Is it cruel to boil lobsters alive?

[forthegame]

Also, if you ever saw the cows being killed in the slaughter house,,,,you will probably never eat meat again. but when it is neatly packaged in the local Groceries,,,,it is yummy food. Are we hippocrates or what ?????:???:

what can i say, what possibly can i say ?!!!

This is why I love TT. PMSL!!!!

 

[GetBetterer]

Fedace:

Also, if you ever saw the cows being killed in the slaughter house,,,,you will probably never eat meat again.

Actually, I would get hungrier, I would want to eat the meat right off of the meat hook but knowing that it may carry parasites and other micro bacterial bad things I would cook it.

However, Lobsters:

a) Do not scream when boiled
b) Do not feel pain (study neurology or something related to the brain, please)
c) Age forever (so somebody's gotta kill'em)
d) Look like they don't care when boiled (they don't even move frantically)
e) Do not believe in any God(s) or Goddess(es) and therefore it is moral and okay to go Spanish Inquisition on these guys.

Problem solved, time to enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBloU7G3BU#t=1m08s

I mean come on, doesn't this lobster look angry?

 

[stanton warrior]

Fedace:


Actually, I would get hungrier, I would want to eat the meat right off of the meat hook but knowing that it may carry parasites and other micro bacterial bad things I would cook it.

However, Lobsters:

a) Do not scream when boiled
b) Do not feel pain (study neurology or something related to the brain, please)
c) Age forever (so somebody's gotta kill'em)
d) Look like they don't care when boiled (they don't even move frantically)
e) Do not believe in any God(s) or Goddess(es) and therefore it is moral and okay to go Spanish Inquisition on these guys.

Problem solved, time to enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBloU7G3BU#t=1m08s

I mean come on, doesn't this lobster look angry?

You have to elaborate on this one...

 

[sureshs]

what can i say, what possibly can i say ?!!!

He had the medical oath of Hippocrates at the back of his mind when he typed it up.

 

[sureshs]

^^ agreed about not getting into religion. Ack, sureshs asked about soul, and i know he was mildly "trolling" but i bit the bait. I was supposed to give him a humorous reply but failed.

No, it was not trolling. It was to stimulate you to think.

 

[Sentinel]

No, it was not trolling. It was to stimulate you to think.

I told you before I don't.

 

[li0scc0]

Are we hippocrates or what ?????:???:

Actually, no, I am not hippocrates. Although I do value that oath, I am not the Greek physician.

 

[li0scc0]

There's no such thing. Or it is an imaginary entity invented (i think) in the West, and now (possibly) adopted or seeped into eastern cultures. I am very clear that Indian culture that i am acquainted with, does not accept such an entity. It only accepts what is discoverable. But that's totally off topic.

Actually the soul, Nephesh in Hebrew, is an ancient concept that long pre-dates Western thought. However, it simply means the 'person', the entity in and of itself. Animals are Nephesh (soulish), humans are nephesh (soulish). Simply implies life.
What many people think of when they think of 'soul' is the concept of Spirit, but that is another concept outside the realm of this discussion.

 

[Sentinel]

Actually, no, I am not hippocrates. Although I do value that oath, I am not the Greek physician.

Hi, and i am not Socrates.

 

[forthegame]

Ferdachiiiiii!
The one and only.

 

[borg number one]

I think the Golden Rule (there are variations of it in many cultures) is interesting. One might think about the Golden Rule, then consider the question, who are the "others"? If the GR is to "do onto others as you have them do onto to you" in essence, then much depends on how each of us interprets the word "others".

Hindu Philosophy
This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Mahabharata 5,1517



Ancient Greece
The Golden Rule in its prohibitive form was a common principle in ancient Greek philosophy.

Examples of the general concept include:
"Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." – Pittacus[11] (c. 640–568 BCE)

"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." – Thales[12]

"What you do not want to happen to you, do not do it yourself either. " – Sextus the Pythagorean.[13]

The oldest extant reference to Sextus is by Origin in the third century of the common era.[14]

"Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others." – Isocrates[15]

"What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others." – Epictetus[16]

"It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly (agreeing 'neither to harm nor be harmed'[17]), and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life." – Epicurus[18]

"One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him." – Plato's Socrates (Crito, 49c) (c. 469 BC–399 BCE)

Ancient China
The Golden Rule existed among all the major philisophical schools of Ancient China: Mohism, Taoism, and Confucianism. Examples of the concept include:

"Zi Gong asked, saying, "Is there one word which may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?" The Master said, "Is not RECIPROCITY such a word?" – Confucius [19][20]

"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucius [21]

"If people regarded other people's families in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own family to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself." – Mozi

"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." –Laozi[22]

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." –Laozi[23

 

[sureshs]

Here's what I don't get.

