Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
To me it's the shot(s) that sets up the winner that I relish. Those are the shots most well struck.
Is it fun being a pusher?
- Thread starter Tjg
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To me it's the shot(s) that sets up the winner that I relish. Those are the shots most well struck.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
One of the club members where I play, a ballbasher, gained weight as he was attacking and making many errors leading to short points in each game he played. He got fat and his girlfriend left him for the pusher who kept winning against him and was in great shape from all the running he did.
This story is as true as the previous one.
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
Doing a consistent high percentage shot over and over again... isn't that what people are mad about in this thread and are calling pushing?
There isn't a single definition of pusher, so people use it for different things, which adds to the confusion.
For me, a pusher is someone who has poor stroke mechanics and lacks the ability to generate pace and topspin, and so relies purely on using 'ugly-looking' defensive shots. Literally pushing the ball rather than stroking it. Such a player can't actually put a ball away even if they wanted to.
But then others use a more broad definition, under which definition someone like Gilles Simon is a pusher.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
pushing is doing the safest shot possible over and over again.
Doing a forcing shot with good consistency is what most other tennis players are trying to achieve. That takes practice and good technique.
toby55555
Hall of Fame
Most pushers probably don't have much option if they want to give a decent account of themselves. They wont have the skill set to play attacking tennis with any decent percentage return. You will argue they will only get better by trying but in fact they wont without coaching and training which they probably aren't interested in or they wouldn't be pushers. You could win 6-0 6-0 if they tried to be proactive but that would be even more boring for you than trying to figure a way to stretch their defence.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Lots of non-pushers out there with no particular coaching or training, but rather a will to learn and get better. And importantly a will to have poor results while learning.
Being not interested in getting better is one of my chief beefs of pushers. It's not that hard to read a few books, watch a few teaching videos, shadow swing in front of mirrors, hand feed a hopper of balls every now and then. If you are interested enough in tennis to compete in leagues, why wouldn't you be interested enough to learn a bit? As my father always told me, "Anything worth doing is worth doing well."
Topspin Shot
Legend
I'm not a pusher, but sometimes I'll push just to mess with people. 
This is an actual conversation I had with a friend. We are both 3.0 level. He has been playing for 3 years, I have about 7 months actual playing experience.
Him: I'm going to film our hitting and show it to my friend (from the sound of it 4.0~4.5 player), and he will give us some tips for improvements.
Me: Cool, are you going to have him fix your backhand and finally learn how to hit a proper backhand?
Him: Nah, I'm only going to worry about getting the ball back.
I am convinced this pusher mentality is why his skill level have stayed completely stagnant despite playing regularly. I couldn't say much because I was too new to the sport to beat him, but I am finally getting good enough to show him the error in his ways.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I don’t think anyone gets much better if they only play matches whether it is the pusher or the ballbasher. A good strategy to win a high % of matches is to stay within your limits so you don’t make a lot of unforced errors - stay at the limit of your shot tolerance and consistency at that point in your tennis journey. Meanwhile, keep practicing proper technique in lessons and drill sessions outside of matches and slowly, your consistency will still be there at increasingly higher pace/spin and your level will increase.
So, whatever style you play in a match, the key is to have focused practice sessions additionally every week. Whether you push and win matches or bash and lose matches, neither player will improve if all they do is play matches. I keep hearing here that if you hit hard and make a lot of errors in matches, you will magically improve in the future. Consistency has to be developed first outside of matches and then implemented in match play.
Being a pusher is not a bad strategy in matches as you learn to be consistent under pressure - as long as the pusher practices outside of matches to improve his technique and pace/spin. If not, he is limiting his ceiling as a player. But, the ceiling is even lower for ballbashers who don’t do focused practice or take lessons as they will continue to lose at the level where the pusher is winning and they won‘t improve either. It is highly unlikely that someone who makes a lot of errors in a match against a pusher (who is not bothering them with pace/spin) has anything close to good technique and therefore, why would the basher improve by just playing more matches and continuing to make tons of unforced errors.
So, whatever style you play in a match, the key is to have focused practice sessions additionally every week. Whether you push and win matches or bash and lose matches, neither player will improve if all they do is play matches. I keep hearing here that if you hit hard and make a lot of errors in matches, you will magically improve in the future. Consistency has to be developed first outside of matches and then implemented in match play.
