Is it fun being a pusher?

Tjg

Rookie
As the title asks...is it fun? Just had a league match. Everyone I have been played so far would be considered a pusher. All they do is stand back and lob every ball. Every service return is chipped back It’s a 4.0 league, so they are can move well and run down balls.....but every ball they get to is just blocked back with zero pace. What is fun about that? It gets super boring when I have to provide all the pace and they just barely swing to pop it up and back between The service and base line. Today was the same. During warm up my opponent was actually hitting the ball and lead me to believe I would finally play someone who actually hits with pace......well, The match started and all he did was chip every ball back. I would go side to side but he could move well so he would lob every ball back 10-15ft in the air to give him time to get back to the middle to do it again. Would drop shot, would run forward, pop the ball deep and retreat back to the base line. So of course I would get annoyed and start slamming the ball which would miss 30% + of the time. So I ask, what is fun about that? What is fun about camping at the baseline and just blocking or rainbowing every ball? What is fun or satisfying about winning because your opponent beats themselves. Yes, it’s still a victory. I understand a win is a win no matter how it happens and that you do not get extra points for hitting winners. Again, what is fun, satisfying or how do you feel like you have accomplished something when all you do is rainbow every ball?
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
As the title asks...is it fun? Just had a league match. Everyone I have been played so far would be considered a pusher. All they do is stand back and lob every ball. Every service return is chipped back It’s a 4.0 league, so they are can move well and run down balls.....but every ball they get to is just blocked back with zero pace. What is fun about that? It gets super boring when I have to provide all the pace and they just barely swing to pop it up and back between The service and base line. Today was the same. During warm up my opponent was actually hitting the ball and lead me to believe I would finally play someone who actually hits with pace......well, The match started and all he did was chip every ball back. I would go side to side but he could move well so he would lob every ball back 10-15ft in the air to give him time to get back to the middle to do it again. Would drop shot, would run forward, pop the ball deep and retreat back to the base line. So of course I would get annoyed and start slamming the ball which would miss 30% + of the time. So I ask, what is fun about that? What is fun about camping at the baseline and just blocking or rainbowing every ball? What is fun or satisfying about winning because your opponent beats themselves. Yes, it’s still a victory. I understand a win is a win no matter how it happens and that you do not get extra points for hitting winners. Again, what is fun, satisfying or how do you feel like you have accomplished something when all you do is rainbow every ball?
It is definitely fun to bait brainless ball bashers into self-sabotage and emotional meltdown. LMAO, so, yeah, sure, I see the fun. Sounds like I would have been absolutely giddy in that match.
 

Shaolin

Talk Tennis Guru
I've recently seen the "fun" in pushing.

I'm a professional coach and my natural style of play is very aggressive (hit hard and flat, come to net often) but I do a drill with my students where I play a set with them and play the pusher role, just to make them earn points the hard way.

My goal is to not hit a single winner or make an error the whole set (if I hit an accidental winner we replay the point) , which helps me see where my students errors come from. I normally play in am extreme semi western grip but in this drill I play in an eastern grip and just block every ball, not powerful but deep and try to frustrate/annoy them into making an error.

What I have found it that it is extremely easy to get even good high school players upset and throwing their racquet, etc. Playing the pusher role you dont feel any pressure to make anything happen, just watch people get mad and implode.

So I can kind of see what pushers get out of it, in kind of a sick way. I wouldn't play like that though but they are definitely a valuable gatekeeper type player for those trying to go from 3.5 or so to 4.5+.

Note, for you coaches on here try this drill with some of your students, I've found it to be a really good one.
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
As the title asks...is it fun? Just had a league match. Everyone I have been played so far would be considered a pusher. All they do is stand back and lob every ball. Every service return is chipped back It’s a 4.0 league, so they are can move well and run down balls.....but every ball they get to is just blocked back with zero pace. What is fun about that? It gets super boring when I have to provide all the pace and they just barely swing to pop it up and back between The service and base line. Today was the same. During warm up my opponent was actually hitting the ball and lead me to believe I would finally play someone who actually hits with pace......well, The match started and all he did was chip every ball back. I would go side to side but he could move well so he would lob every ball back 10-15ft in the air to give him time to get back to the middle to do it again. Would drop shot, would run forward, pop the ball deep and retreat back to the base line. So of course I would get annoyed and start slamming the ball which would miss 30% + of the time. So I ask, what is fun about that? What is fun about camping at the baseline and just blocking or rainbowing every ball? What is fun or satisfying about winning because your opponent beats themselves. Yes, it’s still a victory. I understand a win is a win no matter how it happens and that you do not get extra points for hitting winners. Again, what is fun, satisfying or how do you feel like you have accomplished something when all you do is rainbow every ball?
What happens when you push back, supply no pace?
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
I am generally a serve and volleyer. But on days that the opponent is really good at passing or days where my mid-court volley is not working, I resort to a controlled wait-it-out type of baseline play.

