Is it possible for a good serve to hit 7’ high on the back fence? Let’s settle this!

Is it physically possible for a good serve to hit 7' high on the back fence?

  • No. It's not physically possible with regulation court dimensions..

    Votes: 4 6.9%

  • I'm skeptical, but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Votes: 15 25.9%

  • Guys like Isner and Roddick can do it, but not possible for a TT poster.

    Votes: 27 46.6%

  • Any decent server can do it.

    Votes: 12 20.7%
  • Total voters
    58
Yeah, it may be possible, but I think people are being a bit blase about how doable this is...I mean 7' is tagging Shaq on the top of the head while he's standing against the backboard.

Let's use Memphis as one point of reference; backboard low, crowd in tight. I don't see people getting beaned in the face, and that board is what? Just over 5 feet high? (ballkids are taller than the fence).

Roddick vs Raonic - Memphis

So 7ft is clearly a stretch...unless altitude, cracks, warps in the space-time continuum etc
 
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Thud and blunder said:
He does a mean Rajeev Ram impersonation, though...
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Well, Pete changed his last name to Sampras because Rajeev was known as Rampras, and even copied Rajeev's serve exactly. I like that Pete is also balding the same way as Rampras.

Seriously, I saw Rampras practice against Bopanna at IW, and the guy is taller than you think. He has a fantastic 1 handed BHand serves and volleys (which Pete copied of course). To think he is a nobody in the ATP singles world shows you the level of these guys.
 
arche3 said:
I'm always wondering who in the audience is a ttw member at the us open when I go. I saw the lock and roll guy filming last year and was all psched I saw someone I knew from here. I want to see Toly at a match telling delpo his toss is wrong lol.
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Reported.............
 
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Bhagi Katbamna said:
I think he was being modest. I've seen him bounce a second serve into the crowd.
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Possibly. But I got the impression that Isner thought the question was absurd.

These were the practice courts at Indian Wells. The ones closer to the road and we were standing up above him watching him hit toward the road.

I've watched Roanic practice there too. He was working flat serves and they weren't hitting too high up on the boards. Karlovic has had the most ball height on the 2nd serve I've seen, but now I'm not sure I've seen them hit 7' up on the backstop.

At the moment, I don't think it is impossible, but I think it is quite rare.
 
sureshs said:
toly:

Can you do an energy analysis? Kinetic and potential energies when the ball hits the fence, add the energy lost due to bounce, add the energy lost in air drag, then calculate the energy required at serve impact to produce that energy, and determine if human anatomy will allow that from the swing speed and the mass of the frame. In other words, reverse engineer from the 7 feet requirement, but you need to assume if the ball is falling or rising at the fence, and what kind of speed it has.
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Rod Cross already analyzed different serves in article “Physics of the Tennis Kick Serve”. Here are some data from the article.

8. SERVE PARAMETERS

2vack6f.jpg


“Figure 11 — Height of the ball as it crosses the baseline, vs serve angle A in (a) and serve speed V in (b), (c) and (d). The angle A is the serve angle in degrees below the horizontal. The ball spin is either 3000, 4000 or 5000 rpm, as labeled, and the spin axis is tilted at either 20° or 30°, as labeled. A larger tilt angle means more topspin. If the serve angle is too small or the serve speed is too high, the ball will land long (beyond the serve line). If the serve angle is too large or the serve speed is too low, the ball will not clear the net. It was assumed that the ball is served down the center line for these calculations.”

So we can see that with ball’s speed from 80 mph to 120 mph and spin below 5000 rpm, a ball’s height at baseline doesn't exceed 5.5’.
 
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Power Player said:
It blows me away at how many people don't get that the less you overload your brain, the better you play.
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This can be correct for people with very small brains, but according to computer science it is not so simple to overload good computer/brain by using simple tasks. :confused:
 
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How tall was the back wall when Andy Roddick served a ball that hit Czech President Vaclav Klaus in the chest who was sitting in the first row at a Davis Cup match in 2007?
 
toly said:
This can be correct for people with very small brains, but according to computer science it is not so simple to overload good computer/brain by using simple tasks. :confused:
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Ooo look, someone got all hurt and decided to get personal.

I would venture a guess that your brain is no bigger than mine, as you apparently can't even hit a tennis ball properly without consulting a manual.

It's funny how some people get so mad about things and then claim the person they are arguing with is stupid. It is delicious irony really. As are the many "confused" smiley faces you have to type out on a regular basis. You seem to be easily confused by a lot of simple concepts for someone of such high intelligence.
 
toly said:
Rod Cross already analyzed different serves in article “Physics of the Tennis Kick Serve”. Here are some data from the article.

