Is it fun being a pusher?

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Back when I was younger, that was my favorite style. But these days I’m not quick enough to get in and avoid the mid court Half volley or overhead. Those are not shots I’m going to win with.

And I practice them every time out hitting with my wife. I’m at the point the shots aren’t liabilities but they aren’t going to win me many points.

But I agree that getting in gets me a few more points than trading baseline groundies. Just not enough to beat the quality 4.0 pusher.

What about bringing them in with drop shots or, more conservatively, shots short enough that make it uncomfortable to retreat?
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
What about bringing them in with drop shots or, more conservatively, shots short enough that make it uncomfortable to retreat?

Again my droppers just aren’t that precise unless I’m inside the baseline.

My game is to give you difficult to deal with balls of varying spin, height and depth, moving you side to side, until I get a short ball then step on the gas. I tend to lose against people that either get me on my back heels or get all my varied shots back deep. They force me away from what I’m good at and into shots that aren’t my comfort zone.

But I imagine a good 4.0 would struggle against a 4.5 pusher. Basically anyone that has Superior pace and consistency is going to win.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
those shots are really hard to play consistently.

I really should have left "drop shot" out of it and stuck solely with "short".

Because while a good DS is a fairly high-risk/low-margin shot [not much separates a great DS from an error into the net [too short] or a sitter [too deep], the deliberately short ball is not that difficult. Most people don't play that shot because it goes against dogma [ie "hit everything deep"].

Federer is the poster-child [and no, you don't have to hit the shot as well as Federer unless you are playing someone as good as Federer's opponents]: a CC, short, slice that draw the opponent forward and wide and leaves them in a compromised position: should I retreat or advance? If you can get him to advance, you've taken him out of his comfort zone from the BL. If he retreats, you have some open court to work with or, if he's quick, the option to wrong-foot him.

My point was that *anything* is better than just doing what you always do because you already know that outcome. What's the harm in rolling the dice and seeing what results?

And if you actually practice that shot, so much the better.
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Again my droppers just aren’t that precise unless I’m inside the baseline.

See my response to @ptuanminh above; it doesn't have to be a DS per se; just something short enough to encourage him to come to the net.

My game is to give you difficult to deal with balls of varying spin, height and depth, moving you side to side, until I get a short ball then step on the gas. I tend to lose against people that either get me on my back heels or get all my varied shots back deep. They force me away from what I’m good at and into shots that aren’t my comfort zone.

Understood. But this is precisely why you haven't made any headway vs 4.0 pushers. You don't have a shot that bothers them enough. The strategy I'm suggesting will be more successful. Will you win? Probably not, unless they have a meltdown. But I'm betting you'll do better than if you stuck with your current strategy. But it will require a shift in your game.
 

Matthew Lee

Professional
A pusher is anyone who hits softer and makes less unforced errors than I do.

A brainless ball basher is anyone who hits harder and makes more unforced errors than I do.
What if someone hits softer but makes more unforced errors than you :laughing:
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Then they are a scrub and a waste of my time

If they hit harder and make less unforced errors, they are a filthy sandbagger
This reminds me of my post from 3 months ago on another ‘pusher’ thread written with tongue firmly in cheek.
Why would the couple of guys who don’t win any 5.0 matches be on the 5.0 ladder? Sounds like they should exactly be the kind of guys who should play on the 4.5 ladder??

I think I’m starting to crack the code of the TTW lingo to describe the three categories of rec players at each level.

1. Hits hard, loses a lot and turns into an error-machine in any serious match - ‘Ball-basher‘ or ‘aggressive baseliner‘ or ’heavy ground-stoker’ or ‘Serious tennis player‘. Seems to describe many TTW posters.
2. Does not hit hard or hits at pace appropriate for level, wins a lot and is consistent - ‘Pusher’
3. Hits hard, wins a lot and is consistent - ‘Sand-bagger’

The first category of player plays with a RF97 or a precisely-matched 360 SW racquet that will help him to improve his game eventually (presumably before his hair turns gray or he goes bald) unlike the ‘mugs’ winning most of their matches with lightweight ‘granny sticks’ that will prevent them from ever improving to the next level. Plays only with poly or a poly/gut hybrid, claims he breaks all strings known to man within 5 hours and has experimented with a minimum of 25 strings in the last couple of years. Either is refining his ‘ATP takeback modern-FH’ or has given up on the ‘ATP takeback’ and now argues that it is not appropriate for any coach to teach that to Adults and especially women. Believes that strategy/tactical adjustments are over-rated and are not needed at the rec level.