I don't lay off the pace or the top spin, I can't moonball to save my life ... but simply getting every ball back deep to a safe target can be pretty fun.

It takes a lot of mental strength and very good anticipation and footwork to accomplish. (for me, maybe others find it easy!)

Watching an opponent become more and more frustrated is really pretty darn rewarding.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I prefer to play aggressively and have more fun hitting many winners - but, when I play offensively like that, I make more errors also. I notice that when I play like this with many winners and more UFEs than usual, my opponents don’t get too discouraged and they keep trying to fight till the end of the match as they might be getting one or sometimes two easy points in a game off my errors.

When I cut down on errors and make the opponent earn every point in every game, many of them give up if they lose the first set and the second set is usually a blowout in my favor. Also, more points are ending on my opponent‘s errors and they tend to start getting upset with their own game, get frustrated and implode emotionally in many cases. This makes for a quicker, more efficient victory and it’s also fun to see an opponent mentally worn down.

I try to strike a balance between going for many winners and making too many errors. So, I can see how a pusher might get pleasure from making opponents self-destruct and tank games at the end of a match.

Nadal makes many opponents give up in matches not because he is a pusher, but because he fights hard for every point and once he is up a set in Bof3 or two sets in Slams, he takes away the opponent’s willingness to fight.
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
I prefer to play aggressively and have more fun hitting many winners - but, when I play offensively like that, I make more errors also. I notice that when I play like this with many winners and more UFEs than usual, my opponents don’t get too discouraged and they keep trying to fight till the end of the match as they might be getting one or sometimes two easy points in a game off my errors.

When I cut down on errors and make the opponent earn every point in every game, many of them give up if they lose the first set and the second set is usually a blowout in my favor. Also, more points are ending on my opponent‘s errors and they tend to start getting upset with their own game, get frustrated and implode emotionally in many cases. This makes for a quicker, more efficient victory and it’s also fun to see an opponent mentally worn down.

I try to strike a balance between going for many winners and making too many errors. So, I can see how a pusher might get pleasure from making opponents self-destruct and tank games at the end of a match.

Nadal makes many opponents give up in matches not because he is a pusher, but because he fights hard for every point and once he is up a set in Bof3 or two sets in Slams, he takes away the opponent’s willingness to fight.

This is the case at every single level of tennis. The vast majority of tennis points, from 2.0 to Roger v Nadal, end on an error. If you make less errors, you win tennis matches.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
When the OP learns to get to low slices/chips fast and hit a good shot or learns to hit swinging volleys off moonballs, he will suddenly find his league opponents stop doing that and come up with other shots to take advantage of other weaknesses he has. I don’t think there are any USTA 4.0 leagues in my county where every singles player is a pusher - so, I think the OP labels everyone who makes less errors than him and wins against him a ‘pusher’.

Especially in a league match, players are trying to win lines for their team as easily and as quickly as they can - if your satisfaction comes from hitting winners and not giving yourself the best chance to win one for the team, you are not exactly a ‘team player‘. Oh, I forgot that the OP is unable to hit winners against these easy balls his opponents are hitting with no pace - I guess he is not a high-level 4.0 who actually knows how to generate his own pace off neutral balls consistently.
 