Being a pusher is not a bad strategy in matches as you learn to be consistent under pressure - as long as the pusher practices outside of matches to improve his technique and pace/spin. If not, he is limiting his ceiling as a player. But, the ceiling is even lower for ballbashers who don’t do focused practice or take lessons as they will continue to lose at the level where the pusher is winning and they won‘t improve either. It is highly unlikely that someone who makes a lot of errors in a match against a pusher (who is not bothering them with pace/spin) has anything close to good technique and therefore, why would the basher improve by just playing more matches and continuing to make tons of unforced errors.
ichaseballs
Hall of Fame
i never bash a pusher...
if i lose i would only be mad at myself
if i lose i would only be mad at myself
time_fly
Hall of Fame
I've been investigating pickleball a bit, and I've noticed that YouTube is filled with videos about how to beat "Bangers" in pickleball -- players that only hit the ball hard and give trouble to low-level pickleball players. Sounds like the direct opposite of tennis, lol.
PS. I have little interest in playing pickleball myself, but I might recommend it to people looking for a new activity in the pandemic since we're still allowed to play and the learning curve is much less steep than tennis.
PPS. Any interest in the sport that I might have developed was neutralized by all the talk of working on "dinking rallies."
PS. I have little interest in playing pickleball myself, but I might recommend it to people looking for a new activity in the pandemic since we're still allowed to play and the learning curve is much less steep than tennis.
PPS. Any interest in the sport that I might have developed was neutralized by all the talk of working on "dinking rallies."
......for a woman who was born a man.
graycrait
Legend
A Closer Look at the Winner-Unforced Error Ratio
Italian translation at settesei.it Few tennis statistics are more frequently cited than winners and unforced errors. Nearly every broadcast displays them, and the ratio between the two numbers is d…
www.tennisabstract.com
The player with more winners claims 68% of contests, while the player with fewer errors wins 73% of matches.
Whenever I see these "anti pusher" threads I wonder if the OP is a UTR13+ or some wildly swinging frustrated 3.5-4.0 player?
esgee48
G.O.A.T.
It is relative. I am a pusher to my 4.5+ friends and a hitter to lower level players. Getting the ball back so they have to hit it one more time is the name of the game. Not giving away points is a reasonable objective if you can't hit winners against players that are younger, stronger, faster, better....
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
My guess is the later, since most UTR 13+ wouldn't have pusher there since pusher doesn't exist beyond 4.0.A Closer Look at the Winner-Unforced Error Ratio
Italian translation at settesei.it Few tennis statistics are more frequently cited than winners and unforced errors. Nearly every broadcast displays them, and the ratio between the two numbers is d…www.tennisabstract.com
The player with more winners claims 68% of contests, while the player with fewer errors wins 73% of matches.
Whenever I see these "anti pusher" threads I wonder if the OP is a UTR13+ or some wildly swinging frustrated 3.5-4.0 player?
Learn to S&V. Pushers can rarely take the pressure. I'm not talking about just coming to net...I'm talking about actually learning S&V strategy. I won a lot of Jr. Tournaments as a kid (and a lot of matches as an adult too!) against much higher ranked players by learning percentages and offensive net play. Sure, today's teens and 20's is a different game, but if you are over 30, S&V is a winning strategy - if you know what you are doing. Few play this way today -- which gives you even more advantage.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Preach it, brother!
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Is all winning fun though? I've had to resort to pushing a few times when I wasn't getting anywhere with my usual game and it wasn't fun sinning games that way. It was just winning. Similarly I've beat lower level players and had little fun doing it because there was no challenge.
I think beating a challenging opponent is fun. Doing it with your best game is even more fun. I think pushing to win is kind of like kissing your sister.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
More fun than losing.
Usually I resort to pushing when the opponent is comparable in skill or better than I am. In those cases, winning is more fun.
RaulRamirez
Legend
"Pusher" is a bit in the eyes of the beholder.
If you play more defensive or based on high percentages, it's brilliant strategy and tactics.
If you lose to it, it's pushing.
To be honest, I'm a very analytical person in nearly all settings, but on the tennis court, I tend to be more of a basher than a pusher. Especially, as I get even older, I can use more finesse and patience....more pushing?
If you play more defensive or based on high percentages, it's brilliant strategy and tactics.
If you lose to it, it's pushing.
To be honest, I'm a very analytical person in nearly all settings, but on the tennis court, I tend to be more of a basher than a pusher. Especially, as I get even older, I can use more finesse and patience....more pushing?
Pushing can be an effective training tool and meeting new people. Playing with people 0.5 level below you and trying to get every ball back to their strike zone so you can have a sustainable rally is a great way to work on your own game.
The pushing mentality will add another dimension to your game and it's fun too.
The pushing mentality will add another dimension to your game and it's fun too.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I don't know. I've had some great losses in tennis and some miserable wins. To me what's most fun is playing well. And that means executing.
Just like in golf, where I've scored well by sinking a bunch of lucky putts and getting good bounces but otherwise played like rubbish. I don't relish those rounds. At least not compared to a round where I'm playing great tee to green but the putts aren't dropping. I prefer those rounds easily.