The second category of player is always described as devilishly fast and does not understand the spirit of how ’true tennis’ should be played. He might be a junker, hacker, moonballer or be able to hit good top-spin only down the middle and can hit 20-25 shots in a rally without missing even though he is always described as having 3.5 level strokes - somehow ‘pushers’ always have magical shot-tolerance powers irrespective of their low level even though they are presumably defending on every ball against the heavy topspin, textbook swing, high-pace balls being hit by our ’serious tennis’ playing poster. They probably have a racquet bought used or for $40 at the nearby big-box sporting goods store and haven’t ever changed their strings or broken them either - might even be playing with the dreaded Babolat PD or PA and doesn’t know that he will get ‘tennis elbow’ soon. Opponent always claims he has no strategy except to wait for their errors - although spectators notice that he can actually locate his serve anywhere within the box, hits short slices/dropshots/lobs and makes his opponent constantly hit shots on the move or draws them to the net and then passes/lobs them.

The third category of player has no business playing at a particular level even though he might have had a computer ranking at that level for a decade and the USTA has never deemed him worthy of being bumped up. He is a sandbagger because ‘I say so‘ - I mean how else could he easily beat me when he is hitting too hard to be a ‘pusher’?

Tongue firmly in cheek:happydevil:
 

nyta2

Legend
back when i was in shape, i really enjoyed making folks give up.... especially loud mouths.
loved getting sitters and intentionally hitting a ball they could just get to... cuz even if they won the point, they'd lose the next 3.
now i'm fat and out of shape... but appreciate when grinders do to me what i used to do...
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Understood. But this is precisely why you haven't made any headway vs 4.0 pushers. You don't have a shot that bothers them enough. The strategy I'm suggesting will be more successful. Will you win? Probably not, unless they have a meltdown. But I'm betting you'll do better than if you stuck with your current strategy. But it will require a shift in your game.

At some point mere strategic changes won't get you past players of a certain level. But yes I could work on different strategies but since they aren't in my wheelhouse, execution will be a challenge. And my daily routine doesn't come up against 4.0 pushers very often. Only ever see them in league.

All my tennis buddies are seasoned doubles players and the short ball, bring them to the net is the exact opposite of what you want to do.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
At some point mere strategic changes won't get you past players of a certain level. But yes I could work on different strategies but since they aren't in my wheelhouse, execution will be a challenge. And my daily routine doesn't come up against 4.0 pushers very often. Only ever see them in league.

All my tennis buddies are seasoned doubles players and the short ball, bring them to the net is the exact opposite of what you want to do.

Aren't you conflating 2 groups? My advice was for the 4.0 pushers that you have trouble with, not your seasoned doubles buddies who presumably have no problem moving forward; pushers won't be so eager.

You don't want to change because it's well out of your CZ; I get it. But it reminds me of the old joke:

"Mr. Jones, why are you looking for your car keys on 6th street? You said you dropped them on 7th."

"Yeah but the lighting here is better."
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
Being a good doubles player is no guarantee of playing the net well in singles.

Personally I find doubles players have good hands, but are a bit clueless when it comes to covering angles. You can't lob or bully their volley as easily as you can with a typical baseliner, but more often than not they'll give you a nice opening for a passing shot.
 

davced1

Hall of Fame
If winning is your #1 priority, pushing is the best strategy sub 5.0. You’ll win a lot because rec players generally lack the tools and mentality to beat pushing.

My priority is to get better, I’m a technique nerd. I’ve learned to accept that I can’t control what my opponent does and enjoy the challenge of all types of players. when I play a very good pusher I know I’ll likely lose because my style is riskier, I’m “working on things”, and it’s no fun for me to push in response. I have the mentality but not the tools... yet.
Great mentality. Losing is no fun but instead of just whining about it the better approach is to learn from the losses and move on. Good luck on your journey and someday you will blow those pushers off the court!
 

RatedPG

New User
Tennis is fun; using the pushing strategy against ball bashers is even more fun as well ;)
Especially, when they start calling you a moon baller or tell you to start playing like a man.... I’ve heard it all. That only validates I’m using the correct strategy.
 

Matthew Lee

Professional
Great mentality. Losing is no fun but instead of just whining about it the better approach is to learn from the losses and move on. Good luck on your journey and someday you will blow those pushers off the court!
Agreed. Keeping a positive mentality (which is no easy feat) especially during losses is incredible and something that everyone should try to do. Much respect and good fortune!
 

Vicious49

Legend
Some of the guys I play with would be considered pushers. They take particular joy in hitting moo balls because they know the court is t that deep. I wish the fence was another 5 feet back, but it’s not so I’d run out of space to back up and take a normal swing. A buddy of mine told me that’s just an excuse and I need to learn to step in and hit the ball on the rise.

The other thing I had to do was learn patience. Listening to John McEnroe during a broadcast helped me a lot in this regard. He was talking about how parents make an excuse like ‘my kid lost to a worse player because the other guy kept moonballing him‘. He was like ‘tennis is hitting the ball back on the court more than your opponent. If they did that and beat you, they are the better tennis player.’ He also told a story about how he once had to play a moonballer and the 1st set took 3 hours. And then the guy essentially gave up that strategy so Mac crushed him in the 2nd set.

Now I see it as almost a compliment. If you want to moonball me that tells me that you’ve already decided you can’t beat me in normal rallies. Now I just need to be more patient than you and let you tire out or give up. I still don’t enjoy playing against this type of opponent but at least I don’t let it get to me anymore.

Just compare the styles of some top players during thier peaks: Andy Murray on one end to Djokovic sort of in the middle to Roger Federer on the other end. It’s all about using your tools to beat your opponent. At some point it just becomes a mental game.

What type of playe would Medvedev be considered? I ask because my game probably most resembles his. i have a loopy takeback and my strokes don’t look pretty like Feds but I get to a lot of balls and hit a lot of varied shots to try and make you move or run all over the court.

With that said, most will never get to the level you are talking about. The investment needed to improve your game to a point where you can bagel pushers and it basically becomes an exhibition match is substantial. Lets be honest. The typical 4.0 isn't going to get any faster or stronger. They don't have the foundation to quickly and easily elevate their game through a few minor tweaks, especially if they picked up tennis late in life.

I played tennis as a kid but never got coached or played consistently. I really only started playing consistently in my mid to late 30s. Due to lots of YouTube videos and the occasional coaching I’ve managed to work my way up to what I’d consider 4.0. I still am athletic enough and have enough technique improvement to make where I think I could be a 4.5. I don’t have the time or energy to put in enough work to get beyond that at this point in my life. And I’m totally content with that.

For the most part, I feel like there is a ceiling for every player and it really goes back to the highest level they played at or, as you put it, when they started playing. At 4.5, I see players who got there by grinding a ton of matches at 4.0 and I can spot them from a mile away. These are the players who will almost never become 5.0. They are the players who are too good for 4.0 but can't really become a strong 4.5 due to fundamental flaws in their game that are very difficult to fix (usually physical). At 5.0, it's the same story. People think 5.0 is divine tennis but even at that level, it's very easy to spot who is a strong 5.0 (aka the guy with 4 years of D1 tennis who started at 5.0 or 5.5) vs a 4.5 who played 500 matches to get there (which is still very good tennis). Personally, without sounding defeatist, I know I will never become a strong 5.0 because the only way for me to get there is by grinding at 4.5.

Also think you need really good hitting buddies to get better unless you want to pay a coach every time and realistically you aren't finding much better players to hit with you unless you pay for courts and balls, they know you personally, or they are just nice people.

That's basically a long way of saying tennis is a damn hard sport to get good at. Lot of barriers to overcome.