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leech

Semi-Pro
As the title asks...is it fun? Just had a league match. Everyone I have been played so far would be considered a pusher. All they do is stand back and lob every ball. Every service return is chipped back It’s a 4.0 league, so they are can move well and run down balls.....but every ball they get to is just blocked back with zero pace. What is fun about that? It gets super boring when I have to provide all the pace and they just barely swing to pop it up and back between The service and base line. Today was the same. During warm up my opponent was actually hitting the ball and lead me to believe I would finally play someone who actually hits with pace......well, The match started and all he did was chip every ball back. I would go side to side but he could move well so he would lob every ball back 10-15ft in the air to give him time to get back to the middle to do it again. Would drop shot, would run forward, pop the ball deep and retreat back to the base line. So of course I would get annoyed and start slamming the ball which would miss 30% + of the time. So I ask, what is fun about that? What is fun about camping at the baseline and just blocking or rainbowing every ball? What is fun or satisfying about winning because your opponent beats themselves. Yes, it’s still a victory. I understand a win is a win no matter how it happens and that you do not get extra points for hitting winners. Again, what is fun, satisfying or how do you feel like you have accomplished something when all you do is rainbow every ball?
I'm not a pusher in the classic sense, but I have a pusher mentality and do enjoy stealing wins from players who have better stroke mechanics than I do. I gain satisfaction from watching players implode because I'm not giving them balls they are comfortable hitting. If, after the match, they want to hit and request I hit only topspin balls at the pace they prefer, I'm happy to accommodate.
 

jered

Rookie
I doubt that literally, “Everyone I have been played so far would be considered a pusher.” Maybe 1 or 2 were. Very few people are true pushers and if they have a “normal” warmup, then they’re not.

It sounds like they are simply playing high percentage tennis. If all they need to do to beat you is chip and lob then you lack the weapons to punish them. They don’t need to go for more and they probably recognize that.

Winning IS fun. Using strategy to make your opponent self-destruct is delightful!

The solution is to play more people with defensive, consistent styles and develop the tools to beat it. I had the same mentality as you until I accepted that they weren't “dirty pushers”, they were better players than me and I lacked the tools to beat them with my mindless bashing. The score never lies.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
As the title asks...is it fun? Just had a league match. Everyone I have been played so far would be considered a pusher. All they do is stand back and lob every ball. Every service return is chipped back It’s a 4.0 league, so they are can move well and run down balls.....but every ball they get to is just blocked back with zero pace. What is fun about that? It gets super boring when I have to provide all the pace and they just barely swing to pop it up and back between The service and base line. Today was the same. During warm up my opponent was actually hitting the ball and lead me to believe I would finally play someone who actually hits with pace......well, The match started and all he did was chip every ball back. I would go side to side but he could move well so he would lob every ball back 10-15ft in the air to give him time to get back to the middle to do it again. Would drop shot, would run forward, pop the ball deep and retreat back to the base line. So of course I would get annoyed and start slamming the ball which would miss 30% + of the time. So I ask, what is fun about that? What is fun about camping at the baseline and just blocking or rainbowing every ball? What is fun or satisfying about winning because your opponent beats themselves. Yes, it’s still a victory. I understand a win is a win no matter how it happens and that you do not get extra points for hitting winners. Again, what is fun, satisfying or how do you feel like you have accomplished something when all you do is rainbow every ball?
Based on your observation that everyone you have played in 4.0 league is a pusher, it sounds highly likely that your own playing style is influencing the playing style of everyone you are playing against.

If you showed the ability either to play more consistently or to attack the net, it’s likely that these pushers would adapt and play differently. But until, then, your fellow competitors will continue to opt for the surest and safest path to victory against you.
 

vex

Legend
As the title asks...is it fun? Just had a league match. Everyone I have been played so far would be considered a pusher. All they do is stand back and lob every ball. Every service return is chipped back It’s a 4.0 league, so they are can move well and run down balls.....but every ball they get to is just blocked back with zero pace. What is fun about that? It gets super boring when I have to provide all the pace and they just barely swing to pop it up and back between The service and base line. Today was the same. During warm up my opponent was actually hitting the ball and lead me to believe I would finally play someone who actually hits with pace......well, The match started and all he did was chip every ball back. I would go side to side but he could move well so he would lob every ball back 10-15ft in the air to give him time to get back to the middle to do it again. Would drop shot, would run forward, pop the ball deep and retreat back to the base line. So of course I would get annoyed and start slamming the ball which would miss 30% + of the time. So I ask, what is fun about that? What is fun about camping at the baseline and just blocking or rainbowing every ball? What is fun or satisfying about winning because your opponent beats themselves. Yes, it’s still a victory. I understand a win is a win no matter how it happens and that you do not get extra points for hitting winners. Again, what is fun, satisfying or how do you feel like you have accomplished something when all you do is rainbow every ball?
Learn to hit overheads.

collect your win

Also if their pace is so weak and they’re standing in the middle of the court and you can’t hit a winner to a corner or angle something way off court or AT THE VERY LEAST hit a 2 shot combo that makes them hit a ball on the run giving you a volley/overhead opportunity.... then you are just a weaker pusher than them and need to work on your FH.

but I would bet money that your real problem is you haven’t practiced overheads. If they are hitting that high and slow, move in and hit an overhead
 
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Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Played a set against a pusher today. BH couldn't hurt me so I went at it over and over until he put up a short ball that I put to the opposite corner or back footed him and if he got that one back I closed and volleyed it away.

