 2010 or 2013 finals, would he have won?

Novak has simply not played as well at the USO as Rafa has, there’s nothing wrong with admitting that. He’s more than made up for it at AO and Wimbledon.
 
Last edited:

Sabrina

Hall of Fame
Djokovic underperformed at USO on several occasions and Nadal maximized all his chances there (Nadal wouldn't let Murray take an USO trophy from him like Novak would for eg).
 

ElisRF

Hall of Fame
Federer v Djokovic at USO = 6 meetings
Federer v Nadal at USO = 0 meetings

Djokovic would have picked up USO 07, 08 and 09 without Federer standing in his way. But, it is what it is.

The stupid 2020 incident is all on Djokovic though.
2007 and 2009 are heavily debateable if Novak wins both with no Federer.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
It’s not just Fed. Which year Rafa won it could Fed have stopped him? Or if Novak from 07, 08, or 09 played Rafa in the 2010 or 2013 finals, would he have won?

Novak has simply not played as well at the USO as Rafa has, there’s nothing wrong with admitting that. He’s more than made up for it at AO and Wimbledon.
Djokovic played peak/prime Federer during that 07-09 run. Most people know post AO 2010 Federer was in decline and post prime. The Federer after that was not the same Federer.

So, I stand by my point, Djokovic had to deal with peak/prime Federer during that 07-09, had he not been around, Djokovic could have had three USO titles before Nadal even had a sniff at his first.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
2007 and 2009 are heavily debateable that Novak wins both with no Federer.
Roddick 07 and Del Potro 09 are his rivals then....Considering how in form Novak was in 07, having won Montreal beating Roddick, Nadal and Federer in a row, I'd favor him. And lets be honest, if Federer was tactically sound, he could have put Del Potro away in straights in the USO 2009 final, his arrogance allowed Del Potro to get away with a lot in the match, by trying to take on that forehand. Djokovic is Del Potro's worst match up, he wouldn't play that game with him. So for me, he takes all three without Federer standing in his way.
 

ElisRF

Hall of Fame
Roddick 07 and Del Potro 09 are his rivals then....Considering how in form Novak was in 07, having won Montreal beating Roddick, Nadal and Federer in a row, I'd favor him. And lets be honest, if Federer was tactically sound, he could have put Del Potro away in straights in the USO 2009 final, his arrogance allowed Del Potro to get away with a lot in the match, by trying to take on that forehand. Djokovic is Del Potro's worst match up, he wouldn't play that game with him. So for me, he takes all three with Federer standing in his way.
Del Potro mainly lost to better Djokovic versions even with that tough match when in worst form than USO 2009. Not sure 2009 Djokovic deals with the firepower and if it goes longer i think Del Potro would have fitness edge. I guess fair point on the confidence factor with Roddick but Roddick played a better match vs Federer than Djokovic did in the QF (Federer was in worse from in the F) and it would be tough with the crowd support probably in favour Roddick.
 

mahesh69a

Semi-Pro
Slam-wise percentages of toughest opponents actually faced are as below:

Federer at AO - 14/30 - 46.67%
Federer at RG - 1/5 - 20% - Sampling size is too small as it is just one slam won
Federer at W - 19/40 - 47.5%
Federer at UO - 10/25 - 40%

Nadal at AO - 3/5 - 60% - Sampling size is too small as it is just one slam won
Nadal at RG - 26/65 - 40%
Nadal at W - 5/10 - 50%
Nadal at UO - 2/20 - 10%

Djokovic at AO - 30/45 - 66.67%
Djokovic at RG - 3/5 - 60% - Sampling size is too small as it is just one slam won
Djokovic at W - 9/25 - 36%
Djokovic at UO - 6/15 - 40%

Nadal at US Open is definitely an anomaly at 10% - only 2 seeds faced out of the toughest possible 20 seeds in 4 slams won.
Djokovic (66.67% at AO) and Federer (47.5% at W) had their toughest competition at their best slam.


Full details in my thread https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...d-what-actually-happened-in-slams-won.694388/

 
Last edited:

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic played peak/prime Federer during that 07-09 run. Most people know post AO 2010 Federer was in decline and post prime. The Federer after that was not the same Federer.