8. SERVE PARAMETERS

2vack6f.jpg


“Figure 11 — Height of the ball as it crosses the baseline, vs serve angle A in (a) and serve speed V in (b), (c) and (d). The angle A is the serve angle in degrees below the horizontal. The ball spin is either 3000, 4000 or 5000 rpm, as labeled, and the spin axis is tilted at either 20° or 30°, as labeled. A larger tilt angle means more topspin. If the serve angle is too small or the serve speed is too high, the ball will land long (beyond the serve line). If the serve angle is too large or the serve speed is too low, the ball will not clear the net. It was assumed that the ball is served down the center line for these calculations.”

So we can see that with ball’s speed from 80 mph to 120 mph and spin below 5000 rpm, a ball’s height at baseline doesn't exceed 5.5’.
Click to expand...

Do you know what that means for the height at 21 feet behind? Is there enough velocity in the ball to rise from 5.5 feet to 7 feet over a length of 21 feet?
 
arche3 said:
Can't you just figure it out? You keep asking toly for everything.
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No, it requires some analytical skills to make an educated estimate of the vertical and horizontal speeds of the ball at the baseline. If it was simple, I would have asked you.
 
sureshs said:
No, it requires some analytical skills to make an educated estimate of the vertical and horizontal speeds of the ball at the baseline. If it was simple, I would have asked you.
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So your one of those people toly talks about then. Carry on. It would not be that hard to do sureshs. I thought you were some kind of genius? Your always calling others ignorant. Figure it out. Prove me wrong. And please don't report me. Whatever that means. ?
 
Power Player said:
Ooo look, someone got all hurt and decided to get personal.

I would venture a guess that your brain is no bigger than mine, as you apparently can't even hit a tennis ball properly without consulting a manual.

It's funny how some people get so mad about things and then claim the person they are arguing with is stupid. It is delicious irony really. As are the many "confused" smiley faces you have to type out on a regular basis. You seem to be easily confused by a lot of simple concepts for someone of such high intelligence.
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It was just bad joke. I apologize. I should never have said that.
Yesterday was very big Russian holiday about World War II and I overloaded my brain by using too much Stoli. :(
 
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toly said:
It was just bad joke. I apologize. I should never have said that.
Yesterday was very big Russian holiday about World War II and I overloaded my brain by using too much Stoli. :(
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"Victory Day remains one of the biggest Russian holidays. It’s a clean indicator of Germany’s final surrender to the Soviet Union in 1945."
 
Ivo Karlovic used to train at an academy I went to, I saw him hit more than one over the fence (clay btw). Regulation courts.
 
As usual, how high was the fence?
I already mentioned I sometimes get to play doubles with a former No2 or so at CalPoly, who is 6'5" tall and can serve as fast as any I've seen. He doesn't play much tennis, preferring basketball now that he's 27 or so. His first flats don't go in much. His second twist and top/slices go 6'6" high at the baseline....BUT, they drop considerably before hitting the backwall because I've allowed a few to slide past when I call them "out", and turn around to look for the bounce.
What have I seen? Colin Dibley's and VictorAmaya's, some of the Wilson team in the '70's, from about 12' off to the side of the backwall they were serving into. NONE went nearly over 6' high at the backfence. Lots went head high to me, and I"m 5'11", but head high can be eye heights, not always top of the head.
 
db10s said:
Ivo Karlovic used to train at an academy I went to, I saw him hit more than one over the fence (clay btw). Regulation courts.
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Clay can give strange bounces. That's sort of like my serve that almost cleared a back fence because of hitting a pebble. Jo11y used to have a video of an indoor clay court serve hopping over the rear curtain (though his opponent may have ticked it).

I think it is best to look for a video of this happening on a traditional hard court. I think it is probably possible, but I agree with Lee that it is quite rare.
 
toly said:
It was just bad joke. I apologize. I should never have said that.
Yesterday was very big Russian holiday about World War II and I overloaded my brain by using too much Stoli. :(
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No problem. I will overload my brain with some scotch tonight to even things out.
 