It's definitely a test of patience. But once you realize they have no weapons that can hurt you, it's just target practice. You are no longer trying to beat your opponent but trying to just hit balls to spots over and over again until one doesn't come back. But you can repeat that same pattern over and over against pushers and they've got no dangerous answer.

Hit hard and deep to their weaker wing relentlessly until you get a weak short ball. Stay within your capabilities, If they never give up the weak short ball then you aren't good enough and accept you lost to the better player. If you can't reliably hit their slow paced balls to the same spot over and over again then you aren't good enough and accept you lost to the better player.
 

loosegroove

Hall of Fame
I don't really like playing against pushers, but it's fun to play in that style sometimes. Granted I only find it fun to push when I feel in control and like I'm dictating play.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I don't really like playing against pushers, but it's fun to play in that style sometimes. Granted I only find it fun to push when I feel in control and like I'm dictating play.

I don't think you can both "Push" and "dictate play." They are like polar opposites. Pushers are the ultimate defenders. Hard to dictate from the defensive position.

If you ran me around the court, I'd never call you a pusher. If I ran you around the court and all you did was get the ball back to the middle, I'd call you a pusher.
 

loosegroove

Hall of Fame
I don't think you can both "Push" and "dictate play." They are like polar opposites. Pushers are the ultimate defenders. Hard to dictate from the defensive position.

If you ran me around the court, I'd never call you a pusher. If I ran you around the court and all you did was get the ball back to the middle, I'd call you a pusher.

I hear what you're saying. But if someone uses the pace of his opponent's shots and blocks them back high and deep, mixed in with bunting the ball to various parts of the court, I'd call that a pusher. And if the pusher is the better player, it can make the "offensive" player look pretty silly.
 

jered

Rookie
I hear what you're saying. But if someone uses the pace of his opponent's shots and blocks them back high and deep, mixed in with bunting the ball to various parts of the court, I'd call that a pusher. And if the pusher is the better player, it can make the "offensive" player look pretty silly.

I think you’re describing a counterpuncher more than a pusher.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
The real question is ‘Is it fun to be the kind of low-level player who loses to a low-level pusher?’ Forget about whether the pusher is having fun or not.

If you can’t shorten points and win the majority of them by hitting aggressive baseline shots or net approaches against someone who just hits easy balls down the middle, you suck badly at tennis and just lost to a better player. Pushers just get hated because they destroy the misconceptions of low-level inconsistent players that they are any good at tennis. Good tennis players can be aggressive and be consistent still in addition to dictating most point patterns with either their serve or return. Just get to that level quickly by getting coaching and practicing hard instead of worrying about whether pushers are happy to win matches.
 

vex

Legend
The real question is ‘Is it fun to be the kind of low-level player who loses to a low-level pusher?’ Forget about whether the pusher is having fun or not.

If you can’t shorten points and win the majority of them by hitting aggressive baseline shots or net approaches against someone who just hits easy balls down the middle, you suck badly at tennis and just lost to a better player. Pushers just get hated because they destroy the misconceptions of low-level inconsistent players that they are any good at tennis. Good tennis players can be aggressive and be consistent still in addition to dictating most point patterns with either their serve or return. Just get to that level quickly by getting coaching and practicing hard instead of worrying about whether pushers are happy to win matches.
^ Truth

People complain about pushers because the pushers aren’t trading free points with them by matching thier inconsistent shots. “Pushers” as the term is most commonly used here are just a test. If you don’t have the skills to easily tear thru a pusher, the harsh reality is you aren’t as good as you think you are.

And pushing never truly goes away, as you move up the ladder the pusher turns into the baseline grinder - players with all the strokes and tools and the ability to play offensively but the strategic choice to simply play most shots with decent margin. The balanced dance of offense v defense never really ends. Just compare the styles of some top players during thier peaks: Andy Murray on one end to Djokovic sort of in the middle to Roger Federer on the other end. It’s all about using your tools to beat your opponent. At some point it just becomes a mental game.
 
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roadto50

Rookie
The real question is ‘Is it fun to be the kind of low-level player who loses to a low-level pusher?’ Forget about whether the pusher is having fun or not.

If you can’t shorten points and win the majority of them by hitting aggressive baseline shots or net approaches against someone who just hits easy balls down the middle, you suck badly at tennis and just lost to a better player. Pushers just get hated because they destroy the misconceptions of low-level inconsistent players that they are any good at tennis. Good tennis players can be aggressive and be consistent still in addition to dictating most point patterns with either their serve or return. Just get to that level quickly by getting coaching and practicing hard instead of worrying about whether pushers are happy to win matches.

Spot on. Pushers are the gatekeepers to higher tennis. Everyone thinks they deserve to play 4.5 until they get their ass handed by a 4.0 pusher.

With that said, most will never get to the level you are talking about. The investment needed to improve your game to a point where you can bagel pushers and it basically becomes an exhibition match is substantial. Lets be honest. The typical 4.0 isn't going to get any faster or stronger. They don't have the foundation to quickly and easily elevate their game through a few minor tweaks, especially if they picked up tennis late in life.
 

Matthew Lee

Professional
I think winning is the best part about pushing to be honest. However, like a lot of people have said, it is quite entertaining to watch your opponent self-implode and whatever else there is. It gets to the point where my friends sometimes complain about the way I got the W on certain days.

But listen it ain't my fault I really enjoy winning so what the hell


No I'm actually serious. One of my friends told me that I shouldn't consider myself better than him simply because I play a counterpunching/pushing style against him. Like alright bud I've beaten you more times than I can count but whatever >: /
 

vex

Legend
Spot on. Pushers are the gatekeepers to higher tennis. Everyone thinks they deserve to play 4.5 until they get their ass handed by a 4.0 pusher.

With that said, most will never get to the level you are talking about. The investment needed to improve your game to a point where you can bagel pushers and it basically becomes an exhibition match is substantial. Lets be honest. The typical 4.0 isn't going to get any faster or stronger. They don't have the foundation to quickly and easily elevate their game through a few minor tweaks, especially if they picked up tennis late in life.
Rec guys aren’t getting crazy athletic gains in thier adult years that’s for sure. That said, I’ve seen dedicated rec guys in thier 20s-30s develop all the basic tools and skills to wreck pushers. It ain’t easy tho, it’s tons of work
 

vex

Legend
I think winning is the best part about pushing to be honest. However, like a lot of people have said, it is quite entertaining to watch your opponent self-implode and whatever else there is. It gets to the point where my friends sometimes complain about the way I got the W on certain days.

But listen it ain't my fault I really enjoy winning so what the hell


No I'm actually serious. One of my friends told me that I shouldn't consider myself better than him simply because I play a counterpunching/pushing style against him. Like alright bud I've beaten you more times than I can count but whatever >: /
It’s kind of like the man who doesn’t want taxes raised on the Uber rich because he thinks he’ll be Uber rich someday. Your friend rightfully feels that you have reached your ceiling and can’t improve. He wrongfully sees himself as surging past you with his skills when in reality he’s not putting in the work to develop the skills that would blow you away.
 

Matthew Lee

Professional
It’s kind of like the man who doesn’t want taxes raised on the Uber rich because he thinks he’ll be Uber rich someday. Your friend rightfully feels that you have reached your ceiling and can’t improve. He wrongfully sees himself as surging past you with his skills when in reality he’s not putting in the work to develop the skills that would blow you away.
Yeah you're definitely right about him not putting in the work

Half of the time he's joking but when he's not it can get somewhat annoying. I can definitely flatten out my shots and try to be more aggressive but I choose not to because I really really *really* enjoy winning
 
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vex

Legend
Yeah you're definitely right about him not putting in the work

Half of the time he's joking but when he's not it can get somewhat annoying. I can definitely flatten out my shots and try to be more aggressive but I choose not to because I really really *really* enjoy winning
“Push” yourself to play more offensive when you’re firmly in the drivers seat :p
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Spot on. Pushers are the gatekeepers to higher tennis. Everyone thinks they deserve to play 4.5 until they get their ass handed by a 4.0 pusher.

With that said, most will never get to the level you are talking about. The investment needed to improve your game to a point where you can bagel pushers and it basically becomes an exhibition match is substantial. Lets be honest. The typical 4.0 isn't going to get any faster or stronger. They don't have the foundation to quickly and easily elevate their game through a few minor tweaks, especially if they picked up tennis late in life.
The first step to fix an issue is to recognize that there is a problem that needs to be fixed. If the players who complain after losing to pushers (there is a new thread every week) actually admitted to themselves that they are really bad at tennis, then maybe they will start taking the steps necessary to become a good player. While there is no easy way to become a 4.5+ player who easily beats pushers if you learned tennis as an adult, you have to take the approach that a 1000-mile journey starts with a single step and start the process of improvement.

