Is it fair to say that Roger Federer remains the Gold standard for Longevity at the highest level in Tennis ?

[GoatNo1]

You havent seen tennis before 2011 and thats why you feel Fed was weak IRL.

Federer was more dominant than anyone ever in Tennis in his peak years, he was like laureus sportsman of the year for like 4 straight years, that much dominant he was. He was the most dominant SPORTSMAN for 4 years (05-08), not just a tennis player. He was that big in his peak, unreal hold over Tennis he had.

yes, he was born in perfectly ATG vacuum! no ATGs born 5 years before OR after him! in 05-08 period nole and rafa was 17 to 22 years old and he was 23 to 27. he was the lion along the lambs. but then came godzilla and kong and lion was eaten alive! and that is fine for him. that is why he can still be in the same tier with rafa as he still has accomplished many great things. but nole played on another level and is on his own tier! nole was as dominant if not more, if we look at all 3 surfaces, from 2021 to 23, there he could play, and he was 33 to 36 vs 2 future ATGs who was 18 to 22. nole made CGS in 3 years while fed did non in 4 years from 05 to 08! and he could not play at USO22 there he had chance to make it 2 CGS!!

 

[Hitman]

3 slams seasons in your mid thirties is outrageous, egregious, preposterous.

3? Come on, he only had 2.

 

[mike danny]

The goalposts just never stop moving. You will destroy your own argument to somehow try to prove Federer had it tougher.

Because he still did considering how long had Djokodal after his prime was over. And considering Alcaraz is still losing to Djokovic, you can gardly say he’s playing at a higher level than 2019 Djokodal.

He didn't beat Alcaraz at RG, Cincy and ATP Finals or beat Sinner at Wimbledon and ATP Finals that year?

If cramping Alcaraz is an impressive victory, sure.

2023 Wimb Sinner was nowhere near the player he is now. Might as well hype up wins over pre-Womb 2003 Fed.

2017-2020 Thiem was a great player and beat both Djokovic and Nadal in big matches, but Djokovic's best opponent in those years was still Nadal.

Great is pushing it. He was good, but nowhere near as good as prime Djokovic.

And you’re actually making my point with Thiem. If even someone like him could trouble the greats, imagine an actual ATG player 6 years younger

 

[Razer]

yes, he was born in perfectly ATG vacuum! no ATGs born 5 years before OR after him! in 05-08 period nole and rafa was 17 to 22 years old and he was 23 to 27. he was the lion along the lambs. but then came godzilla and kong and lion was eaten alive! and that is fine for him. that is why he can still be in the same tier with rafa as he still has accomplished many great things. but nole played on another level and is on his own tier! nole was as dominant if not more, if we look at all 3 surfaces, from 2021 to 23, there he could play, and he was 33 to 36 vs 2 future ATGs who was 18 to 22. nole made CGS in 3 years while fed did non in 4 years from 05 to 08! and he could not play at USO22 there he had chance to make it 2 CGS!!

If what you say is true then why did the severely old and weak lion have matchpoints against prime Godzilla at Wimbledon 2019 ?

This means your Godzilla is overrated on Grass and peak to peak he would lose

Old lion also defeated your Kong (Nadal) at AO 2017, why what happened ? How did that happen ?

 

[GoatNo1]

If what you say is true then why did the severely old and weak lion have matchpoints against prime Godzilla at Wimbledon 2019 ?

This means your Godzilla is overrated on Grass and peak to peak he would lose

Old lion also defeated your Kong (Nadal) at AO 2017, why what happened ? How did that happen ?

when kong was just a little baby monkey he spanked lions as in his very peak years all the time. even godzilla when it was a little lizard spanked the lion.
W19 showed that lion was not just physically and game wise weaker to godzilla but ever mentally. godzilla could had luxury to have a very bad day but still spanked the lions ass. only by its mind strengths. and that is why that match do so much pain for lion and his fans. and it was the 3rd time godzilla did it to the lion so it is not coincidence!

at slams (finals):
godzilla - lion: 11-7 (4-1, 80%)
kong - lion: 10-4 (6-3)

 

[Razer]

when kong was just a little baby monkey he spanked lions as in his very peak years all the time. even godzilla when it was a little lizard spanked the lion.
W19 showed that lion was not just physically and game wise weaker to godzilla but ever mentally. godzilla could had luxury to have a very bad day but still spanked the lions ass. only by its mind strengths. and that is why that match do so much pain for lion and his fans. and it was the 3rd time godzilla did it to the lion so it is not coincidence!

at slams (finals):
godzilla - lion: 11-7 (4-1, 80%)
kong - lion: 10-4 (6-3)

Godzilla in his best year lost to 30 year old Lion at Lion's worst surface slam on clay
Godzilla even lost to Leopard (Wawrinka) at that same surface
Godzilla even lost to Puma (Murray) on Grass
Godzilla even lost to Deer (Thiem) on Clay.

How sad!!! Godzilla losing so much to weak animals ...

Godzilla got bageled by Lion at Cincinatti Open, embarrassing, isnt it ?

 

[GoatNo1]

Godzilla in his best year lost to 30 year old Lion at Lion's worst surface slam on clay
Godzilla even lost to Leopard (Wawrinka) at that same surface
Godzilla even lost to Puma (Murray) on Grass
Godzilla even lost to Deer (Thiem) on Clay.