That's where I think the mentality between a pusher and non-pusher is different. A pusher's mindset is to beat the opponent and views tennis in merely those terms. Many non-pushers view tennis as a journey of self improvement and winning vs losing is secondary to building skills and executing them in a match. In fact there are many people that don't even play matches but only hit with others cooperatively as their "tennis fix". Everyone is different.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
I have had (countless) great losses. I have had miserable losses. I have played against and with miserable people. I have never had a miserable win.
Perhaps it is that I have never been so good that I haven't had to play well to win.
Matthew ATX
Semi-Pro
I have had wins that I would say were miserable. One mixed doubles match in a quarterfinal comes to mind where the woman would do nothing but chop cuts or deep lobs. I hated it. It wasn't fun. We were down 2-5 in the first set and I told my partner I was packing my bag and going home because this was awful and I hated it. She slapped the taste out of my mouth, told me to quit being a lazy a-hole, and we came back and won that set 7-5. Then won the second set 6-0. I did not enjoy one single second of that match other than the one where we closed out match point and I got to crack a beer and celebrate that it was over.
But here's the thing. That's not a knock on our opponents. They figured out a way to beat a better team and for the better part of a set, it worked. If my partner and I weren't seasoned teammates, it easily would have given them the match and I would have shook their hands and congratulated them on a well earned win.
But here's the thing. That's not a knock on our opponents. They figured out a way to beat a better team and for the better part of a set, it worked. If my partner and I weren't seasoned teammates, it easily would have given them the match and I would have shook their hands and congratulated them on a well earned win.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
I don't recall any miserable wins. When I see early in a match that things are miserable for my opponent, I try and be as friendly and encouraging as I can through the process. Sometimes that means putting them out of their misery quickly. Sometimes that means taking it easy and allowing for a bit more practice and exercise for both sides.
My great losses were usually when I managed to keep things close against a better opponent. I don't recall any miserable losses. Sure, I've often gotten my butt handed to me, but once I see it's going that way, I take the liberty to try out a few things to see how they match against an opponent's strengths.
I have lots of days when given shots just aren't working. I enjoy the opportunity to try and adjust my game and try and win with whatever IS working that day.
Pushing is just another skill - another tool in the box. Those who are willing to use that skill are often building more skills and executing more skills in a match than players that eschew the skill of pushing. Why exclude pushing and junk balling from the skills and tools at your disposal? I've found these much more useful than the overhead backhand cross court or the two handed backhand.
As I've aged, I find most sports more fun if I adapt my strategy to how well my body is executing rather than base my satisfaction mostly on what my body is doing. My body lets me down more and more. The challenge is how to play well in spite of those limitations.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
My original post was not to bash. I take full responsibility for not beating them as it’s my fault. I have just played some people who just camp at the baseline and lob back every ball with zero pace, spin or placement. That’s the play style they have chosen to use, so was asking if that is fun to do.
Tell that to all the 4.5 players this guy has beat.
J
joohan
Guest
I disagree. Watched Horacio Zeballos barely make an error vs Rafa and still got smoked. In one set, he even made 100% of his first serves. So it's definitely not as simple as your last sentence suggests...the more you're going up in levels, the less so.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I'm not sure pushing is a skill. It's a strategy. And it's a formidable one when playing an inconsistent player. But I don't think it particularly builds any skills, just endurance.
Admittedly, higher level pushers do need to hit better quality shots and have skills at something. The Most Exhausting Player can hit cut slices to any spot on the court reliably. He also has good footwork. His play isn't merely bunted moonballs to the mid court.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
Pushing isn't just a button you flip. It's a complex combination of decision and shot making to execute those decisions. In my pushing, I seldom try and hit winners, but I am targeting areas of the court on each shot focused on some priority of goals: moving opponent side to side, moving opponent front to back, tempting them to the net, tempting them to try specific low percentage winners, hitting a lot to their backhand, trying to catch them in no man's land, setting them up for a drop shot. The only fixed feature is trying to only hit high percentage shots (low UE rate) at the cost of not getting too aggressive for winners. Balancing all the factors well is a mental skill - not a physical skill, but it requires rapid and complex mental problem solving.
gebruikershaes
Rookie
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
Ben is not a pusher and he is on TT btw. He played smart and is employing different strategy to make his opponent fail and beat with their weakness which is still very common in most 4.0-4.5 range
gebruikershaes
Rookie
If that guy with the white cap is not a pusher, I don't know who is. Regardless of the strategy if someone pushes the ball over the net instead of swinging at it, he or she is a pusher. That's exactly what this guy is doing, pushing. The definition is in the name.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
Ben didn’t push the ball and make a slow moon all that goes to the center predictable place. He sets up, pull his opponent left and right forward and backwards make them uncomfortable and hit difficult shots. He slices, add top spins, side spins, etc. he observes and make the right decision that he can make to disrupt his opponent play style.
that’s very different from those who actually just push the ball with incomplete swing that goes to the center of the court that their only offense is to make ball bounce higher.
if in your mind tennis is only about topspin rallies then you haven’t seen everything yet.
xFullCourtTenniSx
Hall of Fame
If your strategy loses to your opponent, and you can't change your strategy to a winning, you deserve to lose. Doesn't matter whether the strategy was ball bashing, getting more balls into play, playing the net, targeting the backhand, or whatever else.