I've just done some trigonometry on different situations in which this could occur, and the only POSSIBLE way is to have a contact height very high, at least around 8 feet, have a very very fast serve so the ball does not arc after it bounces, and have a perfect serve where the ball lands as short in the box as possible without hitting the net. So in short, for as far as human abilities and chance go, I do not believe this to be possible.
 
caltiger123 said:
I've just done some trigonometry on different situations in which this could occur, and the only POSSIBLE way is to have a contact height very high, at least around 8 feet, have a very very fast serve so the ball does not arc after it bounces, and have a perfect serve where the ball lands as short in the box as possible without hitting the net.
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An 8ft contact point is actually low btw. Could you show me your math? I'm interested in how you arrived at your conclusion (mathematically).
 
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I hit some serves outdoors tonight, mostly working on improving my arm strength, but also experimenting with different types of trajectories.

My balls were half-dead, so didn't come close to the 7-ft mark, but did clear 5 feet a few times out of 100. Interestingly, the highest bounces on the wall fell into two categories.

Category 1: Lots of pace, moderate spin, still rising when it hits the wall.

Category 2: Medium pace, maximum spin, dives down sharply into the box, then bounces high, peaks around 7-ft, but drops to 4-5 feet by the time it hits the fence.

My gut feeling is that switching to new balls will have a bigger impact on the serves in category 2, and that the "medium pace, maximum rpm" type serve will have a better chance to reach 7 feet (at least with my current skill set, where I seem to be able to get great arm speed, but having trouble duplicating the lower body forward thrust of my youth).

I also strung up my 27.5" O3 Red with 15L tournament nylon at 50 lbs to create a rocket launcher (weighted up like my the Blade in my sig). I could definitely get more pace with it than with my Blade, and some nasty action, but because the stringbed was less spin-friendly, I wasn't getting bounces any higher than with my Blade with kevlar/Zx becasue I couldn't get the ball to bend as sharply.
 
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I think I have a decent kick/twist serve it should bounce around 5'5 to 6'0 feet (highly dependent on the court surface) high when it reaches my opponent at the baseline.......I think a very small percentage of people besides the pro's or really advanced tall players over 6'5 feet with a NTRP 5.5-6.0 that can serve a kick serve and still have it hit the backfence 7 feet high and wha...21-23 feet away from the baseline.......I have seen Raonic and Roddicks kicks.....sheesh.....mine is 100 years too early to be compared to theirs.......if you one of those blessed people who can do this.....I am extremely jealous :-)
 
travlerajm said:
I hit some serves outdoors tonight, mostly working on improving my arm strength, but also experimenting with different types of trajectories.

My balls were half-dead, so didn't come close to the 7-ft mark, but did clear 5 feet a few times out of 100. Interestingly, the highest bounces on the wall fell into two categories.

Category 1: Lots of pace, moderate spin, still rising when it hits the wall.

Category 2: Medium pace, maximum spin, dives down sharply into the box, then bounces high, peaks around 7-ft, but drops to 4-5 feet by the time it hits the fence.

My gut feeling is that switching to new balls will have a bigger impact on the serves in category 2, and that the "medium pace, maximum rpm" type serve will have a better chance to reach 7 feet (at least with my current skill set, where I seem to be able to get great arm speed, but having trouble duplicating the lower body forward thrust of my youth).

I also strung up my 27.5" O3 Red with 15L tournament nylon at 50 lbs to create a rocket launcher (weighted up like my the Blade in my sig). I could definitely get more pace with it than with my Blade, and some nasty action, but because the stringbed was less spin-friendly, I wasn't getting bounces any higher than with my Blade with kevlar/Zx becasue I couldn't get the ball to bend as sharply.
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I've found those Category 1 type serves to be the ones that land consistently the highest on the back fence
 
6' is no really hardship.
It's the final foot that is not possible to achieve.
On that vid, we don't know the dimension specifics of the dark backboard. If someone would care to MEASURE the low and highs of that backboard, then, end of discussion.
"I think I've seen". "I've heard". "It must be possible because".... none are conclusive evidence ANYONE, even ONCE, can hit an IN serve and bounce it 7' high at the backboard.
At the baseline, it's possible.
 
No hardship for a good server who is tall in hot weather.
I mentioned a few times I had served 5' high bouncers on hot days, new surfaced courts at GoldenGatePark's court 1. Railing is 5' high.
My serve is nothing, and was nothing, compared to the top players or big guys.
 
You know I claim "100" mph now for my first serves? No chance a bounce higher than 4' at our cement courts.
You know some of you will doubt my serve speeds?
Last week, if you would check on the travel section, I got to play with a couple of TW guys, RobFL and Deepak. You will NEVER see them doubt I can serve as hard as I claim, and both with vouch my serve is for real. RobFL is a 4.5, a real 4.5, while Deepak is a 4.0.
 
I watched (standing on the court, during a practice session) Kevin Anderson do it routinely at the Nashville ATP Challenger event several years back, before he 'made the big show'. :) Also stood courtside while Dr. Ivo practiced in Indy a few summers back. I am 6'2" and the balls Anderson was serving were hitting well above my head. Not sure it was EXACTLY 7' or more, but pretty impressive either way. :) I wonder what that kick serve Fed hits in the ad court might 'peak at' before turning back Earthwards? :) BHBH
 
BounceHitBounceHit said:
I watched (standing on the court, during a practice session) Kevin Anderson do it routinely at the Nashville ATP Challenger event several years back, before he 'made the big show'. :) Also stood courtside while Dr. Ivo practiced in Indy a few summers back. I am 6'2" and the balls Anderson was serving were hitting well above my head. Not sure it was EXACTLY 7' or more, but pretty impressive either way. :) I wonder what that kick serve Fed hits in the ad court might 'peak at' before turning back Earthwards? :) BHBH
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It has to be 7 feet high when 21 feet behind
 
BounceHitBounceHit said:
I watched (standing on the court, during a practice session) Kevin Anderson do it routinely at the Nashville ATP Challenger event several years back, before he 'made the big show'. :) Also stood courtside while Dr. Ivo practiced in Indy a few summers back. I am 6'2" and the balls Anderson was serving were hitting well above my head. Not sure it was EXACTLY 7' or more, but pretty impressive either way. :) I wonder what that kick serve Fed hits in the ad court might 'peak at' before turning back Earthwards? :) BHBH
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Isn't Anderson almost as tall as Isner? I think that it is physically possible for guys who are as tall as basketball centers or forwards, 6'8" or taller, but it is much less clear that average or even tall 6'2"-6'5" tennis professionals can do it very easily.

I think I've seen Karlovic do it in practice, but I checked my video and I didn't catch him clearly doing it. As I recall, he almost got us with a few serves as we sat just above the backstop during a match - the backstop was probably at about 8' height and perhaps deeper than 23'.
 
Not 7 foot up the back fence, but I recently hit with a guy with a good
kick serve. On clay, it often kicks 7 feet or higher by the time it reaches
the baseline. I'm not sure whether to move in and take it early or
move way behind the baseline to take it at a lower height after it drops
a little bit. Moving back would make me susceptible to his wide serves,
though and probably occasionally get aced.
 
If you move back, you're also susceptible to his moving to net position, with you back 8' behind the baseline.
I"ve played several guys who could kick it about 6'6" at the baseline, but the ball is not going that fast and will drop at the backwall.
Still don't believe anyone can actually bounce it 7' high at the backboard, 21' behind the baseline, unless the ball hit something on the court.
If you look closely at huge serving videos, their serves are going down when they reach the backboard.
 
There is a guy I play sometimes who is the biggest server I have ever been on a court with. This chap used to be a top 200 ATP pro, is a tall, strong kind of guy and is still very fit.

His biggest serve down the T is dropping by the time it reaches the back fence on a normal court and hits at about 4 - 5 feet up.

We put a radar gun on Andrew (his name) and he regularly gets into the 120s, so if he can't do it..

(yes, returning his serve is a miserable experience!)

Of course, the 4.5s in ALTA are a different matter, I'm sure their second serves are at least as fast as that :)
 
sureshs said:
It has to be 7 feet high when 21 feet behind
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I understand. :) I was standing at the back of the court, near the curtain. The serves were striking well above the level of my head. And the curtain is at least 21 feet beyond the baseline at Vandy, maybe more. I can measure this week if any are keenly interested. ;) BHBH
 
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sureshs said:
Are these serves good? How come we never see them on TV in a real match?
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The serves were good. I think you do see them from time to time in real matches. It's just tough to estimate with precision just how high up on the back curtain a ball will strike. The walls aren't 'marked' with a scale or anything. That's why the experience of standing on court at or near the curtain was so revealing. :) I didn't 'measure them' either, obviously......and really don't care.........I'm just reporting what I witnessed. :) BHBH
 
any videos of pros serving where the ball hits the back curtain above the umpire's head?

if we dont' have examples of these then 7 feet sounds high...
 
As with the Stergios thread, there are limitations.
6' high at the backboard is often done by the better servers, abrasive courts, and bouncy balls on a hot day.
The final foot is elusive.
 
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