How sad!!! Godzilla losing so much to weak animals ...

Godzilla got bageled by Lion at Cincinatti Open, embarrassing, isnt it ?

godzilla won most slams, WTFs, masters, YE#1s - that why it is the biggest monster and was the biggest monster in the universe longest of all.
godzilla has positive h2h vs all

lion is actually paper lion

 

[ghostofMecir]

If what you say is true then why did the severely old and weak lion have matchpoints against prime Godzilla at Wimbledon 2019 ?

This means your Godzilla is overrated on Grass and peak to peak he would lose

Old lion also defeated your Kong (Nadal) at AO 2017, why what happened ? How did that happen ?

^

 

[NoleFam]

What other people say about 2014-2016 has nothing to do with me, so I don’t know what’s the point of mentioning this. Federer turned 30 in 2011 during the peak of the big 4 years, so there’s much more than to his 30’s competition than 2014-2016. Do you acknowledge that Federer’s 30’s competition was the most difficult in the past 30 years or not? Difficulty of competition is also relative. 2014-2016 is harder for Federer than for Djokovic because he has to go through peak Djokovic.

I didn’t come to any conclusion at all. Read my post again - I said their age 38 years support that the difference in level wasn’t that big, and I don’t see why this is such a controversial opinion. We need to separate level of play from achievements as best as we can precisely because the competition was so different. Federer didn’t have the luxury of facing players the caliber of Ruud, Anderson, Kyrgios and Berrettini in slam finals in his 30’s. Federer’s weakest final opponent from 2011 onwards was Cilic, a league above all those guys. You really think Federer wouldn’t have beaten those guys? I didn’t argue against Djokovic being better day in day out, and I’ve said that multiple times.

All I'm saying is you're the 1st Federer fan I've seen on here who would describe 2014-2016 as strong. You said 31-35, not 30 so I'm excluding 2011, which would mean August 2012-August 2017. Also, let's be a little more specific. Out of all the ATGs, do I think he faced the strongest competition in his 30s in the last 30 years? Yes, sure. Djokovic can't play himself so I don't see the reason you included that last sentence.

Well that would be assuming that they played at the same level at 38 that they did all throughout their 30s when we all know they didn't. Also, the only reason you would say we need to separate achievements from level of play is because the difference is massive as far as big titles (Slams). You bring up Ruud and Anderson in finals as if Djokovic didn't have to beat Alcaraz and had a war with Nadal in the SF before Anderson. Cilic was terrible in the 2017 Wimbledon final and I know you don't think that was a tougher title than 2018 Wimbledon.

The bottom line is, Djokovic beat and dealt with players he was supposed to beat at 31-35 in Slams better than Federer did. If we look at Federer's losses to players ranked below him in those years, we have Berdych, Murray, Tsonga, Stakhovsky, Robredo, Gulbis, Cilic, Seppi, Wawrinka and Raonic for a total of 10 losses. Djokovic had losses to Cecchinato, Thiem, Wawrinka, Nadal, Medvedev, and Nadal for a total of 6 losses. Do you not see the discrepancy in the caliber of players? That's the main difference between the two and a big reason why there is massive 7 Slam differential between them at those ages.

 

[NoleFam]

Because he still did considering how long had Djokodal after his prime was over. And considering Alcaraz is still losing to Djokovic, you can gardly say he’s playing at a higher level than 2019 Djokodal.

If cramping Alcaraz is an impressive victory, sure.

2023 Wimb Sinner was nowhere near the player he is now. Might as well hype up wins over pre-Womb 2003 Fed.

Great is pushing it. He was good, but nowhere near as good as prime Djokovic.

And you’re actually making my point with Thiem. If even someone like him could trouble the greats, imagine an actual ATG player 6 years younger

You still killed your own argument. You can't say they're far declined and winning only because there are no younger ATGs and then in the same breath say a guy 10 years younger, who is a younger ATG, isn't all that great and worse than them at 32 and 33. How many Wimbledons did Nadal win at 32 and 33 again?

You said he didn't do it, not whether the wins were impressive or not. Also, it was around Wimbledon when Sinner took his game to the next level and won Canada right after that, and two more tournaments in the fall.

2017-2020 Thiem was 13-11 against the big 3. Only in ttw world does he not qualify as being a great player, but a lot of the time ttw world isn't based on reality.

6 years younger is nowhere near as big of a difference as 16 years younger, which is the main point.

 

[messiahrobins]

fed had ALWAYS negative h2h vs rafa (7-13 in his own era), had negative h2h vs muzza (4-6 in his own era) up to cinci14 (when he wos 33) and vs nole since AO16! he actually IMPROVED massively his h2h vs rafa from 2015 (after he was 34) and muzza from 2009 (he was 28). in both cases after his era (peak, prime what even you want) and when he already, according to his fans, got old! he got worse ONLY vs nole. and nole who got much better vs all AND he, muzza and rafa are PEERS!!! nole had positive h2h in BOTH his eras vs ALL players that he played more than few times! if nole get negative h2h vs sinner and raz it will happen after he got 38 at least and vs players that are 15-16 years younger than him. and one of them was failed twice to doping and was very favorable treated by establishment just for play at all!