I personally think you can’t become a 4.5 unless you find a good coach, take regular lessons and then practice hard in between lessons to work on specific things that the lesson focused on. Most 4.5+ players were fortunate enough to do this as kids, but the path is not different if you learned tennis as an adult. There are a few unicorn 4.5s who might be an exception to this, but they probably played other sports at a high level and practiced seriously even if they didn’t get coached much. Also, if you have a bad coach (there are many of them) or don’t practice hard on your own, you won’t improve much either - everyone who gets coached does not become a 4.5 especially if they are not fit.

Most guys just play matches with self-learned technique and then wonder why they can’t beat a pusher - they seem to think that they have good technique because they hit with more pace than the pusher who beat them. In reality, they probably have bad-looking technique from a spectator‘s perspective if they can’t hit several hard, aggressive shots in a row off easy ‘pusher’ shots to win points consistently. They also probably haven’t practiced their serve and return enough with good technique to be a weapon to straightaway start dictating points off easy ‘pusher’ returns and serves. My experience is that players with good looking technique on serves, shots, volleys, smashes etc. are very consistent while being able to generate a lot of pace. I haven’t met an inconsistent player who has great-looking technique yet.
 
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roadto50

Rookie
I personally think you can’t become a 4.5 unless you find a good coach, take regular lessons and then practice hard in between lessons to work on specific things that the lesson focused on. Most 4.5+ players were fortunate enough to do this as kids, but the path is not different if you learned tennis as an adult. There might be a few unicorn 4.5s who might be an exception to this, but they probably played other sports at a high level and practiced seriously even if they didn’t get coached much. Also, if you have a bad coach (there are many of them) or don’t practice hard on your own, you won’t improve much either - everyone who gets coaches does not become a 4.5 especially if they are not fit.

For the most part, I feel like there is a ceiling for every player and it really goes back to the highest level they played at or, as you put it, when they started playing. At 4.5, I see players who got there by grinding a ton of matches at 4.0 and I can spot them from a mile away. These are the players who will almost never become 5.0. They are the players who are too good for 4.0 but can't really become a strong 4.5 due to fundamental flaws in their game that are very difficult to fix (usually physical). At 5.0, it's the same story. People think 5.0 is divine tennis but even at that level, it's very easy to spot who is a strong 5.0 (aka the guy with 4 years of D1 tennis who started at 5.0 or 5.5) vs a 4.5 who played 500 matches to get there (which is still very good tennis). Personally, without sounding defeatist, I know I will never become a strong 5.0 because the only way for me to get there is by grinding at 4.5.

Also think you need really good hitting buddies to get better unless you want to pay a coach every time and realistically you aren't finding much better players to hit with you unless you pay for courts and balls, they know you personally, or they are just nice people.

That's basically a long way of saying tennis is a damn hard sport to get good at. Lot of barriers to overcome.
 
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Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
I've recently seen the "fun" in pushing.

I'm a professional coach and my natural style of play is very aggressive (hit hard and flat, come to net often) but I do a drill with my students where I play a set with them and play the pusher role, just to make them earn points the hard way.

My goal is to not hit a single winner or make an error the whole set (if I hit an accidental winner we replay the point) , which helps me see where my students errors come from. I normally play in am extreme semi western grip but in this drill I play in an eastern grip and just block every ball, not powerful but deep and try to frustrate/annoy them into making an error.

What I have found it that it is extremely easy to get even good high school players upset and throwing their racquet, etc. Playing the pusher role you dont feel any pressure to make anything happen, just watch people get mad and implode.

So I can kind of see what pushers get out of it, in kind of a sick way. I wouldn't play like that though but they are definitely a valuable gatekeeper type player for those trying to go from 3.5 or so to 4.5+.

In kind of a sick way. Couldn't agree more. I've said here before that pushers are sadists.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
That's basically a long way of saying tennis is a damn hard sport to get good at. Lot of barriers to overcome.

Agree with your post, but would add a couple of comments.