Before tennis I was big in to paintball. I started doing tourney ball and worked my way up to D3. I got in to the sport at Age 30. I knew time wasnt on my side and getting to around D3 was my goal. 2 of the guys that I played with and against regularly are now playing on Pro teams. I was just as good if not better than them at the time, but they were younger and wanted to put in the time and energy to get to the Pros. So yes, there are a lot of factors that determine how far you can go in any sport.
 

vex

Legend
Tennis is fun; using the pushing strategy against ball bashers is even more fun as well ;)
Especially, when they start calling you a moon baller or tell you to start playing like a man.... I’ve heard it all. That only validates I’m using the correct strategy.
You feel validation in being objectively wrong? Your strategy has a hard ceiling whereas skill development does not. The players you are beating may never reach thier potential and keep losing to you but everyone that develops thier game will pass you. But you know this already because your initial upward trajectory stopped awhile ago and now you’re treading water in USTA. You can’t get any better or go any higher in the ranks than you have already reached. Zero potential for improvement. What a waste of time.

You aren’t winning all your matches and skyrocketing to 4.5 and beyond. Your validation must feel pretty great when you can’t move up any more because 4.0/4.5s with basic racquet skills just wreck you and you have zero tools or backup plan to keep up. I see tons of guys like you: “I’m pretty good for my age” is what I hear most after your pushing gets dumpster’d. My favorite thing to do to a moonballer is to moonball them more accurately - specifically to thier BH corner and then basically jog in to overhead the inevitable wounded duck I’ll get back.

Hey, you want to have fun farming low ranked players? Cool, go for it. But don’t talk to us about “validation” in a dead end strategy.
 
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vex

Legend
Some of the guys I play with would be considered pushers. They take particular joy in hitting moo balls because they know the court is t that deep. I wish the fence was another 5 feet back, but it’s not so I’d run out of space to back up and take a normal swing. A buddy of mine told me that’s just an excuse and I need to learn to step in and hit the ball on the rise.

The other thing I had to do was learn patience. Listening to John McEnroe during a broadcast helped me a lot in this regard. He was talking about how parents make an excuse like ‘my kid lost to a worse player because the other guy kept moonballing him‘. He was like ‘tennis is hitting the ball back on the court more than your opponent. If they did that and beat you, they are the better tennis player.’ He also told a story about how he once had to play a moonballer and the 1st set took 3 hours. And then the guy essentially gave up that strategy so Mac crushed him in the 2nd set.

Now I see it as almost a compliment. If you want to moonball me that tells me that you’ve already decided you can’t beat me in normal rallies. Now I just need to be more patient than you and let you tire out or give up. I still don’t enjoy playing against this type of opponent but at least I don’t let it get to me anymore.



What type of playe would Medvedev be considered? I ask because my game probably most resembles his. i have a loopy takeback and my strokes don’t look pretty like Feds but I get to a lot of balls and hit a lot of varied shots to try and make you move or run all over the court.



I played tennis as a kid but never got coached or played consistently. I really only started playing consistently in my mid to late 30s. Due to lots of YouTube videos and the occasional coaching I’ve managed to work my way up to what I’d consider 4.0. I still am athletic enough and have enough technique improvement to make where I think I could be a 4.5. I don’t have the time or energy to put in enough work to get beyond that at this point in my life. And I’m totally content with that.



Before tennis I was big in to paintball. I started doing tourney ball and worked my way up to D3. I got in to the sport at Age 30. I knew time wasnt on my side and getting to around D3 was my goal. 2 of the guys that I played with and against regularly are now playing on Pro teams. I was just as good if not better than them at the time, but they were younger and wanted to put in the time and energy to get to the Pros. So yes, there are a lot of factors that determine how far you can go in any sport.
Med is pretty unique. His serve is strong. His movement is exceptional considering his height. Add in his consistency and he’s a defensive nightmare akin to 2015 Djokovic when he’s on his game. He’s the most consistent flat hitter on tour and has a with a rock solid backhand.

He’s basically a lesser version of Djokovic. He’s going to have a lot of success if he can keep it together mentally.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Aren't you conflating 2 groups? My advice was for the 4.0 pushers that you have trouble with, not your seasoned doubles buddies who presumably have no problem moving forward; pushers won't be so eager.

You don't want to change because it's well out of your CZ; I get it. But it reminds me of the old joke:

"Mr. Jones, why are you looking for your car keys on 6th street? You said you dropped them on 7th."

"Yeah but the lighting here is better."

I guess what I was trying to say is that the opportunities to practice what would work against a 4.0 pusher are limited. The people I do have a chance to play singles against are not pushers and would not fall prey to the strategy. Their approaches and volleys are better. And their groundstrokes aren't as refined so they don't keep me as far back.

The best prep for any type of opponent is to actually play that type of opponent. I think that's why so many people hate pushers. They don't generally see them in their practice matches. And don't frequently invite them out for a hit. They don't get invited to our social doubles men's nights because they are almost exclusively singles players. So while I know of a few of them, I don't really know them.

I know one 4.0 guy that pushes a lot when he plays singles but he's actually a fine doubles player and can put away short balls and volley well. So he's not my best option for a "bring him in" practice session. He's more of a counterpuncher than a true pusher.

I guess the other option would be to accept getting beat by these people by giving them short balls and bringing them in, just to practice bringing people in.
 
What about bringing them in with drop shots or, more conservatively, shots short enough that make it uncomfortable to retreat?

As someone who isn't a pusher, but plays in a similar style, the best way to beat a pusher is with awkward mid-court balls. If you hit balls shorter and into "no mans land", then it will open up angles/spaces on the court to hit past the pusher.
 
D

Deleted member 771407

Guest
You feel validation in being objectively wrong? Your strategy has a hard ceiling whereas skill development does not. The players you are beating may never reach thier potential and keep losing to you but everyone that develops thier game will pass you. But you know this already because your initial upward trajectory stopped awhile ago and now you’re treading water in USTA. You can’t get any better or go any higher in the ranks than you have already reached. Zero potential for improvement. What a waste of time.

You aren’t winning all your matches and skyrocketing to 4.5 and beyond. Your validation must feel pretty great when you can’t move up any more because 4.0/4.5s with basic racquet skills just wreck you and you have zero tools or backup plan to keep up. I see tons of guys like you: “I’m pretty good for my age” is what I hear most after your pushing gets dumpster’d. My favorite thing to do to a moonballer is to moonball them more accurately - specifically to thier BH corner and then basically jog in to overhead the inevitable wounded duck I’ll get back.

Hey, you want to have fun farming low ranked players? Cool, go for it. But don’t talk to us about “validation” in a dead end strategy.

You sound a bit vexed !
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Winning is fun.
Utilizing strategy is fun.
Seeing your opponent implode is fun.
Being on the dark side of tennis is fun :happydevil:

I think these "Pusher" guys thinks of tennis as endurance test. I am going to out last you on court kind of thing. but they don't think of tennis as hitting a beautiful shot or Great shot you take on the rise and hitting a acute angle at 60 MPH for clean winner, kind of beautiful shots. That's what makes tennis fun for me but these Pushers have different ideas, mainly cause they Can't hit those great shots. so i always consider these Pushers Inferior players even though they may win some decent matches now and then.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I think these "Pusher" guys thinks of tennis as endurance test. I am going to out last you on court kind of thing. but they don't think of tennis as hitting a beautiful shot or Great shot you take on the rise and hitting a acute angle at 60 MPH for clean winner, kind of beautiful shots. That's what makes tennis fun for me but these Pushers have different ideas, mainly cause they Can't hit those great shots. so i always consider these Pushers Inferior players even though they may win some decent matches now and then.

To me tennis and golf are two of the longest lasting recreational sports largely because of the seduction of the great shot. If you hit a 5 iron pure, you get the visual, auditory and sensual feedback that provides that little dopamine boost in your pleasure centre. In Tennis, that Ace or well struck sweet spot FH DTL gives the same mix of auditory, visual and sensual feedback that is addicting.

Given that it's challenging to do those things reliably in both golf and tennis, means that the rewards come intermittently and infrequently enough to prime the addictiveness.

I'm not sure what a pusher gets out of tennis that at all compares to the feel of a well struck FH groundstroke or big serve. These things are like catching the perfect wave surfing, riding a powder field on a snowboard, waterskiing on a glass-like lake surface.

Pushers are probably more like runners where they crave the steady adrenalin runners high from constant torment rather than the intermittent dopamine boost
of pleasurable experiences.
 