Djokovics h2h is woeful v Nadal when both peak at the same time. Remove 2015/2016 and basically Nadal was an awful match up for Novak.
Federer post 2009 was a shadow of his best because he had dominated the sport for 5 consecutive years with only Nadal towards the end of those 5 years becoming a rival on equal terms. The problem is after such dominance against your peers (i.e same age group of players) motivation wanes and also there is mental fatigue from being no.1 for so long. Nike did a great job creating the Fedal rivalry, it was marketing genius. In truth though they were slightly different eras, and Nadal took the baton from Federer up to 2015 at which point Djokovic and Murray took it from Nadal before Murray got injured leaving Djokovic alone to rack up slams when all his rivals were past their best due to injury or old. That is just facts that cannot be argued against. Sinner and Alcaraz have now taken the baton on from Djokovic.

 

[ollinger]

Such an odd thread to post when there was a Ken Rosewall who reached consecutive slam finals months shy of turning 40 years old

 

[GoatNo1]

Djokovics h2h is woeful v Nadal when both peak at the same time. Remove 2015/2016 and basically Nadal was an awful match up for Novak.
Federer post 2009 was a shadow of his best because he had dominated the sport for 5 consecutive years with only Nadal towards the end of those 5 years becoming a rival on equal terms. The problem is after such dominance against your peers (i.e same age group of players) motivation wanes and also there is mental fatigue from being no.1 for so long. Nike did a great job creating the Fedal rivalry, it was marketing genius. In truth though they were slightly different eras, and Nadal took the baton from Federer up to 2015 at which point Djokovic and Murray took it from Nadal before Murray got injured leaving Djokovic alone to rack up slams when all his rivals were past their best due to injury or old. That is just facts that cannot be argued against. Sinner and Alcaraz have now taken the baton on from Djokovic.

rafas best season was 2010. rafas next best season was 2013! rafas greatest season , IF not for nole, would be 2011!!!! in the middle of rafas highest peak (10-13), from IW11 to AO12, nole won 7!!!!! big finals on ALL surfaces vs rafa: IW, miami, madrid, rome, W, USO, AO, for perfect 7-0!!! noles first era was also 11-RG16 so in period 11-13 both players was in their highest peaks!

both peaks: 2011-2013	no1e	rafa
h2h	10 (62,5%)	6 (37,5%)
finals h2h	10 (71,4%)	4 (28,6%) - 3 on clay + USO
slams won	5 (3AO, W, USO)	4 (3RG, USO)
slams F	9 (3AO, RG, 2W, 3USO)	7 (AO, 3RG, W, 2USO)
WTFs	2	0
masters	11 ; 8/9 (IW, 2 miami, MC, madrid, rome, 2 can, 2 shang, paris)	8 ; 6/9 (IW, 2 MC, madrid, 2 rome, can, cinci)
titles	23 (18 HC, 4CC, 1GC)	17 (4 HC, 13CC)
W%	219-27 = 89%	186-28 = 83%
YE#1	2	1
ITF champion	3	0

no1e rafa (11-13) h2h by tournaments:

AO: 1-0
RG: 0-2
W: 1-0
USO: 1-1
WTF: 1-0
IW: 1-0
miami: 1-0
MC: 1-1
rome: 1-1
madrid: 1-0
canada: 0-1
beijing: 1-0

HC: 6-2
CC: 3-4
GC: 1-0

 

[Rosstour]

Djokovics h2h is woeful v Nadal when both peak at the same time. Remove 2015/2016 and basically Nadal was an awful match up for Novak.
Federer post 2009 was a shadow of his best because he had dominated the sport for 5 consecutive years with only Nadal towards the end of those 5 years becoming a rival on equal terms. The problem is after such dominance against your peers (i.e same age group of players) motivation wanes and also there is mental fatigue from being no.1 for so long. Nike did a great job creating the Fedal rivalry, it was marketing genius. In truth though they were slightly different eras, and Nadal took the baton from Federer up to 2015 at which point Djokovic and Murray took it from Nadal before Murray got injured leaving Djokovic alone to rack up slams when all his rivals were past their best due to injury or old. That is just facts that cannot be argued against. Sinner and Alcaraz have now taken the baton on from Djokovic.

Uhh Djoko made Nadal his pigeon everywhere off clay after 2013 sir. Not a set won on HC for Nadal.

Then after 2014 he never beat Fed off clay again either.

Fed's level didn't change as much as we think. Nadal's dropped big time and Djoko's went up.

 

[Biotic]

If cramping Alcaraz is an impressive victory, sure.

2023 Wimb Sinner was nowhere near the player he is now. Might as well hype up wins over pre-Womb 2003 Fed.

Alcaraz lasted about as much as 07 Djoko did at 07 Wimbledon SF, 07 USO F and many more pre 2011 matches vs fedal or many others much worse that 2023 Djoko.

07-10 Djoko being nowhere near the player he was later, never stopped you from hyping him to give some much needed boost to the competition because if you don't we're 100% back to the lame 2006 field or even worse.

 

[NatF]

Alcaraz lasted about as much as 07 Djoko did at 07 Wimbledon SF, 07 USO F and many more pre 2011 matches vs fedal or many others much worse that 2023 Djoko.

07-10 Djoko being nowhere near the player he was later, never stopped you from hyping him to give some much needed boost to the competition because if you don't we're 100% back to the lame 2006 field or even worse.

LOL

 

[RS]

Biotic always delivers.

 

[NatF]

Biotic always delivers.

Indeed, he's great at peddling crap. One of the best.

 

[Biotic]

Biotic always delivers.

I retract what i said earlier. Alcaraz cramped after 2.5 hours, Djokovic brain cramped after less than an hour in 07 USO. Yeah, it was that bad, and would raise eyebrows in any era, but obviously not in the 03-07 era.

 

[RS]

I retract what i said earlier. Alcaraz cramped after 2.5 hours, Djokovic brain cramped after less than an hour in 07 USO. Yeah, it was that bad, and would raise eyebrows in any era, but obviously not in the 03-07 era.

Outside maybe AO 08 which I assume you rate do you rate anything Djokovic did pre 2011?

 

[Biotic]

Outside maybe AO 08 which I assume you rate do you rate anything Djokovic did pre 2011?

I rate. I very rate.

 

[RS]

I rate. I very rate.

I can assume that's a no.

 

[messiahrobins]

Uhh Djoko made Nadal his pigeon everywhere off clay after 2013 sir. Not a set won on HC for Nadal.

Then after 2014 he never beat Fed off clay again either.

Fed's level didn't change as much as we think. Nadal's dropped big time and Djoko's went up.

This stat post 2013 is hilarious that Djokovic fans cling to . They played twice off clay in 10 years post 2013. One was a shellacking when Djokovic did goat in his house (i was there and it was the best he ever played in my view outside 2011) and the other a 5 set thriller indoors at W.
Most of these off clay encounters were 2015/2016 when everyone was beating Nadal when he was out of form and not fit.
As for Federer, every Nadal fan as well as Nadal himself knew once Rafa's legs went (which the did post 2014) Federer would be a problem for him. Nadal is very clear about this. Federer , in Rafa's view, is the best player he ever played and the only guy who when on form could beat Rafa at his best off clay, he has alluded to that a few times. Even on clay Rafa feared Federer at his best, the only player he really feared on clay when he was playing well.
Nadal's best years were 2007-2014. In that time he ruled tennis at slam level.:
Nadal 12
Federer 8
Djokovic 7.
Make of that what you will. Federer obviously was declining post 2010 due to his back issues. Djokovic is one year younger than Nadal so we can forgive his 2007 being inconsistent, but in 2008 he won AO thrashing Federer in the process. I am a bit puzzled why Djokovic fans hang on to 2015/2016 as some sort of major example of Djokovic being superior to Nadal yet seem to airbrush pre 2011 out of existence, it seems a bit too convenient to remove half of Nadal's peak years from the story and all of Federer's best years!!

 

[messiahrobins]

rafas best season was 2010. rafas next best season was 2013! rafas greatest season , IF not for nole, would be 2011!!!! in the middle of rafas highest peak (10-13), from IW11 to AO12, nole won 7!!!!! big finals on ALL surfaces vs rafa: IW, miami, madrid, rome, W, USO, AO, for perfect 7-0!!! noles first era was also 11-RG16 so in period 11-13 both players was in their highest peaks!

both peaks: 2011-2013	no1e	rafa
h2h	10 (62,5%)	6 (37,5%)
finals h2h	10 (71,4%)	4 (28,6%) - 3 on clay + USO
slams won	5 (3AO, W, USO)	4 (3RG, USO)
slams F	9 (3AO, RG, 2W, 3USO)	7 (AO, 3RG, W, 2USO)
WTFs	2	0
masters	11 ; 8/9 (IW, 2 miami, MC, madrid, rome, 2 can, 2 shang, paris)	8 ; 6/9 (IW, 2 MC, madrid, 2 rome, can, cinci)
titles	23 (18 HC, 4CC, 1GC)	17 (4 HC, 13CC)
W%	219-27 = 89%	186-28 = 83%
YE#1	2	1
ITF champion	3	0

no1e rafa (11-13) h2h by tournaments:

AO: 1-0
RG: 0-2
W: 1-0
USO: 1-1
WTF: 1-0
IW: 1-0
miami: 1-0
MC: 1-1
rome: 1-1
madrid: 1-0
canada: 0-1
beijing: 1-0

HC: 6-2
CC: 3-4
GC: 1-0

Why is Nadal's best season 2008 and 2010 excluded lmao.
2011 Nadal was nowhere near the player of 2010 and 2008, not even close. If in doubt i suggest you go to youtube and watch Nadal matches in 2008 2010 2011. Nadal 2013 seems better than it was as by then Federer was out of the picture and way past his best. No way Nadal wins Cincinatti for example if Federer was playing like he did even in 2010. As for Djokovic he was playing exactly the same in 2008 as he was in 2013, in fact he hit a bigger ball in 2008. Watch the AO and Olympics in 2008. You cannot airbrush pre-2011.
If you want a proper Big 3 comparison 2007-2014 is as close to a comparator of the 3 close to their peaks at same time as you can get, albeit Federer is harshly done by.

 

[Razer]

Such an odd thread to post when there was a Ken Rosewall who reached consecutive slam finals months shy of turning 40 years old

Today the level of Tennis has gone up a lot compared to what it was 50 years during Rosewall's time.

Federer at age 38 played much higher level tennis than Rosewall ever did in his 30s.

 

[GoatNo1]

Why is Nadal's best season 2008 and 2010 excluded lmao.
2011 Nadal was nowhere near the player of 2010 and 2008, not even close. If in doubt i suggest you go to youtube and watch Nadal matches in 2008 2010 2011. Nadal 2013 seems better than it was as by then Federer was out of the picture and way past his best. No way Nadal wins Cincinatti for example if Federer was playing like he did even in 2010. As for Djokovic he was playing exactly the same in 2008 as he was in 2013, in fact he hit a bigger ball in 2008. Watch the AO and Olympics in 2008. You cannot airbrush pre-2011.
If you want a proper Big 3 comparison 2007-2014 is as close to a comparator of the 3 close to their peaks at same time as you can get, albeit Federer is harshly done by.

becouse you said WHEN BOTH PLAYERS WAS ON THEIR PEAKS. rafas greatest sseason was 2010 and 2013 was 2nd greatest. 2011 would be his greatst if not for nole. noles first era was 11-RG16. so period that both players was in their peaks are 11-13. nole was wery far from his peak in 2008 and 2010. if you wobt to inklude 08 and 10 then inklude 2015 and 2021 and 2023. you said that peak vs peak rafa is very much superior to nole but actually it is completely oposite! rafas fan usually says that rafas efa (actually he never had an era) was 08-13, end even in his own era he had only 16-15 h2h vs nole! in noles era1 (11-RG16) it was 19-7 to nole. 11-13 is the period that including both eras, second part of rafas 08-13 and the first part of noles 11-RG16!

 

[thrust]

Djokovics h2h is woeful v Nadal when both peak at the same time. Remove 2015/2016 and basically Nadal was an awful match up for Novak.
Federer post 2009 was a shadow of his best because he had dominated the sport for 5 consecutive years with only Nadal towards the end of those 5 years becoming a rival on equal terms. The problem is after such dominance against your peers (i.e same age group of players) motivation wanes and also there is mental fatigue from being no.1 for so long. Nike did a great job creating the Fedal rivalry, it was marketing genius. In truth though they were slightly different eras, and Nadal took the baton from Federer up to 2015 at which point Djokovic and Murray took it from Nadal before Murray got injured leaving Djokovic alone to rack up slams when all his rivals were past their best due to injury or old. That is just facts that cannot be argued against. Sinner and Alcaraz have now tDTaken the baton on from Djokovic.

Today the level of Tennis has gone up a lot compared to what it was 50 years during Rosewall's time.

Federer at age 38 played much higher level tennis than Rosewall ever did in his 30s.

Rosewall was good enough in his mid-late thirties to win tournaments against the best players of his era. Between the ages of 33-40 he won 40 tournaments, reached 8 slam finals winning 4 of them, as well as 2 WCT finals. Players should only be judged by the era they played in, as equipment, playing conditions, medicine etc. change over time. As for the Big 3, the fact IS that Novak leads the other two in just about every important accomplishment of his era. Making excuses for Rafa and Roger for being behind Novak is just juvenile wishful thinking of denial of reality.

 

[Razer]

Rosewall was good enough in his mid-late thirties to win tournaments against the best players of his era. Between the ages of 33-40 he won 40 tournaments, reached 8 slam finals winning 4 of them, as well as 2 WCT finals. Players should only be judged by the era they played in, as equipment, playing conditions, medicine etc. change over time. As for the Big 3, the fact IS that Novak leads the other two in just about every important accomplishment of his era. Making excuses for Rafa and Roger for being behind Novak is just juvenile wishful thinking of denial of reality.

100m sprinters run quicker now than 50 years ago

Federer and Djokovic also played at a higher level than Rosewall... He won in old age, commendable but levelwise Roger played the highest level ever for 38 years old as on 2025.

 

[messiahrobins]

Rosewall was good enough in his mid-late thirties to win tournaments against the best players of his era. Between the ages of 33-40 he won 40 tournaments, reached 8 slam finals winning 4 of them, as well as 2 WCT finals. Players should only be judged by the era they played in, as equipment, playing conditions, medicine etc. change over time. As for the Big 3, the fact IS that Novak leads the other two in just about every important accomplishment of his era. Making excuses for Rafa and Roger for being behind Novak is just juvenile wishful thinking of denial of reality.

Why did Djokovic only win most of his slams post peak Fedal then? What was he doing up to 2015?

 

[messiahrobins]

becouse you said WHEN BOTH PLAYERS WAS ON THEIR PEAKS. rafas greatest sseason was 2010 and 2013 was 2nd greatest. 2011 would be his greatst if not for nole. noles first era was 11-RG16. so period that both players was in their peaks are 11-13. nole was wery far from his peak in 2008 and 2010. if you wobt to inklude 08 and 10 then inklude 2015 and 2021 and 2023. you said that peak vs peak rafa is very much superior to nole but actually it is completely oposite! rafas fan usually says that rafas efa (actually he never had an era) was 08-13, end even in his own era he had only 16-15 h2h vs nole! in noles era1 (11-RG16) it was 19-7 to nole. 11-13 is the period that including both eras, second part of rafas 08-13 and the first part of noles 11-RG16!

Djokovicwon a slam in 2008, reached RG SF, Queens final and Olympics Semi and won Canada...he was peak. Off form maybe 2009 and 2010, but he was peak. Just not as good at his best as Fedal bar 2011, his best year by a distance.
I could say Nadal wasnt peak in 2009, but that is patently absurd as he was at his peak but got injured. post 2014 he clearly was never the same again as a player. Ive seen him live hundreds of times since 2003 right up to Olympics 2024. So i am qualified to judge when Nadal's peak years were. I have seen Djokovic live 2007-2022 so again i can say when he was at his peak. Djokovic post 2016 was never the same again bar AO 2019 when he rolled back the years, like Federer did at IW 2017. Great champions have moments in later years when they can briefly pull out a few performances from their glory days. Doesnt mean they are peak though.

 

[No_Kwan_Do]

If Federer was physically in decent condition, he'd still be playing now and probably a top 30-50 player. Even at 43, he still talks like he really misses the sport.

 

[tennito]

Djokovicwon a slam in 2008, reached RG SF, Queens final and Olympics Semi and won Canada...he was peak. Off form maybe 2009 and 2010, but he was peak. Just not as good at his best as Fedal bar 2011, his best year by a distance.
I could say Nadal wasnt peak in 2009, but that is patently absurd as he was at his peak but got injured. post 2014 he clearly was never the same again as a player. Ive seen him live hundreds of times since 2003 right up to Olympics 2024. So i am qualified to judge when Nadal's peak years were. I have seen Djokovic live 2007-2022 so again i can say when he was at his peak. Djokovic post 2016 was never the same again bar AO 2019 when he rolled back the years, like Federer did at IW 2017. Great champions have moments in later years when they can briefly pull out a few performances from their glory days. Doesnt mean they are peak though.

Precisely. The difference is, Djokovic didn't have a 24 year old Djokovic (let alone 25 year old Nadal and 24 year old Murray) emerge in 2016/2017.

Take any ATG athlete in any sport from 24-30. Run their level against their level from 30-36. It's rarely pretty, even for athletes who were still at the top of their sport in their early 30s (Messi, Ronaldo, Lebron etc).

 

[messiahrobins]

Precisely. The difference is, Djokovic didn't have a 24 year old Djokovic (let alone 25 year old Nadal and 24 year old Murray) emerge in 2016/2017.

Take any ATG athlete in any sport from 24-30. Run their level against their level from 30-36. It's rarely pretty, even for athletes who were still at the top of their sport in their early 30s (Messi, Ronaldo, Lebron etc).

Exactly this

 

[TMF]

so fed won 60% of slams in that period!

from W18 to USO23 nole won 12 out of 19 slams he was allowed to play, that is 63,2%! W20 was canceled, he was politically deported from AO22 and banned from USO22. he was a big favorit at all 3 of them. and he was DQ from USO20 that i count with and he would be big favorit even there if not for DQ. and more so, despite all that nole won 2 CGS in that period while fed won only 1 (but never won vs rafa)!

LOL. From 2004 AO to 2007 USO Federer won 11 out of 20 slams, that's 69% !
Being disqualify/deported was at his stupid choice of actions, and that's his fault. Nice try.

Anyway, I was talking about Federer peak+prime time frame, and his incredible concentrated dominant and unparalleled level of play was second to none. Of his 15/25 slams run, the 10 slams that he didn't win he lost to the eventual winners(6 finals, 3 semi, 1 3R) except 2004 FO. You completely ignore the rest of my post because you know there's no player including your boy can come close to these crazy streaks:

Of his 25 total slam appearances, he:
reaches 10 consecutive slam finals
reaches 4 finals in a season 3 times
won 3 out of 4 slams in a season 3 times
reaches 18 out of 19 slam finals
reaches 24 out of 25 slam semifinals
owns 5 slam titles at 3 different venue

He won 51 single titles


No matter how you want to defend your beloved Djokovic, his concentrated dominance was WAY less awe-inspiring than Federer. Also everyone agree that dominant at peak/prime career is more impressive than in his/her old 30s, and that's what old Djokovic did it in a very weak CIE.

 

[GoatNo1]

LOL. From 2004 AO to 2007 USO Federer won 11 out of 20 slams, that's 69% !
Being disqualify/deported was at his stupid choice of actions, and that's his fault. Nice try.

Anyway, I was talking about Federer peak+prime time frame, and his incredible concentrated dominant and unparalleled level of play was second to none. Of his 15/25 slams run, the 10 slams that he didn't win he lost to the eventual winners(6 finals, 3 semi, 1 3R) except 2004 FO. You completely ignore the rest of my post because you know there's no player including your boy can come close to these crazy streaks:

Of his 25 total slam appearances, he:
reaches 10 consecutive slam finals
reaches 4 finals in a season 3 times
won 3 out of 4 slams in a season 3 times
reaches 18 out of 19 slam finals
reaches 24 out of 25 slam semifinals
owns 5 slam titles at 3 different venue

He won 51 single titles


No matter how you want to defend your beloved Djokovic, his concentrated dominance was WAY less awe-inspiring than Federer. Also everyone agree that dominant at peak/prime career is more impressive than in his/her old 30s, and that's what old Djokovic did it in a very weak CIE.

all that just to be surpassed in all main criteria and retire without any main record! not even domination. nole had highest peak and was most dominant player. he had highest ATP score, nole-slam, best year and 2 years period and decade and career. is in the top3 greatest on ALL 3 surfaces. has 10, 3, 7, 4 slam titles and 10, 7, 10, 10 finals (vs feds 6, 1, 8, 5 titles and 7, 5, 12, 7 finals) and is in top3 in W% at all 4 slams. and all that despite W20 cancelation, USO20 DQ, AO22 deportation and USO22 ban!

 

[TMF]

Well what you believe is mostly nonsense, like Federer being greater than Djokovic.

As a die-hard Djokovic fan I can understand you disagree.

Djokovic was the best player in the world for 12 years and no one else in the modern era can say that. That's a long period of "vulturing". Of course when you dominate that long you will end up smashing all the records, but keep believing it's because of "vulturing" as if he didn't win virtually all the head to head records against his rivals.

His stats was better in his 30s than in his peak/prime 20s say a lot about how weak the competition during the career and hyperinflation era.
Djokovic didn't get better, but the NextGen mugs and the rest of the 90s born players were downright pathetic. By winning only 2 slams, it's the reason why the big 3 vultured 23 slams total(with younger Djokovic benefitted the most with 12)

 

[TMF]

Didn’t you say not long ago there is no such thing as GOAT ?

I said there's no such thing as an 'undisputed' GOAT. Big difference.
Only some Djoko fanboys believe such nonsense

 

[Razer]

I said there's no such thing as an 'undisputed' GOAT. Big difference.
Only some Djoko fanboys believe such nonsense

The leader of Tennis is often called as the GOAT, that means the guy who holds the pivotal records. It is not wrong to give Djokovic that honor since Federer was given that in the 2000s and 2010s when he had the numbers over Peter Sampras.

all that just to be surpassed in all main criteria and retire without any main record! not even domination. nole had highest peak and was most dominant player. he had highest ATP score, nole-slam, best year and 2 years period and decade and career. is in the top3 greatest on ALL 3 surfaces. has 10, 3, 7, 4 slam titles and 10, 7, 10, 10 finals (vs feds 6, 1, 8, 5 titles and 7, 5, 12, 7 finals) and is in top3 in W% at all 4 slams. and all that despite W20 cancelation, USO20 DQ, AO22 deportation and USO22 ban!

Djokovic's 2015 is not even his own peak (rem Wawrinka of all people defeated him in 2015 in a grand slam final), the real peak of Djokovic was 2011.

 

[TMF]

all that just to be surpassed in all main criteria and retire without any main record! not even domination. nole had highest peak and was most dominant player. he had highest ATP score, nole-slam, best year and 2 years period and decade and career. is in the top3 greatest on ALL 3 surfaces. has 10, 3, 7, 4 slam titles and 10, 7, 10, 10 finals (vs feds 6, 1, 8, 5 titles and 7, 5, 12, 7 finals) and is in top3 in W% at all 4 slams. and all that despite W20 cancelation, USO20 DQ, AO22 deportation and USO22 ban!

You basically listed his entire career achievements. My initial point was about the player's peak/prime time frame.
The ban and deportation are reeks with desperation. And there's no certain that he would have won had he participated in those slam events. Let's be clear here....he was the heavy favorite to win the 2016 USO against Wawrinka, 2019 FO against Thiem, 2019 USO against Popyrin-D), 2020 USO against Medvedev. He lost all of them !

Federer's longevity is without the doubt was more impressive than Djokovic and it's one of the reason why he's better and greater than Djokovic.


At their respective peak/prime, Federer was on another level. Hence why he's my GOAT

The most dominant tennis player in his respective era is Roger Federer.
From 2004 AO - 2010 AO, prime/peak Federer amazes us by winning a staggering 15 out of 25 slams !

Of his 25 total slam appearances, he:
reaches 10 consecutive slam finals
reaches 4 finals in a season 3 times
won 3 out of 4 slams in a season 3 times
reaches 18 out of 19 slam finals
reaches 24 out of 25 slam semifinals
owns 5 slam titles at 3 different venue

He won 51 single titles

He accumulated 266 weeks at the top of the ATP rankings including an astonishing 237 consecutive weeks.
5 out of 6 years he ended the YE #1.

 

[GoatNo1]

As a die-hard Djokovic fan I can understand you disagree.


His stats was better in his 30s than in his peak/prime 20s say a lot about how weak the competition during the career and hyperinflation era.
Djokovic didn't get better, but the NextGen mugs and the rest of the 90s born players were downright pathetic. By winning only 2 slams, it's the reason why the big 3 vultured 23 slams total(with younger Djokovic benefitted the most with 12)

and how many slams vultured big3 before 08? when rafa played great only on clay and nole was far away from his best as well as muza, wawa, potro. nole was clearly the best player in the golden age of tennis and big4 era which coincided with noles firs era (11-16). feds 03-07 was weaker and less competitive than noles 18-23 and he had not obstacle like slam cancellations, DQ, deportations, bans, frozen no1 rankings and slam without possibility to gain or protect points.

 

[Lauren_Girl']

HUGELY debatable.

At the end of the day, Djokovic's 2023 season if FAR superior than Federer's 2017.
3 grand Slams + 1 final, WTF, YE-#1. Federer's 2017 was great but not in the same standards. He skipped RG and lost to Delpotro in USO and Goffin in the WTF.
This is not debatable IMO. 3 Slams + 1 final + 1 WTF > 2 Slams.

Djokovic won the Olympics on his worst surface at 37 (without dropping a set), beating the world number #1 in the final.
What did Federer win after his 37th birthday? A Masters1000? Not exactly comparable to an Olympic title.

Djokovic remains the
oldest French Open champion (arguably the toughest Slam to win for old players).
oldest US Open champion
oldest Olympic Games champion
oldest WTF champion
oldest YE-#1.

FURTHERMORE , ''Longevity'' also implies being great young/early. Not the case for Federer. He was almost 22 when he won his 1st Slam.
Djokovic was 20, Nadal was 19.
Federer was an average player in 2001-2002. Not as good as Djokovic in 2007-2008.

Your arguments number 3, 4 and 5 aren't as pertinent, imo.
03. Meaningless titles in 250/500. No offense to these small tournaments but winning Basel or Milan doesn't mean much. And Djokovic can still beat this record if he wins 1 title, that may be a 250... I think he will, to be honest. 250 Belgrade in Indoor may be a good opportunity.
04. Federer didn't win Wimbledon 2019 so?? "Almost" doesn't count here. He lost, period.
05. Also unsignificant, since Federer racked up so many match wins in 250 and 500. if Djokovic cared about this record, he'd have played a lot more 250 in his career.

PS I DID NOT read the responses in the thread before posting this comment so sorry if I'm repeating arguments.

 

[NoleFam]

As a die-hard Djokovic fan I can understand you disagree.


His stats was better in his 30s than in his peak/prime 20s say a lot about how weak the competition during the career and hyperinflation era.
Djokovic didn't get better, but the NextGen mugs and the rest of the 90s born players were downright pathetic. By winning only 2 slams, it's the reason why the big 3 vultured 23 slams total(with younger Djokovic benefitted the most with 12)

Even if I weren't a Djokovic fan, Federer still isn't greater than him.

This is incorrect and no they weren't.

win percentage
2011-2016 <> 427-50 <> 89.52%
2018-2023 <> 303-48 <> 86.32%

win percentage against top 10
2011-2016 <> 140-34 <> 80.46%
2018-2023 <> 75-25 <> 75%

win percentage against the top 5
2011-2016 <> 66-25 <> 72.53%
2018-2023 <> 37-17 <> 68.52%

Djokovic was still great in his 30s but obviously not as good at his peak level, and his numbers at his peak dwarf those in his 30s. Yes the competition in his 30s was weaker but he was even more dominant over stronger competition in his 20s. I like how you and others try to pretend Federer didn't enjoy his own weak competition except his happened in his 20s.

 

[Razer]

At the end of the day, Djokovic's 2023 season if FAR superior than Federer's 2017.

No it was not superior, let alone FAR superior.

Federer won AO 2017 beating 4 top 10 ranked players while Djokovic won slams in 2023 beating absolute mugs.

 

[Zeref123]

If somebody didnt, I want to mention Jimmy Connors. This guy reached USO SF at 39 yo in 1991 as a WC, played a 4 set-match against Ivan lendl at 40 yo the following year. I think that, longevity-wise, Federer ~ Connors > Djokovic (Djokovic worse than both but not by huge margin IMO). Also, trying to explain why Connors is relative to Federer, he was competitive until 35-36 yo against ATG like borg, mcenroe (who got beaten by a nearly 30 yo Connors in 1982 wimbledon, which at the time was retirement age), lendl, edberg, wilander all of this in the 80s-early 90s, where retirement age was 30-32 yo and no technological progress that Federer had.
So he might be the Gold standard for longevity as well as Federer.

 

[Holmes]

One has to wonder if the worship of Federer will ever end

 

[thrust]

ISuch an odd thread to post when there was a Ken Rosewall who reached consecutive slam finals months shy of turning 40 years old

It sees that, for most here, the open era began in 1980, or later.

 

[NonP]

Today the level of Tennis has gone up a lot compared to what it was 50 years during Rosewall's time.

Federer at age 38 played much higher level tennis than Rosewall ever did in his 30s.

This is how well Ken (and Rod) was playing just a few months short of 38:

And as ollie noted he'd go on to reach 2 consecutive Slam Fs 2 years later. The guy was THAT good in his late 30s/early 40s.

I still remember Feddies pushing their hero as the longevity GOAT back then and thinking, "This will not age well." Same thing now with Djok0b0ts. Father Time aka history always wins out in the end.

Rosewall remains THE preeminent old lion of the OE. Dude was singled out even in 1978 by Vines who in his book attributed Muscles' miraculous longevity to his smooth playing style (ditto Gonzales and his "gliding"). Pretty sure he'd be humbling youngers even today, especially given how much Sinner struggled with Dimi's slice in this year's Wimby 4R.

If somebody didnt, I want to mention Jimmy Connors. This guy reached USO SF at 39 yo in 1991 as a WC, played a 4 set-match against Ivan lendl at 40 yo the following year. I think that, longevity-wise, Federer ~ Connors > Djokovic (Djokovic worse than both but not by huge margin IMO). Also, trying to explain why Connors is relative to Federer, he was competitive until 35-36 yo against ATG like borg, mcenroe (who got beaten by a nearly 30 yo Connors in 1982 wimbledon, which at the time was retirement age), lendl, edberg, wilander all of this in the 80s-early 90s, where retirement age was 30-32 yo and no technological progress that Federer had.
So he might be the Gold standard for longevity as well as Federer.

Jimbo deserves a mention of his own, yes. Still 2nd to Muscles, though.

 

[jl809]

but the blisters on his foot had nothing to do with his loss. Novak raised his level and took the match to him and Murray couldn't keep up.

I choose to believe this is incorrect

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

 

[jl809]

On topic, the one person discussed so far who still certainly isn’t longevity GOAT rn is Djokovic. This may change though