- If you mentally think there is a ceiling, you will never break it. I agree that most players are not physically fit and would first need to work on that too to become an advanced tennis player. But, it can be done as there are many old people who run marathons or do ‘Ironman’ contests. Everything difficult needs a lot of blood, sweat, tears and thousands of hours to become proficient at.
- Most sports are very tough to play at a high level if you learned it as an adult and tennis is no different. Most sports played by adults recreationally are team sports and they can kid themselves that they are somewhat good if the team does well - like a NTRP 3.0 national champ in a tennis league. But, when you play an individual sport that you learned as an adult and you compete against those who were good at it as juniors, it can be a humbling experience. Golfers have the handicap system and know how bad they shot against the course par score and have no delusions about how bad they are. In tennis, there is no objective method apart from a computer NTRP/UTR rating to measure how good you are and many self-rated players can kid themselves that they are good competing only against others who learned tennis as adults - it is these guys who get rudely shocked out of their daydream of being an older Federer when they start getting beaten by consistent players with bad-looking strokes.
 

loosegroove

Hall of Fame
Agree with your post, but would add a couple of comments.

- If you mentally think there is a ceiling, you will never break it. I agree that most players are not physically fit and would first need to work on that too to become an advanced tennis player. But, it can be done as there are many old people who run marathons or do ‘Ironman’ contests. Everything difficult needs a lot of blood, sweat, tears and thousands of hours to become proficient at.
- Most sports are very tough to play at a high level if you learned it as an adult and tennis is no different. Most sports played by adults recreationally are team sports and they can kid themselves that they are somewhat good if the team does well - like a NTRP 3.0 national champ in a tennis league. But, when you play an individual sport that you learned as an adult and you compete against those who were good at it as juniors, it can be a humbling experience. Golfers have the handicap system and know how bad they shot against the course par score and have no delusions about how bad they are. In tennis, there is no objective method apart from a computer NTRP/UTR rating to measure how good you are and many self-rated players can kid themselves that they are good competing only against others who learned tennis as adults - it is these guys who get rudely shocked out of their daydream of being an older Federer when they start getting beaten by consistent players with bad-looking strokes.

Ironically, the better I got at tennis, the more I realized how much I suck at it.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Ironically, the better I got at tennis, the more I realized how much I suck at it.
This is true in all aspects of life. There are four levels of performance from lowest to highest.

1. Unconsciously incompetent - you don’t even know how bad you are (like the guys losing to pushers). You are new to a field and you are a living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

2. Consciously incompetent - you have learned how much you don’t know and are starting to appreciate the expertise of the ones at the top. You are at an early stage in your development and you realize you need education and mentors.

3. Consciously competent - you work very hard, try your best and you have acquired enough skills and experience to do well. But others can see that you are having to spend a lot of time on this effort. You are a solid professional.

4. Unconsciously competent - you are successful and you make it look easy. You are at the top of your profession or sport. You might still be working hard behind the scenes, but others can only see the effortless way you perform.
 

roadto50

Rookie
Agree with your post, but would add a couple of comments.

- If you mentally think there is a ceiling, you will never break it. I agree that most players are not physically fit and would first need to work on that too to become an advanced tennis player. But, it can be done as there are many old people who run marathons or do ‘Ironman’ contests. Everything difficult needs a lot of blood, sweat, tears and thousands of hours to become proficient at.

I should have put it a different way. The investment a player needs to improve grows exponentially at each level. It's the difference between an old guy training to simply complete a marathon vs a marathon at 4 minute mile pace. One is just "competing". The other is a world class athletic. By the same token, a semi athletic player could go from a 3.0 to a 3.5 in probably 6 to 12 months. OTOH, I would have to dedicate my entire life outside of work to tennis if I wanted to hit 5.5 in the next 6 to 12 months. So, at least for me, it's less about a hard ceiling and more about a "I can't realistically commit that much time to get to that level and I know it" type ceiling. And knowing I am not getting any younger or seeing a reduction in life responsibilities any time soon, I am kind of satisfied playing high 4.5/low 5.0.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I should have put it a different way. The investment a player needs to improve grows exponentially at each level. It's the difference between an old guy training to simply complete a marathon vs a marathon at 4 minute mile pace. One is just "competing". The other is a world class athletic. By the same token, a semi athletic player could go from a 3.0 to a 3.5 in probably 6 to 12 months. OTOH, I would have to dedicate my entire life outside of work to tennis if I wanted to hit 5.5 in the next 6 to 12 months. So, at least for me, it's less about a hard ceiling and more about a "I can't realistically commit that much time to get to that level and I know it" type ceiling.
Agree. That’s why the most reliable way to become a 4.5 player later in life is to be 5.0+ when you were a junior. Very few learn tennis as an adult and then have the time and motivation to become a 4.5+ player by slowly progressing.
 
Also fun to try get a pusher to change their game. Hit them off the court for a few points, then outpush them in a 20 or 30 shot rally, then hit them off the court again. Then they realise that pushing ain't gonna succeed...
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Also fun to try get a pusher to change their game. Hit them off the court for a few points, then outpush them in a 20 or 30 shot rally, then hit them off the court again. Then they realise that pushing ain't gonna succeed...

That's called being the clearly better player. If you can hit them off the court and out-push them, you are just plain better. Play a tougher pusher that hits with more depth and pace but the same metronomic consistency and has no trouble returning your hardest shots. Then you'll get frustrated like the rest of us.;)

I can eat most 3.0 and 3.5 pushers for breakfast. But a 4.0 pusher will always beat me as I can't get that short ball from him no matter how hard I try. I just don't have the pace that gets him in trouble. I also don't have the reliable drop shot from deep in the court to bring him in. And coming in myself on his deep balls just gets me lobbed or passed as I can't pressure him from 5 feet behind the baseline.
 

jered

Rookie
If winning is your #1 priority, pushing is the best strategy sub 5.0. You’ll win a lot because rec players generally lack the tools and mentality to beat pushing.

My priority is to get better, I’m a technique nerd. I’ve learned to accept that I can’t control what my opponent does and enjoy the challenge of all types of players. when I play a very good pusher I know I’ll likely lose because my style is riskier, I’m “working on things”, and it’s no fun for me to push in response. I have the mentality but not the tools... yet.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
That's called being the clearly better player. If you can hit them off the court and out-push them, you are just plain better. Play a tougher pusher that hits with more depth and pace but the same metronomic consistency and has no trouble returning your hardest shots. Then you'll get frustrated like the rest of us.;)

I can eat most 3.0 and 3.5 pushers for breakfast. But a 4.0 pusher will always beat me as I can't get that short ball from him no matter how hard I try. I just don't have the pace that gets him in trouble. I also don't have the reliable drop shot from deep in the court to bring him in. And coming in myself on his deep balls just gets me lobbed or passed as I can't pressure him from 5 feet behind the baseline.

Have you tried S&V and C&C? At the very least, you will take him out of his comfort zone [trading GSs] and force him to take more risk [a passing shot].

Yes there are downsides to this strategy. The point is you have nothing to lose, based on your description vs 4.0 pushers.
 

vex

Legend
That's called being the clearly better player. If you can hit them off the court and out-push them, you are just plain better. Play a tougher pusher that hits with more depth and pace but the same metronomic consistency and has no trouble returning your hardest shots. Then you'll get frustrated like the rest of us.;)

I can eat most 3.0 and 3.5 pushers for breakfast. But a 4.0 pusher will always beat me as I can't get that short ball from him no matter how hard I try. I just don't have the pace that gets him in trouble. I also don't have the reliable drop shot from deep in the court to bring him in. And coming in myself on his deep balls just gets me lobbed or passed as I can't pressure him from 5 feet behind the baseline.
You have to be able to put enough pace on a deep push to make him hit on the run. After that it’s just about executing your overhead. Nothing else is going to solve the problem you described. Sliding higher and higher up the ladder people don’t hit deep pushes because they are punished with pace, accuracy and most importantly overheads/volleys. If a guy is just hitting deep overheads why stand at the baseline and wait for them. Move in at random times so he has no rhythm and hit overheads.

The only other thing you can do is heavy spin/mini lob to his backhand corner. I’ve never seen a pusher who can accurately push a ball that is over his shoulder on the BH side without giving me an easy overhead to finish.
 
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Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Have you tried S&V and C&C? At the very least, you will take him out of his comfort zone [trading GSs] and force him to take more risk [a passing shot].

Yes there are downsides to this strategy. The point is you have nothing to lose, based on your description vs 4.0 pushers.

Back when I was younger, that was my favorite style. But these days I’m not quick enough to get in and avoid the mid court Half volley or overhead. Those are not shots I’m going to win with.

And I practice them every time out hitting with my wife. I’m at the point the shots aren’t liabilities but they aren’t going to win me many points.

But I agree that getting in gets me a few more points than trading baseline groundies. Just not enough to beat the quality 4.0 pusher.
 
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