California

Semi-Pro
As someone who isn't a pusher, but plays in a similar style, the best way to beat a pusher is with awkward mid-court balls. If you hit balls shorter and into "no mans land", then it will open up angles/spaces on the court to hit past the pusher.
I think another tactic that gets overlooked sometimes is to hit behind the pusher. They love to run and will chase down many balls, but they want to get a better jump on the ball and run to the open court like the retrievers that they are. Hit some groundies and volleys behind them to keep them honest and wrong foot them from time to time.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
To me tennis and golf are two of the longest lasting recreational sports largely because of the seduction of the great shot. If you hit a 5 iron pure, you get the visual, auditory and sensual feedback that provides that little dopamine boost in your pleasure centre. In Tennis, that Ace or well struck sweet spot FH DTL gives the same mix of auditory, visual and sensual feedback that is addicting.

Given that it's challenging to do those things reliably in both golf and tennis, means that the rewards come intermittently and infrequently enough to prime the addictiveness.

I'm not sure what a pusher gets out of tennis that at all compares to the feel of a well struck FH groundstroke or big serve. These things are like catching the perfect wave surfing, riding a powder field on a snowboard, waterskiing on a glass-like lake surface.

Pushers are probably more like runners where they crave the steady adrenalin runners high from constant torment rather than the intermittent dopamine boost
of pleasurable experiences.

Yes, i know what you mean. when i hit that 6 iron plush right on the sweet spot with perfect spin, you get that Buttery feel with no vibration and ball Explodes into the air high and lands on the green with Backspin and spins right into the HOLE. That is what i am talking about.
 
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nyta2

Legend
Yes, i know what you mean. when i hit that 6 iron plush right on the sweet spot with perfect spin, you get that Buttery feel with no vibration and ball Explodes into the air high and lands on the green with Backspin and spins right into the HOLE. That is what i am talking about.
i get that feeling when i'm hitting a 9i from right field and can get anywhere near the pitchers mound... bonus if i can get it into the divot in front of the pitching rubber.
 

Tjg

Rookie
It is definitely fun to bait brainless ball bashers into self-sabotage and emotional meltdown. LMAO, so, yeah, sure, I see the fun. Sounds like I would have been absolutely giddy in that match.
You are assuming everyone who plays that was has some grand scheme, including yourself....when in reality it’s not some master plan, it just the way they/you always play. That’s what I am inquiring about. What is fun about playing like that all the time?
 

Tjg

Rookie
Learn to hit overheads.

collect your win

Also if their pace is so weak and they’re standing in the middle of the court and you can’t hit a winner to a corner or angle something way off court or AT THE VERY LEAST hit a 2 shot combo that makes them hit a ball on the run giving you a volley/overhead opportunity.... then you are just a weaker pusher than them and need to work on your FH.

but I would bet money that your real problem is you haven’t practiced overheads. If they are hitting that high and slow, move in and hit an overhead
I can’t hit an overhead when the ball is 12+ ft in the air....but you’re also right, I don’t practice them.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
I can’t hit an overhead when the ball is 12+ ft in the air....but you’re also right, I don’t practice them.

I used to think that way.

Then I learned I had feet.
That can move.
And they can move me back 6-8 feet while in a sideways trophy position to take the overhead when it is then just right.
 

Connorsfan

New User
Just get better at tennis. When your serve is good enough to make them defensive returning, you will get easy putaways. When your groundies are good enough that you can take the ball on the rise and pressure your opponent or hit outright winners, you’re all good. You’re just not punishing those people enough. Break open your piggy bank, get some coaching and be sociable to have a stable of hitting partners. When you’re better you will crush them. Opponents are just targets anyway. You’re really playing to be the best version of yourself.
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
I think these "Pusher" guys thinks of tennis as endurance test. I am going to out last you on court kind of thing. but they don't think of tennis as hitting a beautiful shot or Great shot you take on the rise and hitting a acute angle at 60 MPH for clean winner, kind of beautiful shots. That's what makes tennis fun for me but these Pushers have different ideas, mainly cause they Can't hit those great shots. so i always consider these Pushers Inferior players even though they may win some decent matches now and then.

Says who? Maybe they can, but they'd rather take home the trophy rather than the memory of that one cool shot they hit in a match they lost.