So, I stand by my point, Djokovic had to deal with peak/prime Federer during that 07-09, had he not been around, Djokovic could have had three USO titles before Nadal even had a sniff at his first.
Ironically, Djokovic fans always forget that when it comes to comparing their Wimbledon competition.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Del Potro mainly lost to better Djokovic versions even with that tough match when in worst form than USO 2009. Not sure 2009 Djokovic deals with the firepower and if it goes longer i think Del Potro would have fitness edge. I guess fair point on the confidence factor with Roddick but Roddick played a better match vs Federer than Djokovic did in the QF (Federer was in worse from in the F) and it would be tough with the crowd support probably in favour Roddick.
Do you agree that if Federer had actually played the match the way he should have, he would have put Del Potro down in straights or at worst four sets. Do you really think Djokovic was going to dare to play the game of going into Del Potro's forehand time and time again, when his bread and butter tactic against Del Potro has always been the BH CC, followed up the BH DTL? The match up does not favor Del Potro, Del Potro matches up a lot better against Federer because of the way both try to focus on the forehand.

Roddick did play a good match against Federer, I never said he didn't, it was one of the highest quality matches they played against each other, but I go back to my point that I felt Djokovic had serious momentum on his side, had beaten world number 3 2 1 in a row, including giving peak Federer his first loss in a non-clay final at a big event since Nalbandian in TMC, and even then Federer was nursing an ankle injury. I can't give this one to Roddick personally, Djokovic looked like he was only going to be stopped by Federer IMO.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Del Potro mainly lost to better Djokovic versions even with that tough match when in worst form than USO 2009. Not sure 2009 Djokovic deals with the firepower and if it goes longer i think Del Potro would have fitness edge. I guess fair point on the confidence factor with Roddick but Roddick played a better match vs Federer than Djokovic did in the QF (Federer was in worse from in the F) and it would be tough with the crowd support probably in favour Roddick.
Lol, Del Potro was 3-0 down in head to head against 2017 Djokovic.
 

Sabrina

Hall of Fame
Look, you know where I personally stand on this.

Federer AO 2010 - End of prime
Nadal AO 2014 - End of prime
Djokovic RG 2016 - End of prime

Haven't change that view.
When was the beginning of their primes in your view? Federer was obviously TMC 2003, What about Nadal and Djokovic?
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
When was the beginning of their prime in your view? Federer was obviously TMC 2003, What about Nadal and Djokovic?
Federer prime was actually earlier than that IMO, it started to happen during the clay season, when he reached Rome 2003 final, then from Halle he gained strength.

Nadal Miami 2005 he entered his prime, the reason why Nadal's prime is longer stretched is, unlike Federer he was injured a lot, so there were periods he was just not around.

Djokovic Montreal 2007 enters his prime fully, that event was his true coming out party.
 

ElisRF

Hall of Fame
Do you agree that if Federer had actually played the match the way he should have, he would have put Del Potro down in straights or at worst four sets. Do you really think Djokovic was going to dare to play the game of going into Del Potro's forehand time and time again, when his bread and butter tactic against Del Potro has always been the BH CC, followed up the BH DTL? The match up does not favor Del Potro, Del Potro matches up a lot better against Federer because of the way both try to focus on the forehand.

Roddick did play a good match against Federer, I never said he didn't, it was one of the highest quality matches they played against each other, but I go back to my point that I felt Djokovic had serious momentum on his side, had beaten world number 3 2 1 in a row, including giving peak Federer his first loss in a non-clay final at a big event since Nalbandian in TMC, and even then Federer was nursing an ankle injury. I can't give this one to Roddick personally, Djokovic looked like he was only going to be stopped by Federer IMO.
Del Potro did worse vs Djokovic but quite a few matches closer to Djokovic prime period. I agree that Federer playing better should have probably ended Del Potro in 4 sets. Fair enough i guess i was underselling the chances Djokovic had i guess you could make cases both ways.
 

topher

Hall of Fame
Djokovic played peak/prime Federer during that 07-09 run. Most people know post AO 2010 Federer was in decline and post prime. The Federer after that was not the same Federer.

So, I stand by my point, Djokovic had to deal with peak/prime Federer during that 07-09, had he not been around, Djokovic could have had three USO titles before Nadal even had a sniff at his first.
Yes but that Novak wasn’t good enough to beat Rafa in either of the finals he lost to him either. The problem wasn’t Fed, it was Novak’s level.

Novak entered his prime in 2011 after Fed exited his, so it’s a bit bizarre to be using Fed as an excuse. Novak has had over a decade now to win the USO without peak Fed.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Del Potro did worse vs Djokovic but quite a few matches closer to Djokovic prime period. I agree that Federer playing better should have probably ended Del Potro in 4 sets. Fair enough i guess i was underselling the chances Djokovic had i guess you could make cases both ways.
Lets be honest here, it doesn't matter if you are Federer, Nadal or Djokovic, you just don't play chicken with Del Potro's forehand, you're going to lose. Federer was trying to show his forehand was bigger, he should have been more focused on winning the match.
 

ElisRF

Hall of Fame
Lets be honest here, it doesn't matter if you are Federer, Nadal or Djokovic, you just don't play chicken with Del Potro's forehand, you're going to lose. Federer was trying to show his forehand was bigger, he should have been more focused on winning the match.
Fair enough i feel as if Federer was still playing well overall even so and not sure if Novak at that stage could deal with the firepower but maybe because Djokovic does match up well with Del Potro.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Yes but that Novak wasn’t good enough to beat Rafa in either of the finals he lost to him either. The problem wasn’t Fed, it was Novak’s level.

Novak entered his prime in 2011 after Fed exited his, so it’s a bit bizarre to be using Fed as an excuse. Novak has had over a decade now to win the USO without peak Fed.
You're still failing to see what I am saying here. I said Djokovic had to deal with prime/peak Federer from 07-09, Nadal didn't have to deal with prime/peak Federer ever at the USO, because during that time, Nadal wasn't making the finals.

Had Djokovic not faced peak/prime Federer, he could have already been sitting on 3 USO titles BEFORE Nadal even won his first one. Unlike Nadal who only dealt with Djokovic, Djokovic dealt with peak/prime versions of Nadal and Federer.

So, not it is not a bizarre excuse, it is straight forward.

Had Djokovic ONLY faced Federer from 2010 onwards, your point holds water, but he also faced him when Federer was the undisputed king of USO, Nadal never did that. I;ve already made my case on why Novak was winning those titles, and to me he was prime.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Fair enough i feel as if Federer was still playing well overall even so and not sure if Novak at that stage could deal with the firepower but maybe because Djokovic does match up well with Del Potro.
Federer was playing well overall, I am not saying Federer started to suck, I am saying Federer made stupid tactical decisions, where he focused on hitting to Del Potro's forehand and it made no sense whatsoever for him to play that way. It was like he was stubborn in thinking - I'm going to beat this guy at his own game - Instead of using everything else he had in his arsenal to hurt Del Potro, such as the short cross court slice.

Novak isn't going to play chicken with Del Potro, because he doesn't have the forehand for it anyway, he would focus on what he always does against him, pin him into his backhand corner and take the forehand out. Federer lost because of his arrogance really, which is why he regrets that match so much.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
You're still failing to see what I am saying here. I said Djokovic had to deal with prime/peak Federer from 07-09, Nadal didn't have to deal with prime/peak Federer ever at the USO, because during that time, Nadal wasn't making the finals.

Had Djokovic not faced peak/prime Federer, he could have already been sitting on 3 USO titles BEFORE Nadal even won his first one. Unlike Nadal who only dealt with Djokovic, Djokovic dealt with peak/prime versions of Nadal and Federer.

So, not it is not a bizarre excuse, it is straight forward.

Had Djokovic ONLY faced Federer from 2010 onwards, your point holds water, but he also faced him when Federer was the undisputed king of USO, Nadal never did that. I;ve already made my case on why Novak was winning those titles, and to me he was prime.
You know, Nadal also faced strong opponents in the 2008 and 2009 semifinals. And had he won he would have to face Federer.
 

topher

Hall of Fame
You're still failing to see what I am saying here. I said Djokovic had to deal with prime/peak Federer from 07-09, Nadal didn't have to deal with prime/peak Federer ever at the USO, because during that time, Nadal wasn't making the finals.

Had Djokovic not faced peak/prime Federer, he could have already been sitting on 3 USO titles BEFORE Nadal even won his first one. Unlike Nadal who only dealt with Djokovic, Djokovic dealt with peak/prime versions of Nadal and Federer.

So, not it is not a bizarre excuse, it is straight forward.

Had Djokovic ONLY faced Federer from 2010 onwards, your point holds water, but he also faced him when Federer was the undisputed king of USO, Nadal never did that. I;ve already made my case on why Novak was winning those titles, and to me he was prime.
Novak was prime in 2007? You’re about the only person I’ve ever heard say that...

I could equally make a case that if Murray or Del Po didn’t peak in those 08 and 09 matches against him, he could’ve won against Fed in those finals. I know Fed fans were much happier to see who they did in those finals at the time. But what happened, happened.

I’ve heard exactly the excuses you are making. There are always excuses, but the truth is Novak has just not played as well at the USO overall as Rafa. It’s pretty simple.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
You know, Nadal also faced strong opponents in the 2008 and 2009 semifinals. And had he won he would have to face Federer.
Yes, but he lost to players not named Federer. Djokovic actually lost to Federer. It's the not same thing.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Novak was prime in 2007? You’re about the only person I’ve ever heard say that...

I could equally make a case that if Murray or Del Po didn’t peak in those 08 and 09 matches against him, he could’ve won against Fed in those finals. I know Fed fans were much happier to see who they did in those finals at the time. But what happened, happened.

I’ve heard exactly the excuses you are making. There are always excuses, but the truth is Novak has just not played as well at the USO overall as Rafa. It’s pretty simple.
I've always said Djokovic was prime level in 2007.

Djokovic 2011 was peak level, but his prime started before that.

If Nadal 2010 and 2013 had to deal with Federer 2007, 2008 and 2009, can you confidently tell me that Nadal would be winning those matches. Without any shadow of doubt. I get the excuses you are making also, but its' a fact that you cannot push under the rug that Nadal never dealt with the peak version of Federer, Djokovic did. Had Djokovic played Anderson or Medvedev in those USO encounters in 2007, 2008, I am sure he would be smiling at the prospect.
 

ElisRF

Hall of Fame
Federer was playing well overall, I am not saying Federer started to suck, I am saying Federer made stupid tactical decisions, where he focused on hitting to Del Potro's forehand and it made no sense whatsoever for him to play that way. It was like he was stubborn in thinking - I'm going to beat this guy at his own game - Instead of using everything else he had in his arsenal to hurt Del Potro, such as the short cross court slice.

Novak isn't going to play chicken with Del Potro, because he doesn't have the forehand for it anyway, he would focus on what he always does against him, pin him into his backhand corner and take the forehand out. Federer lost because of his arrogance really, which is why he regrets that match so much.
Djokovic would underlook Del Potro like Federer did but his game was not in the same place it was in later year and Del Potro in 2009 actually had a pretty good BH probably his best year of hitting on that wing.

Anyway slight disagree but i see the points you make.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic would underlook Del Potro like Federer did but his game was not in the same place it was in later year and Del Potro in 2009 actually had a pretty good BH probably his best year of hitting on that wing.

Anyway slight disagree but i see the points you make.
Djokovic was 3-0 against Del Potro without dropping a set at that point. He knew exactly how to play him, took him out in straights in Rome that year also. And it wasn't like Del Potro was bad at the time of Rome, only a few weeks later, he gives Federer an almighty war at RG. Against Federer, Del Potro had started to get his game to a point where he could hurt him by the time USO happened, Federer barely survived RG....that RG match should have been Federer's wake up call.

I don't think Djokovic has any reason to do what Federer did, or even deviate from the game plan that had worked so effectively against Del Potro. Also keep in mind, Djokovic was far more experienced at this point than Del Potro, having already won the AO title. Del Potro did have good hitting off the backhand wing, but he was still going down in straights against Federer had Federer stayed with the tactic of working him over on that side, instead of mid match changing to forehand exchanges. Djokovic's game wasn't that bad either in 2009, he lost Cincy final to Federer and lost USO 2009 to Federer, it wasn't like he was losing to mugs during that period.

Anyways we can agree to disagree. No problems.
 
Last edited:
Top