Is it bad etiquette to drop shot older guys during league play?

tennisandtennis

tennisandtennis

Semi-Pro
I am new to playing in adult leagues, and I'm in a low league (3.0-4.0) where guys do compete and take it seriously enough. I was watching some Agassi/Fed highlights from the 2005 USO, and McEnroe says, after a nasty Fed drop shot, "Oh, that's against the unwritten rules. You can't drop shot an old guy like that!" [paraphrasing]

Now, of course, he's being tongue-in-cheek, because almost anything goes at the pro level, even underhand serves and the infamous SABR. But is he referencing a casual/rec-player unwritten rule that I should be aware of? I ask this because I've been crushing the 50-somethings with my drop shot on their serves, and more than one guy has seemed unhappy about it. Problem is that you can't tell if they're unhappy with you or themselves, per usual. Any thoughts?
 
tennisandtennis said:
I am new to playing in adult leagues, and I'm in a low league (3.0-4.0) where guys do compete and take it seriously enough. I was watching some Agassi/Fed highlights from the 2005 USO, and McEnroe says, after a nasty Fed drop shot, "Oh, that's against the unwritten rules. You can't drop shot an old guy like that!" [paraphrasing]

Now, of course, he's being tongue-in-cheek, because almost anything goes at the pro level, even underhand serves and the infamous SABR. But is he referencing a casual/rec-player unwritten rule that I should be aware of? I ask this because I've been crushing the 50-somethings with my drop shot on their serves, and more than one guy has seemed unhappy about it. Problem is that you can't tell if they're unhappy with you or themselves, per usual. Any thoughts?
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If you hit the ball really deep and fast at them, and they are unable to get to it because of their age, is that rude too?
If you hit to one corner and then another corner, and they can't get to that because of their age, is that rude?
If they lack speed or mobility it's up to them to anticipate/read you better.
 
Now, of course, he's being tongue-in-cheek, because almost anything goes at the pro level, even underhand serves and the infamous SABR. But is he referencing a casual/rec-player unwritten rule that I should be aware of?
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Nah, it's just tongue in cheek.

I ask this because I've been crushing the 50-somethings with my drop shot on their serves, and more than one guy has seemed unhappy about it. Problem is that you can't tell if they're unhappy with you or themselves, per usual. Any thoughts?
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If you're "crushing people" overall, you should find better opponents. It can definitely be disheartening if you're losing so bad that the opponent looks like they're just messing around. Lots of people don't like playing sandbaggers; I can also see how that would be doubly annoying for older folks, since someone young might at least take away the lesson that "hey I should improve and combat that", whereas at some point the older guys might just think "well, wish I were 20 years younger so I could compete here, but that ship has sailed." Are you getting those dirty looks in matches you're winning easily anyway?

If you have close matches with people and are using dropshots as a tactic in those matches, it's obviously fine, because presumably those guys have stuff they're doing on court that you can't handle as well.

Generally I would expect that if someone's serve and movement is so weak compared to your return that you can routinely hit dropshot winners off of their serve, then you're just way out of level. I suppose there could be exceptions if your opponent has a weak serve, bad movement, but massive groundstrokes that you can barely handle, but that's a very specific combination...

Or possibly the range in your league ("3.0-4.0") is just too large. That range spans basically 90% of rec players, I think.
 
tennisandtennis said:
I am new to playing in adult leagues, and I'm in a low league (3.0-4.0) where guys do compete and take it seriously enough. I was watching some Agassi/Fed highlights from the 2005 USO, and McEnroe says, after a nasty Fed drop shot, "Oh, that's against the unwritten rules. You can't drop shot an old guy like that!" [paraphrasing]

Now, of course, he's being tongue-in-cheek, because almost anything goes at the pro level, even underhand serves and the infamous SABR. But is he referencing a casual/rec-player unwritten rule that I should be aware of? I ask this because I've been crushing the 50-somethings with my drop shot on their serves, and more than one guy has seemed unhappy about it. Problem is that you can't tell if they're unhappy with you or themselves, per usual. Any thoughts?
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perfectly legit... complaining old guys are just mad that you are exploiting what they may not be willing to accept... they can't move anymore.

that said, after i've beaten them a couple times (made it clear to them that they have a gaping hole in their game that i can/will exploit over and over)... i'll stop exploiting that particular weakness and hit it to them (maybe i move them side to side)... especailly if i want to challenge myself more.

my dad is a 3.0 in his 80's and can't move much... i can absolutely drop shot the crap out of him, and i'm now old enough that he can't ground me for doing so :P... but if i did that, it wouldn't be much fun for either of us... (unless i have some perverse sense of vengeance for not buying me that hot wheels truck when i was 10).... but i can have a great hitting session with him, if i keep it his strikezone
 
Max G. said:
If you're "crushing people" overall, you should find better opponents. It can definitely be disheartening if you're losing so bad that the opponent looks like they're just messing around. Lots of people don't like playing sandbaggers; I can also see how that would be doubly annoying for older folks, since someone young might at least take away the lesson that "hey I should improve and combat that", whereas at some point the older guys might just think "well, wish I were 20 years younger so I could compete here, but that ship has sailed." Are you getting those dirty looks in matches you're winning easily anyway?
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This is my first league, and I plan to move up a section next round. I started playing again in January after a ten-year layoff, and my skills are rusty at best. I prefer 100% of the time to play up than play down. I'd rather steal a game a set against a 5.0 than crush a 2.5 10-0 in a pro set.

A lot of these guys push hard, and I find myself pressing and making a lot of unforced errors. But as I said, this is my first time playing competitive tennis (since age 14, and I wasn't any good back then) and still trying to figure out where I stand in the pecking order. The biggest difference I've seen at the 3.0 level is the serve -- it's sometimes consistent, but almost always with an eastern grip. I have a first serve that can ace 4.5s when it lands in, but my second serve is a looping kick serve with very little control. I hope these guys are seeing that my game has some major strengths (first serve and groundstrokes) and weaknesses (literally everything else).

At least when I play chess, I can defer to my ELO for matchups. Tennis is a bit tougher.
 
cortado said:
If you hit the ball really deep and fast at them, and they are unable to get to it because of their age, is that rude too?
If you hit to one corner and then another corner, and they can't get to that because of their age, is that rude?
If they lack speed or mobility it's up to them to anticipate/read you better.
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Yes, I agree. I film my matches and they often stare at the drop shot off my racquet, and by the time they decide to close it out, it's too late.
 
As an older player I would say yes it is very poor etiquette to drop shot an older player. I would really prefer the ball hit with medium pace hit just to the right of the middle hash so it bounces and is at just about waist level when it gets to me. Also, I would prefer you not put any fancy spin or anything on it.

You didn't ask about serving but please serve using a patty cake type motion so the ball goes up in the air (but not too much altitude) and lands in about the middle of the service box.
 
atatu said:
Older players have the best drop shots and they ruthlessly use them against each other....
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Last time I played the first conversation was about who covers short balls and who covers lobs. Recall dropping an opponent's serve. He left and did not come back. It's too bad we got to get old
 
I’ve seen way too many players lose to the old guys because they won’t exploit weaknesses. If it’s social tennis, I won’t do it (much). If it’s league play or a tourney, I’ll do it repeatedly if it works.
 
Depends on what you mean by “old guys”. If they are younger than 50-55, then they should have the fitness to be able to cover rec level drop shots, particularly a 3.0 - 4.0 drop shot (not like Federer level spin and dip). If they don’t have the fitness, that’s on them. But if you are drop shotting a 75 year old’s serve, then you need to apologize and find a more appropriate league.
 
my dad has about 30 years of experience on me. one day i told him i felt bad about drop shotting him. he told me, "well, worry first about beating me before you worry about feeling bad." :laughing:

are these old guys capable of beating you? then drop shot is fair game. no one says you have to win (or lose) to your opponent's advantage. it might feel a little dirty, but really is there a difference between them not getting to a drop shot and them not getting to a winner left to right?
 
Max G. said:
Generally I would expect that if someone's serve and movement is so weak compared to your return that you can routinely hit dropshot winners off of their serve, then you're just way out of level. I suppose there could be exceptions if your opponent has a weak serve, bad movement, but massive groundstrokes that you can barely handle, but that's a very specific combination...
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kind of like venus on tour....aside from the weak serve.
 
Max G. said:
Or possibly the range in your league ("3.0-4.0") is just too large. That range spans basically 90% of rec players, I think.
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100%. I squeaked into the 4.5 range. Against 4.0 players I have to play my best to win a close match sometimes but against the few 3.0 players I've run into my B game is close to winning golden sets.
 
This is an odd conversation, just in the context of ratings. Playing 3.0-4.0 alone is a huge range, but then saying killing 2.5 and playing up to steal a game from a 5.0.
How long have you been playing and what actual level are you, just to get better understanding.

As far as age and level, maybe at lower levels age and fitness/movement is a good percentage play, but less so as you get to 4.0 and up.
 
Max G. said:
Generally I would expect that if someone's serve and movement is so weak compared to your return that you can routinely hit dropshot winners off of their serve, then you're just way out of level
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This.

It's the worst combo, to be way out of level and abusing the weaknesses of players that those players can't help anymore.
 
Creighton said:
It's the worst combo, to be way out of level and abusing the weaknesses of players that those players can't help anymore.
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Even if you’re not out of level, hitting an attempted drop shot return on almost every point is kind of a d*ck way to play. If you are playing for money then anything goes, but your friends probably won’t want to hit with you for fun if you are doing this. There are no real points or rallies; just a sprint to the net on every point and its quickly over one way or another from there.
 
Depends on how good they are. If they're senior citizens just playing recreationally as a hobby, then it's probably bad etiquette to keep hitting drop shot returns. But a 45-year-old tennis coach who can actually kick my a** if he wanted to? Game on.

One caveat IMO: underhand serves. That's always a cheap tactic unless you genuinely can't serve properly.
 
time_fly said:
Even if you’re not out of level, hitting an attempted drop shot return on almost every point is kind of a d*ck way to play. If you are playing for money then anything goes, but your friends probably won’t want to hit with you for fun if you are doing this. There are no real points or rallies; just a sprint to the net on every point and its quickly over one way or another from there.
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If someone tried that on me, I'd just start serve & volleying. Easy fix unless you have the volleying skills of an ATP NextGenner.
 
ChaelAZ said:
As far as age and level, maybe at lower levels age and fitness/movement is a good percentage play, but less so as you get to 4.0 and up.
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But also, at the 4.0+ level, fitness/movement becomes the limiting factor as players age to either staying there or to improving further. I can and do hang with young 5.0 players when we're just hitting more or less down the middle but I know that because I'm soon to turn 60, there's no chance I'd ever have to move up to that level because I can't cover enough court.

As for the drop shots, I wouldn't do it and wouldn't expect it in recreational play but in any kind of competition, absolutely use them, along with any other shot that the opponent doesn't like.
 
If there's one thing more infuriating than drop shot returns, it's short chip returns. Legit tactic, but very annoying!
 
time_fly said:
Even if you’re not out of level, hitting an attempted drop shot return on almost every point is kind of a d*ck way to play. If you are playing for money then anything goes, but your friends probably won’t want to hit with you for fun if you are doing this. There are no real points or rallies; just a sprint to the net on every point and its quickly over one way or another from there.
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Agreed.

I actually had a weird experience in a league match earlier this year. I beat a very highly ranked 4.0 player who definitely has a 4.5 serve and probably a 4.5 forehand. After the match he refused to shake my hand and basically insulted me for being a pusher. He isn't wrong that I'm more of a pusher than I would like to be, but I don't lob or play junk balls. I just tend to enjoy rallying and making my opponents hit lots of balls. In our match, every single ball I hit to his backhand would result in a drop shot. So I spent the entire match running those down and winning lots of points when he would miss the next ball.

He then had the audacity to accuse me of taking the pace out of the ball the whole match. Had he just rallied with me more he would have easily beaten me. Instead he beat himself.
 
Creighton said:
Agreed.

I actually had a weird experience in a league match earlier this year. I beat a very highly ranked 4.0 player who definitely has a 4.5 serve and probably a 4.5 forehand. After the match he refused to shake my hand and basically insulted me for being a pusher. He isn't wrong that I'm more of a pusher than I would like to be, but I don't lob or play junk balls. I just tend to enjoy rallying and making my opponents hit lots of balls. In our match, every single ball I hit to his backhand would result in a drop shot. So I spent the entire match running those down and winning lots of points when he would miss the next ball.

He then had the audacity to accuse me of taking the pace out of the ball the whole match. Had he just rallied with me more he would have easily beaten me. Instead he beat himself.
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Ugh. I’m glad you beat that guy. What is wrong with people? Tennis is really fair. The player who plays better wins. As easy and simple as that. Now, having flashy and powerful shots is not the same as playing better. And that guy couldn’t stand the fact that you were better, so he was rude. Well done!
 
Drop shotting older guys is only legitimate if you lob them immediately after the one time they actually get to the ball.

But seriously, if you can hit a reliably good drop shot from behind the baseline, then you are welcome to it. If you can't hit one from behind the baseline then it's my job as someone that can't reach a drop shot, to keep you behind the baseline.

I typically only hit high percentage drop shots on short balls as do most rec players. So you keep them from doing that by keeping the ball deep. If you are older, that is your job. Keep them away from attacking you with drop shots.

Tennis is not just a game of hitting your best shots but also a game of keeping your opponent from hitting theirs. If I'm old and getting beat by drop shots, I have to not give my opponent that opportunity.
 
ChaelAZ said:
This is an odd conversation, just in the context of ratings. Playing 3.0-4.0 alone is a huge range, but then saying killing 2.5 and playing up to steal a game from a 5.0.
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He actually wrote "I'd rather steal a game a set against a 5.0 than crush a 2.5 10-0 in a pro set." So likely it's purely hypothetical?

But I agree: that's an awfully wide range of skills.
 
Creighton said:
Agreed.

I actually had a weird experience in a league match earlier this year. I beat a very highly ranked 4.0 player who definitely has a 4.5 serve and probably a 4.5 forehand. After the match he refused to shake my hand and basically insulted me for being a pusher. He isn't wrong that I'm more of a pusher than I would like to be, but I don't lob or play junk balls. I just tend to enjoy rallying and making my opponents hit lots of balls. In our match, every single ball I hit to his backhand would result in a drop shot. So I spent the entire match running those down and winning lots of points when he would miss the next ball.

He then had the audacity to accuse me of taking the pace out of the ball the whole match. Had he just rallied with me more he would have easily beaten me. Instead he beat himself.
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The excuses are his ego defense mechanism: "I just lost to someone I shouldn't have lost to so it must be because of something he did wrong/underhanded/unsportsmanlike." [instead of looking at things objectively and concluding that A) his response to your game plan was not good; and B) he failed to adjust.

I'm surprised he didn't pull out the "that wasn't real tennis" excuse.

BTW: there's nothing wrong [IMO] with lobs and junk balls if that's what makes him uncomfortable. Just like there's nothing wrong with TS or hitting wide/short or playing S&V, etc. Your goal is to find a weakness in his game and exploit it just as he's trying to do the same to you. You found his weakness but it would have been just as legit if the weakness was a lob or junk. He still wouldn't have shaken your hand at the end.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
No man wants to be beat by anything other than straight up power. We all accept power as the legitimate alpha move. So when finesse and strategy beats us, we need to put up our defenses rather than admit to getting beat by "beta male" tennis.

Human ego's can be fragile things.
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I agree and I think it has to do with the fact that when I get beaten by power, I can say "too good, there wasn't anything I could do" [which isn't completely true but that's the topic for another thread].

But if I get beaten by a pusher, it was on my racquet: I'm the one making the errors. I can't even racquet clap my opponent: why would I do that when I just dumped the 17th floaty serve return into the net?

Perceiving that I lost rather than my opponent won feels worse [even though a pusher isn't just a backboard; he knows how to encourage me to make errors. I just don't like admitting it.].
 
In any match where you’re actually keeping and reporting a score, do whatever you must to win.
If you’re hitting around with a friend or just playing out a few points, it’s a huge jerk move to hit drop shot after drop shot. It’s wearing out someone’s knees just for the heck of it. I find it comparable to trying to win points by beaming the other guy. Yea it wins the point…
 
Dartagnan64 said:
No man wants to be beat by anything other than straight up power. We all accept power as the legitimate alpha move. So when finesse and strategy beats us, we need to put up our defenses rather than admit to getting beat by "beta male" tennis.

Human ego's can be fragile things.
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That's ridiculous. No man wants to say he was straight up overpowered. If that EVER happened to me I would punch a hole through my racket strings and be done with this game forever! My losses are always due to some sneaky beta male move to avoid a real test that helped the other guy escape without his proper beating that will surely come next match. It is especially frustrating when these children (@ under 35) do that to grown men. (@ over 48).
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
He actually wrote "I'd rather steal a game a set against a 5.0 than crush a 2.5 10-0 in a pro set." So likely it's purely hypothetical?

But I agree: that's an awfully wide range of skills.
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It’s hypothetical. There are no 5.0s in this league, but my stringer is one and when we hit, I relish the opportunity to win a game against him.
 
King No1e said:
If there's one thing more infuriating than drop shot returns, it's short chip returns. Legit tactic, but very annoying!
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It works wonders against players who are 4.0s and below because a lot of them have issues putting away unexpected short balls without overhitting or dumping a hero forehand into the net.

Occasionally you'll get a ball back up the middle, but you can just take two steps around it and just hit it into the empty part of their court.
Ronaldo said:
Dropped a friend's serve. Never heard from him again
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I still think cutting the brake line in his wheelchair would be the more effective solution
 
Bender said:
It works wonders against players who are 4.0s and below because a lot of them have issues putting away unexpected short balls without overhitting or dumping a hero forehand into the net.

Occasionally you'll get a ball back up the middle, but you can just take two steps around it and just hit it into the empty part of their court.

I still think cutting the brake line in his wheelchair would be the more effective solution
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Nah, his ex gave him a one-way ticket to Naples
 
Bender said:
It works wonders against players who are 4.0s and below because a lot of them have issues putting away unexpected short balls without overhitting or dumping a hero forehand into the net.

Occasionally you'll get a ball back up the middle, but you can just take two steps around it and just hit it into the empty part of their court.

I still think cutting the brake line in his wheelchair would be the more effective solution
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It also works wonders against players above 4.0, namely Andy Roddick.
 
Bender said:
Who needs to worry about 4.0s like Roddick when you can beat weak era 3.5 losers like Philippoussis with a frying pan?
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Me trying to not post fake Greek names again:
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