I always consider the players that lose matches as inferior to the players that win matches, but hey, what do I know?
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
To me tennis and golf are two of the longest lasting recreational sports largely because of the seduction of the great shot. If you hit a 5 iron pure, you get the visual, auditory and sensual feedback that provides that little dopamine boost in your pleasure centre. In Tennis, that Ace or well struck sweet spot FH DTL gives the same mix of auditory, visual and sensual feedback that is addicting.

Given that it's challenging to do those things reliably in both golf and tennis, means that the rewards come intermittently and infrequently enough to prime the addictiveness.

I'm not sure what a pusher gets out of tennis that at all compares to the feel of a well struck FH groundstroke or big serve. These things are like catching the perfect wave surfing, riding a powder field on a snowboard, waterskiing on a glass-like lake surface.

Pushers are probably more like runners where they crave the steady adrenalin runners high from constant torment rather than the intermittent dopamine boost
of pleasurable experiences.

I am not what one would consider a pusher, but there is no one on Earth I'd rather play than the guy chasing that one amazing tennis shot. I'll even be a good sport and let you get it. Enjoy consies.
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
Don't get me wrong, I will chase those low percentage shots and it feels good in the moment when I make them. But those aren't the shots I remember. The shots I remember are the routine volleys I dumped into the net. It's the sitter forehands I hit long. It's the double faults. Those are the moments that send me back to the practice court. I don't want to get better at hitting the miracle shot. I want to get better at not missing the fundamental shots.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Don't get me wrong, I will chase those low percentage shots and it feels good in the moment when I make them. But those aren't the shots I remember. The shots I remember are the routine volleys I dumped into the net. It's the sitter forehands I hit long. It's the double faults. Those are the moments that send me back to the practice court. I don't want to get better at hitting the miracle shot. I want to get better at not missing the fundamental shots.

There is a huge difference between a "miracle" shot and a well struck sweet spot shot DTL or CC. The latter is what all the coaches are trying to teach you to do. It's the goal, not some low percentage hail mary.

And all a pusher has to remember a match by is his opponents errors.

I am not what one would consider a pusher, but there is no one on Earth I'd rather play than the guy chasing that one amazing tennis shot. I'll even be a good sport and let you get it. Enjoy consies.

It's not the one amazing shot that people should be chasing. What the tennis player should be chasing is hitting the good shot consistently. Just like my goal in golf is to strike the ball on the sweet spot of the club consistently. I'm not chasing 350 yard drives, I'm chasing 240 yd drives down the middle over and over again.

In tennis I'm chasing deep groundstrokes with topspin into a 6 foot window near the sideline over and over again. That takes technique, practice and hitting the sweet spot out front. But those aren't "miracles". But those are shots that provide positive feedback to the tennis player.

Tennis becomes pretty joyless if all that drives you is negativity.
 

Chalkdust

Professional
Different people enjoy different aspects of playing, and that's fine. Pushers enjoy the physical workout they get, and tend to be very competitive also (chase every ball, never say die mentality). Other people enjoy the sensation / artistry of a well-struck ball, or of hitting a winner. It's all good - different styles is what makes tennis fun.
 

kingcheetah

Hall of Fame
I mean true pushing (standing in the middle of the court, mindlessly hitting moonballs back to the center with the whole strategy being attrition) seems boring to me, but some people like it because it's their best chance to win.

I like winning too, but I'm an aggressive all-courter, so I have a lot more fun when I get to hit a variety of shots in a match.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Different people enjoy different aspects of playing, and that's fine. Pushers enjoy the physical workout they get, and tend to be very competitive also (chase every ball, never say die mentality). Other people enjoy the sensation / artistry of a well-struck ball, or of hitting a winner. It's all good - different styles is what makes tennis fun.

I agree. Just always curious as to the psychology of it all. I still think the pusher is into the adrenalin initiated Runner's High type feeling, whereas others are into the dopamine pleasure center addiction feeling. Whereas others clearly are masochists that like to torment themselves over missed shots.

All those reasons are valid.

I mean true pushing (standing in the middle of the court, mindlessly hitting moonballs back to the center with the whole strategy being attrition) seems boring to me, but some people like it because it's their best chance to win.

I like winning too, but I'm an aggressive all-courter, so I have a lot more fun when I get to hit a variety of shots in a match.

Pushing, to me, is the golf equivalent of playing from the forward tees and hitting 8 irons all round long. Yes, I enjoy scoring well, but I have more fun when I get to use all the clubs in the bag and challenge myself to hit a variety of golf shots.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
You are assuming everyone who plays that was has some grand scheme, including yourself....when in reality it’s not some master plan, it just the way they/you always play. That’s what I am inquiring about. What is fun about playing like that all the time?
Its the pleasure of watching your opponent self-destruct into a total meltdown knowing that you caused it.
 

shamaho

Professional
Winning is fun.
Utilizing strategy is fun.
Seeing your opponent implode is fun.
Being on the dark side of tennis is fun :happydevil:
Definitely very very true :) !! and winning does feel great! but that's only one face of the coin, , let me try to propose the other face of the same coin:

-Getting stuck in a one trick show
-Fixed mindset -> Not knowing or even trying to pass the limits of one's ability
-Ingraining the fear of failure
-Not plan B for an able player
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Its the pleasure of watching your opponent self-destruct into a total meltdown knowing that you caused it.

It's sad that watching someone self destruct is considered "pleasure". I only wish those things on people I dislike. But everyone gets their jollies differently.

I prefer to play someone where we both leave the court with a smile on our face, no matter the victor.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I once charted my singles matches for a few weeks and found that they mostly average 100-120 points. If I win the match, I usually win 60-70 points and hit about 15-20 winners. So, average is about 8-10 winners per set which I don’t think is uncommon for a 4.5 player. In most cases, I’m trying to open up space on one side of the court during the rally before hitting a winner into that open space, approaching and hitting a volley/overhead winner or occasionally hitting some dropshots/aces. It is hard to get excited about hitting a winner when it happens 15-20 times during a match and I don’t particularly relish it much more than forcing an error and winning the point. Aces are special and I do enjoy those a lot.

The most memorable winners are when I’m playing defense and have to hit a running forehand, running topspin lob, hit a lunge-volley at the net or recover a drop shot close to the net with a nice finesse winner of my own. In all those cases, the pattern favored my opponent since I was on defense or barely got to a great pass and while I might have won the point, I don’t necessarily want these patterns to repeat. I would much rather not have to hit any of these memorable shots and have a more pedestrian match where I control the point and hit easy winners off short balls or easy volleys into space or force errors.

So, I don’t get a big thrill from hitting winners - I hit a lot of them and so do my opponents mostly on our own service games with many of them being the serve+1 kind. For me, the big emotional thrill is always winning the match point, set points and occasionally holding serve after a long game with many deuces. I should add that I get a great deal of enjoyment from playing singles in general and hitting winners doesn’t add much to any endorphins I‘m already getting - but, winning matches does give me a buzz that lasts for a couple of hours.
 
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J_R_B

Hall of Fame
It's sad that watching someone self destruct is considered "pleasure". I only wish those things on people I dislike. But everyone gets their jollies differently.

I prefer to play someone where we both leave the court with a smile on our face, no matter the victor.
We can both smile and be friends after leaving the court. If you take your frustrations off the court, you shouldn't be playing.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
We can both smile and be friends after leaving the court. If you take your frustrations off the court, you shouldn't be playing.

Well that's true. It's not really the pushers fault the opponent self destructs. But i suspect most pushers are actually perplexed as to why the opponent is angry and out of sorts. I don't think they are necessarily relishing the person's inability to keep things together. They just want to get every ball back so they don't lose. Likely very little malicious intent.
 

Tjg

Rookie
My rage is always inward. Sure it may be annoying, but I am the one who is missing the shots and giving away games. I am the only one to blame for that
 

Tjg

Rookie
It's sad that watching someone self destruct is considered "pleasure". I only wish those things on people I dislike. But everyone gets their jollies differently.

I prefer to play someone where we both leave the court with a smile on our face, no matter the victor.
Wanting to manipulate people into mental meltdowns is what sociopaths do. Hopefully members of the opposite sex catch on before he gets to pleasure himself to the thought of causing them to have a mental breakdown.
 
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