Couldn't you figure out whether the lobster feels pain by putting it in shallow hot water and seeing whether it tries to escape?

Methinks it will try to escape. Which means it is feeling fear or pain or both.

This simple observation, if true, seems to negate all the "neuro anatomical" claims being put forward.

 

[ollinger]

No....animals and plants have tropic mechanisms that have nothing to do with pain. Plants grow towards the sun, nobody thinks they feel pain in the dark. Many fish seek out certain temperatures of water, no evidence that the wrong temperature causes pain.

 

[rdis10093]

why is there a post like this on tt

 

[sureshs]

No....animals and plants have tropic mechanisms that have nothing to do with pain. Plants grow towards the sun, nobody thinks they feel pain in the dark. Many fish seek out certain temperatures of water, no evidence that the wrong temperature causes pain.

Heliotropism and geotropism suddenly sprang to my mind from decades ago when we memorized them for biology.

 

[mucat]

People eat little lobsters, giant lobsters eat people. It is called the circle of life. Here, I have a proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX07j9SDFcc

 

[El Diablo]

Do any of the people here who are so preoccupied with lobster discomfort drive cars? You are smashing bugs and occasionally running over more substantial creatures. Couldn't you walk instead (carefully, of course, so as not to step on anyone)?

 

[Steady Eddy]

why is there a post like this on tt

"Post"?, or do you mean "thread"? It says 'Odds and Ends' Discuss topics that don't fit anywhere else.

This doesn't fit in anywhere else, except for 'Health and Fitness' maybe?

 

[sureshs]

"Post"?, or do you mean "thread"? It says 'Odds and Ends' Discuss topics that don't fit anywhere else.

This doesn't fit in anywhere else, except for 'Health and Fitness' maybe?

Not good for lobster's health and fitness hehehe

 

[Caloi]

I think the "fisherman" and packagers should quit rubber banding their claws. I bet lobster sales would go down quite a bit knowing your neighbor is missing a couple digits from their last lobster boil.

 

[GetBetterer]

stanton_warrior:

You have to elaborate on this one...

The Spanish Inquisition was a group of Catholic warriors who fought against those who did not believe in God. They went into Muslim territory amongst other vast parts of Europe. They're known for their destruction and cultural (not religious) spread into those lands.

suresh:

Not good for lobster's health and fitness hehehe

Cindysphinx:

Here's what I don't get.

Couldn't you figure out whether the lobster feels pain by putting it in shallow hot water and seeing whether it tries to escape?

Methinks it will try to escape. Which means it is feeling fear or pain or both.

Cindysphinx, undoing an entire branch of science with one test, if you can exclude the fact that lobsters walk (on the bottom of the sea floor, and prefer that place where there are lots of rocks to hide in), and that they live in water temperatures ranging from freezing cold to the perfect bath tub waters we bathe in.

El_Diablo:

Do any of the people here who are so preoccupied with lobster discomfort drive cars? You are smashing bugs and occasionally running over more substantial creatures. Couldn't you walk instead (carefully, of course, so as not to step on anyone)?

[sarcasm]
I drive an algae fueled bio-car, for your information the insects are putting themselves in my way and I'm saving the planet! One insect for many!

I also happen to support dams which are very green in the fact that they use water powered turbines to rotate generators, ignoring the fact that the dam drains water from other places destroying ecosystems.
[/sarcasm]

Sidenote: Please Keep Religion Out, this Thread is about a Tasty crustacean which nets the U.S. 1 billion annually.

 

[sureshs]

I have informed the lobster mods about this thread and they plan to take revenge on all of you by capturing you while you are out swimming and then boiling you in volcanic hot water from the sea bed.

 

[GetBetterer]

sureshs:

I have informed the lobster mods about this thread and they plan to take revenge on all of you by capturing you while you are out swimming and then boiling you in volcanic hot water from the sea bed.

Good try, but I've replaced the pain receptors of my brain with the pleasure ones.

Have I mentioned that I've been punching myself in the genitalia as we speak? Feels great.

 

[Fedace]

Fedace:


Actually, I would get hungrier, I would want to eat the meat right off of the meat hook but knowing that it may carry parasites and other micro bacterial bad things I would cook it.

However, Lobsters:

a) Do not scream when boiled
b) Do not feel pain (study neurology or something related to the brain, please)
c) Age forever (so somebody's gotta kill'em)
d) Look like they don't care when boiled (they don't even move frantically)
e) Do not believe in any God(s) or Goddess(es) and therefore it is moral and okay to go Spanish Inquisition on these guys.

Problem solved, time to enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBloU7G3BU#t=1m08s

I mean come on, doesn't this lobster look angry?

HOw do you know Lobsters don't feel pain and or Never AGE ?? This is first i heard of this ever...........

 

[sureshs]

Agreed. Never heard of immortal lobsters.

 

[GetBetterer]

Fedace:

HOw do you know Lobsters don't feel pain and or Never AGE ?? This is first i heard of this ever...........

Never age is relative. I'm just saying that because we've never found a lobster that's died from old age. They live long healthy (referring back to a joke from earlier) lives.

According to neurological studies they lack the receptors which receive pain and therefore, do not feel them. Unless you want to disprove an entire branch of science, feel free.

sureshs:

Agreed. Never heard of immortal lobsters.

Disagreed. Never heard of immoral people.

(Hopefully obvious sarcasm is obvious)

 

[sureshs]

You mean if you study a lobster in a lab for years together, it will never die? There are lobsters in aquariums which are protected from predators, so the answer should be well known.

 

[GetBetterer]

sureshs:

You mean if you study a lobster in a lab for years together, it will never die? There are lobsters in aquariums which are protected from predators, so the answer should be well known.

Answered above, but you should know that the lobster will outlive the scientist (unless boiled alive, ba dum tss).

 

[sureshs]

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/marine-life/400-pound-lobster1.htm

 

[GetBetterer]

k...so isn't that what I'm saying above?

 

[sureshs]

Yes very interesting. In another place I read the maximum lobster life is about 100 years. But I don't think it can be immortal. It just means we haven't studied it for that long.

 

[Dilettante]

Also, if you ever saw the cows being killed in the slaughter house,,,,you will probably never eat meat again. but when it is neatly packaged in the local Groceries,,,,it is yummy food. Are we hippocrates or what ?????:???:

I don't know how do they kill cows at the slaughterhouse, I guess it depends on the country/zone's legislation and control, but I'm fully aware that in order to eat a cow, you have to kill it first. And as I've said before, I'm not against killing animals for food.

I just said we have to look for the best and less cruel way of killing them. Not because that's the way it works in nature (animals don't care being cruel to others, in fact many predators use very cruel ways of killing preys) but because we are a moral species, unlike the rest of animal kingdom. We shouldn't get used to cruelty and we should try to avoid it any time it's possible.

 

[mucat]

I just said we have to look for the best and less cruel way of killing them. Not because that's the way it works in nature (animals don't care being cruel to others, in fact many predators use very cruel ways of killing preys) but because we are a moral species, unlike the rest of animal kingdom. We shouldn't get used to cruelty and we should try to avoid it any time it's possible.

Does not compute.

 

[Dilettante]

Does not compute.

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly as I'm not English native speaker. What was wrong in the sentence?

 

[mucat]

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly as I'm not English native speaker. What was wrong in the sentence?

Your english is fine, probably better than me. But we are moral species compare to other animals??? What moral things we do that animals don't?

 

[Dilettante]

Your english is fine, probably better than me. But we are moral species compare to other animals??? What moral things we do that animals don't?

For example, considering what would be the least cruel way to kill another animal to eat it. And even sometimes giving up eating animals and sticking to eat just vegetables for moral reasons even if animal food is easily available and more convenient.

Those are moral based decisions I've never seen in other animal species.

 

[GetBetterer]

Are we so much better than chickens? When was the last time you heard a chicken got shot from a drive-by shooting. When's the last time you heard a chicken came home from work and beat the s**t out his hen? Huh? Never. You know why? Because chickens are decent people.

 

[Dilettante]

Are we so much better than chickens?

We can be so much better than chickens, yes. That's why we are a moral species. Because we can take decisions based on abstract reasoning.

Our moral reasoning can end being right or wrong, but that's another question. Chickens can't make moral decisions. They can't be worst than they are, but they can't be better either.

We're the only true moral species around. Other animals not being moral doesn't mean animals always act worst than we do. It means other animals are not capable of a complex moral reasoning. I thought all of this was pretty obvious.

 

[mucat]

For example, considering what would be the least cruel way to kill another animal to eat it.

A lot of other animals kill their prey in the least cruel ways.

And even sometimes giving up eating animals and sticking to eat just vegetables for moral reasons even if animal food is easily available and more convenient.

Herbivores have been doing it for millions of years.

Those are moral based decisions I've never seen in other animal species.

Human as a species is very destructive compare to any other animals.

 

[Fedace]

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/marine-life/400-pound-lobster1.htm

Ok, so how do i get those encapsulated telomeres on my chromosomes ? How do i get 100 % of my chromosomes covered in that ? so i can outlive all you fools.

 

[Dilettante]

A lot of other animals kill their prey in the least cruel ways.

And a lot do it in the most cruel ways, so?

Didn't you read the word "considering" in my post? Other animals don't "consider" their ways of killing. They just kill in the ways they know, not as a result of a moral decision they are not able to take. We, on the other hand, can consider new forms of killing and its moral implications. We are moral, they are not.

Herbivores have been doing it for millions of years.

Not as a result of a moral decision. We are not herbivores, but we can decide to act ashervibores, as a result of a moral decision.

Don't tell me you think a cow eats grass as a result of a moral decision, for God's sake.

Let's be serious.

 

[mucat]

We can be so much better than chickens, yes. That's why we are a moral species. Because we can take decisions based on abstract reasoning.

Our moral reasoning can end being right or wrong, but that's another question. Chickens can't make moral decisions. They can't be worst than they are, but they can't be better either.

We're the only true moral species around. Other animals not being moral doesn't mean animals always act worst than we do. It means other animals are not capable of a complex moral reasoning. I thought all of this was pretty obvious.

They don't need complex moral reasoning aka "excuses" because they are not hypocritical. And BTW, chicken is morally delicious when it is fried right.

 

[Dilettante]

They don't need complex moral reasoning aka "excuses" because they are not hypocritical.

Ok, don't take it personal but I'm done with you. If you think "moral reasoning" is an equivalent of "excuse", we can't keep this discusion because we are at different levels.

 

[GetBetterer]

Fedace:

Ok, so how do i get those encapsulated telomeres on my chromosomes ? How do i get 100 % of my chromosomes covered in that ? so i can outlive all you fools.

For someone who was protecting lobsters, you seem quite selfish on this topic now that you may have found the secret to living eternally. But in all honesty, lrn2biochem.

 

[FedererBestTennis]

It sounds wierd, but the most humane way to kill and cook a lobster is this: Take a chef's knife, lay the tip of the knife directly on its head, puncture down, and come accross the head (basically splitting the brain open). Instantaneous death.

 

[mucat]

And a lot do it in the most cruel ways, so?

And so are we.

Didn't you read the word "considering" in my post? Other animals don't "consider" their ways of killing. They just kill in the ways they know, not as a result of a moral decision they are not able to take. We, on the other hand, can consider new forms of killing and its moral implications. We are moral, they are not.

They don't consider?? Bears sometimes don't eat people. Sharks usually don't eat people. How more considering you want?? Are you telling me bears don't think? On the other hand, we kill animals for fun all the time. I am not judging but I don't pretend we are high and mighty.

Not as a result of a moral decision. We are not herbivores, but we can decide to act ashervibores, as a result of a moral decision.

If we are not herbivores, why pretend??? Unless you are a treehugger living in a forest, you are harming the nature one way or the other.

Don't tell me you think a cow eats grass as a result of a moral decision, for God's sake.
Let's be serious.

First, I don't consider eating meat morally wrong and it is just silly. If it is, cows would be angels. And they are best when medium rare.

 

[GetBetterer]

FedererBestTennis:

It sounds wierd, but the most humane way to kill and cook a lobster is this: Take a chef's knife, lay the tip of the knife directly on its head, puncture down, and come accross the head (basically splitting the brain open). Instantaneous death.

I'm not a Biologist on Lobsters, but according to the Wikipedia for a book titled Consider the Lobster and Other Essays it says that lobsters have several ganglia (which as a Biochemist is logical) and so severing the head rarely, if at all, results in unconsciousness or death.

Basically you just poked a hole in it before you boil it so the water can seep into it's brain.

 

[mucat]

Ok, don't take it personal but I'm done with you. If you think "moral reasoning" is an equivalent of "excuse", we can't keep this discusion because we are at different levels.

if you need moral reasoning to decide whether to eat lobsters or not, we are definitely on a different level. For me, my concern is the current price and seasoning.

 

[mucat]

It sounds wierd, but the most humane way to kill and cook a lobster is this: Take a chef's knife, lay the tip of the knife directly on its head, puncture down, and come accross the head (basically splitting the brain open). Instantaneous death.

I have done it more than once. The head and the body still "struggle" for quiet a while before it is really "dead". I felt sorry every time.

 

[Fedace]

Fedace:


For someone who was protecting lobsters, you seem quite selfish on this topic now that you may have found the secret to living eternally. But in all honesty, lrn2biochem.

If i find the secrets of encapsulated chromosomes, do you think i will win the Novel prize ? or i could just sell it to the select clients ?