If you're mad that they're pulling you out of your comfort zone, competition might not be for you.
If you're mad that they're pulling you out of your comfort zone, competition might not be for you.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I think it is. I've pushed points before when it seemed the wise thing to do. It's just a conscious decision to hit high percentage shots until your opponent makes an error.
I would not call that "pushing". Anything that requires precise placement isn't high percentage and takes skill. Drop shots, targeting the BH, alternating corners. All mid to low percentage play. At our club we call that having a "soft game" but never call these people "pushers". At intermediate levels, pushers just get balls back high over the net and into the middle of the court. Over and over.
I used to publicly hate pushers, but over the last few years and as I've worked myself up to 4.0 I've realized I am a pusher. I'd like to consider myself more of a counter puncher because I do use power and put balls away when the opportunity presents itself. I also suck at lobbing so I don't junk ball, it's more that I don't go out and just completely overpower anyone unless they're clearly below my level.
gebruikershaes
Rookie
The trajectory of the ball has nothing to do with it. Neither do his tactics. He has incomplete strokes with practically no back swing. It's looks more like a badminton strike, which with a tennis racquet becomes a push because of the weight of the racquet. Now I'm not saying pushing is bad or that he should not do it. It just makes me uncomfortable to watch and let alone play such a guy.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Your self-description doesn't align with a pure pusher, IMO: you use power and are aggressive enough to attack when it makes sense. A pure pusher would tend to shy away from those.
My 2 recommendations:
- Forget about labels; embrace the style that best fits your mindset and athleticism [Annacone said it's critical to know yourself as a player and as an athlete] and you will achieve optimal results
- Learn to lob
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Misha Zverev [Alexander's older brother] has what I call a "zero backswing forehand"; he beat Murray at the AO in 2017.
Yes, Misha's an outlier [I can't find anyone else with this short of a backswing]; however, it does show that length of backswing is not proportional to stroke quality.
MEP's strokes may be "incomplete" since he doesn't hit TS but the fact that he has a winning record at 4.5 says that incomplete strokes hasn't stopped him from climbing to the top of recreational tennis [say, the 95th percentile]. What does that say about the drawbacks of having incomplete strokes?
Also, you haven't commented on all of his strengths: consistency, athleticism, ability to defend, patience, etc. Those are all factors as well as stroke quality.
@SystemicAnomaly: would you agree?
Does it make you uncomfortable because you believe you would have a hard time against him because he would expose your weaknesses? That's certainly how I would feel if I stepped on the court with him: I would know he's not going to donate any points, that he's going to make me move and hit from uncomfortable places, and he's going to force me to take control of the point.
I would welcome the chance to play such a challenging opponent [as a fellow 4.5, albeit without his impressive record]: it would test my skills in ways that my usual opponents do not.
BTW: your original post used "frustrated" and "angry", not "uncomfortable". Big difference.
I appreciate it. You're right, I know my athleticism will get me farther than most of my opponents so I force my opponents to truly beat me. At singles state in late 2019 pretty much every match I won the first set 7-6 then blew them away in the second set because they were exhausted.
Yeah, I really do need to learn to lob. It's going to be the biggest inhibitor to me getting to 4.5
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
"Singles state" meaning HS championships?
@OnTheLine can provide a testimonial on the value of the lob.
It's really not that hard to learn: if you already can hit a BH slice [use a Continental grip], you just need to modify the swing path, racquet face angle, and ball trajectory. While that might seem like a lot, you can do progressions: start out hitting a regular slice and then start altering variables. You'll find that as you change one, the others will naturally tend to change too. If you don't, you will hit long.
To use a golf analogy, think of moving from a 2 iron to a pitching wedge in stages. The 2 iron has a low trajectory and moves relatively quickly towards its destination; a pitching wedge has a high trajectory and moves relatively slowly.
Hit a hundred and you should have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done. And you can do this solo with self-feeds. Even better if you have a very high wall to hit against.
Then progress to working with a partner: lobbing every ball might get boring for him so maybe do a normal rally and every 5th shot or so, lob. If you can get it high or deep, that's good enough to neutralize just about anyone at 4.0 and even many at 4.5. If you can do both, you're golden.
FH might be more difficult because not everyone slices much with the FH.
As one old saying goes, "In tennis you need a nice hard drive and a nice soft lob."
For example:
